Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Religious Pluralism
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Welease Woderwick
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/10424.jpg) Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
This was in the yesterday's edition of my paper. I found it incredibly encouraging and shall have to seek out his book, mentioned in the last paragraph, and look out for his next when it is published.
Coincidentally we are currently seeking a particular image of Lord Ganapati, or Ganesh or Vinayaka as you please, to go in our new house, when it is finished. It will, of course, go by the main door, as I am sure David Hart meant. I have a rather beautiful modern one on my desk as I type this. [ 02. January 2007, 19:40: Message edited by: RuthW ]
-------------------- I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way. Fancy a break in South India? Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Oh really! He ought to reliquish his Anglican orders and go do his things with the UUs, or perhaps he'd find a place amongst the Society of Friends, but this man has no place amongst the clergy of an orthodox Christian communion.
Actually, I think he ought to be deposed, if this report is accurate.
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Dan the Man
Apprentice
# 11768
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Posted
I'm impressed...as a reverand, thats a big step.
"God is the same irrespective of whether you pray to him in a temple, church or mosque,"
I have nothing but respect for a man who will show his faith in God by having different experiences. Might check out the book myself.
-------------------- And it was goood
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dan the Man: "God is the same irrespective of whether you pray to him in a temple, church or mosque,"
This is of course true.
I'm not sure that all of the worshippers in those temples, churches and mosques have the same conception of what it is they are praying to though...
-------------------- They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Interesting. Do you actually think that Ganesh is a real, divine entity? If he is, do Jesus and he get along? Or is Ganesh just Jesus in an elephant suit? Or are Jesus and Ganesh actually something else: one disguised as a first century jew, the other disguised as a large Proboscidean?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
To expand, here is a set of propositions for UU and Society of Friends types
We should:
- recognise as fellow travellers and worshippers of the true God all those who seek to walk in the light of Love
- reject the teachings of those who declare the nature of God to be other than that of Love, whether they do so in the name of Christianity or another religious tradition
- be mindful not to fall into the trap of appropriating other people's traditions into our own metanarrative rather than letting them tell their own stories
Do these propositions apply? And if so, how does this affect Anglican priests with statues of Ganesh?
-------------------- They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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IngoB
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/8700.jpg) Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Welease Woderwick: This was in the yesterday's edition of my paper. I found it incredibly encouraging and shall have to seek out his book, mentioned in the last paragraph, and look out for his next when it is published.
He must have a neck like that elephant idol, otherwise how could he stand with such a humongous millstone tied to it? Oh wait, now he has fallen to his knees. But hold on, it's just to worship blasphemously. Something seems to be carrying his millstone for him. It's hard to see what it is... a serpent?! Must be another Hindu deity, I guess. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb: Interesting. Do you actually think that Ganesh is a real, divine entity? If he is, do Jesus and he get along? Or is Ganesh just Jesus in an elephant suit? Or are Jesus and Ganesh actually something else: one disguised as a first century jew, the other disguised as a large Proboscidean?
Thanks for this. You point up in the most charming and humourous way the heresies involved for an orthodox Christian in this type of thinking.
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hatless
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/3365.jpg) Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras: quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb: Interesting. Do you actually think that Ganesh is a real, divine entity? If he is, do Jesus and he get along? Or is Ganesh just Jesus in an elephant suit? Or are Jesus and Ganesh actually something else: one disguised as a first century jew, the other disguised as a large Proboscidean?
Thanks for this. You point up in the most charming and humourous way the heresies involved for an orthodox Christian in this type of thinking.
The negative comments on this thread don't seem at all charming and humorous to me, but curiously extreme. I smell hate.
I've actually met David Hart. He's a serious, thoughtful and very well informed man, and a typically 'nice' Anglican vicar.
-------------------- My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Look, Catholic Christianity esteems that which is true, good and beautiful in all faiths, but that doesn't change the unique verity of the Catholic Christian Faith and our commission to make disciples of all...baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
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hatless
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/3365.jpg) Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
So why are you having a go at someone who clearly sees it differently? Your claim to 'unique verity' seems not only to be a claim to be the only ones who are right, but to be a reason to attack those who disagree.
