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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jennifer (from Hell)
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I've tried writing something "fitting" for either AS or Purgatory. I can't. not until I get this part out.
I’m profoundly fucked up about this. it intersects with my life on a couple of levels, not just knowing Jen. I’m going back and forth between disbelief, sadness and pure anger.
the anger comes from a few places. First of all, I’ve been strongly affected by suicide in my life. it’s practically a fucking theme. my grandmother, my cousin, my uncle, my HS boyfriend, and many friends. 12 at last count. I guess 13 now. God damn it. Suicide is selfish. I see where it comes, from; I know where it comes from, I’ve been on the cusp - to the point of hospitalization once when I was much younger and more prone to think that would somehow fix everything. It doesn’t. It just screws over everyone who cares for you. who you care for. and it is a “catchy” disease - suicides go in clusters. so it kills others, too.
More anger - my uncle - long ago, 93? 94? was murdered on valentines day in a very similar event. his girlfriend’s ex husband showed up, shot my uncle, his GF, her 12 year old son (the son of the shooter) and himself. in that case, they all died. motherfucker. I have no sympathy for such an act.
further anger - and it’s deep and personal. Jen was privy to the details of my divorce and the evil things my ex husband did. something very few people on the Ship know about. But Jen did. long ago, I told her I wanted to kill him. Wanted him dead with all of my being. I wanted to do it. I planned it out.
She talked me out of it. Jen - herself - is responsible for that motherfucker still being alive. and I’m eternally thankful. She was fucking right. She had all of the right reasons. She got me out of my temporary psychosis and thinking like a real human who loves her babies more than she hates the evil slimy bastard who hurt them. Jen did this.
so HOW DARE SHE do what she denied me. How dare she try to kill the motherfucker who wronged her when she made me stick around; made me be a god damned grown up and accept what had happened and make the best of it. How dare she tell me that my vengeful fantasy would do wrong, and then chose the same herself? WHAT THE FUCK?!?
I’m so messed up about this I can’t bloody think straight.
And yet - she was still right. when she was talking to me - but wrong as fuck when she made her own decision. Why the fuck didn’t she give me the chance to give her that lecture right back? she SO DESERVED IT. I want to scream at her.
How dare you. you bitch. you fucking bitch. How could you do this? How could you take the shortcut after telling me I don’t get the shortcut? What about YOUR babies, woman? I don’t care how old they are, they didn’t need this from you. I can’t even imagine what they’re dealing with. You don’t do this to your babies. YOU TOLD ME THAT.
My mother was in her 20’s when her mother took the chickenshit route and offed herself with anti-psychotics and a case of cheapass sherry. Took nobody with her, officially. unofficially she took the hearts of her two daughters, her mother, her sister. Denied me ever knowing my grandmother. fed me the guilt of knowing my birth was the impetus of her death. 38 years later my mom is still messed up about that. You did those babies no favors, Jennifer.
I hate you and I love you and I miss you and I’m raging and crying and I can’t fucking deal with this.
YOU FUCKING BITCH I love you how dare you do this.
and me? What a fucking loser friend I am to not push harder. to not follow up on the unanswered emails. to not force her to talk to me. to not be the aggressive cow she once was and make her talk. I’m not exactly the shining star in this. God damn it. damn it damn it.
how the fuck does one properly scream in print?
[edited title to show this thread was started in Hell]
[ 04. February 2012, 06:14: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Good. A Hell thread.
I never knew Jennifer, but the news of her death and the manner of it has affected me deeply for several reasons. One of them is the times I have come close to self destruction.
I said to another shipmate a while back that I had never come across any books that dealt honestly with our disappointment with God. More than that: everything I have ever read or heard about the feeling of being betrayed by God has always stopped short of where I often fell I am with him. And if something stops short of my experience, it sure as hell stops short of the experience of plenty of other people. The fact is, some of us are disappointed by God every day of our lives. Let down by him. Betrayed by him. Ultimately abandoned by him. And don't anybody fucking tell me that isn't true.
There is one foul, sadistic thought that's of great consolation to me this morning. (Yeah, I'm a petty cruel bastard: Nice Adeodatus is Not In To Callers today.) It's the medieval idea that every Mass is a re-presentation of Calvary. Today, I like that idea. Because it means that the next time I take that bread into my hands and say those words, I can pour into it all the anger and betrayal of myself and my congregation and my friends. And I can put that sick fucker back on the Cross where he belongs.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
don't pray for me, Boogie. bring her back so I can shake her til her teeth rattle.
