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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: November Fitness Challenge?
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
Would anyone be up for a fitness challenge in November? I need some support to incentivise me to get up and get out and get moving now the nights are drawing in. (For those in the Southern Hemisphere it's would be a chance to get out more in nice weather I guess.)
I think how we've done this before is to count the hours of exercise each participant does and have a winner (being the person who does the most).
But I was thinking about each person who wants to join in just setting their own daily/weekly/month targets and the challenge being for them to meet them. If that makes sense!
Obviously would also depend on the Hosts being willing to have it take up a thread. I think before it sat in the Circus.
[ 28. October 2016, 17:50: Message edited by: Yangtze ]
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sounds brilliant, because i need something too. We asked the hosts whether we could run in the Circus.
(I'm also probably not going to be allowed to do much for a week or two. GP muttered two weeks off when I saw him earlier this week, which is not an option. I need to check blood tests on Monday.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I'm up for it. Having just retired I'm trying not to laze around and with a walking holiday planned for next year I need to get fitter than I am at present.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
I'd like to join in. I've done really well this year at being more active, but I am concerned it's going to be much more difficult from after the clocks changing and the darker nights, and could do with some extra motivation.
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If I come in last it will be a good run for me since right now i can slowly walk a short block, so yes!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I would be a starter. The Nordic walking class I signed up for was cancelled ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) so I need some encouragement.
I'm having difficulty getting moving and, being down in the southern hemisphere I don't have shorter days as a reason.
Huia
[ 28. October 2016, 21:35: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
It seems a good idea to me, too. Personal accountability is always a good idea.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
How lovely to see this thread. I regularly think of the fitness challenges of a few years ago as I'm on my way to and from the gym. I shall certainly join in but there are a few *but*s! one of them being that my heart rate has a tendency to drop to about 44 at unpredictable times so I'm going to have to wear a heart monitor when they've got one available, but being involved in a fitness challenge will be a good test.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I've just acquired a fitbit, and am aiming for my 10,000 steps a day. It would be good to have an extra layer of accountability as the nights get darker.
[ 29. October 2016, 11:40: Message edited by: Cottontail ]
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I'm in.
My gym habit has slipped. I want to get back to four times a week.
So I'm going to say Sunday, Monday, Thursday and Saturday.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I have started a new doc to record my exercise and time taken. I wish I could volunteer to collect results, but that is something way beyond me, I'm afraid!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
Oops, sorry, was away from my computer over the weekend. Must try and find my login so I can post from my phone.
Anyway, seems we have enough people interested for it to be a go-er. So far...
Curiosity Killed... (maybe, health permitting)
Sarasa
Japes
Belle Ringer
Huia
Welease Woderick
SusanDoris
North East Quine
Cottontail - 10,000 steps per day
Boogie - gym 4 days/week (Su/M/Th/Sa)
More are welcome as we go along of course.
Here's how I propose we do it:
- post your November fitness target (eg X amount per day/per week/in total over the month)
- state whether a brutal bootcamp pushing or a more gentle form of support from your fellow challengers is most likely to keep you going
- post regularly as to how you're doing against it / what you've done that day
- keep an eye on others and cheer them along / chivvy them according to their preferred support style
- I'll try and keep track and post some weekly updates as to how we're all doing
Hosts - can we do this here or do we need to move to The Circus?
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
Target:
- move generally min one hour per day (walking, cycling...)
- plus focused fitness exercise 3x per week (e.g. exercise class, outrigger training, long country walk, run...)
Feel free to kick my butt if you see me not posting or not achieving. A sharp 'oy Yangtze what's happening, get on with it' kind of thing. :-)
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Target: ideally some form of outdoor exercise every day, gardening or walking. However if the weather is foul, some form of indoor exercise. I'm aiming to try to find something that works for me.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I'm hoping my feet are now recovered enough for me to do 12,000 steps per day, starting tomorrow - probably only 5 days a week but you never know!
Tonight I shall start with a gentle stroll to the village and back to add to the 2680 steps I have done so far today - that was just to the bus stop and back and a small mooch round this end of town buying baby fodder and going to the bank.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I'm going to keep it simple with my 10,000 steps. I will aim to post every other day, and list each day as achieved or otherwise.
It's weird how on Sunday I managed to do the 10,000 steps just by generally running around, whereas on Saturday it took a 1 hour, 3 mile, blister-inducing walk to achieve same. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Well, fell at the first hurdle, I'm not going to village tonight as the rains came before I could get ready. November is traditionally a wet month as the N E Monsoon has a go at us so there will be many days when I can't walk - and that's just how it is.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
My aim is both simple and restricted, since I leave home for work at 6.30 am and don't get back till after 5.pm.
Outside of work, which can involve walking anything from a half to two miles (it's a big school on a split campus) to walk either to Sainsbury's - round trip 1 mile, or into the town centre and back - round trip 1.8 miles. This keeps the hips going.
