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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
The knives are out, or rather even further out, for Jeremy Corbyn.
There's been some discussion on the main EU referendum thread so I've cherry-picked it for further discussion here:
quote:
Doublethink posted:
And now he's said he won'tt actually stand for the leadership - that is possibly even less helpful. I think he would probably have lost - but he could have launched a challenge then put his case and maybe je would have convinced the membership. Niw he's just destablised the shadow cabinet with no apparent further plan (to be clear, yes I know Corbyn sacked him he didn't resign - but he was trying organise a mass resignation in which je would participate.)
What rally pisses me off, is that a) Corbyn deliver 70% of the labour vote for remain, which is comparable to the proportion their vote the SNP were able to deliver b) Corbyn has been consistently talking about the problems of poor communities hit by austerity, crap working conditions and shit housing since he took the leadership - and it is these problems that underly the brexit vote c) a large chunk of criticism about his campaign is that he actually told the electorate the truth, when they felt he should have spun to pretend we could get immigration rates down by by tens of thousand even with free movement c) the plp have been briefing against him since he was elected including *throughout* the remain campaign d) the actual leaders of the remain campaign itself (lord somebody or other - yes lord - nice appeal to the working man or woman there) and the labour remain campaign - Alan Johnson - have been nowhere to be bloody seen.
I saw much online coverage of corbyn doing stuff for remain - can anyone here rember Alan Johnson actually giving a remain speech, or Hilary Benn ? Iam sure it must have happened.
quote:
Rocinante posted:
I actually heard [Alan] Johnson doing a phone-in on Radio 4 and he was very good, giving factual and constructive answers to even the most hostile callers in his usual matey style.
I don't think we can blame any of the Labour remain campaigners for their lack of exposure, the media were all obsessed with the blue-on-blue feuding between Cameron, and Boris & Dave.
quote:
Doublethink posted:
There is now a claim he wasn't at the campaign launch circulating on twitter, supposedly sourced from someone working in labour communciations. Presumambly, they'd for gotten this photograph of the launch is findable through google:
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/a-vote-to-stay-in-the-eu-is-essential-for-jobs-and-workers-rights-says-alan-johnson/
I believe it is also ion the daily mirror site. Meanwhile Huffpost have a piece claiming he sabotaged the campaign consisting of:
- He didn't focus on the referendum campaign till after the local elections - this seems to me unsurprising given that the plp were screaming that the labour vote was going to tank, he wasn't doing enough etc (it didn't and the party won the byelections)
- Claims refused to meet with Alan Johnson - this has been debiunked, his office point out they met two days after Johnson asked to book a meeting and had fixed fortnightly meetings in his diary
- They ddin't like the issues he choose to focus on and felt he didn't talk enough about immigration - choosing instead to blame these problems on austerity (also noting oroblems with the EU in his speeches whilst arguing for remain). Or to put it another way, he told the truth.
- He wouldn't put a specifc set phrase at the end of every speech - this of a man who was elected partly because people were sick of 'soundbite' politics
- They felt he should have done more specific labour in events, instead of talking about it at other political and canvassing events
- He didn't share a platfotm with Browb, Blair or Lord Mandleson - I struggle to see who this would have helped, frankly I am amazed anyone thinks having Tony Blair backing your cause is helpful
- He didn't trail soundbites of his Andrew Marr interview to the press ahead of time
- There was one particular speech they thought was going to be about the EU but wasn't
This is very clearly co-ordinated with the cabinet resignations - none of it comes anywhere near an *honest* strategy that would have changed the vote.
The campaign would have functioned better if the plp were not also v obviously manourvering to oust him during the campaign.
quote:
Posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I don't think we can blame any of the Labour remain campaigners for their lack of exposure, the media were all obsessed with the blue-on-blue feuding between Cameron, and Boris & Dave.
Which also meant that no matter how well Corbyn (or anyone else) made the case for the EU based on the rights of workers etc, arguments that should appeal to the traditional Labour voter, those arguments were never going to be heard by the Labour voters he was appealing too. Which may be a result of poor press officers in his office, but it's also possible that the obsession in the press with the issues of the right and the Tory infighting would have made even the worlds greatest press team struggle to get his message reported.[/qb]
quote:
Posted by Doublethink:
Also he [Corbyn] did deliver 70% of the labour vote, realistically how much higher could that really be - if 70% of the entire country had voted either remain or leave we'd have been astonished.