Adeodatus - damn fucking straight.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
how the fuck does one properly scream in print?
No idea, but that was a bloody good effort.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There is one foul, sadistic thought that's of great consolation to me this morning. (Yeah, I'm a petty cruel bastard: Nice Adeodatus is Not In To Callers today.) It's the medieval idea that every Mass is a re-presentation of Calvary. Today, I like that idea. Because it means that the next time I take that bread into my hands and say those words, I can pour into it all the anger and betrayal of myself and my congregation and my friends. And I can put that sick fucker back on the Cross where he belongs.
And recrucify the innocent fully human man that was killed as a by product of pure human evil.
Didn't they teach you trinitarian theology at clergy school asshole?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There is one foul, sadistic thought that's of great consolation to me this morning. (Yeah, I'm a petty cruel bastard: Nice Adeodatus is Not In To Callers today.) It's the medieval idea that every Mass is a re-presentation of Calvary. Today, I like that idea. Because it means that the next time I take that bread into my hands and say those words, I can pour into it all the anger and betrayal of myself and my congregation and my friends. And I can put that sick fucker back on the Cross where he belongs.
And recrucify the innocent fully human man that was killed as a by product of pure human evil.
Yes. Your point?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You really are sick if you wish that on any human being.
Christ on a pointy stick, but you have no concept of reaching people in distress do you ? How the hell do you expect to offer pastoral care ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You really are sick if you wish that on any human being.
you'll never fucking get it, will you, you utterly brick-ignorant cow? life must be so gentle to you.
the thing is - IT DIDN'T WORK. this "god" idiot sent the one to suffer for all, so that we could find our way out of this stupid fucking quagmire and it was all a waste. We're useless. we're more fucked up than we ever were. it did NOTHING. nothing but give people a handy excuse, a little cause to hang the hat of their evil on. redemption? forgiveness? what a load of bullshit. We'll never get it. we'll never figure it out.
hang all of the innocents of all the world on every cross you can slap together with every 2x4 handy and we'll never get it fucking right. it's not about being sick, it's about facing the motherfucking facts. it was all a waste.
and meanwhile, we'll just keep pounding those nails. and feeling fucking righteous about it. drawing our little lines and designating our little in- and out-crowds and letting people suffer and die every fucking day while we bitch about bloody traffic or difficult relatives at christmas dinner because WE WERE NEVER WORTH IT.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You really are sick if you wish that on any human being.
Christ on a pointy stick, but you have no concept of reaching people in distress do you ? How the hell do you expect to offer pastoral care ?
Oh yeah. I keep forgetting Hell is all about pastoral care.
Oh and Comet?
The reason she couldn't listen to her own advice but you could?
She was weak and you were strong.
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a theological scrapbook
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You really are sick if you wish that on any human being.
I told you I was, didn't I?
Right here, right now, you know what I would do if I had a time machine? I would go to Calvary. And I would wait for that moment, that instant, when he realised that Sky Daddy wasn't going to come and save him. When he didn't scream "Have you forsaken me?" but "Why have you forsaken me?" When he felt, like a knife in his guts, the knowledge of what God does to his creation every second of every day: he leaves it to sink in the shit.
And that would be good. It would be good to hear God's own Son scream those words. Because for some of us those are the words we scream at God every single day of our miserable fucking lives.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You really are sick if you wish that on any human being.
Christ on a pointy stick, but you have no concept of reaching people in distress do you ? How the hell do you expect to offer pastoral care ?
Oh yeah. I keep forgetting Hell is all about pastoral care.
It's certainly not about being a dickhead for the sake of it. If you don't believe what you posted - don't troll. If you do believe it, and don't see why people would express such thoughts at a time like this, then you have a major problem.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Oh I dunno Double think.
Angry people?
Let's take it out on Evensong.
It'll make em feel better.
Hell, I'm offering a public service. I should start charging.
And yeah.....I do believe what I'm posting.
[ 28. December 2011, 11:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Right here, right now, you know what I would do if I had a time machine? I would go to Calvary. And I would wait for that moment, that instant, when he realised that Sky Daddy wasn't going to come and save him. When he didn't scream "Have you forsaken me?" but "Why have you forsaken me?" When he felt, like a knife in his guts, the knowledge of what God does to his creation every second of every day: he leaves it to sink in the shit.
And that would be good. It would be good to hear God's own Son scream those words. Because for some of us those are the words we scream at God every single day of our miserable fucking lives.