I've already whinged on another thread about the swimming situation. It is in any case less attractive in winter and the daaaaaark.
Any extras, such as longer weekend walks, will be duly reported.
Gentle nudges are welcome.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
My retirement gift to myself was a fitbit, which has already informed me I've walked 5,000 steps today. My aim is to that as a minimum daily, but try to do 10,000 as often as possible. I'm also aiming for one fitness class and one swimming session a week. I've already done this week's swim - I appear to be getting slower (I use something called swimtag - until I used that I thought I was a pretty good swimmer for my age ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
Gentle nudges welcome.
[ 01. November 2016, 14:01: Message edited by: Sarasa ]
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
My main target is 15,000 steps a day, with at least one day a week over 20,000. I'm mostly achieving that now, but want to keep it going! My timetable at work has changed in a way that will actually help this.
My second is 7,000 "Aerobic Steps" at least 5 days a week. My little pedometer counts "Aerobic Steps" (which I gather is continuous walking for more than ten minutes a time at a reasonable pace) as well as total steps. Again, I'm mostly achieving this already, but would like to get more days with 10,000 aerobic steps in.
So, today, I've done 16,700 total with 7762 aerobic steps.
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I went back to sleep this morning so nil pointe for me - but I'll catch up a bit later on. We have a supermarket trip coming on and that is always worth a few steps!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I was trying for 10,000 steps a day plus a decent walk at the weekend. I was getting there, but know today I overdid it going back to work yesterday (worked from home on Monday), so am not pushing for that at the moment. i want to get back on my bike so that I am up to a 40-50 mile ride towards the end of December (although that can be slow and steady with breaks).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Thank you, Yangtze, forbeing the co-ordinator of times etc.
My target is not really specific, it's just an on-going one, and that is to regain the mobility level I had before being nocked down by that car in March 2014. The pelvic cracks and fractured bertebrae healed but the long period of lack of exercise exposed the 'advanced degenerative condition, resulting in complete loss of hip joint space' which had not bothered me at all before because of the muscle strength. A good physio and regular practice of exercises, etc mean that the improvement is slow but sure.
My routine is as before - swim, gym, tap dancing, gym, walk, but at tap for instance, I can only hop on left foot if I hold on to the bar!! Walking to the gym used to take 15 minutes, now it is 20-25. I am using taxis more than I used to!
Yesterday, 1st, I did 1 hr 35 min.
Walk to, from, gym = 25 min x 2
Gym 45 min, half CV half strength
[ 02. November 2016, 06:55: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
No extra walking for me yesterday - slapped wrist. WW has it right about supermarkets - my local Sainsbury's adds up to at least a quarter of a mile per mooch, not counting the walk there and back.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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To The Pain
Shipmate
# 12235
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Posted
Oh I do love a fitness thread and have just restarted Couch to 5K after a minor prolapsed disc over the summer b*ggered up one of my knees. I'm in. So my November goals are:
- Complete 3 C25K runs each week
- More than 6,000 steps each day
The first goal should be possible but might take a bit of application as my most convenient running days are back-to-back which doesn't allow the rest days in between that you are meant to do. The second should also be possible as it's less than my stepcount average for last month, but there were several (ie about 7) days on which I didn't manage it.
I got off to a good start by doing C25K week 2 run 1 in the gym last night and clocking up 13,943 steps walking to work and home from the gym.
The very existence of a fitness thread/race is usually enough to motivate me, so I should go and do my first perambulation of the corridors so start racking up those steps!
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Now occasionally blogging.
Hire Bell Tents and camping equipment in Scotland
Posts: 1183 | From: The Granite City | Registered: Jan 2007
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
May I join in?
Target is about 30 minutes exercise (eg running) about 5 times per week. We will see how we go.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Wednesday 2nd: Walked to the station and later home. Total 30 min
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Just under 3000 steps recorded today but it will be more than that as I don't count steps around the house.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
It has been a beautiful autumn day here, and as it is my day off, I went for a (nice and flat) walk down to the coast. It took longer than it should have, because I kept stopping to take photos! But five miles done, and I am well over my 10,000 step target for the day.
1st Nov.: 11,500 steps
2nd Nov.: 16,000 steps
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I used a pedometer years ago, before the fancy linking to smart phone apps and data days. I ended up giving it up, because it didn't really motivate me.
What I found motivated me for activity is 2 things: build it into your day as routine, and/or make a social time as well. So I take the dog out in the morning for 45 mins at 6 a.m., cycle 35 mins each way to work summer and winter, play in an older adult soccer league (co-ed, no refs, though I have been injured by an aggressive youngster of about 50), and curl.
[tangent]
My personal history is of an arthritic diagnosis for which I'm on daily medication for almost 40 years. I must continue to take it, but have an injection of some rather expensive DNA thing monthly (arthritis is autoimmune in many cases) for these past 6 years and it has made things so much better.
