|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Spong banned in Sydney
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
A bishop has a responsibility to maintain the Faith and not giving approval for those who are teaching heresy (denying Christ's Divinity, Resuurection, the Virgin Birth) to preach in the Churches of his diocese. It seems a pretty acceptable principle. I believe there are plenty of bookstores and public meeting halls in Sydney for Spong to give his "lecture"
I believe you know who Arius was and what the Arian heresy involved. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
But the bishop isn't actively promoting the faith at all; he's simply forbidding somebody to speak. Which, again, is his right - but aren't cries of "heresy" counterproductive these days?
And is the faith that fragile that it can't withstand a Spong, who basically has nothing to say? That's pretty sad, if you ask me.
I guess I can see it from the "slippery slope" point of view, or perhaps even that Spong's "arguments" don't deserve to be dignified. Still, isn't it better to let him speak and then argue why he's wrong? Wouldn't it be more productive?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
So...why was Arius wrong, besides that he disagreed with the Catholic church?
We know the Catholic Church has upheld mistakes for a very, very long time (geocentrism comes to mind). What makes this one different?
If the church refuses to answer these sorts of questions, then the church looks weak in the eyes of anyone who isn't already in their camp to begin with. The thing is that these discussions are happening, and will happen, and a silence on the church's part with regard to its fundamentals isn't a good thing, IMO.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
A bishop has a responsibility to maintain the Faith and not giving approval for those who are teaching heresy (denying Christ's Divinity, Resuurection, the Virgin Birth) to preach in the Churches of his diocese. It seems a pretty acceptable principle. I believe there are plenty of bookstores and public meeting halls in Sydney for Spong to give his "lecture"
I believe you know who Arius was and what the Arian heresy involved.
But the bishop isn't actively promoting the faith at all; he's simply forbidding somebody to speak. Which, again, is his right - but aren't cries of "heresy" counterproductive these days?
And is the faith that fragile that it can't withstand a Spong, who basically has nothing to say? That's pretty sad, if you ask me.
I guess I can see it from the "slippery slope" point of view, or perhaps even that Spong's "arguments" don't deserve to be dignified. Still, isn't it better to let him speak and then argue why he's wrong? Wouldn't it be more productive?
Of course but probably not good or productive to give him the pulpit in a Church of an Archdiocese but rather in a secular setting which others have suggested. I'm sure such a debate could be arranged.
I understand your aversion to the baggage of the word heresy but you do agree that such a animal as heresy exists?
[ 14. August 2007, 17:15: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I think that stating that Christians CAN BE " backbiting, banning, fascist lawmaking" is simply a FACT. The banning of Spong, amongst other things I could source easily, makes it so. etc.
Praytell, who would you not allow into the pulpit? Hindus, Muslem, Satanists?
And don't say Spong is a Christian. Unless you use a definition so broad as to be almost meaningless, he's not.
Actually I have seen Hindus and Muslims interacting with Christians from the pulpit. It's called "Comparitive Religion" and actually can be helpful and informative. Satanists? Well that would be like having Klan members at a ACLU meeting, now wouldn't it? Nice try though.
I won't say that Spong is a Christian. I will say he is MORE than a Christian. He is still a Bishop by title (retired), if I understand these things correctly. He was not defrocked or whatever they call that.
Spong is especially well qualified to criticise the church, which he has done quite well IMO. He almost kept me in it, as his writings have the positive possibility of affecting change in a staid organization so used to standing still.
If Christians or at least their organizations want to keep him out, they are fools. For an acting Bishop to keep him out is simply stupidity beyond measure. It's galactic stupid. The surest way to get someone a higher profile is to ban them. It's the best advertising money can buy.
--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
|
Posted
I see Spong in political terms moreso than religious, and I think at least at times he does so himself. I heard him say once that he wishes to change the majority of the church from a minority position. Normally, a hard-line religious minority splits off and leaves rather than hangs around to "convert" the majority. He seems to have debated this internally and arrived at this justification: enough "minority" has left the church for secular society that if he can entice them back, it will be a majority.
