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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Word of the Lord - Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Something other than the gospel is read. The reader says at the end "The Word of the Lord", the response is "Thanks be to God". But sometimes I hear "Hear what the Spirit is saying the Church", including yesterday.
Is there any history to "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church"? What about it?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
The phrase, of course, is from the first chapters of Revelation. My memory is that as a response to a reading (or as an introduction, which is how we sometimes use it), it started with the New Zealand Prayerbook.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Revelation 2:7 is presumably the source. (I had to Google that, good Episcopalian that I am.)
I can't remember when I first heard it, but I've heard it before.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Yuck.
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
People taking it upon themselves to alter liturgical texts is a pet peeve of mine.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
In my current shack this is the accepted statement after each non-gospel reading, a practice introduced by a previous Rector. I think it was suggested as an alternate ending in one of TEC's supplemental liturgical texts issued in the early 2000's. (Sorry, don't have those texts handy-by at the moment, so cannot verify that.)
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Let us, with a gladsome mind
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Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Yes, Baby Wombat, Enriching Our Worship 1 does use this response as the standard response.
I tend to be a "stick to what I know" kind of guy, like most folks, I suppose. I get a little flustered whenever I actually have to pick up my program to find a response.
That said, I don't think this is a bad one. And generally, I have found that TEC does a good job of sticking to the model of drawing from scripture in the composition of its new liturgies. When I said "Episcopalian that I am" above, I was referring to the fact that I actually know a huge number of Bible verses by heart, I just can't tell you exactly where they come from beyond "we use that as a response in Morning Prayer." So the more scripture I am exposed to through this method, I suppose, the better.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Yuck.
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
People taking it upon themselves to alter liturgical texts is a pet peeve of mine.
It would not be unreasonable to regard the notion that God can only be addressed or spoken of in cod C16 language as a pet peeve. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Yuck.
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
People taking it upon themselves to alter liturgical texts is a pet peeve of mine.
It would not be unreasonable to regard the notion that God can only be addressed or spoken of in cod C16 language as a pet peeve.
In which case, it's easy enough to find a church that doesn't use an older version of the Prayer Book, no?
At any rate, I wasn't aware that the response came from an authorized supplement to the BCP. So while I still don't like it, it's not (as I originally thought) the result of some loose cannon altering liturgical texts on the fly.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It would not be unreasonable to regard the notion that God can only be addressed or spoken of in cod C16 language as a pet peeve.
Setting aside my pet peeve of having to decipher unintelligible abbreviations and acronyms (what is a cod C16?) ... ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I don't think that's the point. The point is that the Church, presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has prescribed certain language and responses to be used in the liturgy, yet individuals take it upon themselves (probably *not* under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) to substitute their own preferred utterances in place of same.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The point is that the Church, presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has prescribed certain language and responses to be used in the liturgy, yet individuals take it upon themselves (probably *not* under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) to substitute their own preferred utterances in place of same.
But that doesn't seem to be the case here. If the Church has authorized "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church" as an approved alternative response to the reading of scripture, then can readers (presumably with approval from those in charge) who avail themselves of that approved alternative be properly described as "people taking it upon themselves to alter liturgical texts"?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Yuck.
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
People taking it upon themselves to alter liturgical texts is a pet peeve of mine.
It would not be unreasonable to regard the notion that God can only be addressed or spoken of in cod C16 language as a pet peeve.
Cod C16 language, certainly not. Real C16 (/C17) language, on the other hand...
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Hear what the fish are saying to the church? Define "cod c16". anyone? anyone?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
C16 is 16th Century, I assume. No clue about "cod."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
"Cod" means fake or ersatz. In this case, though, I believe the 1662 BCP prescribes that conclusion for the Epistle at the Eucharist. So it's echt 17th century.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Echt? goodle says 'lawful, genuine'
Hear what the dialect is saying to the church, but doesn't understand. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I Rather like the exhortation to listen to Spirit.
I prefer that to assuming that a passage of scripture assigned by a lectionary is the appropriate Word that speaks to the particular circumstance of a Christian community.
ISTM that the Revelation passage could be seen as asking a church to look at itself and see if any of the messages to the seven churches are pertinent to itself.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I like "Wort des lebendigen Gottes" (Word of the living God), to which the response is "Dank sei Gott" (Thanks be to God). In the current German-language Roman Missal, that is.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I was actually being snide not about using C16 language so much as the innate fondness that most of us have for various versions of I disapprove, therefore I am.