I like you a lot.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Evensong's a vulture Think. Not a word in All Saints, not a word in Purgatory, but if she smells carrion in Hell, she swoops.
And always gets it wrong.
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Even more so than I was before
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think this thread would benefit from not being all about you, again. So if you have nothing useful to add - why not fuck off and do something else. Hell, its Christmas, you could go visit your inlaws.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Yeah. Fair point.
I will withdraw.
Even tho I had a bone to pick with Adeodatus's post about Christ on the cross and comet's notion that it was all for naught.
Disagree on both points.
But will withdraw.
[ 28. December 2011, 11:23: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
[redacted due to crossposts]
[ 28. December 2011, 11:23: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Yeah. Fair point.
I will withdraw.
Thankyou, and I mean that sincerely.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Having been through the depths of depression in the past I can understand someone killing themselves. I can even understand wanting to kill evil slime that hurt you and your kids. What I can't understand is taking innocent people with you. If there is one thing to be thankful for in this utterly hideous situation it's that the child and mother didn't die. I don't know what the circumstances of the marriage were, but I do hope the ex-husband does some serious contemplating of his part in what happened. It takes a lot to push a woman this far over the edge - to the point of shooting a child along with the adults.
Comet, be easier on yourself. Even if you'd persisted and had the tough lecture with Jennifer, it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome. She knew your story and gave the lecture to you herself. And my prayers will be with everyone involved in this horror story.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I absolutely will not accept that we can just blame the victim like that. Reverse the genders and would we say that ?
[ETA if I understand various internet sources correctly, ex-husband was hit three times, his new partner was shot in the face, the child was shot in the hand. I don't believe she meant to hit the child.]
[ 28. December 2011, 11:39: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
You know, I was with Evensong on this one, I must say: you can definitely take the sick, vicious, stick-it-to-the-(Son-of-)Man rant too far. And yes, I'm looking at you, Fr Adeodatus. But you don't want to hear that, so I make the comment and immediately withdraw too.
But I also think the OP is a grade A, five-star gem of a Hell post. I hear you, sister.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I absolutely will not accept that we can just blame the victim like that. Reverse the genders and would we say that ?
Which post were you referring to. I wasn't blaming the victim - if you're referring to ex. I'm glad he isn't dead as well, though I didn't say it. I was thinking more of the child as the truly innocent party and just how far over the edge Jennifer had to be to do that. I can't imagine the pain and darkness that would provoke that. There is no excuse for the taking of another life or trying to take it, even though circumstances and the hurt/damage resulting may make one wish you could kill the bastard who caused it. There are no winners/losers or non victims in this - just a lot of very hurt people and the loss of a person who did much for others.
ETA: Just read your edit. Jennifer had to know the child could be killed when she fired multiple shots. Especially when some of those bullets were aimed at mom. She was just too deep in the black hole to think it through or possibly even care by that point. I feel for her as much as the victims, possibly in this situation where I wouldn't in others because this was a person I respected here and from what I've read others post about her who knew her IRL, including comet's excellent hell post.
[ 28. December 2011, 11:50: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I absolutely will not accept that we can just blame the victim like that. Reverse the genders and would we say that ?
I don't think it's gender related, but otherwise I agree with you. Jen's husband is responsible for his own actions. Jen's response was not a fitting retribution at all. he has no guilt from the harm she did. that was all her.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
You know, I was with Evensong on this one, I must say: you can definitely take the sick, vicious, stick-it-to-the-(Son-of-)Man rant too far. And yes, I'm looking at you, Fr Adeodatus. But you don't want to hear that, so I make the comment and immediately withdraw too.
Oh good. I can retaliate in peace.
Later.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Thankyou Double think for posting what I would have. Niteowl's blaming of the victim is horrible.
Fuck me, comet ... you're honesty and emotion is amazing. No words of comfort here, just admiration for a level of honesty I don't think I am capable of.
Adeodatus - wow. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
If God cannot handle emotion like that, what is the point of him?
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I was thinking more of the child as the truly innocent party
I feel you are implying that the adults who were shot were partly responsible for the fact they were attacked. And I do not accept that. I wouldn't accept it as a reasonable statement in any other domestic violence situation either. Responsibility for violence rests with the person who carries it out - if they have mental capacity at that time - not those harmed by it.
[ 28. December 2011, 11:54: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
There is no excuse for the taking of another life or trying to take it, even though circumstances and the hurt/damage resulting may make one wish you could kill the bastard who caused it.
