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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We don't remember that.
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cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
"Praise songs" tend to be irregular in meter, and then you get the worship band on top of it improvising and swooping into various notes, repeating half a chorus, and just generally noodling around... it can be quite difficult the first several times. And I have near-perfect pitch memory. Hate to think what regular folk face.
Ah yes, that sort of thing can certainly make it difficult...not too bad though if the worship band is (at least to begin with) sticking to it as written. Then again, if it's a VERY loud worship band, perhaps it doesn't matter too much, nobody'll probably hear one's making a hash of it anhow! I think it was good in that the church I used to attend did have a mixture of traditional and modern in 'normal services'...communion services, that sort of thing. But then we might have other services such as 'healing' ones or whatever, so music would be chosen appropriately, and there wouldn't be much messing about. We also had an organ, a pianist and a worship group, so we had a variety of ways of expressing the various songs...some are much more suited to organs, some more to guitars and so forth.
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh, and a complaint about last week's service setting because "the words sung by the choir weren't those printed in the service booklet", which the PP dealt with by explaining that, strictly speaking, the words of the Kyrie aren't either since it appears in English but 50% of the time is sung by everyone in Greek: response to that was "that's different".
Sorry, don't get it. How can a congregation follow if the words aren't printed?
I read it to mean that the words were printed in the service booklet but that the choir sang words different from those printed. I'd be amazed if that didn't confuse the congregation.
And yes, the Kyrie is different—it's only three words in Greek, and four or six in English. Still though, why wouldn't it be printed in the service booklet the way it's going to be sung?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Hang on.
I once was in a congregation where the OHP said one thing, the hymnbooks said a second* and the congregation sang a third!
When a friend commented on this to her husband afterwards his comment was "Of course you sing the one you know"
Jengie
*Well it may have been a second and a third as there were two hymnbooks.
[ 07. August 2016, 20:43: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
Ah yes, that sort of thing can certainly make it difficult...not too bad though if the worship band is (at least to begin with) sticking to it as written. Then again, if it's a VERY loud worship band, perhaps it doesn't matter too much, nobody'll probably hear one's making a hash of it anhow! I think it was good in that the church I used to attend did have a mixture of traditional and modern in 'normal services'...communion services, that sort of thing. But then we might have other services such as 'healing' ones or whatever, so music would be chosen appropriately, and there wouldn't be much messing about. We also had an organ, a pianist and a worship group, so we had a variety of ways of expressing the various songs...some are much more suited to organs, some more to guitars and so forth.
Yes, our host congregation has a mix of services too, and one of the Sundays each month is semi "blended" as they put it. So we get a little of everything, including African. Which keeps life interesting!
Unfortunately, the praise bands I've known tend NOT to stick to things as written. IMHO they often attract people who imagine themselves as famous Christian singers, and such people (it only takes one to screw up the whole song!) behave more as if they're giving a concert than as if they are there to enable congregational singing. So we get the unannounced repeats, the weird pitches and timing, and so forth.
My host congregation is more fortunate than many in that our praise band is stuck way in the back of the church, in a balcony, and cannot really be seen. The ones that are easily visible have that much more temptation to behave like rock stars...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
..
Yes, our host congregation has a mix of services too, and one of the Sundays each month is semi "blended" as they put it. So we get a little of everything, including African. Which keeps life interesting!
Unfortunately, the praise bands I've known tend NOT to stick to things as written. IMHO they often attract people who imagine themselves as famous Christian singers, and such people (it only takes one to screw up the whole song!) behave more as if they're giving a concert than as if they are there to enable congregational singing. So we get the unannounced repeats, the weird pitches and timing, and so forth.