(Apologies to anyone whose contribution I have overlooked.)
Thoughts? Not just on Corbyn's performance in the referendum but in general
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
I lived in Jeremy Corbyn's constituency for 21 years. He is an exceptionally good constituency MP. He is also an exceptionally good leader, which is why the owners of the right wing press and other establishment figures are so scared of him.
We have to remember that Corbyn has been an MP forever. He has been a Labour back-bencher continuously since Margaret Thatcher's day. He's seen it all: all the back-biting, the knife-stabbing, the conspiracies and hate-campaigns that make up modern parliament. He's got great knowledge, extensive experience, a lifetime's worth of contacts and I bet he knows where some skeletons are hidden in a cupboard or two.
So he won't be easy for anyone to get rid of.
More power to his elbow.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
He could have done with storming a few more barns, but it's not his style.
I can't think of anyone else in the current lineup who would be any better.
And the one that could have been is lying dead.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
To me Corbyn looks like a possible way forward for the UK, not so much because of his political views, but because of the political restructuring he has embarked on within his own party. It remains to be seen whether it will survive this test.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
This is a real crisis in the history of Britain. At such times a lot depends on who can command the confidence of the House - e.g. Churchill in 1940, was actually more popular on the Labour benches than in his own party.
Cameron is a laughing-stock and has bowed out. The process of replacing him will be protracted, in the meantime there is a vacuum. Corbyn is a nice enough guy, and I bear him no ill-will, but he doesn't strike me as someone who can assume leadership of the pro-European majority of MPs and at least secure a Brexit settlement that won't trample roughshod over the rights of vulnerable people.
He was supposed to be a leader who would re-connect the Labour party with its "traditional" core voters, but they were the very voters who voted Leave in large enough numbers to land us in this almighty mess. That, I think. is why the PLP have finally given up on him (not that they needed much excuse, they've always hated his guts)
I think he needs to call a "back me or sack me" leadership vote. Very probably, under the present rules, he would be re-elected; but that would at least settle the matter.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What has happened, is that the reshuffle he wanted to do (and only sacked two) and was talked out of cos they insisted he mist be inclusive, has now done itself.
The bbc have a handy who's in, who's out list.
This is just so fucking stupid - if they had a candidate, there might have been a point.
The progressive brexit case is not hard to make, it is basically we weather the fallout and try for a Norwegian style society internally, then everyone has a big argument about immigration.
Probably could compromise on a points based immigration system, basically because it won't cap migration by default - plus could agree a set certain number of points for being an EU citizen with the European Union.
Then every election for the rest of time there will be part of each party's manifesto with how they want the points sytem or its thresholds changed.
[ 26. June 2016, 17:56: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I cannot see how he can be unseated. He has the votes of members in the country.
Hilary Benn may be right about his lack of top leadership capability, but I think the majority of Labour members like and respect him as a good, decent, principled and serious man. The best thing going for him as a politician is that he is about as opposite in character and nature to Boris Johnson as it is possible to be. The worst thing going for him is that he is utterly and publicly opposed to the racist and xenophobic tendencies which a disturbingly large proportion of my co-citizens either espouse or condone. And many of them live in the traditional Labour heartlands which he will need to recover.
He may indeed be a loser but right at present I do not know what a winner would look like. A Labour racist or fellow traveller is an oxymoron.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I cannot see how he can be unseated. He has the votes of members in the country.
He may indeed be a loser but right at present I do not know what a winner would look like. A Labour racist or fellow traveller is an oxymoron.
Precisely. I mean who would they have to replace him ? One of the Blairites who proved their electability by losing the leadership election?
This is Nicola Murray level politics. The Tories are in disarray, Osbourne is AWOL, https://i.imgur.com/CFmbjDY.jpg is the front runner to be PM and the Shadow Cabinet is obsessed with not being on the front page?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I agree with everything Doublethink posted above.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Legislation wise, if I were doing brexit I would aim to focus on negotiatiating the trade deals and EU relationship (which is going to be an involved nightmare in itself)
On leaving, which I imagine we will end up doing before trade deals are completed, pass some single law saying all regs previously governed by the eu treaties stay they same unless explicitly repealed and do one migration law of some sort.