-------------------- My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I've no interest in attacking those who disagree. But this man is a Christian priest, whose ordination vows are to teach the Gospel, not to perpetuate confusion and error amongst the Christian faithful by making a spectacle of himself with elephantine pagan deities.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
hatless
(Respect to your recently changed sig BTW. Part of the story of my life.)
A question for you. Do you see a difference between inter-faith dialogue and inter-faith worship? (I include prayer in worship because prayers are offered to God). I'm fine with dialogue but inter-faith worship seems to me, to put it at its mildest, very confusing. I think that's the standard Anglican line anyway so there must be some issue of church order for David Hart. Of course that is a matter between him and his bishop.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Words fail me ... which is probably just as well because if I did find the words I think I would be permanently banned from the Ship.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
As a layperson on the outermost fringes of Christianity, I don't really feel qualified to comment with any kind of authority on David Hart's approach. But I do find it a little baffling. I think I could understand it better if the other faith had been Judaism or Islam. There are connections between those and Christianity (although of course there are huge differences also) and they at least share a similar general notion of what 'God' means. However, how a person can profess a Christian faith and then also profess worship to a Hindu god is a mystery to me. There just doesn't seem to be any connection between the two, at least not from a Christian perspective. Perhaps a Hindu would appreciate what Mr Hart is doing more readily since I believe Hindus added Jesus to their respected gods at some point? So perhaps Mr Hart is attempting to reach across mindsets rather than faiths?
I'm not critising David Hart. I'm simply confused yet somewhat intrigued by his approach.
-------------------- 'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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hatless
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/3365.jpg) Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: hatless
(Respect to your recently changed sig BTW. Part of the story of my life.)
A question for you. Do you see a difference between inter-faith dialogue and inter-faith worship? (I include prayer in worship because prayers are offered to God). I'm fine with dialogue but inter-faith worship seems to me, to put it at its mildest, very confusing. I think that's the standard Anglican line anyway so there must be some issue of church order for David Hart. Of course that is a matter between him and his bishop.
People often try to draw a line between dialogue and actual inter-faith worship. I've little experience of inter-faith worship. If two communities tried to devise some sort of hybrid activity I should think it could become unpleasantly confusing, even if there was boundless goodwill. Meaning is given by the traditions of the community, and to have two communities would mean everything would have ambiguous meanings. However, within Hinduism there is a very eclectic approach to worship. Pictures of Jesus may be found in Hindu temples. And within Christianity we are pretty adaptable, too. We use light, music of various styles, pagan Yuletide symbols, processions, all sorts of cultural signifiers, and sacred places (often taken over from prior usage).
Gregory won't like this, but an Indian friend suggested that the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is helpfully encouraging to syncretism, because it says the Spirit proceeds from just the Father. If the Spirit does not 'wear the name' of Jesus, then there is greater liberty to see the Spirit's activity in other faiths, under a different name. In an Indian context where Christianity finds it natural to put on Indian clothes this is very useful.
I wouldn't know what to do with a statue of Ganesh - it isn't really something you can just borrow to spice up worship, because it is so embedded in another tradition, and as I've said, the meeting of traditions is fraught. But, for example, the Hindu wedding practice of putting henna decorations on the hands is the sort of thing that could be taken up and reinterpreted in a Christian context.
(My new sig isn't supposed to be quite as cheeky as it may look. It's meant to complement Mudfrog's 'Every Green Bus Drives Fast.' As musicians will recognise, this is a mnemonic for the notes on the lines of the stave (more traditionally Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit). FACE are the notes in the spaces!)
-------------------- My crazy theology in novel form
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
For those with short memories, Catweazle, the big matey of Cant, before being enthroned dressed up as a Druid priest so that his friends could honour him. So if the big matey as head of Anglican can dress up as a pagan priest, why should we be surprised with an Anglican little matey placing a pagan image outside his house and offer prayers. His is only hedging his bets on salvation.
-------------------- give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by the coiled spring: For those with short memories, Catweazle, the big matey of Cant, before being enthroned dressed up as a Druid priest so that his friends could honour him. So if the big matey as head of Anglican can dress up as a pagan priest, why should we be surprised with an Anglican little matey placing a pagan image outside his house and offer prayers. His is only hedging his bets on salvation.
