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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We don't remember that.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I get very irritated by modern hymnbooks that change a few of the words in traditional hymns that I have been singing for 60 years +. Hymn book editors seem to love messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
So you want to perpetuate anti-semitism?
Forgive my ignorance, but I wasn't aware of any anti-semitic overtones in Advent hymns.
see
[ 10. August 2016, 10:19: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The second verse is often read to be describing the deeply wailing reaction of the Jews who killed Christ at the second coming. I don't take that reading myself, but that's the argument.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The second verse is often read to be describing the deeply wailing reaction of the Jews who killed Christ at the second coming. I don't take that reading myself, but that's the argument.
Even if it's there, that does not mean that it is anti-semitic. It simply shows a realisation with the deepest regret and repentance for what they did. Similarly, I don't think much of the attempt in the link Leo gives to make the hymns anti-semitic.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I rather thought the argument was that we have all rejected Christ, and therefore have all nailed Him to the cross, and we all need to repent. YMMV.
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Forward the New Republic
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I rather thought the argument was that we have all rejected Christ, and therefore have all nailed Him to the cross, and we all need to repent. YMMV.
That was what I had always understood.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Like I say the reading I'm giving isn't what I think - but others see in it echos of the Jewish Deicide. Others might have counter-arguments but that's the view of those thinking the hymn is anti-Semitic.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
One verse from a Wesley hymn doesn't make all Advent hymns anti-semitic.
However on consideration the line:
"Deeply wailing shall their true Messiah see"
could quite easily be so. In Matthew "wailing and gnashing of teet" is usually taken to mean "danmed". So it could be interpreted to mean Jews will be eternally damned and reaise Jesus was the true Messiah after all.
However as an enthusiast for James Alison, leo should realise that the tendency to condemn victims is a universal human tendency, not uniquely Jewish.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
From Zechariah 12:
9"And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.…
Why should we deny the Jews their Messiah when he comes?
[ 10. August 2016, 21:24: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I rather thought the argument was that we have all rejected Christ, and therefore have all nailed Him to the cross, and we all need to repent. YMMV.
That's always been how I've read it. Hard to see anything anti-semitic in there.
As to Mudfrog: our belief does not deny that of jewish people, any more than their belief can deny ours.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Is it 'their true Messiah' or 'the true Messiah' in Wesley's original? In A&M Revised it's 'the true Messiah' and that's what I've always sung.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It probably is "the true Messiah" and I misremembered. However it makes little difference to my argument. The Jews got it wrong and in hell they will see that.
I don't actually agree that the hymn is necessarily anti-semitic since the point is not that the Jews condemned Christ but that we would too in all probability.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
When I was a school chaplain, I used to put "Christ triumphant" down at least once every half term for no other reason than I like it and if you have the job of choosing hymns you can jolly well choose your own favourites every now and then. I swear that every single time we sang it the HM would say to me as we left Chapel "Do we know that hymn?"
The upside was that whenever I did use a hymn we hadn't sung before (which meant she automatically wouldn't like it) and she queried it, I could say in surprised tones, "Oh yes! We've sung it many times!" and she'd believe me.
Other people's forgetfulness is but an opportunity...
When I looked after the choir at my old parish there were many good things, but this trust was not one of them.
We sang the same setting of the Anaphora week in, week out, regardless of time or season. There was a second setting that I had included in the choir book but we never used it, and I was determined that we would have at least some variety. So we rehearsed the second setting at one rehearsal. Then again at another. Then I sent an email to the choir letting them all know that we would be singing it at the Liturgy on a particular Sunday.
The response? At the beginning of the Anaphora there was confusion as those gathered around the choir desk sang the one I had turned to while those at the other choir desk sang something different. At the conversation about this after the Liturgy, it was voiced that using the other setting had been a complete surprise, and all but one were adamant that they had never seen or heard it before.
People's memories do funny things.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It probably is "the true Messiah" and I misremembered. However it makes little difference to my argument. The Jews got it wrong and in hell they will see that.
I don't actually agree that the hymn is necessarily anti-semitic since the point is not that the Jews condemned Christ but that we would too in all probability.
Oh, I agree with you. But there is a slight difference in nuance between 'the' and 'their'.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It probably is "the true Messiah" and I misremembered. However it makes little difference to my argument. The Jews got it wrong and in hell they will see that.
I don't actually agree that the hymn is necessarily anti-semitic since the point is not that the Jews condemned Christ but that we would too in all probability.
With all due respect, that is nonsense.
The hymn is telling us that when Jesus returns the Jews will recognise that is Jesus is their 'true Messiah' after all -and they will then be saved, they will have the covenant restored to them.