Then in parallel, setup commons comittees to scrutinse different legislative areas and recommend which previous eu regs should be left and which changed. I suspect this bit may still be goining on two decades later.
I would try to resolve some of the ire and issues between our constituent nations by federating the UK, rather than a breakup. Might suggest that devolved govs could choose, within a federated union, to have a Norway style common market agreement if they want to. This would mean we'd need a more defined border with Scotland, which would be a pain, but not impossible.
[ 26. June 2016, 18:09: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
What's happening here?! More agreement with Doublethink ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Devolved administrations negotiating their relationship with the single market & free movement of labour makes sense, in the context of tax raising powers and some foreign policy powers being fully devolved in a federated UK. It would also mean the Northern Irish would not need a hardened land border which would be better for the peace process.
It would also give the English a proper devolved government rather than the current pigs ear of a convention about who can vote on what in the national parliament.
[ 26. June 2016, 18:16: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
(Tries for a hat trick.)
[ 26. June 2016, 18:14: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Thoughts? Not just on Corbyn's performance in the referendum but in general
It seems that the Conservative Party has not only lost its leader but is also about to the lose its greatest asset for winning the next general election.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This is the out list' quoting BBC news:
quote:
Sacked: Hilary Benn, shadow foreign secretary
Resigned: Karl Turner, shadow attorney general (not actually in the cabinet)
Lord Falconer, shadow justice secretary
Heidi Alexander, shadow health secretary
Lucy Powell, shadow education secretary
Vernon Coaker, shadow Northern Ireland secretary
Ian Murray, shadow Scottish secretary - and Labour's only MP in Scotland
Kerry McCarthy, shadow environment secretary
Seema Malhotra, shadow chief secretary to the Treasury
Lillian Greenwood, shadow transport secretary
Gloria de Piero, shadow minister for young people and voter registration[/list]
[ 26. June 2016, 18:53: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And the one that could have been is lying dead.
Since you mention her, Jo Cox had co-written a public letter in the Guardian asking Corbyn to get his act together and provide some leadership.
Not that I have any idea whether sticking with Corbyn would work better for the Labour Party than dumping Corbyn. As you say, there aren't any obviously more charismatic candidates. It could be argued that Corbyn keeping out of the press is more effective than being routinely pilloried in the press as Miliband was.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I doubt she'd have backed Corbyn, but she might have run against him more credibly than some others. To be honest, I reckon their best shot might be John Mann.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I doubt she'd have backed Corbyn, but she might have run against him more credibly than some others.
That was my point. She could have been our Nicola.
Tbh, I cannot fault our First Minister's response - it has been faultlessly liberal and inclusive. Admittedly, she represents a Scotland as it imagines itself rather than, perhaps, it is. But that can work too , we can be the Burnsian nation of
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.
if we believe we are.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No she couldn't. Truly wonderful as she was. She couldn't. She was a new kid on the block. An MP for a year only. With 20 years experience, yes, loved and respected by at least one crusty Tory. But no.
Jeremy MUST reach out from his principled position.
And Nicola MUST play her hand with a vengeance.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Chris Bryant has resigned.
(Shadow leader of the house, apparently. MP for Rhonda.)
[ 26. June 2016, 21:10: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Entirely possible, and she'd have been wrong.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Chris Bryant has resigned.
(Shadow leader of the house, apparently. MP for Rhonda.)
Wow, what a rude and vindictive letter he wrote, blaming Corbyn personally for the failure of the Remain campaign.
Funny thing is, Chris, as Shadow Leader of the House and senior Labour figure in the Shadow Cabinet, you were in Corbyn's team. If you think that this was a failure of "Corbyn and his team", that's you that is. What other team was there?
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arse
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Obviously, I'm simply and outside observer with no opinion, positive or negative, about Mr. Corbyn.
But if people here, and I'm speaking of those who have more or less expressed sympathies with Labour, are concerned about electibility -- the possibility of Labour defeating the hated Tories -- it seems to me Corbyn has a problem. If he's opposed by the more right-wing Labourites, and is firmly and as a man of principle solidly on the left of he party, he's going to lose a portion of Labour's supporters. Where they go I don't know, but they won't vote for his party even if they just stay home. And clearly no Conservatives or UKIP supporters are going to come over to a more left-wing Labour Party.