My professional work has had much to do with health policies and programs. Right now, we're testing out a program where people on stress leaves from work, or having had a trauma, get daily access to a supervised exercise program, or occupational therapist accompanying on nature walks and similar. Both a place to go and activity. It makes a great difference to mental and psychological wellbeing say the preliminary data. The diagnoses that seem to benefit are depression, anxiety and "symptoms of trauma" or PTSD. There's the mindfulness of doing something that takes attention into the present, the social aspect of somewhere to go where people are kind, and whatever fitness gains contribute to mental health. -- motivation for this was some experience within our family 5 years ago. So far we have about 35 people through and two insurance companies funding it. I have been very excited about it. Hoping to spread it to the public health system.
[/tangent]
So if I may offer encouragement: increase both you physical and mental wellbeing with your fitness challenge!
[ 02. November 2016, 17:39: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
19459 steps, and 10445 of them "aerobic steps".
Not bad considering I've been classroom or meeting based all day and evening!
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Well according to my fitbit I had 73 active minutes yesterday and walked 11,776 steps. The last 2,000 were gained by dancing round the kitchen to Bob ~Dylan's Thunder on the Mountain and then jogging to the pub for a swift half. The rest of the day was housework and going into London to meet friends. I did walk up the escalators though which felt like exercize
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
No extras yesterday either, but today is going to be much more energetic as I oscillate between split sites.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Thursday 3rd: 1 hr 20 min
(50 min tap dancing - it's an hour-long class but changing the music and so on takes up some of the time!
30 min walk to town and home.)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I'm feeling tired just thinking about tap-dancing for 50 minutes. I've never tried it, but it looks very energetic, and any kind of dancing tends to leave me completely knackered.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Yesterday just over 10,000 steps recorded but I also went out in the evening but didn't take my phone so it is really a bit more than that.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
November 3rd - 14668 steps of which 5656 were aerobic steps. Lots of short bursts of moving around, but not much sustained walking.
Today involves cake...
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
I'm feeling tired just thinking about tap-dancing for 50 minutes. I've never tried it, but it looks very energetic, and any kind of dancing tends to leave me completely knackered.
I hasten to point out that, when the music is fast, the most important aspect of my music player is the speed control!! There are pauses, varying from seconds to several minutes, thdepending on whether they aare between tracks or to change the disc. The dances themselves last one or two minutes. Learning them and going over and over steps are always part of the class.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I did my Thursday gyms session - yay, first in ages. Only the thought of reporting back here made me go.
I do five minute blocks of quite intense workout.
Lateral trainer
Treadmill
Weights
Lateral trainer
Cross trainer
Weights
Lateral trainer
Bike
Weights
Which adds up to 45 minutes
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Yesterday I did just over 15,000 steps and had 93 'active' minutes, which included 53 minutes at a Zumba class.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Friday 4th: 1 hr 15 min
Walk to gym, 50 min at gym.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Just over 8,500 steps today by which time my feet were a bit sore from sandal straps rubbing on my variegated flesh - tomorrow a day off, I think.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
my feet were a bit sore from sandal straps rubbing on my variegated flesh
There's something to be said after all for wearing socks with sandals. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 04. November 2016, 15:14: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
Woo hoo, aren't y'all doing well. Sorry for disappearing, busy week.
Here are everyone's targets:
Curiosity Killed... (maybe, health permitting) - 10,000 steps / day + walk at weekend + some cycling
Sarasa - 5,000+ steps per day + 1 fitness class & 1 swim per week
Japes - 15,000 steps per day of which 7,000+ to be aerobic steps (with one day / week 20,000 steps);
Belle Ringer - ???
Huia - ???
Welease Woderick - 12,000 steps per day, 5 days/week
SusanDoris - (no specific quantitative target - just to regain more mobility)
North East Quine - something outside every day (inside if weather bad)
Cottontail - steps per day
Boogie - gym 4 days/week (Su/M/Th/Sa)
Yangtze - 1 hr per day + 3 x week specific fitness thing (exercise class, canoeing, swim, run etc)
jacobsen work walking + min 1 mile /day
To The Pain - Complete 3 C25K runs each week + 6,000+ steps each day
blackbeard - 30 mins running 5 x / week
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
And now my update. I'm really thankful for this challenges as it's knowing you're all holding me to account forced me to get out walking after work rather than just jump on the bus home in order to get my daily hour in. Which I have managed to do. Just.
And then, even though it's raining today, I cycled my bike to the bike menders (for a service) and then walked 30 mins home IN THE RAIN just to get my time in.
Struggling to do the 3 x more hardcore sessions though - have signed up for outrigger training tomorrow which will be one of them but will have do something else on both Sunday and Monday to make three.
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Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Cottontail
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# 12234
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Posted
Nov. 3rd - 10,000 steps
Nov. 4th - 11,000 steps
I have been doing this for precisely eight days now, and have hit my target every day. I have never stuck at any exercise regime so long! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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