He'd be on much more solid ground "defecting" to Unitarianism. But he just loves the Episcopal church, its traditions, and its liturgy too much. And there is enough of a "Unitarianish" wing in the Episcopal to make banning him ridiculous. ISTM that one could as easily say to Jensen to join the Catholic church as to say to Spong he ought to join the Unitarian church.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
The surest way to get someone a higher profile is to ban them. It's the best advertising money can buy.
I'd just like to note that I actually agree with Madge. There must be some peculiar planetary alignment.
--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
I understand your aversion to the baggage of the word heresy but you do agree that such a animal as heresy exists?
Yep, and to Spong, you're a heretic.
We don't live in an era where institutions can take their authority for granted. As a result, "but The Church (TM) say that's wrong!" doesn't really hold much water, and as I understand it, heresy just refers to religious belief that isn't within the church's doctrine.
To be able to accuse another person of heresy you have to first be certain beyond any reasonable doubt that what you have is the truth.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...
And reading wikipedia, looks like the suppression of Arianism wasn't exactly a tidy matter of the church saying "it is so." It took a few centuries and a few periods of not inconsequential bloodshed to settle that one, and like our modern theological disputes, it demonstrated at least as much ugly human politics as reasoned theological discourse.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
I understand your aversion to the baggage of the word heresy but you do agree that such a animal as heresy exists?
I agree that certain teachings are part of the Christian faith as it has been worked out, and certain things are not. And that if you are a Bishop and don't hold with any of those things, you should resign out of principle; it's part of the job description to teach the faith. I'm actually not sure whether Spong is being banned because he's a Bishop, or if he would be banned in any case.
I do believe in definitions, IOW, and that if you're going to completely overthrow a belief system you'd better have something really good to replace it with. And that certain jobs have certain duties.
But "heresy" has by now been done to death - literally, in many cases. I will also say that Spong recently called himself a Trinitarian in an interview - I'll try to find it and post it. I think he's feeling a certain amount of pressure these days and is backtracking a bit. I don't really respect this, either, frankly.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
|
Posted
Mars and Jupiter I think. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think JimT (as usual) is the voice of reason. How the heck is someone in the church supposed to affect change if they kick-ban the guy the minute he proposes something radical change-wise, yet desires to stay within the church?
--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I really wish somebody would simply and calmly point out that what Spong teaches isn't what the Church teaches, and why it isn't. Wouldn't it lead to a much better result? People outside the Church don't know what Christianity is anymore; isn't this the perfect opportunity to teach it?
Rowan Williams spoke up about Spong's nonsense in 1998.
I find the Spongian heresy simply boring, in a "I'm modern secular too, I just talk funny" way.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
I had an encounter with +Spong once, and found him intensely arrogant. On the other hand, he's a friend of someone I greatly respect -- a man with a finely-tuned BS detector -- so there must be something worthwhile there.
My take on +Spong is that he started out as an interesting seeker and thinker in a liberal vein, gained notoriety, liked it, became a headline junkie, and lost his intellectual honesty. He really should have resigned as bishop years ago -- but in that case, who'd be interested in his views? "Another agnostic academic....ho-hum. Why give him a book contract?"
Given that +Spong is trying to push books, one wonders why the Archbishop of Sydney is giving him the publicity he seeks. Not that the Archbishop is exactly orthodox himself...
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
Here's an article in which Spong references that interview; wish I could find the interview itself, but haven't been able to.
quote:
St Paul is said to have preached a sermon in the Book of Acts in which he talked about the God in whom he lived and moved and had his being. That's the kind of God I experience. John, I cannot tell you or anyone else what God is like or who God is like. I can only tell you how I experience God, and I wish the Christian church and all Christian people would realise that simple distinction. None of us can tell any other person who God is, we can only tell that other person how we have experienced God.
And so when I describe God, I am not trying to describe what God is, I'm only trying to describe my experience. And to go back to my trilogy: I experience God as life, as love, and as being. I see that God in Jesus of Nazareth, and that God calls me into living and loving and being. So as I worship this God, I become more fully human. Now does this mean God is a person? I don't know that, I only know I experience God in the depths of my personhood. I said in Perth last Sunday that though I am a Trinitarian, I could never say that God is a Trinity because I don't think a human being can ever tell anybody what God is like. But I experience God.
This from a man who also claims that "the Christology of the ages is bankrupt."