My host congregation is more fortunate than many in that our praise band is stuck way in the back of the church, in a balcony, and cannot really be seen. The ones that are easily visible have that much more temptation to behave like rock stars... [/QB][/QUOTE]
Yes, some worship bands can come across like that...but perhaps they might say that they're glorifying God with their talents? I dunno...I'm not talented enough myself to behave like a rock star even if I were tempted, also not outgoing enough. It seems far too much of a responsibility to be in the limelight! Just quietly get on with ones own limitations
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
"Praise songs" tend to be irregular in meter, and then you get the worship band on top of it improvising and swooping into various notes, repeating half a chorus, and just generally noodling around... it can be quite difficult the first several times. And I have near-perfect pitch memory. Hate to think what regular folk face.
Which leads to the service becoming a performance by the band, for the band, with people waiting impatiently in the pews for the noise to end and the worship to begin. Sometimes it doesn't happen.
To revert to the original topic, I was brought up on Wesley hymns and still like them, though I've only once been in a Methodist church in my life. One of the joys of hymns for me is rediscovering an old one with a lively new setting. There's presbyterian church near that's very good at that. Then there are people like Maddy Prior who can make the near-dead rise up and sing. (There are seven Wesley hymns on that CD, all good).
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Hang on.
I once was in a congregation where the OHP said one thing, the hymnbooks said a second* and the congregation sang a third!
When a friend commented on this to her husband afterwards his comment was "Of course you sing the one you know"
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Hang on.
I once was in a congregation where the OHP said one thing, the hymnbooks said a second* and the congregation sang a third!
When a friend commented on this to her husband afterwards his comment was "Of course you sing the one you know"
I get very irritated by modern hymnbooks that change a few of the words in traditional hymns that I have been singing for 60 years +. Hymn book editors seem to love messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
Doxologies are also prone to editorial mangling to replace the Holy Ghost with the Holy Spirit. That inevitably messes up the scansion and the rhyming scheme so we end up with a completely different last verse.
In any case there is a lack of consistency in the updating - some hymns have thee and thy changed to your and yours, but the in the very next hymn the traditional language is retained.
The final straw for me will be "Yours be the glory" - so far I have not come across that particular updating, thank God.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
I sing the proper words quite clearly, proper meaning of course, the words I learnt many years ago. I also often say different words to the modern prayer book.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
When a friend commented on this to her husband afterwards his comment was "Of course you sing the one you know"
But if you don't know the hymn very well you can't do that. Confusion with different versions of the words is an additional barrier to an outsider participating.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I get very irritated by modern hymnbooks that change a few of the words in traditional hymns that I have been singing for 60 years +. Hymn book editors seem to love messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
So you want to perpetuate anti-semitism?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Gwalmachai
I got really fed up with letters to Reform when Rejoice and Sing came out making the same objections as nearly always in the next edition there was a counter letter pointing out that it was a return to the original words. Fiddling with hymn words is not a modern preoccupation and quite a lot of what we learn is already bowdlerized by previous generations.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
I sing the proper words quite clearly, proper meaning of course, the words I learnt many years ago. I also often say different words to the modern prayer book.
The "proper words" -- you mean the ones the previous set of editors thought was right, but not necessarily the original words or words that convey meaning to people today.
When I am unfortunate enough to have to attend a BCP-language service, I try my best to swallow my bile and use the words the congregation is using, even though I find some of them profoundly alienating. I have survived.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
All of us, I am sure, are convinced that the text as we first learned it is the One, True, and Only version. (I know that is true for me!)
For instance, I first learned many of the Wesley and Watts hymns from the 1939(?) Methodist Hymnal. (Here in the US.) As that hymnal was revised changes crept in (or barged in). And then the major revisions of the 1980s made major changes and deletions. So today's younger singers think that THEIR hymnal has the correct, true and only text.
The real problem, it seems to me, other than remembering to read the page in front of me and not relying on memory, is that some of the changes are so BAD, either grammatic butchery to avoid perceived 'sexism' or 'correcting' theological points. And that's not even considering the wholesale elimination of stanzas!
I face these frustrations most every week now, as the abbey where I work uses 'Worship,' and my brain is still wired for 'The Hymnal 1940' and 'The Hymnal 1982.' Sometimes I just have to keep my mouth shut.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Fiddling with hymn words is not a modern preoccupation and quite a lot of what we learn is already bowdlerized by previous generations.