All the same, if one is using the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, that is written in a form of English which was a bit out of date even then, but which one is stuck with. However, once it appears in a liturgy written in the C20 or C21, 'hear endeth' is linguistically cod whatever the ecclesiastical level of the person on whose authority it was issued.
This is thoroughly tangential. Nevertheless, there's quite a good example of the sort of thing I'm getting at in this week's Collect from Common Worship. It reads,
quote:
O God, forasmuch as without you we are not able to please you; mercifully grant that your Holy Spirit may in all things direct and rule our hearts .... .
It is trying to sound liturgical. But even without any 'thee' or 'eth' it still manages to end up mangled and linguistically derivative, a half-hearted modernisation of its C16 original. Unless one is using the 1662 book, in which case one has to stick to the original version, that would be better if it had been properly rewritten into a dignified register version of clear modern English.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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The Scrumpmeister
Ships Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I quite like "The Word of the Lord" and "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church" because at least they contain some theological point. By contrast, "Here endeth the lesson" seems rather like a text seeking a purpose.
In my jurisdiction the people know that the reading has ended when the reader stops reading. There is no perceived need for the reader to say 'I've stopped reading now' or words to that effect.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
One of my pet peeves is people saying "Here endeth the Epistle" when it's not. It makes me want to heckle.
"Here endeth the Epistle."
"No it doesn't; there's another four chapters!"
I have never heard, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church" but I don't like it (mainly on the purely irrational grounds that I'm not familiar with it, but partly because it sounds a bit pi and wordy.)
quote:
...God can only be addressed or spoken of in cod C16 language...
It is, of course, not "cod C16 language" - it's real C16 language!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I don't need an exhortation at the end of the reading. If anything needs saying then it should be just an announcement that it is the end of the reading.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
C16 is 16th Century, I assume. No clue about "cod."
C16 has been a standard way here of writing 16th century for well over the half century of which I can speak. "Cod" in this usage means "fake". So the date half of the assertion is correct, the description otherwise is wrong.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think the deckchairs would look better over there, near that big lump of ice.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
I met this usage (Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church) in Fiji (part of the NZ Anglican province) and I always thought it particularly appropriate after a more obscure or bloodthirsty OT reading. Perhaps the Holy Spirit could show us why this piece of iron age wisdom was in the lectionary for 21st century Christians, even if it was not at first apparent!
[ 04. October 2016, 11:01: Message edited by: Marama ]
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Yes, Marama, that's, I think, what a lot of people like about it.
We used to have a developmentally disabled individual who attended our church. He obviously spent a lot of time at home listening to Christian radio, and subscribed to a much sterner, more literal version of the faith than the rest of us. He was a monthly reader, and when he read, he would allow the spirit to take hold of him, and deliver the epistle from memory as an oratory from Paul. He would always end by saying, "My brothers and sisters, this ... IS ... the word of the Lord."
There would always be a longish pause before the congregational response, I think because members of the congregation forgot that saying "thanks be to God" could just be a response to keep things moving, and not a voice of ascent to the assertion about scripture implicit in the voicing.
I personally can just say "thanks be to God" as a response without reading too much into the implications, but I can get why someone might want a gentler ending to the reading.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
One of my pet peeves is people saying "Here endeth the Epistle" when it's not. It makes me want to heckle.
"Here endeth the Epistle."
"No it doesn't; there's another four chapters!"
Well, yes; but "Epistle" can refer to either the entire NT book, or to the liturgical reading which is usually taken from one of those books. In this case, "Here endeth the Epistle" refers to the latter.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think the deckchairs would look better over there, near that big lump of ice.
"Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN?!"
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think the deckchairs would look better over there, near that big lump of ice.
"Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN?!"
I'm not sure what relevance you think that has to my comment.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At our place, it's "Here endeth the Epistle [or Lesson]."
We have: "Here ends the lesson. Blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it."
The purpose is that it is an assertion that what has just been read is the Word of God.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
A typical but slightly old-fashioned postscript used in Baptist churches is "May the Lord add his blessing to the reading of his Word". Of course we have no liturgical protocol to follow.
I knew a URC minister who simply said, "Word of the Lord" - he had his reasons but it sounded a bit odd to my ears!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think the deckchairs would look better over there, near that big lump of ice.
"Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN?!"
I'm not sure what relevance you think that has to my comment.
This section of SoF is devoted to discussing liturgical matters, which involves a certain amount of talking about things which evidently appear trivial to you. You're entitled to think so, but I wonder why you think we need to be periodically reminded of that.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Dear all,
Please keep things respectful and polite. People's traditions may vary and all are entitled to their opinions.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
How about "Holy wisdom, Holy Word"?
