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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Anglo-catholicism for beginners
CorgiGreta
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# 443

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Ruth W:

Some other possibilities:

Ascension, Sierra Madre
St. Mary, Palms area of West L.A.
Blessed Sacrament, Placentia
St. Nicholas, Encino

St. Philips, South Cental L.A. may still be A/C

St. Mary of the Angels, Hollywood/Los Feliz, once an A./C. shrine, is now a thriving splinter group. Holy Apostles, Glendale, once more Catholic than the Pope, splintered and is either terminal or dead. I think the same thing happened to Our Saviour, Wilshire corridor.

I would consider St. James, Wilshire, to be the last remaining high church in L.A., and even it may be motr now. I am not very familiar with the four churches in Long Beach, but I seem to recall that St. Luke's was rather high several years ago. I would guess that you attend All Saints.

Greta


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CorgiGreta
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Ruth W:

I'm totally confused on the Long Beach churches. I now think All Saints is A./C. with a twist of evangelicalism. Is St. Luke's the big neo-gothic pile that used to have a boy choir? Years ago, when I visited it, I had the impression that it was quite high, yet I have a feeling that it is your church, unless you are a baseball fan and attend St. Thomas.

Greta


Greta


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Edward Green
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On High church and Anglo-Catholicism.

High and Low church existed prior to the Oxford movement, in fact the EA (so loved by many evangelicals ) developed as a reaction to the Anglo-Catholic revival. You can have High church Methodists, High church Lutherans, High Church URC, but they are not Metho-Catholics or whatever.

Anglo-Catholicism today has a lot to do with Spirituality, but it is also theological. What lead me to Anglo-Catholicism was a rejection of the idea that the Church had been a complete cock ever since the early church that had only been restored in the 1970s / 1900's / Reformation. So being catholic to me is saying that God has been at work growing his church for 2000 years, not making it perfect, but making living tradition important. The other thing that lead me to catholicism was rejecting the leader + converts view of church to a wider understanding of what Priesthood is, both as church as priesthood and as individuals ordered by the church to represent that.

Anyone who has read as widely as me (grin) in Evangelicalism will know that such views can be found within broad and liberal evangelicalism. It is rare though. I found one church that shared my ideas in the whole of the UK, and they were probably a wee bit too charismatic for me. There are real Liberal Evangelicals Anglican churches about but lots of people seem to call themselves that and then are not.

What clinched it for me I suppose was the Liturgy. After years of being one of the brave ones who would go up the front and pray and prophesy all of a sudden everyone in the gathering could say something TOGETHER! I almost cried. I was already fairly "High" in my worship due to my interest in creative worship.

On a personal note I still enjoy Low church worship, I have been known to wave my hands, and find speaking in tongues helpful (as many Catholics have done for 2000 years!). I find a some evangelical teaching painful, but I always did. Evangelical heroes include Pinnock, Peirse and Brow.

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Fiddleback
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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The traditional understanding is that our prayer and the way we pray precedes and underlies our theology, not the other way round. Can someone whose Latin is better than mine provide the precise Latin?----Something about "orandi" and "credendi" as I recall.

Just put 'lex' in front of each word and you've got it.


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Amos

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Lex orandi lex credendi!

Thanks, Father!

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken


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Hooker's Trick

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Heard in a sermon in a prominent Washington parish:

"It is often observed in these days that Christians, like Muslims, are people of the Book. That is untrue. We are not people of a book. We are people of an encounter. 2000 years ago, humanity encountered as much of God as we could stand, and that was Christ Jesus. The Anglican Church prolongs and recreates that encounter. We re-encounter Christ when we are baptised into his death, when we are absolved of our sins, and when we make our Communion, day by day, week by week, over the whole history of the life of the Church."

This may help to explain the emphasis some of us place on the sacraments.

HT


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Newman's Own
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Hooker, that quote is marvellous - astonishing. Thank you!

I know you do not describe yourself as Anglo-Catholic, but you've managed to provide one of the most truly Catholic explanations on the thread.