Indeed. Otherwise we'd all be singing "Hark how all the welkin rings" instead of "Hark! The herald angels sing."
Bringing it somewhat back toward the OP and denominational traditions, there are, as other have noticed, those hymns that require care if you're in a church not of your own tribe. Since I was a child, I've sung "Angels we have heard on high/Sweetly singing o'er the plain,/And the mountains in reply/Echoing their joyous strains." I was quite taken aback when, while in college, I launched off by memory and soon realized everyone around me was singing different words: "Angels we have heard on high,/Singing sweetly through the night,/And the mountains in reply/Echoing their brave delight."
It's nothing new.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Fiddling with hymn words is not a modern preoccupation and quite a lot of what we learn is already bowdlerized by previous generations.
Indeed. Otherwise we'd all be singing "Hark how all the welkin rings" instead of "Hark! The herald angels sing."
As it should be. Let not hymns be vehicles of clarity, or the mere plebs may come to understand doctrine. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There is one of Charles Wesley's hymns (I wish I could recall which) which my father refers to the commonly used words as "complete bowdlerized twoddle". He goes on to say that he thinks he knows what theology Charles Wesley's original contained and does not agree with it. I am pretty sure that if I said "but those are the familiar words" his response would be "familiar twoddle is still twoddle".
The changes in any age do not always make for clearer theology.
Jengie
[ 09. August 2016, 20:32: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I get very irritated by modern hymnbooks that change a few of the words in traditional hymns that I have been singing for 60 years +. Hymn book editors seem to love messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
So you want to perpetuate anti-semitism?
Forgive my ignorance, but I wasn't aware of any anti-semitic overtones in Advent hymns.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
It'a a straight take from scripture, but one of the verses of Lo He Comes With Clouds Descending is easily understood as anti-semitic by the sensitive, and needs careful exegesis by those who are not to avoid a number of very unpleasant cultural memories.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I've just looked at a couple of versions - perhaps the second stanza of the one on the Oremus site could be thought anti-semitic, but you'd have to be pretty sensitive to think that.
Then there's this one and I can't see anything at all offensive there. Any clue please?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I get very irritated by modern hymnbooks that change a few of the words in traditional hymns that I have been singing for 60 years +. Hymn book editors seem to love messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
So you want to perpetuate anti-semitism?
Forgive my ignorance, but I wasn't aware of any anti-semitic overtones in Advent hymns.
see
[ 10. August 2016, 10:19: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The second verse is often read to be describing the deeply wailing reaction of the Jews who killed Christ at the second coming. I don't take that reading myself, but that's the argument.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The second verse is often read to be describing the deeply wailing reaction of the Jews who killed Christ at the second coming. I don't take that reading myself, but that's the argument.
Even if it's there, that does not mean that it is anti-semitic. It simply shows a realisation with the deepest regret and repentance for what they did. Similarly, I don't think much of the attempt in the link Leo gives to make the hymns anti-semitic.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I rather thought the argument was that we have all rejected Christ, and therefore have all nailed Him to the cross, and we all need to repent. YMMV.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I rather thought the argument was that we have all rejected Christ, and therefore have all nailed Him to the cross, and we all need to repent. YMMV.
That was what I had always understood.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Like I say the reading I'm giving isn't what I think - but others see in it echos of the Jewish Deicide. Others might have counter-arguments but that's the view of those thinking the hymn is anti-Semitic.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
One verse from a Wesley hymn doesn't make all Advent hymns anti-semitic.
However on consideration the line:
"Deeply wailing shall their true Messiah see"
could quite easily be so. In Matthew "wailing and gnashing of teet" is usually taken to mean "danmed". So it could be interpreted to mean Jews will be eternally damned and reaise Jesus was the true Messiah after all.