So where is he going to get the votes from the general public to keep even the seats the party has now, much less increase them to the point where he has a majority at Westminster? No voters means no seats. And it's clear as it can be that no party, either of the left or the right, can win a majority based solely on its own members -- you have to get support from the mushy middle. Can Corbyn do that, given that on this one issue at least, he has notably failed to carry the majority of his traditional supporters with him?
Please note -- I don't know anything about the oolicies involved, or the people. I have no favourites in any race to replace or confirm Corbyn. And I'm going on what people on this site have been writing since Corbyn became leader. I'm simply concerned with how 1+1=2 electorally...or not. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong or principled or unscrupulous...it's a question of who can attract votes.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I'll repeat what I said on another thread:
quote:
As things stand there are really two possibilities. Either he favoured Brexit but didn't have the balls to admit it and campaigned feebly, in which case he was disingenuous or he opposed Brexit and campaigned feebly in which case he was feeble. In either case I think the words of Blessed Leo Amery (PBUH) are appropriate here: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go".
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As things stand there are really two possibilities. Either he favoured Brexit but didn't have the balls to admit it and campaigned feebly, in which case he was disingenuous or he opposed Brexit and campaigned feebly in which case he was feeble. In either case I think the words of Blessed Leo Amery (PBUH) are appropriate here: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go".
Just saying it doesn't mean it is true. Under Corbyn, Labour are neck-and-neck with the Tories in the polls - which hasn't happened for quite a while under different leaders - and he managed to mobilise the vast majority of labour voters and in particular young voters to back Remain.
This stuff which says he didn't perform and didn't turn up and didn't persuade any Labour voters is bollocks.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As things stand there are really two possibilities. Either he favoured Brexit but didn't have the balls to admit it and campaigned feebly, in which case he was disingenuous or he opposed Brexit and campaigned feebly in which case he was feeble. In either case I think the words of Blessed Leo Amery (PBUH) are appropriate here: "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go".
Just saying it doesn't mean it is true. Under Corbyn, Labour are neck-and-neck with the Tories in the polls - which hasn't happened for quite a while under different leaders - and he managed to mobilise the vast majority of labour voters and in particular young voters to back Remain.
This stuff which says he didn't perform and didn't turn up and didn't persuade any Labour voters is bollocks.
These are the same opinion polls which predicted that Ed Miliband would be Prime Minister and Vote Remain would win the Referendum.
And, broadly speaking, you cannot claim that Corbyn did well enough if the object of the exercise was to keep us in the EU. To quote Jamie from the Thick Of It, "This is politics, not fucking East Enders". Sincerity is no defence in these matters. Assuming he was sincere, he lost. This has consequences. Preferably short pointy consequences of the et tu Brute variety.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Can Corbyn do that, given that on this one issue at least, he has notably failed to carry the majority of his traditional supporters with him?
Just to note that it's not clear that Corbyn did fail to carry the majority of his traditional supporters. The majority of Labour supporters did vote Remain. He just failed to carry enough traditional supporters.
Also, we've had a lot of Labour leaders over the years who've tried to woo the middle ground in politics. Blair succeeded, but most of the others have failed. The main difference is that Blair was charismatic and came over as believing in what he was saying. So there's no reason to suppose that someone from the centre-left of the party with enough conviction couldn't do better than someone from the right who came over as merely managerial.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Conservative central office couldn't have planned it better. Of the three groups they need to attract (at least two of) they offend all of them.
Hey Liberal Lefties, we don't care for your input so far.
Hey Labour leaver (Ukip tempter), just to remind you that we wanted the opposite from you.
Hey (ex New Labour&) Tory remainer, you may be unimpressed at Cameroon/Boris but don't blame them it wasn't the Tory's fault, it was all ours.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Look. In these dangerous and terrible times, a bit of blunt advice from someone who is not a Labour supporter but is not a member of any other political party either.
Some of you are thinking - this is the moment of the crisis of capitalism - fantastic - our opportunity - get our man in place - then we can seize power and impose the nostra we've always dreamt of on the benighted and ignorant British populace - we know best - we can give them what they really need, irrespective of what they think..