The Scriptural foundation for that is from Zechariah 12 and 13:
quote:
Ch 12
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,
13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives,
14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Ch 13
1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
So, when they realise that the one they pierced was the Messiah, they will be redeemed.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
who were 'unvisited, unblessed'?
Shores of the utmost West. Surely not an anti-Semitic reference to the West?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Romans 1, HEBREws 1, LumEn Gentium?
Romans 11 v 25ff
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
In other words, and taking those verses in the context of the previous chapters, the Israelites have temporarily lost the blessing whilst the Gentiles are grafted in but they will be saved by mercy, grace and the irrevocable covenant to Isaac when they recognise their deliverer when he appears.
That's what the line in the hymn is on about.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Whilst they weren't into the kind of 'dispensationalism' that Mudfrog tends to favour, Christians in the 17th and 18th centuries would have had the expectation that the Jews would be converted at the end of the age or close to the return of Christ - hence 'until the conversion of the Jews' used by Andrew Marvell in the poem 'To His Coy Mistress' to indicate a potentially long period of time.
One of the reasons the Puritans re-admitted the Jews to England during the Commonwealth, apparently, was to facilitate the preaching of the Gospel to them in order to hasten the return of Christ.
So, Venbede, Mudfrog is right in the way he understands those verses in the old Advent hymn - although that doesn't mean that Charles Wesley's eschatology was identical to Mudfrog's.
'They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced ...'
The 'deeply wailing' may not imply eternal damnation but the realisation that they had crucified their Messiah during his first advent ...
However, it's a hymn, a work of art, not a theological treatise so it's important not to put undue weight on poetic licence and so forth.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Gamaliel
Except for the R W Dale quote that he did not care who wrote the churches theology as long as he wrote the hymns. Also, Isaac Watts personal theology is decidedly different from that of his hymns. He wrote his hymns to reflect the theology of the tradition* he was in. If you want to know what liberal English 18th Century dissenters held then look at the hymns of Isaac Watts.
Jengie
*yeah tradition, the lines between then and now are badly twisted and further back is more complicated. The URC claims him, but it is debatable.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I used to attend an FIEC church in Southampton called Above Bar Church (it's called that because it's on the road to the north of the ancient Bargate).
Now Watts was a Sotonian; there is a Watts Park and the bells of the Civic Centre close to the church ring out "O God our help" in ages past every four hours.
I believe that Isaac Watts, an Independent, attended an Above Bar Chapel; however I don't think it has any relation whatsoever with the present church which dates from the Victorian period and may have originally been called called "Albion Chapel" although I'm not sure (it was rebuilt around 1980).
Nevertheless the Minister had no compunction in "claiming" Isaac Watts as their own. Whenever we sung "When I survey" - which we did at evening communion every month - he would always remind us that the hymn "was possibly written in this very city". (There was another church which could, I think, claim a slightly stronger link with Watts).
[ 15. August 2016, 15:50: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, Venbede, Mudfrog is right in the way he understands those verses in the old Advent hymn
Glad to hear that. In the past I had criticised leo's assertion that the hymn was anti-semitic. In fairness to him, I was pointing out something I'd just realised that supported his view.
But as I said, I don't think it is anti semitic in iteself.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Robin
Shipmate
# 71
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
When I was a school chaplain, I used to put "Christ triumphant" down at least once every half term ... I swear that every single time we sang it the HM would say to me as we left Chapel "Do we know that hymn?"
To be fair, Gutting Power is not the easiest of tunes (The Rector at my old church declined to use it for that reason).
Robin
Posts: 263 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Assuming it was "Guiting Power" and not the original Youth Praise tune.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I believe that Isaac Watts, an Independent, attended an Above Bar Chapel; however I don't think it has any relation whatsoever with the present church which dates from the Victorian period and may have originally been called called "Albion Chapel" although I'm not sure (it was rebuilt around 1980).
Nevertheless the Minister had no compunction in "claiming" Isaac Watts as their own. Whenever we sung "When I survey" - which we did at evening communion every month - he would always remind us that the hymn "was possibly written in this very city". (There was another church which could, I think, claim a slightly stronger link with Watts).
Right guess where the original Above the Bar Congregation ended up! However, here is the real problem. Above the Bar is Isaac Watts' childhood church. His ministry if I recall correctly was largely in London and he ended up Liberal Christian/Unitarian. This suggests to me that the original Above the Bar was English Presbyterian tradition but had a Trinitarian clause in its deeds. I maybe wrong.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
When I lived in Stoke Newington I always assumed Watts wrote his hymns there. In Abney Park Cemetery (burial place of the Booths) there is a hillock described as "Dr Watts' Mound" supposedly where he went for inspiration.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
Yes, the original tune was by Michael Vaughn, arranged by Noel Tredinnick.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Assuming it was "Guiting Power" and not the original Youth Praise tune.