I'm sorry but I disagree. some people need to be stopped from hurting others. sometimes the government gets so caught up in it's own loopholes it doesn't do it.
However, sometimes the person needing to be made dead is not worth the collateral damage of other lives irreversibly damaged. So you suck it up and move on.
quote:
... and from what I've read others post about her who knew her IRL, including comet's excellent hell post.
for the record, I never met Jen in person - unless phone calls and email count.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Suze
Ship's Barmaid
# 5639
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I don't know what the circumstances of the marriage were, but I do hope the ex-husband does some serious contemplating of his part in what happened. It takes a lot to push a woman this far over the edge - to the point of shooting a child along with the adults.
That does sound "blame the victim" - he has no reason to contemplate his part in what happened, he's been the victim of a terrible attack.
I don't know what drives someone to such desparate measures but don't think recognising jlg's actions as awful diminishes in any way the love and care people here had for her or suggests that she is unworthy of that love. To do less minimises the impact on the other people caught up in this, at least one of whom loved her at some point, and is disrespectful of the person she was, light and dark togeher.
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' You stay here and I'll go look for God, that won't be hard cos I know where he's not, and I will bring him back with me , then he'll listen , then he'll see' Richard Shindell
Posts: 2603 | From: where the angels sleep | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
In response to Nightowl's edit above:
I think many of us do feel for jlg, because we knew her in some way or another. She was probably reckless of the child's safety, but I think it is important that she probably was not actively trying to kill that child. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part - and trying to see a light in the darkness.
It is different that we know jlg in some sense. Probably behoves us in future to remember this when read about some other shooter - and not write them off as some one-dimensional evil being. Its so easy to do when you have no connection.
But, and I think it does have to be said, although there was that of God in jlg (as there is in everyone) she did something that was evil. In a true sense of that word. Probably because she was desperate and despairing. Maybe because she was drunk too. But that doesn't negate all the good she did in her life, or put her beyond the reach of the grace of God.
And we can not simply assume that her ex must have done something terrible to her. We don't know that.
[Crossposted again]
[ 28. December 2011, 12:05: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
and from what I've read others post about her who knew her IRL, including comet's excellent hell post.
for the record, I never met Jen in person - unless phone calls and email count.
It does judging by how personal those phone calls and emails were. I've got a couple of valuable friends from years online that I've never met, but through phone and email messages we're solid friends - and gut level honest with each other, including the bad and the ugly, which counts far more than a face to face meeting without the honesty. Unfortunately, there may be times when someone is in so much pain they disappear - figuratively and at times literally.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Probably behoves us in future to remember this when read about some other shooter - and not write them off as some one-dimensional evil being. Its so easy to do when you have no connection.
Thanks for this. This debate is weird for me because it's the other way round from what I'm used to. I know personally so many inmates who are just that for so many other people and (for whom the facts as reported by the media are often inaccurate).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Flausa
Mad Woman
# 3466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Right here, right now, you know what I would do if I had a time machine? I would go to Calvary. And I would wait for that moment, that instant, when he realised that Sky Daddy wasn't going to come and save him. When he didn't scream "Have you forsaken me?" but "Why have you forsaken me?" When he felt, like a knife in his guts, the knowledge of what God does to his creation every second of every day: he leaves it to sink in the shit.
And that would be good. It would be good to hear God's own Son scream those words. Because for some of us those are the words we scream at God every single day of our miserable fucking lives.
I've been struggling to make sense of it all in light of Advent and Christmas. To recognize that in spite of the incarnation, shit still exists. The darkness is still with us. To hear that God made flesh hung in the shit and screamed and railed against it ... and died ... and rose again ... and still the shit exists. We grapple against the shit and still it exists. And Jen took a way out of the shit that created more shit. It makes absolutely no fucking sense.
Posts: 4610 | From: bonny Scotland | Registered: Oct 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2: I was thinking more of the child as the truly innocent party
I feel you are implying that the adults who were shot were partly responsible for the fact they were attacked. And I do not accept that. I wouldn't accept it as a reasonable statement in any other domestic violence situation either. Responsibility for violence rests with the person who carries it out - if they have mental capacity at that time - not those harmed by it. [/qb]
As I said, no one deserves being shot or killed. I don't know the state of the marriage, was possibly influence by the OP concerning "bastards needing killing for hurting the kids". I can relate to that. That and the shooter being who she was in her years here on SoF - on and off the ship. And I was angry hearing about the child who was absolutely innocent by any stretch of the imagination. On that count I'll cut my losses and quit commenting on the ex. As I also said, they're all victims in this. As well as everyone related to Jennifer and who knew her. Ain't no victims/non victims, regardless how awful jlg's actions were.