1. You don't know best; and
2. Your man hasn't got what it takes. He may represent your dreams, but he doesn't represent anyone else's. Crucial to charisma in a crisis is the ability to convey competence. He has about as much charisma when it comes to steadying the ship as a mast with no sails on it; and
3. In a crisis, those sort of aspirations are a luxury. Civilisation is a fragile thing. If you can't steady the ship and steer it, you can't do anything else, and you make everything much, much worse.
Cameron by his ineptitude, threw his dice and lost. Somebody now has got to keep the ship off the rocks. That is not the first priority. It is the only one. And your man is not the person to do it. Believe me. Irrespective of the votes of Labour rank and file, he has not got what it takes.
If you want to do your bit for your country, dump your man and choose somebody who can rise to the hour. Alternatively, keep your man and consign yourselves to the dustbin in England as you have in Scotland.
If you keep him and manage to get into any power at all, he'll do even worse than Cameron, and will take less than a month to do it in.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Certainly the impression here is along the lines of John Holding's post - and heaven knows the decent and honourable men who have led the Labor Party here in Federal or State parliaments who have been totally unelectable. Corbyn's appeal to the committed Left did not mean that he would be able to catch those voters needed to gain government. His similarity to Michael Foot and the general extremism of the Labour left in the eighties, was enough to scare them away, his honesty and decency notwithstanding.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I would like to be a fan of Jeremy Corbyn. I don't object to his politics, I object to his general lack of competence. In no particular order:
1. He was elected on a platform of anti-austerity, but we are seeing very few ideas about what an alternative would look like. People's quantitative easing is irrelevant if the Bank of England is not engaged in a quantitative easing programme of any kind.
2. He is going to have to convince at least some of the right, centre-right and centre-left that his ideas are reasonable. Why, then, did he appoint Seamus Milne??? (I'm not saying Mr Milne is a loony, I'm saying he's not capable of convincing the centre-right that he isn't a loony.)
3. You can't refuse to talk to the media and then complain that the media are being nasty to you.
4. (With thanks to betjemaniac.) One of his main ideas is unilateral nuclear disarmament. To achieve this, he suggests building the submarines but not fitting the missiles - which, I understand, is a very stupid idea indeed. Now I personally know nothing about the design of Trident submarines, but I have not devoted a political career to getting them abolished. Mr Corbyn OTOH seems to be the socialist equivalent of the kind of person who battles daily against the scarlet lady of the seven hills but who would be at a loss to explain what ex cathedra means.
5. I'm not impressed at the argument that he has a mandate from Labour supporters, because Labour MPs also hold a mandate from their respective constituents, and I suspect the sum total of constituents who backed Mr Corbyn's opponents is a larger population than the total of Labour supporters who backed Mr Corbyn.
6. Mr Corbyn has a track record of defying the party whip and is at odds with the majority of the PLP. This was always inevitably going to cause problems. No-one seems to have come up with a strategy on how to mitigate them.
7. Sharing or not sharing a platform with someone is about making a statement. It is a non-verbal form of soundbite politics. Consequently, Mr Corbyn should have considered whether 'I will share a platform with the IRA but not with Mr Cameron' was precisely the statement he intended to convey.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Labour has claimed to be, for some considerable time, a democratic socialist party. You appear to be confusing Corbyn with a communist, he's not - and his policy platform is not extreme. All of which is irrelevant to the brexit negotiations as they will be largely technocratic.
You are going to get competing visions of the future, Johnson and co want us to become more like America, Farage and co want us to become a protectionist state with a privileged dominant culture closer to how Australia or New Zealand operate and I think Corbyn's version would be something like Norway's social organisation. We need these ariculated clearly so we can decide which one to vote for.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Two more blunt messages as an afterthought, from a non-Labour Party member.
1. The SNP now occupies the place in Scotland that you should be occupying, but does it better.
2. You may not like this, but until it fouled up over Iraq, Tony Blair and the administration he ran was rather a good one, and had a lot of popular acceptance. He understood something very important which most of the Labour Party know, but would rather close their eyes to.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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8. In a parallel universe in which Mr Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, he is at some point going to have to come to an accommodation with unpleasant people whose interests are diametrically opposed to his principles. If he can't even get his own Party on-side, how is he ever going to negotiate successfully with industrial magnates, media moguls, or foreign governments?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
These are the same opinion polls which predicted that Ed Miliband would be Prime Minister and Vote Remain would win the Referendum.