However as an enthusiast for James Alison, leo should realise that the tendency to condemn victims is a universal human tendency, not uniquely Jewish.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
From Zechariah 12:
9"And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.…
Why should we deny the Jews their Messiah when he comes?
[ 10. August 2016, 21:24: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I rather thought the argument was that we have all rejected Christ, and therefore have all nailed Him to the cross, and we all need to repent. YMMV.
That's always been how I've read it. Hard to see anything anti-semitic in there.
As to Mudfrog: our belief does not deny that of jewish people, any more than their belief can deny ours.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Is it 'their true Messiah' or 'the true Messiah' in Wesley's original? In A&M Revised it's 'the true Messiah' and that's what I've always sung.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It probably is "the true Messiah" and I misremembered. However it makes little difference to my argument. The Jews got it wrong and in hell they will see that.
I don't actually agree that the hymn is necessarily anti-semitic since the point is not that the Jews condemned Christ but that we would too in all probability.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
When I was a school chaplain, I used to put "Christ triumphant" down at least once every half term for no other reason than I like it and if you have the job of choosing hymns you can jolly well choose your own favourites every now and then. I swear that every single time we sang it the HM would say to me as we left Chapel "Do we know that hymn?"
The upside was that whenever I did use a hymn we hadn't sung before (which meant she automatically wouldn't like it) and she queried it, I could say in surprised tones, "Oh yes! We've sung it many times!" and she'd believe me.
Other people's forgetfulness is but an opportunity...
When I looked after the choir at my old parish there were many good things, but this trust was not one of them.
We sang the same setting of the Anaphora week in, week out, regardless of time or season. There was a second setting that I had included in the choir book but we never used it, and I was determined that we would have at least some variety. So we rehearsed the second setting at one rehearsal. Then again at another. Then I sent an email to the choir letting them all know that we would be singing it at the Liturgy on a particular Sunday.
The response? At the beginning of the Anaphora there was confusion as those gathered around the choir desk sang the one I had turned to while those at the other choir desk sang something different. At the conversation about this after the Liturgy, it was voiced that using the other setting had been a complete surprise, and all but one were adamant that they had never seen or heard it before.
People's memories do funny things.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It probably is "the true Messiah" and I misremembered. However it makes little difference to my argument. The Jews got it wrong and in hell they will see that.
I don't actually agree that the hymn is necessarily anti-semitic since the point is not that the Jews condemned Christ but that we would too in all probability.
Oh, I agree with you. But there is a slight difference in nuance between 'the' and 'their'.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It probably is "the true Messiah" and I misremembered. However it makes little difference to my argument. The Jews got it wrong and in hell they will see that.
I don't actually agree that the hymn is necessarily anti-semitic since the point is not that the Jews condemned Christ but that we would too in all probability.
With all due respect, that is nonsense.
The hymn is telling us that when Jesus returns the Jews will recognise that is Jesus is their 'true Messiah' after all -and they will then be saved, they will have the covenant restored to them.
The Scriptural foundation for that is from Zechariah 12 and 13:
quote:
Ch 12
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,
13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives,
14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Ch 13
1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
So, when they realise that the one they pierced was the Messiah, they will be redeemed.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
messing about with Advent hymns in particular. I know most of these hymns by heart so I sing the traditonal version regardless of what is printed in the book.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
who were 'unvisited, unblessed'?
Shores of the utmost West. Surely not an anti-Semitic reference to the West?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Romans 1, HEBREws 1, LumEn Gentium?
Romans 11 v 25ff
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
In other words, and taking those verses in the context of the previous chapters, the Israelites have temporarily lost the blessing whilst the Gentiles are grafted in but they will be saved by mercy, grace and the irrevocable covenant to Isaac when they recognise their deliverer when he appears.
That's what the line in the hymn is on about.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Whilst they weren't into the kind of 'dispensationalism' that Mudfrog tends to favour, Christians in the 17th and 18th centuries would have had the expectation that the Jews would be converted at the end of the age or close to the return of Christ - hence 'until the conversion of the Jews' used by Andrew Marvell in the poem 'To His Coy Mistress' to indicate a potentially long period of time.