[ 28. December 2011, 12:24: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I was thinking more of the child as the truly innocent party
I feel you are implying that the adults who were shot were partly responsible for the fact they were attacked. And I do not accept that. I wouldn't accept it as a reasonable statement in any other domestic violence situation either. Responsibility for violence rests with the person who carries it out - if they have mental capacity at that time - not those harmed by it.
But then it's possible that someone can torment someone (verbally, or using physical abuse, or both) to the extent of wearing down the person's mental health until it snaps, and in that case I'd say they have some responsibility for that.
I have no idea what happened in this particular case, but I do think that in general, responsibility is more complicated than what you are saying. For instance, if I were to bully someone to the extent that they became more and more mentally fragile and snapped and killed someone, then I think in God's eyes I would be partly responsible. Even if the person killed was me.
And in a situation where we don't know, I think it's natural to wonder what part the other people played, and be aware of a wider context that we don't know about. But I agree we can't assume anything.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
....tiptoeing in with theological stuff likely of very little consequence right now.....
I don't think of humanity as redeemed anymore. I see it more as a process, a spark in stubble that started a while ago, but the entire field is not on fire yet. For some reason that little divine spark in some people seems to disappear, get quashed, burns out or something. I don't know why.
I can only say I'm sorry and I'll pray. I know thats cold comfort, but I think it's all I can do.
............tiptoeing straight out again.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
how the fuck does one properly scream in print?
It depends on who you are screaming at.
If you are screaming at jlg what's the point? Of course you want to. But you can't it's too late.
If you want to scream at God, go ahead. I have got to the point of attempting suicide, but I couldn't do it, I was too weak to go through with it. So I screamed at God till I was red in the face. Then screamed till I was too exhausted to stand. Then screamed some more until I could cry no more. Then you whimper at God.
Does God answer? Yes.
Not with silence, but by sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting back "Na na na na na na I'm not listening."
Yes God does forsake us when we need him most.
I posted on the all saints thread two words, "Oh Fuck." I posted it in AS because that's where prayers belong. But of all the threads this is the one that has made me cry.
So here I am, admitting to my vulnerability in Hell. Big target sign on my own back. Come on you bastards, give it your best shot.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
wrote all the above while closing up the bar at work (well, not the OP. wrote it earlier and made myself sit on it for 10 hours) and then drove home.
damn near ate shit TWICE as two separate bullwinkles decided to tapdance their way into the road, too. bastards.
anyway, one thought kept going through my head as I drove, and I think it's important: never believe for an instant that you have not had an impact. We all have. every damned one of us have impacted others, both here and in our other lives. We're not one of us alone in this world.
When things are shitty, we need to remember that.
[ 28. December 2011, 12:36: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
this place needs a like button
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
the thing is - IT DIDN'T WORK. this "god" idiot sent the one to suffer for all, so that we could find our way out of this stupid fucking quagmire and it was all a waste. We're useless. we're more fucked up than we ever were. it did NOTHING. nothing but give people a handy excuse, a little cause to hang the hat of their evil on. redemption? forgiveness? what a load of bullshit. We'll never get it. we'll never figure it out.
hang all of the innocents of all the world on every cross you can slap together with every 2x4 handy and we'll never get it fucking right. it's not about being sick, it's about facing the motherfucking facts. it was all a waste.
and meanwhile, we'll just keep pounding those nails. and feeling fucking righteous about it. drawing our little lines and designating our little in- and out-crowds and letting people suffer and die every fucking day while we bitch about bloody traffic or difficult relatives at christmas dinner because WE WERE NEVER WORTH IT.
This.
God supposedly created my fucked up self in his image and I'm trapped here to suffer. I suffer every day and it will only increase. Yet I'm forbidden to die, even though I was not asked to be given life. A life of flawed DNA and nothing but cruelty.
Yet I must wait on god to "take me home" after I linger in torment til he's satisfied. And if Jesus' death on the cross did nothing to heal and fix any of us, how can I believe there is a heaven awaiting me, if I let god kill me in his time? I already attempted suicide once and was almost out of here - but no, god had to decide I hadn't endured enough and yank me back.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
Re: the OP. It is always far easier to give good advice to other people than to take appropriate action oneself. You really ought to keep your house cleaner. I however can't seem to process one envelope on that huge pile of mail on the dining room table. That is such a truism I can't even get upset about it.