Let's take some of the post election polling:
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/LR-by-party-768x558.jpg
Basically Corbyn carried the voters about as well as Sturgeon carried hers. [Okay -- you could of course claim that that poll is inaccurate too - though in that case on what are you basing your opinions on, because .. see below]
quote:
And, broadly speaking, you cannot claim that Corbyn did well enough if the object of the exercise was to keep us in the EU.
Assume only people who voted in the last GE voted in the referendum, in which case Corbyn would have to convince proportionally much more of his voters to vote Remain - simply because the majority of Tories were going to vote Leave by a significant margin. Of course in the event far more people were voting so there are a couple of further points to be made.
There were always people who weren't voting for Labour in those 'traditional Labour heartlands', and at some point those constituencies also had about 5-10% polling for the BNP (when UKIP arrived that percentage magically disappeared). So your point actually seems to be around "people who don’t support the Labour Party, don’t vote Labour, often don’t vote at all, but live in areas where the people who do vote are Labour, and so when they’re motivated, seemingly by anti-immigrant prejudice, to vote UKIP it’s somehow the Labour leader’s fault”.
Furthermore, Corbyn was touring the country, giving speeches in favour of the EU. Insofar as his support may be construed as half hearted it was largely because he was actually being honest about what he felt the shortcomings of the EU were (see his rating of 7/10). I think you may want to pause before arguing against that.
Personally, I think the team surrounding him are rubbish, the media team particularly are terrible at basic mechanics. I wouldn't completely agree with Enoch above, but it's clear that at some point he's going to be replaced. However, it also matters how this is done - the shadow cabinet resigning in a fit of pique whilst not having an alternate and credible leader makes for great headlines, but is the politics of incompetency more than anything else (it's like the worst of The Thick of It).
Finally, this was Cameron's cock up more than anything else - this was a referendum of his choosing, on a timetable he decided, towards which he hardly campaigned.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Doublethink, if that is Mr Corbyn's vision, the rest of us have no reason to suppose that is the case. He has signally failed to communicate it.
Even you say "I think Corbyn's version would be something like Norway's social organisation". That gives the impression to me that you don't know what his version is and perhaps are projecting onto him what you'd like it to be.
There isn't time to do this now. It's too late. We have a crisis. If he has a vision, he wants to win the public to, he should have been stating it in season and out of season since last autumn.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
You may not like this, but until it fouled up over Iraq, Tony Blair and the administration he ran was rather a good one, and had a lot of popular acceptance.
Up to a point (and had he stayed out of Iraq he would may have retained popularity with middle England). However it wasn't because of the stance on the Iraq war that swathes of the North have now vote for Leave, is it?
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Doublethink, if that is Mr Corbyn's vision, the rest of us have no reason to suppose that is the case. He has signally failed to communicate it.
Even you say "I think Corbyn's version would be something like Norway's social organisation". That gives the impression to me that you don't know what his version is and perhaps are projecting onto him what you'd like it to be.
There isn't time to do this now. It's too late. We have a crisis. If he has a vision, he wants to win the public to, he should have been stating it in season and out of season since last autumn.
When there's an election, there'll be a manifesto. The reason I am saying a version of, is because politicians have been forming policy whilst we were in the eu, and expecting to remain in the eu. Every party's platform will have to be adjusted to fit brexit.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Basically Corbyn carried the voters about as well as Sturgeon carried hers.
This seems to be the case. The people Corbyn failed to carry are the working class "traditional Labour supporters" who voted UKIP in the last election.
Where do we put the blame for that? Thirteen years of New Labour for doing a good job wooing the middle, but a stonkingly poor job selling their vision to a working class who didn't perceive much benefit from a Labour government?
A media which seems to switch its attention back and forth between immigrants, benefit scroungers and the breasts of some Z-list starlet?
Ed Miliband, for presenting such a shockingly inept election campaign that Labour managed to lose ground to the Tories in the middle of austerity?
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
8. In a parallel universe in which Mr Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, he is at some point going to have to come to an accommodation with unpleasant people whose interests are diametrically opposed to his principles. If he can't even get his own Party on-side, how is he ever going to negotiate successfully with industrial magnates, media moguls, or foreign governments?