One of the reasons the Puritans re-admitted the Jews to England during the Commonwealth, apparently, was to facilitate the preaching of the Gospel to them in order to hasten the return of Christ.
So, Venbede, Mudfrog is right in the way he understands those verses in the old Advent hymn - although that doesn't mean that Charles Wesley's eschatology was identical to Mudfrog's.
'They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced ...'
The 'deeply wailing' may not imply eternal damnation but the realisation that they had crucified their Messiah during his first advent ...
However, it's a hymn, a work of art, not a theological treatise so it's important not to put undue weight on poetic licence and so forth.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Gamaliel
Except for the R W Dale quote that he did not care who wrote the churches theology as long as he wrote the hymns. Also, Isaac Watts personal theology is decidedly different from that of his hymns. He wrote his hymns to reflect the theology of the tradition* he was in. If you want to know what liberal English 18th Century dissenters held then look at the hymns of Isaac Watts.
Jengie
*yeah tradition, the lines between then and now are badly twisted and further back is more complicated. The URC claims him, but it is debatable.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I used to attend an FIEC church in Southampton called Above Bar Church (it's called that because it's on the road to the north of the ancient Bargate).
Now Watts was a Sotonian; there is a Watts Park and the bells of the Civic Centre close to the church ring out "O God our help" in ages past every four hours.
I believe that Isaac Watts, an Independent, attended an Above Bar Chapel; however I don't think it has any relation whatsoever with the present church which dates from the Victorian period and may have originally been called called "Albion Chapel" although I'm not sure (it was rebuilt around 1980).
Nevertheless the Minister had no compunction in "claiming" Isaac Watts as their own. Whenever we sung "When I survey" - which we did at evening communion every month - he would always remind us that the hymn "was possibly written in this very city". (There was another church which could, I think, claim a slightly stronger link with Watts).
[ 15. August 2016, 15:50: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, Venbede, Mudfrog is right in the way he understands those verses in the old Advent hymn
Glad to hear that. In the past I had criticised leo's assertion that the hymn was anti-semitic. In fairness to him, I was pointing out something I'd just realised that supported his view.
But as I said, I don't think it is anti semitic in iteself.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Robin
Shipmate
# 71
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
When I was a school chaplain, I used to put "Christ triumphant" down at least once every half term ... I swear that every single time we sang it the HM would say to me as we left Chapel "Do we know that hymn?"
To be fair, Gutting Power is not the easiest of tunes (The Rector at my old church declined to use it for that reason).
Robin
Posts: 263 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Assuming it was "Guiting Power" and not the original Youth Praise tune.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I believe that Isaac Watts, an Independent, attended an Above Bar Chapel; however I don't think it has any relation whatsoever with the present church which dates from the Victorian period and may have originally been called called "Albion Chapel" although I'm not sure (it was rebuilt around 1980).
Nevertheless the Minister had no compunction in "claiming" Isaac Watts as their own. Whenever we sung "When I survey" - which we did at evening communion every month - he would always remind us that the hymn "was possibly written in this very city". (There was another church which could, I think, claim a slightly stronger link with Watts).
Right guess where the original Above the Bar Congregation ended up! However, here is the real problem. Above the Bar is Isaac Watts' childhood church. His ministry if I recall correctly was largely in London and he ended up Liberal Christian/Unitarian. This suggests to me that the original Above the Bar was English Presbyterian tradition but had a Trinitarian clause in its deeds. I maybe wrong.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
When I lived in Stoke Newington I always assumed Watts wrote his hymns there. In Abney Park Cemetery (burial place of the Booths) there is a hillock described as "Dr Watts' Mound" supposedly where he went for inspiration.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first tune (Michael Baughen, I think?) isn't a great one - it can be confused with something you'd expect to come from a fairground organ.
Yes, the original tune was by Michael Vaughn, arranged by Noel Tredinnick.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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