But another truism is that we almost never really know others. Not really. And I have been too often too surprised by people over the last half century or so to be much surprised at all anymore.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
So, I’m sitting in a hotel in Chicago eating my “all you can eat buffet” breakfast chatting to this guy who is on the same conference as me. He’s a quiet guy and I had not really had a chance to talk to him. Plus he’s a charismatic and everyone knows you should stay away from them mad bastards.
But he’s cool, funny self deprecating, honest and there is something about him, our talk starts to go deep. I end up quizzing him about this thing that happens to me now and then (my thinking is that as a charismatic he’s used to God talking to him whereas I am decidedly not). The thing is in my darkest moments I swear I can hear God asking “Have you have had enough yet?”
God seems to be saying “I will stop, just say you have had enough.” My charismatic friend looks at me perplexed and I sit there thinking; huh see you can’t help me either. Then this most odd smile crosses his face and he said “What He says to me at those times is “So you are leaving me too.”
AtB, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
I don't really care if my saying this pisses off everyone who reads it.
I can believe those here who admit to having dealt with thoughts of suicide; you are not alone in that.
I can believe that some of you have longed to kill that person by whom you have felt trapped, bullied, betrayed, perhaps even destroyed yet left to still walk around.
You are not alone in that either.
BUT - having watched a 14-year-old friend die in front of me, after being shot in the stomach with a twelve-gauge shotgun in the hands of his deranged stepbrother, I will scream this:
If you have ever had any of those feelings, and you have any fucking guns in your home, stop what you are doing right now. This very second.
Pick up the telephone and call the police.
Ask them to come to your home, pick up your guns, take them away, and destroy them.
Don't wait to think it through. Just fucking well do it. Right now.
Sucide wounds more than the one who takes their own life.
Yeah, I think we get that.
Suicide by gun gives too many opportunities to take others along.
Get the fucking guns out of your home and out of your reach, and never own another gun in your lifetime, if you have even an inkling that you might use it to kill yourself or another person.
Do it right fucking now.
If you aren't certain whether or not it is you I am speaking to now - yes it fucking well is.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Speaking of collateral damage -- how ironic is it that today is Holy Innocents Day, when the Church cries what might be perceived by some as crocodile tears -- "The babies! The babies!"-- over what the Gospel narrative implies is an example of God's collateral damage in service to his own chosen story line.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
This is not easy stuff to deal with, and I don't think it helps to assess the measure of another Shipmates's reaction (to the event, the person or to God).
Grief is a complicated process and includes--among other things--a fair amount of anger with inner or outer screams.
Many of our so-called civilized societies no longer have an all-out public acceptance for the pain/anger/despair associated with death. So we are left to convention (rarely up to the task) and dark, private moments.
My brother committed suicide by alcohol in October. At times I wanted to be able to tear my hair, rip my clothing, and hiss all my pent up emotion.
Instead, a dear relative and I got into an horrible argument and are still not speaking.
Even though sometimes I think posting in Hell becomes a little game in itself, I'm really glad we have this board right now.
For many of us the Ship is so much more than a humorous website with a discussion board. It has a level of community that I think is rare--which makes Jennifer's actions and suicide extremely overwhelming.
sabine
[ 28. December 2011, 14:05: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Evensong's a vulture Think. Not a word in All Saints, not a word in Purgatory, but if she smells carrion in Hell, she swoops.
[nothing to do with the OP and certainly not a defense of Evensnog's remark]
PeteC considers himself the Ship judge of Goodness and bases it on things like number of posts in All Saints vs posts in Hell. WTF?
Never once considering that posts in All Saints tend to center around people who are able to go to Meets, and people who feel liked and accepted enough here, to ask for support and prayer.
I can't speak for anyone else, but most of my ventures into the rarified arena of All Saints were usually slapped down immediately. For example, after all the thousands of posts on the AS United States threads, I ventured to ask a question there one time and was immediately told to go away by, who else?, then host PeteC of course, who, for years, kept All Saints an exclusive preserve of people and threads he, and he alone, deemed worthy.
I think it's much better now but I still don't have the All Saints habit and it's nothing to do with being a vulture. Mostly it's because I start at the top (Styx) and skim my way down. I'm usually caught up reading a thread in Purg or posting in Heaven or Hell long before I make it that far.
Number of posts in All Saints, indeed. I'll bet PeteC always volunteered to "take names" when the teacher was out of the room.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
I rarely post in general, and even more rarely in Hell, but what Adeodatus said...fuck yes.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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