Weaselly, if you ask me. He always wants it both ways; I don't know why anybody pays any attention to him at all, really. Although he does seem to help angry ex-fundamentalists, and that's a laudable goal. He doesn't need to be a bishop to do it, though. In fact, he'd probably sell a million more books if he spectacularly resigned from the Episcopate....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
I understand your aversion to the baggage of the word heresy but you do agree that such a animal as heresy exists?
Yep, and to Spong, you're a heretic.
We don't live in an era where institutions can take their authority for granted. As a result, "but The Church (TM) say that's wrong!" doesn't really hold much water, and as I understand it, heresy just refers to religious belief that isn't within the church's doctrine.
No , it refers to error, choosing error. Your argument seems to be built on a more then a bit of relativism. St Athanasius, St Hilary of Poitiers and other brilliant theologians of the period gave extremely detailed theological arguments to why Arianism was and is a heresy.
But yes, I do believe that the when the Church speaks in Council (i.e. Nicaea) that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that there is something known as objective truth in matters of Faith and not just that someone's opinion is just as good as another's ("oh he believes that Christ was just a good man, that could be true as well, I suppose for him")
[ 14. August 2007, 17:47: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Not that the Archbishop is exactly orthodox himself...
You'd be hard pushed finding anything in the creeds or the Articles (or the early councils) that he disagrees with. He spent much of his life as an Anglican theological lecturer, lecturing in Anglican history (IIRC)...
And I imagine that if Spong wanted to do a big public debate with ++Jensen, or whoever, about (for example) whether Jesus was God, they'd be up for it. Just not in a church service.
It's not the wanting to shut themselves off from criticism thing; it's the seeing that the point of church is praising God and encouraging each other, rather than denying key elements of the faith, which is what Spong seems to do.
[ 14. August 2007, 17:50: Message edited by: Custard. ]
--------------------
blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by IngoB:
I find the Spongian heresy simply boring, in a "I'm modern secular too, I just talk funny" way.
Oh, that silly Paul, awkwardly compromising all of that Judeo-Christian theology just to convert a few gentiles...
Seriously, I think he's trying to learn to communicate God in secularese. I don't think he succeeds, but I think what he's trying to accomplish is worth investigating, if only so we can learn to frame a better argument for his audience. You do want to bring them back into the fold, right?
Though I think he would be safer if he just became a Unitarian Universalist.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
...((++Jensen)) spent much of his life as an Anglican theological lecturer, lecturing in Anglican history (IIRC)...
How droll.
My point, however, was that ++Jensen is giving +Spong the free publicity he craves, which would seem to be defeating his purpose in banning The Heretic.
However, I gather the Archbishop enjoys garnering headlines too, so perhaps they both benefit from this very public little tempest.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphimSarov:
No , it refers to error, choosing error.
If that is so, then even the Catholic Church itself has a long, long history of heresy. Galieo spoke truth, and they punished him for it. History has shown that action to be erroneous. quote:
Your argument seems to be built on a more then a bit of relativism.
Not really. I do believe there is one truth, and I do believe in God, and I'm pretty ok with the trinity (though I suspect that it's a human intellectual convenience rather than something to excommunicate people over). I just don't have the sheer arrogance to proclaim that what I understand is the whole truth beyond any reasonable doubt so help me God. For this reason, I don't like accusations of heresy. quote:
St Athanasius, St Hilary of Poitiers and other brilliant theologians of the period gave extremely detailed theological arguments to why Arianism was and is a heresy.
OK. So someone else, perhaps 1500 years ago, wrote argument against Arianism that were thought out. It's perhaps telling that none of his writings really exist anymore (which some take as evidence of active persecution, which doesn't make you look stronger these days). Also, could you outline what some of these arguments were? How would people accept them today? quote:
But yes, I do believe that the when the Church speaks in Council (i.e. Nicaea) that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that there is something known as objective truth in matters of Faith and not just that someone's opinion is just as good as another's ("oh he believes that Christ was just a good man, that could be true as well, I suppose for him")
I'm fine with objective truth. I just think that a highly politicized gathering of people who are trying to negotiate a compromise among lots and lots of emergent theologies is necessarily a guarantee of objectivity. It's more of a guarantee of something they could all agree on, perhaps holding their nose in some cases.