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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the famous rachel
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Hi Everyone,

I'm back - for this evening at least. I've got a nasty cold after my weekend's exertions but, buoyed up by Lemsip with honey, I think I may be able to make some cogent responses to this thread. If it all comes out as gobbledegook forgive me.


quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
Rachel - yes, 'whole body' worship is a similarity. However, there are differences - spontaneity can have down-sides just as rigidity can. Taking part in ritual worship can do as Amos says - subsume the self into the corporate, which I said before is important for a church. Evo hand-waving is different because if everyone is waving as the Spirit moves them then they are not taking part in a bigger corporate action in as obvious a way.


So where is the middle way? Is there a way of “doing church” which both allows the individual to express the way in which the spirit is touching them, and involves big corporate actions at the same time ?

quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
I feel quite strongly about this after two experiences in particular.

I can understand how your experiences have affected your thinking here, and in some ways you may be right. My personal reaction, however, is that although, yes, the type of “spirit-lead” worship to which I am used can go badly wrong, it is important to try and allow God to have His way with a congregation as with an individual, and hence trying to constrain/control charismatic worship would be disrespectful to His awesome power. Having said that, there are ways in which safeguards can and should be put in place to prevent abuse of this freedom, if a Charismatic Evo congregation is serious about God, rather than just up for a dizzying and weird experience or several. More on this perhaps in the E/P for Beginners thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
With the caveat that my explanations may be awkward, perhaps setting forth a few points may be helpful.

Thankyou Newman’s Own for your explanations, which far from being awkward have been most helpful. The confusing thing is that whilst I set out expecting to disagree with you, I mostly found myself nodding and saying “Yes, I’d go with that” as I read your post. Please, everyone, realise, that I am talking from the point of view of my personal theology here, not from an “official” Evangelical standpoint.

quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:

In a Catholic perspective, we are weak and sinful, but still possess a longing for God. Contrary to what one may think, the focus is .... on intimacy with God that begins here.


Leaving aside your comments about heaven for now, partly because I’m not sure where I stand, I would absolutely agree with the idea that whilst we have all sinned, we still all yearn for God, and that the focus of our Christian lives should be an intimacy with God in the now, rather than a completion of a personal checklist of tasks to get us into heaven.

quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
If a Catholic asks the intercession of saints, for example, this is by no means any sign of thinking one needs "mediators," or that one cannot "approach God directly." Just as love includes praying for others during this life, our friends in heaven do the same.

This is at least, to me, an acceptable explanation of the whole talking to Saints business. Again, I don’t want to sidetrack this thread onto the temporal relation of earth to heaven. Even ignoring that point, I still don’t quite understand this. If I heard of a particularly lovely vicar on the other side of the world, but had never met him, I might admire him, but I would not consider asking him to pray for me as a friend. After all, he doesn’t know me. So, why do you feel close enough to the saints to ask them to pray for you? And, why can’t you ask your loved ones who have gone to heaven ahead of you to pray for you?

quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:

One key Catholic point is that, while Scripture is primary (and, indeed, sacramental... but I'd best not get off on that tangent), divine revelation is dynamic.

OK, so I’m a charismatic – at least in theory – and therefore have to agree with the idea of God continuing to reveal stuff to us. And, incidentally, I do think Communion is very important. Where possible, I like to take communion once a week. This is partly because I believe Jesus commanded us to remember him in this way, and partly because I feel that through Communion the Spirit can work within us, and reveal Christ to us more clearly – partly because this is an act we perform in obedience to him. I know this isn’t the same as believing in the Real Prescence, but it may be as close as I can get.

quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Catholicism does not see one's prosperity (health, worldly goods, whatever) as an indication of divine favour or its lack.

Nor in any healthy form should Protestantism (IMO).

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Lex orandi lex credendi!

The whole question of the differences and similarities between the terms High Church and Anglocatholic have left me entirely confused I'm afraid, so I shall leave you all to decide what’s what!

In the meantime, some more questions:

1) What do ACs think about Mary, and how does this differ from the RC viewpoint?
2) Do any AC churches have confessionals, like RC churches do?
3) What is the significance of (a) processions, (b) alters and (c) rood screens?

Thanks again for all your help,

All the best,

Rachel.

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Hooker's Trick

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Newman's Own: Would it surprise you to know that the quote was heard in a semon delivered during Mattins?

Apologies about the High Church/Anglo-Catholicism confusion. I knew I shouldn't have trod there. To the vast majority, High Church and Anglo-Catholic are synonymous.

However (as with everything) there are exceptions. I wonder if our Edward (sacred trois) would describe himself as Anglo-Catholic but not High.