What exactly are you talking about?
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
In all fairness to Rowen I'm pretty sure that the 'Druidism' that he was/is involved in is a poetry and bardism rather than Pagainism per se.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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seasick
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/0048.jpg) ...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Here is some information about the Gorsedd and the Eisteddfod. Suffice it to say that the Gorsedd is not pagan. If you want an analogy, think of it like being given a knighthood (only without the unpleasant militaristic overtones ). [ 28. August 2006, 10:27: Message edited by: seasick ]
-------------------- We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Hatless
quote: Gregory won't like this, but an Indian friend suggested that the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is helpfully encouraging to syncretism, because it says the Spirit proceeds from just the Father. If the Spirit does not 'wear the name' of Jesus, then there is greater liberty to see the Spirit's activity in other faiths, under a different name. In an Indian context where Christianity finds it natural to put on Indian clothes this is very useful.
It is not a question of me not liking it ... it's just a complete misunderstanding of the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. One can no more prize apart the Spirit and Christ as one can the Spirit and the Father or the Father and the Son. The Spirit's role is transforming us into the true icon of God, Christ, is quite, quite clear from the Scriptures and Tradition. Your friend confuses timeless origin and economic operation ... a not unheard of approach in the west ... itself based on a filioquist confusion.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
hatless
Thanks for the explanation of your sig. I'm oddly disappointed, thought you were declaring a genuine missionary aim ....
The really serious issue is syncretism. I'm not sure whether this is legendary, but I remember hearing some stuff about the early church (prior to the Synod of Whitby) that they were quite happy to arrange to meet together (after "missioning" in different places) in ancient, Druidic, places of worship. They would simply put up a cross in the place and worship there as Christians. I suppose another trite example is the star on top of the Christmas tree. The key idea appears to be "redeem, but there is no need to destroy". Both of these examples show that folks have drawn the line in different places but there is some sort of a line to be drawn.
There is little doubt that the tradition is anti-syncretistic, whether you are Catholic, Orthodox or Reformist. That in itself is no reason for hatred of others. But David Hart crossed a line which I could not cross. My personal guideline is that "Jaw, jaw, jaw is better than war, war, war, but it is not the same as adore, adore, adore".
And I also think his behaviour may have crossed a church order line. Is there an Anglican out there who knows enough about this to point to the current guidelines/advice/laws?
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Indeed, there is an Anglican Church canon which requires clergy to use only those forms of service authorised by canon. However, if Hart is part of the Church of North / South India he might have different rules governing this. Does he live and work in India?
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/8700.jpg) Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by hatless: He's a serious, thoughtful and very well informed man, and a typically 'nice' Anglican vicar.
I'm sure Arius was also a serious, thoughtful and very well informed man. But I keep forgetting that Christian revelation occured in three stages:
- Moses: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:2-6, RSV)
- Christ: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." (John 14:6-7, RSV)
- Anglicans: "Whatever. Another gin & tonic?"
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
By hatless: quote: The negative comments on this thread don't seem at all charming and humorous to me, but curiously extreme. I smell hate.
Extreme? Surely not? Hate? No. Just embarrassment. I actually feel ashamed to share the same office as the man. What a ridiculous individual.
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Dave Marshall
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/7533.gif) Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb: Extreme? Surely not? Hate? No. Just embarrassment. I actually feel ashamed to share the same office as the man. What a ridiculous individual.
It might be worth noting that if I lived in a parish with a priest who thought and spoke as you do here, I would have similar thoughts about him or her.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
Young Dave Marshall, one question, why would you be embarrassed How many gods should we allow in our lives. Have always found teachings of Krishna on the battlefield decidely suspect. In Wembley Park, an Anglican church often hires its church hall for Hindi celebration on the pretext it needs the money. Was told by one of the senior memembers of the church there is no problem as their gods are the same as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Anything for a quiet life. [ 28. August 2006, 13:06: Message edited by: the coiled spring ]
-------------------- give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Melangell
Shipmate
# 4023
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by seasick: Here is some information about the Gorsedd and the Eisteddfod. Suffice it to say that the Gorsedd is not pagan. If you want an analogy, think of it like being given a knighthood (only without the unpleasant militaristic overtones ).