And if you get into "The Holy Spirit inspired him/her/them," like "The Tao," it becomes a loophole you could drive an oil tanker through. How am I to say that the Spong doesn't have "The Holy Spirit"? I'm sure some of his readers feel that way.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by myself:
It's perhaps telling that none of his writings really exist anymore (which some take as evidence of active persecution, which doesn't make you look stronger these days).
Gah, sloppy typing. By "his," I meant Arius, not St Athanasius, St Hilary of Poitiers, etc.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
...((++Jensen)) spent much of his life as an Anglican theological lecturer, lecturing in Anglican history (IIRC)...
How droll.
My point, however, was that ++Jensen is giving +Spong the free publicity he craves, which would seem to be defeating his purpose in banning The Heretic.
However, I gather the Archbishop enjoys garnering headlines too, so perhaps they both benefit from this very public little tempest.
Ross
That presumes that Jensen's purpose was to deny Spong publicity. The real purpose, presumably, was to declare that Spong and his opinions are unacceptable and not permitted to be taught in the Archdiocese of Sydney.
--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
I'm not sure Jensen is the first to do this. I remember hearing several bishops banning Spong from speaking in their diocese. If I remember correctly, the bishop of San Diego banned him from speaking at a church in his diocese. One priest told me the bishop of Texas wouldn't allow Spong permission to speak in his diocese either. Neither of those guys are as conservative as Jensen.
I don't think Spong giving speeches hurts anything though preaching a sermon is a different matter. Personally, I wish Spong would go away and come up with something that hasn't been said 150 years ago by better theologians. Spong isn't threatening. He's boring. Kind of pathetic really.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
That presumes that Jensen's purpose was to deny Spong publicity. ...
Actually, I think that ++Jensen's primary purpose was to get ++Jensen publicity -- but it had the side effect of giving it to +Spong as well.
It's too bad, in a way, that +Spong no longer has a diocese from which he could ban ++Jensen; he could return the favor!
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
|
Posted
Being banned from the Diocese of Newark is like being blackballed by the Pacifica Radio Network or disinvited to one of Leonard Bernstein's dinner parties. I'm sure he would be rightfully honored.
--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
...as I'm sure +Spong is flattered to be banned from misogynistic, hyperconservative (except as concerns the priesthood, the sacraments, and the maintaining of Anglican tradition) Sydney...
Everybody gets headlines; everybody's happy!
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
|
Posted
Kettle, meet Pot. Both are fundamentalists speaking from their fundaments.
--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
Actually, I hold no brief for either one of them, TBAS. I was pointing out the similarities.
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
To my mind, "good preacher" requires remaining within the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, as believed by the Church, and Spong quite simply doesn't do that.
I completely agree. Freedom of speech is one thing
if he was giving a lecture at the Unitarian Church or at some secular venue, fine n' dandy, but I would think the Anglican Bishop of Sydney has a right if not a duty to say who will preach in his churches. If the speaker is giving views that are contrary to standard Anglican beliefs and leading the flock into some other non biblical territory with all his tra la la's then the bishop should tell him "not on a good day pal, get your ass back to New York or where ever you came from" but of course said in a "bishopy way", but then this is Australia they don't use much as far as florid fancy talk, they call a spade a spade!
The irony is Spong is an Anglican bishop at least as far as getting the fat pension, the title, and all the other perks of the job.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
Spong is hardly a victim. His books still routinely sell, even though he basically says the same thing in every one of them. And there are plenty of people disillusioned with Christianity ready to defend him as that great liberal hero going up against big bad fundamentalist Christianity. My goodness, even Bill O'Reilly likes him. He isn't exactly what I call a marginalized victim.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
even Bill O'Reilly likes him.
Really? Do you have a citation to back that one? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
Being banned from the Diocese of Newark is like being blackballed by the Pacifica Radio Network or disinvited to one of Leonard Bernstein's dinner parties. I'm sure he would be rightfully honored.
Hell, can someone arrange for me to be banned from the Diocese of Newark? I want that on my resume.
--------------------
The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
even Bill O'Reilly likes him.
Really? Do you have a citation to back that one?
I believe if you check the back of Spong's "The Sins of Scripture", O'Reilly is one of the endorsements of his book. Apparently Spong went on one of his programs and for some reason, Spong and O'Reilly were not bashing one another.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Actually, I hold no brief for either one of them, TBAS. I was pointing out the similarities.