And there are some High Churchmen who uphold ceremonial, sacramentalism (and are usually Prayer-Book fanatics) who would not describe themselves as "catholic".

But that's all esoterica.

HT


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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I wonder if our Edward (sacred trois) would describe himself as Anglo-Catholic but not High.

I was gonna answer this post ... but then i got high ...

oooohoooo

<ahem>

Sorry.

I think I am probably both. I am just very liberal liturgicaly.

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Stephen
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Now what on earth have you been drinking S3???It is I who has been to Christmas dinner.Sober as a judge....hic!!
Right try to be serious....as a GLHCP......
I thought that Joan's post on scripture,reason,and tradition/experience expressed fairly closely where I'm at,but because I'm an a la carte person,I hesitate before calling myself a "Catholic".....it may give people ideas that are not quite right!
I liked HT's last post....I suspect our positions are very similar,although I'm not a BCP "fundamentalist" for want of a better word.
I realise this may be a bit confusing for Rachel but what I think I would say is that whilst there are different views within Evangelicalism - some accept evolution,others don't as one example - so also there are within "High" Church Christianity......and that's human nature I'd guess

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Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Chorister

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What is a GLHCP (sounds like the noise you make when you've had too much to drink - which may be true tonight in your case, Stephen, but I'm sure that's not what you really meant by it)

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Stephen
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GLHCP=Good Little High Church Person
I used to think I was a GLN but I now realise I was wrong all along and am really a GLR

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Chorister

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Aaaargh, I can't keep up with all these abbreviations! I only speak Long. I reckon you're all only doing it to be annoying (and succeeding!)

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Newman's Own
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quote:
Originally posted by rachel_o:
The whole question of the differences and similarities between the terms High Church and Anglocatholic have left me entirely confused I'm afraid, so I shall leave you all to decide what’s what!</QB>
Rachel, even those of us who call ourselves Anglo-Catholic or High Church can be equally confused!


[QUOTE][QB]
1) What do ACs think about Mary, and how does this differ from the RC viewpoint?
2) Do any AC churches have confessionals, like RC churches do?
3) What is the significance of (a) processions, (b) alters and (c) rood screens?


In answer to one question that I did not quote - I'm afraid I'm at loss to explain it, but I do feel very close to our heavenly friends - and not only those "raised to the altars," but my personal friends whose earthly lives have ended.

Mary: Many of us are devoted to her, as you would see from other threads on the Ship. However, we are not likely to accept all of the RC dogmas related to Mary - Immaculate Conception, Assumption - and, even amongst those who do, would not want to see anything imposed as an article of belief that does not have a scriptural basis. By contrast (well, at least in theory), RCs must accept these dogmas as a part of divine revelation.

Many Anglicans find sacramental confession valuable (as I do), but there is no obligation of confession in the Anglican Church. Roman Catholics, if they are conscious of a grave sin committed with full reflection and consent, are supposed to make sacramental confession of the sin before they next take Holy Communion (or at least make their act of contrition with the intention of making sacramental confession.) Some Anglo-Catholic churches do have the Roman-style confessional (St Mary's, Bourne Street, for example)... quite frankly, one Roman furnishing that I do not miss. (Part of what is strengthening in the action of sacramental confession is the sense of not being alone with the grief - and there aren't too many places where one feels more alone than in a close, dark box where one cannot even see the priest.)

The rest I'll leave to others on the board - who are far more tat-expert than I.

--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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Carys

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quote:
The whole question of the differences and similarities between the terms High Church and Anglocatholic have left me entirely confused I'm afraid, so I shall leave you all to decide what’s what!

It's left me fairly confused too. To further muddy the waters, I'd describe myself as quite High, and Catholic even, but I'm not an Anglo-Catholic.

I think the problem is how we are using the terms. To me, Anglo-Catholic implies the tat and the concern with ritual which leaves me cold, though I love liturgy and theologically I'm quite high in that I'm sacramental and my spirituality is more Catholic than anything. I think that HT's position might be similar from what he's said but he's using AC in a different way to me, I think we may even be using High and Anglo-Catholic the opposite way around.

Does that make any sense? Or have I just confused you all further?

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise


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Stephen
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To me High Church is not as strong a term as Anglo-Catholic;the latter seems to imply accepting the whole lot the former more a la carte
I think I'm confused now....