Queen Elizabeth II (when heir to the throne) became a member of the Gorsedd in August 1946. [Photo in Dermot Morrah: Princess Elizabeth, 1947, at p.123. I have failed to find any online link other than a listing of correspondence relating to this event.]
-------------------- Gwnewch y pethau bychein (Dewi Sant) Do the little things (Saint David)
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear The Coiled Spring
.... sadly I think it more likely that they actually believe it. [ 28. August 2006, 13:20: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Oh really! He ought to reliquish his Anglican orders and go do his things with the UUs, or perhaps he'd find a place amongst the Society of Friends, but this man has no place amongst the clergy of an orthodox Christian communion.
Actually, I think he ought to be deposed, if this report is accurate.
And you're in charge of this, how? btw, what makes you think that we Quakers would pray using an idol?
sabine [ 28. August 2006, 13:23: Message edited by: sabine ]
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
He seems like a good bloke to me.
Anmyone secure enough in their own faith has nothing to fear from the faiths of others and much to learn.
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Demas:
To expand, here is a set of propositions for UU and Society of Friends types
We should:
- recognise as fellow travellers and worshippers of the true God all those who seek to walk in the light of Love
- reject the teachings of those who declare the nature of God to be other than that of Love, whether they do so in the name of Christianity or another religious tradition
- be mindful not to fall into the trap of appropriating other people's traditions into our own metanarrative rather than letting them tell their own stories
Do these propositions apply? And if so, how does this affect Anglican priests with statues of Ganesh?
Good set of propositions. As a Friend, I would probably take out the word "should" since one basis of our perspective is direction from the Divine Light (or Spirit) as individually revealed--the Light, incidently, shines in each of us, so by denying others the right to express themselves as they are led, we are denying the Spirit.
That's my take on your questions.
As already mentioned, we wouldn't use idols for worship....unless so led
sabine [ 28. August 2006, 13:33: Message edited by: sabine ]
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sabine: quote: Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Oh really! He ought to reliquish his Anglican orders and go do his things with the UUs, or perhaps he'd find a place amongst the Society of Friends, but this man has no place amongst the clergy of an orthodox Christian communion.
Actually, I think he ought to be deposed, if this report is accurate.
And you're in charge of this, how? btw, what makes you think that we Quakers would pray using an idol?
sabine
Well, actually it seems to have been one of your co-religionists who started this provocative thread, most likely as a wind-up to orthodox Christians. I do think this misguided presbyter would be well placed in the ministry of the UUC. As to the Friends, I only plead the observation that your Society seems to embrace a diversity of opinion, some a bit closer to the Christian Church, and some closer to the UUs, and that the OPer identifies as Quaker.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Dave Marshall
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/7533.gif) Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by the coiled spring: Young Dave Marshall, one question, why would you be embarrassed
Matey, I'm not saying I understand the Hindu connection. I was commenting on the parallel between m.t's rather extreme variant of conservative evangelicalism and David Hart's alternative at another edge of the theological spectrum.
I'm personally probably at yet another theological extreme within the Church, but I try to make a point of remembering that we all might be wrong and that Hart may simply be further down the road of understanding than I am.
So while I consider m.t's views often unhelpful, sometimes potentially damaging, and usually plain wrong, however much of a disservice I think they do to the office of priest I'll do my best to avoid dismissing him personally in the way he seems happy to do with David Hart.
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
How do you know that 'Gorsedd y Beirdd' at National Eisteddfod is not pagan. What is at the centre of, who are prayers said to. The fact that Catweazle felt the need to dress as a pagan priests so he could be honoured is more then suspect. I notice at latest Eisteddford thingy he did not get clogged up. Would Christ have got dressed as a pagan priest to be honoured. Lizzie would have been about 20 at the time and would have been told to by the establishment. Maybe we should have a prayer meeting to pray the red dragon out of the Welsh flag sometime
-------------------- give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by hatless: He's a serious, thoughtful and very well informed man, and a typically 'nice' Anglican vicar.
I'm sure Arius was also a serious, thoughtful and very well informed man. But I keep forgetting that Christian revelation occured in three stages:
- Moses: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:2-6, RSV)
- Christ: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." (John 14:6-7, RSV)
- Anglicans: "Whatever. Another gin & tonic?"