The liturgy (non-binding, of course) in the PC(USA) hymnal offers it as an alternative to "The Word of the Lord" following a reading. The response is still "Thanks be to God." (Both in that liturgy and in The Book of Common Worship, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church" is given as an option to be used before the reading. The other before-reading option is "Hear the Word of the Lord," though I often hear "Listen for the Word of the Lord.") I think it came to us from the Lutherans and the Episcopalians, but I don't know much more than that about its history. It does seem to echo just a little the Orthodox "Wisdom! Let us attend!"
Anyone else encounter it?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
A typical but slightly old-fashioned postscript used in Baptist churches is "May the Lord add his blessing to the reading of his Word". Of course we have no liturgical protocol to follow.
I knew a URC minister who simply said, "Word of the Lord" - he had his reasons but it sounded a bit odd to my ears!
We use "May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Word" also.
I think I remember the readers at the famous "Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols" from King's College, Cambridge saying simply "the Word of the Lord" when finished reading. I've also heard them say "Thanks be to God."
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
...God can only be addressed or spoken of in cod C16 language...
It is, of course, not "cod C16 language" - it's real C16 language! [/QB]
But I don't speak C16 language. Only a C16 person would have spoken C16 language (though I think something similar is spoken in parts of Yorkshire, or was when I were a lad). Of course, I can translate, but why not use everyday language? Does it seem more "religious" to use antiquated phraseology? That ISTM is on the spectrum where keeping to Latin is at one extreme (assuming that no-one wants to back to patristic Greek, or even further).
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think I remember the readers at the famous "Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols" from King's College, Cambridge saying simply "the Word of the Lord" when finished reading. I've also heard them say "Thanks be to God."
Right. They start with a one-sentence synopsis ("Adam and Eve disobey God in the Garden of Eden," or some such), read the lesson, and say "Thanks be to God" at the end. The congregation doesn't respond.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Of course, I can translate, but why not use everyday language? Does it seem more "religious" to use antiquated phraseology?
Even liturgies written in contemporary language tend to be quite a bit different from the way I speak to friends or acquaintances, or even to the judge in court. Liturgical language has its own phrasing, vocabulary, and pace.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I loathe This is the word of the Lord in a service on the simple grounds that is isn't true: it is the word of whoever wrote the epistle or whatever. IMHO some of the problems the church faces with those who wish to see and use the Bible as a religious Haynes manual stem from this inaccuracy.
In any case, why do we have This is the word of the Lord after an OT lesson or epistle reading, yet the Gospel reading is Gospel according to St ...?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Does it seem more "religious" to use antiquated phraseology? That ISTM is on the spectrum where keeping to Latin is at one extreme (assuming that no-one wants to back to patristic Greek, or even further).
A good reason for using Latin is to link us, the church today, with the church in earlier times. The same reason why Kyrie eleison is often said in Greek. So to use a prayer or other text from Cranmer's liturgy in Cranmer's language is to continue in that tradition. That doesn't imply using one language/ idiom for the entire liturgy.. it may be appropriate, but in most contexts these days probably not.
[ 05. October 2016, 22:16: Message edited by: Angloid ]
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I loathe This is the word of the Lord in a service on the simple grounds that is isn't true: it is the word of whoever wrote the epistle or whatever.
Are we not supposed to believe that whoever wrote the epistle was inspired by God and was, therefore, writing His words? One needn't be a fundamentalist to believe that what was written by St Fred the Ambidextrous was the word of the Lord.
quote:
In any case, why do we have This is the word of the Lord after an OT lesson or epistle reading, yet the Gospel reading is Gospel according to St ...?
Before the Epistle we have "A reading from the Epistle of St..." -
Before the Gospel we have "Hear the the Gospel of oLJC according to St...".
After the Epistle we have "This is the word of the Lord." -
After the Gospel we have "This is the Gospel of the Lord."
There is only a glaring difference between the two if you compare the "before" for one reading with the "after" of the other reading. Why would you want to do that?! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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The Scrumpmeister
Ships Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Does it seem more "religious" to use antiquated phraseology? That ISTM is on the spectrum where keeping to Latin is at one extreme (assuming that no-one wants to back to patristic Greek, or even further).
A good reason for using Latin is to link us, the church today, with the church in earlier times.
Another is to link the Church today to itself, across linguistic barriers.