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Amos

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"Ritualism" is the usual derogatory term for tat-loving.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Stephen
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Which actually relates to ceremonial and not to ritual!

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Ruth W:

I'm totally confused on the Long Beach churches. I now think All Saints is A./C. with a twist of evangelicalism. Is St. Luke's the big neo-gothic pile that used to have a boy choir? Years ago, when I visited it, I had the impression that it was quite high, yet I have a feeling that it is your church, unless you are a baseball fan and attend St. Thomas.

Greta


Greta, you seem to know Long Beach's Episcopal Churches quite well!

St. Thomas' lost its chief Dodger fan -- Greg Larkin was called to St. Columba's in Camarillo earlier this year. All Saints are Baptists with liturgy. I go to St. Luke's, which is a neo-gothic pile that used to have a fantastic boys' choir.

And I thought we were comparatively high, but I'm not sure since my experience is so limited. And what is generally described as high-church practice in MW sounds like what we do at Christmas, Easter and Pentecost, not every Sunday. We have Evensong monthly, if that counts for being high. When I was out of town last Christmas the Christmas Eve service I went to made me realize that not everyone knows how to put on the elaborate formal service -- I had taken it for granted.

Greta and Spike: Thank you for the recommendations of AC places with tat -- I'll check one of them out and see how my parish compares.


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Anna B
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In response to Rachel's question about confessionals, which I cannot figure out how to quote without making a mess, my parish has them.

(Oh, goodness, now you all are perfectly equipped to zero in on me, because there is only one Episcopal church between New York and Boston that does.)

Rumor has it that occasionally the sisters from a nearby R.C. convent bring their novices here to see the confessionals, all the while stage-whispering, "This is how it USED to be!"

I'm not certain how often they are used. I myself am preparing for sacramental confession---my first, at age 32!---and I know I'd really rather not go in there. It does seem as though it would not help any with what promises to be a very intense encounter.

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Hooker's Trick

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Ultraspike can tell me if I'm wrong, but I believe St Ig's has some built into the wall.

St Luke's Evanston has a few shoved in the transepts -- I've never seen them used.

Sacramental confession is probably one of those things that divides a High Churchman from an Anglo-Catholic.


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Stephen
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

Sacramental confession is probably one of those things that divides a High Churchman from an Anglo-Catholic.

Yes,I think you're right.I wouldn't say I would never use it,but the matter would have to be serious.I wouldn't do it on a regular basis.
However the C-i-W has a form of Confession in its BCP and the practice seems to be retained in the Order of the Visitation of the Sick in 1662.It is also mentioned in one of the Exhortations at the 1662 Eucharist,IIRC

--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10


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Carys

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quote:
However the C-i-W has a form of Confession in its BCP and the practice seems to be retained in the Order of the Visitation of the Sick in 1662.It is also mentioned in one of the Exhortations at the 1662 Eucharist,IIRC

Well in the introduction to the form of confession in the C-i-W BCP (1984) it says, 'The practice of confessing to God in the presence of a Priest, under the seal of secrecy, was retained at the Reformation in the Book of Common Prayer and in subsequent revisions of that book'. I discovered this yesterday when I started reading the tables and rules and things in the BCP (1984), though not having an English BCP I can't look and find these forms in it.

I doubt I'd ever use auricular confession regularly but I like the BCP(1984)'s explanation of it's use, 'Those who fail by themselves to find peace of mind can, if penitnt, be assured of God's forgiveness through the exercise of this ministry. Here, too, is the opportunity to ask for informed counsel when in doubt or difficulty.'

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise


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Carys

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Sorry for the double post, but having posted the above I thought about the reaction of most of the C-i-W priests I know, were I to go to them and ask whether I could make use of this form in the prayer book. Seeing as the majority are evangelical - and often strongly so - I think it would be interesting (and probably amusing), though one of them likes the prayer book a lot so might accept it as it's there, another, I suspect, would be utterly horrified!

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise


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anglotat
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Hullo...

Having been brought up a Crade Catholic, we were made to go to confession at school regularly. What the Nuns told us and what the ordinal says may be different, but we were given cards on which to write out our sins, so we wouldn't forget to mention them in the confessional. Horrid as it may seem, it is a sobering experience. Spending some time doing this, and then actually having to say your sins out loud may not affect God's forgiveness, but it certainly increaces one's own penitence!