Dear IngoB,
the first two propostions heartily agreed to. As to number three, well you will know already that I take your point; however, I think it's wrong to tar all Anglicans with the same brush, and some of us who remain in the CoE/Anglican Communion are obviously not at all cavalier about maintaining orthodoxy and discountenancing gross heresy.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dave Marshall: quote: Originally posted by the coiled spring: Young Dave Marshall, one question, why would you be embarrassed
Matey, I'm not saying I understand the Hindu connection. I was commenting on the parallel between m.t's rather extreme variant of conservative evangelicalism and David Hart's alternative at another edge of the theological spectrum.
I'm personally probably at yet another theological extreme within the Church, but I try to make a point of remembering that we all might be wrong and that Hart may simply be further down the road of understanding than I am.
So while I consider m.t's views often unhelpful, sometimes potentially damaging, and usually plain wrong, however much of a disservice I think they do to the office of priest I'll do my best to avoid dismissing him personally in the way he seems happy to do with David Hart.
Gee, I would've thought it was Dave Hart whose ideas and practice were doing harm to the office of priest, and indeed to the whole evangelical and catholic ministry of the Church of England and the Worldwide Anglican Communion; not m.t.'s.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Welease Woderwick
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/10424.jpg) Sister Incubus Nightmare
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Posted
I did not post this hoping in any way to wind people up but because I read the article and found it interesting. I thought it might lead to a similarly interesting discussion here but I see that in the majority reasoned argument is out of the window and what I shall politely describe as firmly held views of entrenched positions are to the fore.
I suppose I'm not surprised, but I am saddened.
-------------------- I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way. Fancy a break in South India? Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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daronmedway
Shipmate
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dave Marshall: quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb: Extreme? Surely not? Hate? No. Just embarrassment. I actually feel ashamed to share the same office as the man. What a ridiculous individual.
It might be worth noting that if I lived in a parish with a priest who thought and spoke as you do here, I would have similar thoughts about him or her.
I think that this is quite close to a personal attack.
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
WW, I'd like to discuss this with you.
I don't think any of us can "describe" God. Even the picture of God that most of us saw in the bible when we were about 9 years old is simply an artist's creation.
Therefore, I see no problem with a person having an object to focus on when praying at home. And I see no problem in acknowledging that people of other faiths and other cultures may have a "traditional" image of God that they use.
Those who are campaigning for "Christian unity" might ask themselves which image of God is going to stand once that unity is achieved? Or, more to the point, can that unity be achieved without an argument about whose image of God is the correct one?
Those of us who allow for spiritual paths being unique probably have less angst when it comes to seeing a picture of a priest engaging in a ritual using a statue of God as revealed through a different culture.
As for your own choice....if you want to have a statue in your home, I think that's fine, even though historically Friends have not had statues in the Meetinghouse. If your statue comes from another culture, that's not only fine, it's interesting.
I personally think we have a lot to learn about God by seeing God through the eyes of people who are not just like us.
Common ground is a very iteresting place--and bigger than we think.
sabine
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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Phos Hilaron
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: He seems like a good bloke to me.
Anmyone secure enough in their own faith has nothing to fear from the faiths of others and much to learn.
But which faith, exactly, does he profess? I can't tell from that article whether he's a Hindu, a Christian or a Muslim. Seems he doesn't know either.
-------------------- Gaero?.......Gaero!
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
Perhaps we should learn from Rumi – a Sufi Muslim: All religions, all this singing, is one song. The differences are just illusion and vanity. The sun’s light looks a little different on this wall than it does on that wall. but it’s still one light. For those in love, Moslem, Christian, and Jew do not exist. Why listen to those who see it another way?— if they’re not in love their eyes do not exist.
Or another Sufi Hafiz in the Thirteenth Century: I have learned so much from God that I can no longer call myself a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Jew.
Or Jesus himself: ....you yourselves thrown out. Then people will come from east and west, from north and south, and will eat in the kingdom of God. (Lk 13:30)
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by HangarQueen:
quote: Originally posted by leo: He seems like a good bloke to me.