Ross
As if I wasn't?
--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
I was probably getting ahead of myself. When it comes to O'Reilly, if he doesn't think you are an evil liberal out to destroy Christmas, he likes you.
He probably doesn't endorse Spong's theology. My original point was that Spong isn't going to lose much if Sydney doesn't want him. He already is quite famous and popular among liberals.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
OriginallY posted by bc_anglican:
He probably doesn't endorse Spong's theology. My original point was that Spong isn't going to lose much if Sydney doesn't want him. He already is quite famous and popular among liberals.
This is certainly true, at least among liberal Christians. I'm not as sure about liberals who might become Christian and don't realize that the Sydney Diocese doesn't represent the whole church.
Then again, I don't know how many non-Christians read Spong or would care enough.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Then again, I don't know how many non-Christians read Spong or would care enough.
<raised hand> And at the recommendation of a United Church minister, too. OliviaG
--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
quote:
Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
Being banned from the Diocese of Newark is like being blackballed by the Pacifica Radio Network or disinvited to one of Leonard Bernstein's dinner parties. I'm sure he would be rightfully honored.
Hell, can someone arrange for me to be banned from the Diocese of Newark? I want that on my resume.
Tangent: I know someone who possesses, with some angry pride and honor, a letter of excommunication from the Anglican Catholic Church. Not only was he excommunicated, but he received the "greater excommunication," and permanently banned from ever stepping on the property of an ACC parish ever again. I still might even have a photocopy version of it in my files, for it is one of the most hilariously pompous, sectarian, and ultimately worthless documents I've ever seen. From memory, it included unfortunate verbiage about being duly "deprived of intercourse with the faithful." ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) The supposed offense was committing sacrilege against the Blessed Sacrament! (There was, obviously, no sacrilege against the Blessed Sacrament, merely a trumped-up charge during of one of those ugly power-grabbing purges and coups that continually plague continuing Anglican churches).
The shady priest who procured this absurd excommunication from his bishop has been since ordained a Catholic priest. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 14. August 2007, 22:03: Message edited by: JArthurCrank ]
--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
Much as I enjoy the sport of bashing Sydney Anglicanism, I have to say I can't see anything wrong in this. In fact, I'd be remarkably unbovvered were the Bishop of Durham (for example) to do the same thing.
I don't accept the general principle of not restricting who can preach. It would be easy to come up with absurd examples to make the point - it is reasonable for a bishop to ban people from the pulpit if he thinks they'll talk bollocks. Whether +Spong fits the bill or not is a matter for debate but it's +Jensen's decision to make.
I don't accept the other argument that it's bad because it gives +Spong publicity either. If this causes him to sell more books then good for him. I genuinely don't see the problem. Why should any of us care (other than to be happy for him) if Jack Spong ends up with more money in the bank?
What it does say is that according to Sydney, this person is a vile heret... erm, I mean this person holds opinions that are so far from what Sydney understands Christianity to be that he's not getting permission to preach. Good for them - I happen to agree that the pulpit isn't the place for the kind of speculation for which +Spong is famous though if he was lecturing nearby I'd probably go along - and it's good to see some action on theology and specifically Christology rather than the usual points of engagement in the Anglican Communion. Score one for Sydney.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
....and it's good to see some action on theology and specifically Christology rather than the usual points of engagement in the Anglican Communion. Score one for Sydney.
I have to agree with this part of it, all right; it is rather good to talk about religion for a change. Too bad there isn't more actual discussion of, say, Christology, though, rather than an outright ban.
They should have invited him to come debate them, IMO.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
That response from rowan Williams is just excellent - I don't read much in the way of formal theology, but I shall go and see if he has published anything in book form, and if so acquire it.
Oh and of course I liked this line:
If a corpse clearly marked 'Jesus of Nazareth' turned up, I should save myself a lot of trouble and become a Quaker.
I find it amusing, but I also love what it says - perhaps unconciously - about the unshakability of this man's faith, even that would not make him an atheist.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
That response from rowan Williams is just excellent - I don't read much in the way of formal theology, but I shall go and see if he has published anything in book form, and if so acquire it.