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The world is divided into two types of people; those who eat chocolate, and complete bitches (Dawn French)


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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

...I thought about the reaction of most of the C-i-W priests I know, were I to go to them and ask whether I could make use of this form in the prayer book. Seeing as the majority are evangelical .. it would be interesting .. though one of them likes the prayer book a lot so might accept it as it's there ...


In the days of the Church Traveller's Directory, with its useful DSCR coding, there were some funny outliers: most, as far as I recall, were unexpected C's, and were signs of strict prayer book incumbents.

For instance, my local parish church has a rather dated notice reciting the prayer book rubric and indicating that after evening prayer on Saturdays a priest will be available; so used to appear as SC in the Directory.


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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
In the days of the Church Traveller's Directory, with its useful DSCR coding, there were some funny outliers: most, as far as I recall, were unexpected C's, and were signs of strict prayer book incumbents.

Is this in some sort of code?

What was the Church Traveller's Directory

What is DSCR coding

What is an unexpected C?

You have lost me. Well done.

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Sorry for the double post, but having posted the above I thought about the reaction of most of the C-i-W priests I know, were I to go to them and ask whether I could make use of this form in the prayer book. Seeing as the majority are evangelical - and often strongly so - I think it would be interesting (and probably amusing), though one of them likes the prayer book a lot so might accept it as it's there, another, I suspect, would be utterly horrified!

Carys


I assume that what you mean is that the majority of the priests you know are evangelicals, not that the majority of CiW priests are evangelicals, which is very far from the truth.


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Young Edward, the Travellers Church Directory was jut that, a directory which could inform the sound churchman where he could find a church which practised the true faith.

The code is as follows:

D = Daily Mass
S = Sung Mass every Sunday
C = regular tmes for confession
R = Reserved Sacrament

A DSCR chucrh is what one would normally be looking for, but if in desperate straits one would make do with an SCR or less.


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Edward Green
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# 46

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Well that sounds rather good fun. Alas my Paish is a SR parish, although confession is available I fear some of our less elated parishinors would baulk at C.

However I think it would be rather fun to update this with a simple website. Anyone want to Poll all those churches?

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Stephen
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# 40

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Mine's an SR parish too,although C is available.....
Most of the clergy I know are MOTR to High....
I do know some Low Church clergy but I don't think they're Evangelical.
Space-bar is kaputt!Blast....

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Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Hooker's Trick

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# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by sacredthree:
I fear some of our less elated parishinors would baulk at C.

"elevated"?

presumably the more elated members would find themselved less in need of confession?


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Stephen
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# 40

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Now does SacredThree make spelling mistakes or typos?
I have often wondered.....

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Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

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Not sure if this is the best thread to ask this on, but hey...

What's this I hear about the newly-ordained not being allowed to administer auricular confession for three years after ordination? Is that true? If so, why? How 'hard' a rule is it? Does that mean if s/he does then the absolution pronounced is not proper, even though it comes from one in holy orders?

Also, I noticed a while ago in one of the ECUSA prayerbooks (19??) there's a version of Confession to be used if the person being confessed to is lay. How common is this, what's its status, and is there anything similar in England?

And another thing... ... where do the forms of sacramental confession in England come from - are they fully written up somewhere, like in the US?

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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


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Carys

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quote:
I assume that what you mean is that the majority of the priests you know are evangelicals, not that the majority of CiW priests are evangelicals, which is very far from the truth.

I did indeed mean the majority of those I know, which isn't a very large sample I will admit! It's the effect of living in a very Evangelical parish with the C-i-W for the past 4 years, I suspect it's given me a slightly distorted view of yr Eglwys yng Nghymru!

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise


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Edward Green
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# 46

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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Now does SacredThree make spelling mistakes or typos?
I have often wondered.....

I make "braino's" where my mind is moving ahead of my rather poor typing skills, but my spelling is in general below standard, and my reading / written vocab far exceeds the number of words I can actually pronounce. I think its something to do with the way I read.

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Stephen
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LOL,Edward.... I know the feeling.My spelling is actually OK but everyone can think themselves fortunate they do not have to decipher my handwriting.People have been known to think about asking the chemist to translate....
Same problem....mind working faster than my hand!