Let alone so many of those sitting behind him.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Another three have resigned apparently, but the news isn't telling us who.
[ 27. June 2016, 07:03: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
3 junior ministers, more are expected later. Corbyn is expected to do a reshuffle today.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Annd he's started his reshuffle.
Diane Abbot got health, Thornberry got Hilary Benn's job. I expect the Eagle twins will stay.
[ 27. June 2016, 07:35: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
From the beeb:
- Shadow foreign secretary - Emily Thornberry
Shadow health secretary - Diane Abbott
Shadow education secretary - Pat Glass
Shadow transport secretary - Andy McDonald
Shadow defence secretary - Clive Lewis
Shadow chief secretary to the Treasury - Rebecca Long-Bailey
Shadow international development secretary - Kate Osamor
Shadow environment food and rural affairs secretary - Rachel Maskell
Shadow voter engagement and youth affairs - Cat Smith
Shadow Northern Ireland secretary - Dave Anderson
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Legislation wise, if I were doing brexit I would aim to focus on negotiatiating the trade deals and EU relationship (which is going to be an involved nightmare in itself)
On leaving, which I imagine we will end up doing before trade deals are completed, pass some single law saying all regs previously governed by the eu treaties stay they same unless explicitly repealed and do one migration law of some sort.
Then in parallel, setup commons comittees to scrutinse different legislative areas and recommend which previous eu regs should be left and which changed. I suspect this bit may still be goining on two decades later.
I would try to resolve some of the ire and issues between our constituent nations by federating the UK, rather than a breakup. Might suggest that devolved govs could choose, within a federated union, to have a Norway style common market agreement if they want to. This would mean we'd need a more defined border with Scotland, which would be a pain, but not impossible.
That's assuming that states and businesses will rush to make trade deals with us rather than wait till we've clarified our position and decided to actually leave. We're not exactly in a position of strength.
[ 27. June 2016, 07:46: Message edited by: Joesaphat ]
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That scenario is assuming we leave, have triggered article 50 and are trying to leave.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Where do we put the blame for that? Thirteen years of New Labour for doing a good job wooing the middle, but a stonkingly poor job selling their vision to a working class who didn't perceive much benefit from a Labour government?
I would go along with that - with the modification 'who didn't *receive* much benefit from a New Labour government'.
Blairism's redistribution to more depressed areas of the nation was always relatively weak (there was no industrial development strategy backing things up), and the basic strategy was always likely to run into problems should a future austerian government come into power. Which in fact was the case.
This is why I disagree somewhat with Enoch's evaluation of their success. Even absent Iraq at some point there would have been a downturn (and the GFC would have hit us anyway), at which point another government could have come in anyway, as Blairism's core economic claim was that they had ended boom and bust.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Furthermore, Corbyn was touring the country, giving speeches in favour of the EU. Insofar as his support may be construed as half hearted it was largely because he was actually being honest about what he felt the shortcomings of the EU were (see his rating of 7/10). I think you may want to pause before arguing against that.
He took a week off in the middle of the bloody campaign!
At present, we have voted to Leave. As things stand the pound is in free fall, the stock market is in free fall, RBS and Barclays have had to stop trading, the UK is apt to break up and the bunch of chancers who orchestrated this have no idea what to do about it. Omnishambles doesn't begin to sum the situation up. These were the stakes. At this juncture, with the safety of the Realm in mortal peril, a Labour leader, A LABOUR LEADER, decided the best thing he could do was to take a bit of me time and, when pressed into making the case for not torching the country, decided to equivocate like a sodding Vicar on sodding Thought For The Sodding Day.
He's not up to the job and he should piss off back to his allotment and his copies of the Collected Works Of Enver Hoxha and hand over the job of Leader Of The Opposition to someone who can find his or her arse with both hands.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
He's not up to the job and he should piss off back to his allotment and his copies of the Collected Works Of Enver Hoxha
I'm not sure about you people, but this is exactly what I'll be doing whilst all of the idiots watch Rome/London burn.
Right now, spending my next 30 years watching vegetables grow and trying to understand the complexities of continental philosophy looks like a very attractive option.
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arse
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Oh, that is priceless, Mr cheesy. Thank you for cheering me up! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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