I'll never forget visiting Lourdes as a teenager and singing the Pater Noster, Gloria Patri, and Ave Maria with Christians from Spain, France, Germany, Malta, Italy, and countless other countries. We might not have been able to have a conversation about how comfortable our hotel beds were but we could pray together in a common language.
The same is true of Slavonic and other liturgical languages. I can go to a Serbian, Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Belarussian, or other Slavic Orthodox church both in Britain and abroad, and be able to understand a great deal of the words of the hymns and prayers precisely because of exposure to Slavonic in my first Orthodox parish.
Exclusive use of the vernacular can be so very limiting.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I loathe This is the word of the Lord in a service on the simple grounds that is isn't true: it is the word of whoever wrote the epistle or whatever.
Are we not supposed to believe that whoever wrote the epistle was inspired by God and was, therefore, writing His words? One needn't be a fundamentalist to believe that what was written by St Fred the Ambidextrous was the word of the Lord.
Add to that some of us are in a tradition that operates with an understanding that when the canonical writings of St. Fred, or Tim the Prophet, are read when the church is gathered for worship, God is active in the gathered community, speaking in the present through those writings. In that sense, "the word of the Lord" refers not so much to the words on the page as it does to what the congregation experiences in reading those words together.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I loathe This is the word of the Lord in a service on the simple grounds that is isn't true: it is the word of whoever wrote the epistle or whatever.
Are we not supposed to believe that whoever wrote the epistle was inspired by God and was, therefore, writing His words? One needn't be a fundamentalist to believe that what was written by St Fred the Ambidextrous was the word of the Lord.
Add to that some of us are in a tradition that operates with an understanding that when the canonical writings of St. Fred, or Tim the Prophet, are read when the church is gathered for worship, God is active in the gathered community, speaking in the present through those writings. In that sense, "the word of the Lord" refers not so much to the words on the page as it does to what the congregation experiences in reading those words together.
Which is why I would much prefer something like "May the Word of the Lord come (or speak) to us through this reading".
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
It's de riguer in NZ
I prefer the Australian '[Lord], may your word live in us.'
I assume that is just for the Anglicans.
And I don't think I have heard that at my local Anglican Church, though I would like to.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Add to that some of us are in a tradition that operates with an understanding that when the canonical writings of St. Fred, or Tim the Prophet, are read when the church is gathered for worship, God is active in the gathered community, speaking in the present through those writings. In that sense, "the word of the Lord" refers not so much to the words on the page as it does to what the congregation experiences in reading those words together.
Which is why I would much prefer something like "May the Word of the Lord come (or speak) to us through this reading".
To me, it makes more sense to say something like that before the reading rather than after it. In the Reformed tradition, the readings would be preceded by the prayer for illumination, which essentially asks just that. The one I typically use when I'm the reader goes "Overwhelm us with your Spirit, O Lord, that the words we hear may speak to us as your Word, made known to us in Jesus Christ. Amen."
So the sequence would be:
the prayer for illumination
announcement of the first reading (possibly with "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church" or "Listen for the word of God.")
the reading itself
response ("The word of the Lord"/"Thanks be to God.")
announcement of the second reading . . . .
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I like the idea of saying that before the reading.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think the deckchairs would look better over there, near that big lump of ice.
"Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN?!"
I'm not sure what relevance you think that has to my comment.
This section of SoF is devoted to discussing liturgical matters, which involves a certain amount of talking about things which evidently appear trivial to you. You're entitled to think so, but I wonder why you think we need to be periodically reminded of that.
Because watching the church disappearing up its own arsehole getting excited about things that matter about as much as the colour of the bog pains me. And also my opinion that these issues are trivial is just as relevant as the opinions of those who think they matter. I wouldn't give a monkeys if the church weren't disappearing where the sun don't shine, but it is. FWIW I'd echo L'organist, and a church I used to attend would say "How is this the word of the Lord to us today?" though I expect that would cause conniptions in some circles.
[ 06. October 2016, 09:02: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Two points.
1. While I actually agree with Karl that these are trivial liturgical points (well, you'd expect me to, as a Nonconformist), IMO that might be a better question to raise in a Purg. thread rather than on this one. YMMV.
2. There is surely a balance to be struck about declaring Scripture to be "the Word of the Lord" which "stands written" through all ages whether we hear it or not; and "the Word of the Lord" coming to us today through the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Surely these categories are complementary rather than exclusive: following Karl Barth (I think), we want the "written Word" to become the "living Word". If it doesn't, then it is nothing more a historical or traditional text.
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