I agree it was. He's written many books, BTW; one I liked was called Where God Happens: Discovering Christ in One Another and Other Lessons from the Desert Fathers. Wonderful history and just chock-full of ideas. I'm sure people here can give you some more recommendations.
I've heard that an essay called "The Body's Grace" is wonderful, too, and I've been meaning to read it. It's here, if you're interested, I think in its entirety.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
They should have invited him to come debate them, IMO.
Perhaps, and I'd quite like to see that, but the pulpit just isn't the place for it.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
They should have invited him to come debate them, IMO.
Perhaps, and I'd quite like to see that, but the pulpit just isn't the place for it.
You're right. I was thinking about a formal debate during the evening, for the whole Anglican community there, or something like that.
I take it that Sydney Diocese is as a whole very conservative? Are there large numbers of moderates or liberals there, or few?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
As if I wasn't?
Sorry -- I wasn't clear on that. (And how's your PM folder, by the way? I've tried to respond....)
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
What it does say is that according to Sydney, this person is a vile heret... erm, I mean this person holds opinions that are so far from what Sydney understands Christianity to be that he's not getting permission to preach. ...
There's a lot of that going around Sydney, isn't there?
Ross
--------------------
I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Oh and of course I liked this line:
If a corpse clearly marked 'Jesus of Nazareth' turned up, I should save myself a lot of trouble and become a Quaker.
It tickled me, too. I sent it to my quaker housemate, and got rather an affronted response. Apparently, Rowan Really Doesn't Get What Quakerism's About, and that quote was quite crass
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirium:I take it that Sydney Diocese is as a whole very conservative?
Infamously so.
[ 14. August 2007, 22:59: Message edited by: Dinghy Sailor ]
--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
Doublethink's a Quaker, too, BTW.
[ 14. August 2007, 23:00: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
|
Posted
Aha. Oh by the way, I've just edited my post in response to you, and now you've cross-posted with it!
[and I'm now very scared that I'vce taken your post in completely the wrong way and my irony detectors need a serious upgrade, or something like that.]
[ 14. August 2007, 23:01: Message edited by: Dinghy Sailor ]
--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I take it that Sydney Diocese is as a whole very conservative?
Couldn't give you a definitive answer, I'm a Durham Anglican.
Doublethink, I'm just getting started on his books but there are some rather good sermons and articles on the Archbishop of Canterbury's site.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
There's a lot of that going around Sydney, isn't there?
Could be but I really don't know. As you may know I differ with +Jensen on certain matters but I'm not aware of any bishops who're closer to where I'm sitting being banned from preaching in Sydney. It's one thing to direct your own presbyters, and another to basically announce you think a visiting bishop's a heretick.
Oops, I was trying not to say that.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
I'm just trying to figure out why Spong was invited there in the first place - or if he was, now that I think of it. I just re-read the article, and apparently this is sort of out of the blue; a gratuitous attack addressing a non-existent problem. It doesn't seem that anybody has actually invited Spong to speak in an Anglican church in Sydney.
Also, the article claims that Sydney's objections are to variant views on the infancy narratives, the miracles, and the Resurrection. But mainstream scholars have long spoken of the infancy narratives as literature, so I don't really understand that objection. Oh, well.
[ 14. August 2007, 23:08: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I was serious - I like that line ! Quakerism is probably the definition of a broad church, so reactions are likely to vary ...
FWIW Spong's 12 theses come across to me as vainglorious and empty. Also, fairly unintelligble - rather as if he had swallowed a popular science book and got confused. I am not sure what I think about the virginity of Mary, but it has bugger all to do with Darwin or post-newtonian physics.
It is as if he sees science and mysticism as mutually exclusive. Something thing wouldn't be either supernatural or miraculous if it conformed to the current paradigm of scientific knowledge. It is like a child saying heaven can't exist because there wouldn't be enough room to put all the people who ever lived into it - it just fundamentally misses the point.
God is not just some vast and as yet undiscovered extraterrestrial animal, that you can then go - doesn't exist beecause something with that mass would collapse into a black hole owing to the effect of gravity over distance. It is like he is being too literal and not literal enough and one and the same time.
(OK, I give up, Rowan Williams said it much better ... )
[ 14. August 2007, 23:17: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