Anmyone secure enough in their own faith has nothing to fear from the faiths of others and much to learn.
But which faith, exactly, does he profess? I can't tell from that article whether he's a Hindu, a Christian or a Muslim. Seems he doesn't know either.
He has a membership in one church. His spiritual quest may be unrelated to that membership, or may have been born of it. I think sometimes God will lead us to places that we might not go if we stayed within the boundaries in order to allow us to learn something that is for our own spiritual good.
We have no idea what is needed for this man's spiritual good. That's part of his intimate relationship with God.
sabine [ 28. August 2006, 14:55: Message edited by: sabine ]
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Welease Woderwick: I did not post this hoping in any way to wind people up but because I read the article and found it interesting. I thought it might lead to a similarly interesting discussion here but I see that in the majority reasoned argument is out of the window and what I shall politely describe as firmly held views of entrenched positions are to the fore.
I suppose I'm not surprised, but I am saddened.
Would the conversation be more 'interesting' if it moved towards an affirmation of this man's ship-wrecking of the Christian faith? Why should I approve of what I consider to be idolotry? For goodness sake! The picture shows an Anglican priest offering incense (I think?) to an idol: an image made by human hands.
This isn't rocket science; the man's breaking the very first commandment. He's an high-handed idolator. Any sunday school child from my church would be able to see the error in that. [ 28. August 2006, 14:57: Message edited by: m.t-tomb ]
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Is it the fact that it's a Hindu statue that bothers people?
I have attended RC churches and lit candles in front of statues. One of them was a statue of Jesus.
So is it idolitry if the statue of God is in a form that we're not familiar with?
sabine
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
Would the conversation be more 'interesting' if it moved towards an affirmation of this man's ship-wrecking of the Christian faith?
Is the Christian faith on such shakey ground that one man engaging in a cross-cultural, inter-faith practice is going ship wreck it?
I think some of the responses here are far more defensive than this incident calls for.
I pretty sure Christianity is safe for the moment.
sabine [ 28. August 2006, 15:04: Message edited by: sabine ]
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I think the problem here is that some people on the ship don't understand the difference between an adherent to the Trinitarian Christian religion of the Bible and the Historical Tradition (phrasing this to be as broad and inclusive as possible) and those on the outskirts of historical Christianity. This is not a matter of religious co-existance or cultural pluralism, but of the integrity of our own faith. No one who subscribes to the formularies of Anglicanism, Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, or the confessional classical protestant traditions is going to be able to give approbation IMO to a public act of worship to a deity other than YHWH, whom Christians know as the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb: quote: Originally posted by Welease Woderwick: I did not post this hoping in any way to wind people up but because I read the article and found it interesting. I thought it might lead to a similarly interesting discussion here but I see that in the majority reasoned argument is out of the window and what I shall politely describe as firmly held views of entrenched positions are to the fore.
I suppose I'm not surprised, but I am saddened.
Would the conversation be more 'interesting' if it moved towards an affirmation of this man's ship-wrecking of the Christian faith? Why should I approve of what I consider to be idolotry? For goodness sake! The picture shows an Anglican priest offering incense (I think?) to an idol: an image made by human hands.
This isn't rocket science; the man's breaking the very first commandment. He's an high-handed idolator. Any sunday school child from my church would be able to see the error in that.
NOT an 'idol' Hindu images are known as 'murtis' and are seen as visual aids.
As for Christians only being allowed to worship YHWH - since he is the one and only God, then there is no other God that can be possibly be worshipped. Thus worshippers using Ganesh as a visual aid are, albeit unknowingly, worshipping YHWH.
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Yeah. try using that excuse if you ever commit adultery. Well, darling, everyone knows that you're my only wife; yes, I has sex with a prostitute, but I was really making love to you.
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Dave Marshall
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/7533.gif) Shipmate
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by m.t-tomb: I think that this is quite close to a personal attack.
Possibly. The point, though, was to highlight what seemed to me the unpleasant way you were ready to pass judgement on someone you presumably have never met and to whom the Church has given authority and responsibility, as it has to you.
It's about respect, I think, valuing someone as a person, whatever their views, and I'd have thought also as a priest in this case. Your post seemed totally devoid of that.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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