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
What's this I hear about the newly-ordained not being allowed to administer auricular confession for three years after ordination? Is that true? If so, why? How 'hard' a rule is it? Does that mean if s/he does then the absolution pronounced is not proper, even though it comes from one in holy orders?

Also, I noticed a while ago in one of the ECUSA prayerbooks (19??) there's a version of Confession to be used if the person being confessed to is lay. How common is this, what's its status, and is there anything similar in England?


Why not ask The Boy tomorrow Joan? I can't imagine he would let a little thing like that stand in his way.

Cosmo


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Newman's Own
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Oh, Edward and Stephen, look what you started! (Translation: I shall not be scolded by the moderator for taking a thread off track!..this time.)

Oddly enough, I have the same problem - but only on bulletin boards. (Plenty of pronunciation problems... but my writing tends to be impeccable, complete with Chancery Italic script.) Yet, when I type in this little message box, my most common error is in confusing words which sound the same - I often type "their" instead of "there," for example. I have more words mis-spelled on this board than I probably have in my life.

sigh: God's getting back at me for the days when I was an even bigger intellectual snob, and used to say that murdering the Queen's English should be a capital offense.

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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babybear
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quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Oh, Edward and Stephen, look what you started! (Translation: I shall not be scolded by the moderator for taking a thread off track!..this time.)

[grin]

Any chance of this thread getting marginally back on track?

bb
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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
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Cheers, Cosmo. Although I wasn't thinking about the Boy in my post - it's that my SD's going to be ordained next year, and I was a bit annoyed to hear about the three year rule, so wondered how strong it was... Or is it like most other things in the CofE, is you can break the rule if you want to so long as you keep it relatively quite?

Oh, and bb:

quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
[grin]

Any chance of this thread getting marginally back on track?

bb
----
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...Nah

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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


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american piskie
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# 593

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quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:

What's this I hear about the newly-ordained not being allowed to administer auricular confession for three years after ordination? Is that true? If so, why? How 'hard' a rule is it? Does that mean if s/he does then the absolution pronounced is not proper, even though it comes from one in holy orders?


There's nothing in Canon B29 (Of the Ministry of Absolution) about this, except that those without a cure of souls in the technical sense need permission to exercise such a ministry in a regular way, and I think Bishops and Incumbents don't give such permission to novices for the obvious reasons. (The BCP and Canons both insist on the need for a Discreet Minister, and discretion is hard-won.) Irregularity, I imagine, won't affect validity unless it has been connived at. There is specific authority for death-bed absolutions.

Those with a cure of souls, of course, are bound by the Canons to "provide opportunities for their parishioners to resort to [them] for spiritual counsel and advice". A parish priest who doesn't offer the big "C" can't honestly take h-er/is stipend, no matter how ecstatic it makes the flock. It's not a negotiable part of the parochial ministry.


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Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Those with a cure of souls, of course, are bound by the Canons to "provide opportunities for their parishioners to resort to [them] for spiritual counsel and advice". A parish priest who doesn't offer the big "C" can't honestly take h-er/is stipend, no matter how ecstatic it makes the flock. It's not a negotiable part of the parochial ministry.

american piskie

"Spiritual counsel and advice" sounds to me like advice (said twice). Why does it have to include confession?

Canon B29 (2), as you have said, sugggests those wishing to confess to a priest should find a discreet one, it doesn't suggest that the parish priest is automatically to be the one confessed to.

--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!


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the famous rachel
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# 1258

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Hi Everyone,

Sorry to have been missing from thread for so long - I have been working far too hard and simultaneously going to too many parties, and hence haven't had time to post. You all seem to have found some lovely tangents to play with in my abscence however!

About confessionals:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

I doubt I'd ever use auricular confession regularly but I like the BCP(1984)'s explanation of it's use, 'Those who fail by themselves to find peace of mind can, if penitnt, be assured of God's forgiveness through the exercise of this ministry. Here, too, is the opportunity to ask for informed counsel when in doubt or difficulty.'

Carys


If auricular confession is thought of in this way, I can't see that most of the evangelical churches at my end of the sprectrum would object. A fairly frequent use for the "time of ministry" in a service is for people to come and "speak out" things that they need to confess and then be prayed for by a trained person. This person will then also give advice if they feel prompted to do so. I can't see what the actual difference is between this and the practice you have dexcribed, except that in our case the trained person doesn
t have to be a vicar - it can be a lay worker at the church or an experienced member of the congregation. However, a minister is generally available if (a) the prayee would rather talk to them or (b) the prayer feel out of his/her depth.