Oh it was definitely always Guiting Power. I wouldn't give the Baughan tune houseroom.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
What a brilliant description! However I must say that tune gets more interesting when you get to the chorus bit: - "Yours the glory and the crown...... the high.... re...-nown...., the eter....nal..... name"
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
Yes, the original tune was by Michael Vaughn, arranged by Noel Tredinnick.
Mutter, mutter autocorrect…
What I meant to say was:
Yes, the original tune was by Michael Baughen, arranged by Noel Tredinnick.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
What a brilliant description! However I must say that tune gets more interesting when you get to the chorus bit: - "Yours the glory and the crown...... the high.... re...-nown...., the eter....nal..... name"
Although not to my usual taste I rather like both the hymn and the tune - in fact, I had no idea it was ever sung to anything else!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Ditto. I like the tune and I've never heard any other. St Paul's Cathedral seemed to do it every time I was there. That was in Michael Baughan's time.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The other thing about the Baughen tune is its very strong resemblance to The Lumberjack Song ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The other thing about the Baughen tune is its very strong resemblance to The Lumberjack Song
Well I'd not noticed the resemblance before so I would hardly call it strong. I do get what you mean though, but its just 5 notes that sound the same, ie the bit of tune that goes with 'hear us as we sing' are the same notes that go with (sus)'-penders and a bra'
Nowhere near as strong a resemblance as that between 'All I once held dear' and 'The Ugly Duckling'! (With that one there are 13 consecutive notes that sound exactly like 'And he went with a quack and a waddle and a quack') ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 19. August 2016, 17:37: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I always find that the signature tune to "The One Show" (BBC) reminds of the theme to Jamie Owens' "Come Together".
That dates me; but even worse is the fact that the third line of "Lead us heavenly Father" takes me straight to the 1960s police series "Softly Softly" (the sequel to "Z Cars").
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
The first line of St Kevin by Sir Arthur Sullivan is a ringer for the beginning of "Into Parliament he must go" from Iolanthe, also by Sullivan. So much so, that I always sing the next line from the operetta in place of the next line from the hymn, because it amuses me and you take what you can get...
I don't imagine it was his intention to mingle his operettas (which he hated) with his hymnody (which he didn't) but there you go.
Come, ye fay-ay-thful, raise the strain...
In.....-to Par-lia-ment he... shall go...
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I can't sing Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken without substituting Tony Hancock's Coughs And Sneezes Spread Diseases.
Decades ago there used to be a charismatic chorus which began Lord Prepare Me To Be A Sanctuary, to which my wife and kids and I used to sing Samuel Wilberforce's If I Were A Cassowary.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I can't sing Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken without substituting Tony Hancock's Coughs And Sneezes Spread Diseases.
I find myself singing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
What a brilliant description! However I must say that tune gets more interesting when you get to the chorus bit: - "Yours the glory and the crown...... the high.... re...-nown...., the eter....nal..... name"
Although not to my usual taste I rather like both the hymn and the tune - in fact, I had no idea it was ever sung to anything else!
I've just had to look up the original tune on YouTube. It isn't for me, personally.
Here is Guiting Power, which is the only tune I've heard used for it until now. It pretty.
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Ditto. I like the tune and I've never heard any other. St Paul's Cathedral seemed to do it every time I was there. That was in Michael Baughan's time.
Thanks to scrump's link I now know what we are talking about. St Paul's only used Guiting Power when Baughan was a canon. That is the only tune I'ever heard.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I can't sing Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken without substituting Tony Hancock's Coughs And Sneezes Spread Diseases.
I find myself singing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles."
With an outstretched arm and a finger under your nose?
My daughter, when young, used to delight in combining a popular take-off of On Top Of Old Smokey, with a Christian chorus which was sung to the same tune:
"I'm glad I'm a Christian / All covered with cheese".
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Hilda of Whitby
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# 7341
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Posted
Then there is the doxology (Praise God from whom all blessings flow), sung to the tune of "Hernando's Hideaway":
"Praise God/from whom/all blessings flow
Praise Him/all crea-/tures here below
Praise Him/above/ye heavenly host
Praise Fa-/ther Son and/ Holy Ghost"
Ole!
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Yes, there are four lines of eight syllables. The fourth line is a bit of a struggle but Long Metre can just about be squeezed into it.
The House of the Rising Sun by the way is Common Metre. So a lot of hymns will fit it. Both Amazing Grace and While shepherds watched do.
[ 21. August 2016, 21:59: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sandemaniac
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# 12829
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Posted
At which point did the Ship turn into I'm Sorry I haven't a Clue?
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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