So much for confessionals then.

May I remind you all that I still want to know about (a) processions, (b) alters and (c) rood screens?

Also, are there any churches which actually do combine the styles and theologies? For instance, I think it was Edward (S3) who talked somewhere about speaking in tongues, as something that had been done by Catholic people for centuries. I know this is true, and it is one of the (many) reasons why I don't like the cessationist viewpoint on the Charismata. The same is, I suspect, true about visions, prophecy, dreams etc. Are there any AC churches out there which actively encourage the use of these gifts whilst still maintainging their traditions? If so, how are the 2 kept in balance?

All the best,

Rachel.

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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.


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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:

"Spiritual counsel and advice" sounds to me like advice (said twice). Why does it have to include confession?

Canon B29 (2), as you have said, sugggests those wishing to confess to a priest should find a discreet one, it doesn't suggest that the parish priest is automatically to be the one confessed to.


I had wondered about this, but concluded that one had to read the Canons together, specially when they use almost identical phrases.

B29(2) indicates that those who "cannot quiet their own conscience .... come to ... a .. minister.. that [they] may receive the benefit of absolution together with ghostly comfort and advice." Canon B29(4) restricts this ministry ordinarily to those with a cure of souls in the place.

So when C24(6) obliges those with a cure of souls to "provide opportunities ... for spiritual counsel and advice" I suppose it is speaking about the same sort of thing as Canon B29. Even if "confession" were not the dominant theme of such an interchange, it would, all the same, be what is casually called "Confession", and absolution would often be part of the package.

I don't think you'd want to argue that the incumbent should "offer opportunities for spiritual counsel and advice" while making it clear that absolution definitely wouldn't be on offer? If that were to be done, how would an ordinary parishioner know that there's a Club Class option for those in the know?

I agree about the freedom of choice enjoyed by the troubled and perplexed: though Canon B29 does seem to suppose that those with a cure of souls are the ordinary ministers or at least regulators of this ministry. But my point was really that those with a cure of souls have no choice: this is as normal and obligatory a part of their public ministry as marrying and burying parishioners; and to "offer opportunities" requires some positive effort on the incumbent's part. If a notice or announcement produces opposition, then it's got to be faced down: sorry guv, part of my job-description.


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Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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american piskie

I think I follow your argument (a comment on my lack of brain power, not your argument).

Now I think that I don't entirely agree with your view, but I'm far from certain that I thinkyou're wrong either. Part of the problem is ascertaining exactly what is meant by terms like "offer opportunity" and "counsel" (ghostly or otherwise - and what a lovely phrase) and partly it's a result of the Canons talking about the same or similar things in two different places. Being our dearly-beloved CofE, I suppose a straightforward "this is the way it is" would be out of the question.

Thanks for the further explanation. I shall go away and think about it further.

--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!


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laudian
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# 381

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quote:
Originally posted by rachel_o:

About confessionals:

except that in our case the trained person doesn
t have to be a vicar - it can be a lay worker at the church or an experienced member of the congregation.


All very well, but a priest of the Church of England, unlike a lay worker, has authority committed to him to absolve sins. Look at
the Visitation of the Sick in your Prayer Book.

A rood screen is necessary if the celebrant wants to comply properly with the "north side" rubric in the order for the administration of the Lord's Supper.


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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
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*sigh*

My parish barely rates "anglo-catholic" in some definitions here: only SR and C on offer... I wish we had D... But we are bells and smells to the ceiling and theologically we are catholic to the nth degree. *sigh* Let's just sit on the Anglican fence on this one, shall we, and not start picking apart the infinite gritty details about what makes one High or A-C...

*sigh* *sob sob* I would like to be anywhere where regular auricular confession and good spiritual directors are plentiful. Sydney is such a barren wilderness... And our *ahem* A-C community is so small and everyone knows each other... I mean, hell, we have shared parish retreats and joint pilgrimages to Santiago de Compostela. All 3 or so of us parishes in the inner suburbs (the most active and integrated).

*sigh* I am sooo ready to give up.


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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf

Ship's curiosity
# 1283

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((((Nunc))))

Hang in there, honey.

--------------------
"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."


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