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Source: (consider it) Thread: AS: Expressing solidarity with gay shipmates
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

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Am I alone in wanting to express solidarity with our gay shipmates? I have suddenly gone from extreme anger to near tears: having already decided not to respond to any more posts that I find provocative, the latest few are depressing in the extreme - for me, let alone to gay Christians, I suppose.

Some gay shipmates may find this patronising - apologies, if so. Some shipmates appear to me to have been hurt simply because of who they are and to these I simply say 'Peace / Shalom'.

[Votive]

[ 29. March 2010, 21:23: Message edited by: Campbellite ]

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Prayers for all of us who are a bit [Tear] at the moment, yes.
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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668

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I lurk often and post seldom these days, so I can't say I decide not to post on a given subject as my posting is so infrequent anyway, but sometimes I am astounded by the judgemental and provocative nature from so called Christians. There was a time when I would have got involved instead of lurking on the sidelines and feeling sadness but not expressing it.

Recently some of the posts I have read, with regards to the issue of gay Christian shipmates have been so uncharitable and depressing, so yes.

I'm with you there, and with all of you in my thoughts of and prayers if you need them.

[Votive]

[ 04. January 2010, 10:34: Message edited by: Alicïa ]

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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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# 3886

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[Votive] for my gay shipmates and friends, and especially those who face such bitterness IRL where they cannot simply 'not click on those threads' to avoid it.
[Votive] for the whole Church of Christ, that we may learn to love one another.

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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

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LutheranChik
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# 9826

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Mark: No, you're not being patronizing. This gay Shipmate and her partner (with whom I share some of the more outlandish, as well as the more supportive, comments made here) thank you for your kindness and support.

My denomination is currently going through a maelstrom over its recent decision to officially accept partnered gay people into the ordained ministry. Sometimes I read the hateful comments on the ELCA Facebook page and just start crying. Here the ecumenical nature of the discussion tends to diffuse that anger and frustration somewhat -- sort of like the distant relation being difficult instead of one's immediate family -- but it's still often incredibly jarring to see the overt contempt with which some of my sisters and brothers in Christ hold me. So it's a relief to read posts like yours; it really is.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Thanks Mark, I don't find it at all patronising; I think prayerful support is always welcome.

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The5thMary
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Awww, Mark: You make me feel all cuddly-wuddly inside! Thanks! I've got issues with low blood pressure rather than high blood pressure so maybe I'll venture over and read the posts from the scary homophobes. Then again, do I need any more stress in my life?!

Dumb question. ISTM that mad waves of virulent homophobia seems to come in waves every once in a while, then it sort of quiets down for a while until the next wave appears. Sigh. I notice that happening with the anti-immigrant crap in America, most specifically Georgia, since that's where I live now. And it's always "those people" who are evil: The gays, the Mexicans, the Blacks, those dreadful pagans, those left-handed Godless Communists...

Anyway, thanks for your solidarity.

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Adeodatus
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Prayerful support is indeed always welcome.

One of the most sadenning things for me is to discover how thick-skinned and cynical I've become in 47 years of being a poof for Jesus. These days when I encounter opposition, I drop the rational argument and remind my interlocutor how silly they'd feel in the A&E department having to have a size 9 strappy sandal surgically removed from where the sun don't shine.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I clicked "reply" with a head full of things to say and they one by one hung their heads and slunk away, leaving me only with this writing in the dust and this guy Jesus.

I can only wish God's love to all, gay and straight and in-between, and an apology for anything I have done that made your life(ves) harder.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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ErinBear
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# 13173

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I, too, remember our LGBT brothers and sisters in prayer. I believe so firmly that God's love is for all people. All people.

Blessings,
ErinBear

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dj_ordinaire
Host
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Not patronising at all - thanks very much in fact! [Smile]

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Taliesin
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# 14017

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Can I join in...
I struggle a bit sometimes as a parent and wonder how best to smooth the way, without creating a problem or issue that doesn't need to exist.

This generation has blurred all the boundaries, and it's hard work to create a new set of norms to live by.

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Matariki
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# 14380

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Mark, Thank you very much. Care, prayer and loving kindness are never patronising. Yyour words are much appreciated. [Smile]

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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.

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Margaret

Shipmate
# 283

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Someone I loved a lot died just before Christmas; he was in his eighties, and gay and a Christian at a time when it was even harder than it is now. He gave up going to church a long time ago, and I'd assumed it was because of church politics (we both left that church for the same reason, but I eventually found another one and he didn't). Since he died it's struck me that he might have feared rejection in a new church because he was gay.

He remained a Christian all his life (he told me once he prayed every day) but never again contributed his kindness and generosity and wisdom to a church community. We all lose out if we drive away our brothers and sisters.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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I think that some of the nicest, best people here are the gay ones, and they certainly have all the support I can give them! Love you all, guys!

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Can I join in...
I struggle a bit sometimes as a parent and wonder how best to smooth the way, without creating a problem or issue that doesn't need to exist.

This generation has blurred all the boundaries, and it's hard work to create a new set of norms to live by.

Yup, agreed. Luckily dear son goes to an excellent Quaker school where they are very accepting of everyone, and he's grown up seeing a variety of different relationships in the world around him. We're able to talk about things in a very sensible way as a result.

God loves everyone. Even bisexual people on the autism spectrum, as I understand it.

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Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
[Votive] for my gay shipmates and friends, and especially those who face such bitterness IRL where they cannot simply 'not click on those threads' to avoid it.
[Votive] for the whole Church of Christ, that we may learn to love one another.

Beautifully put [Votive]

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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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[Votive] I'd run out of candles if I lit one for every gay person who has helped me on my Christian journey. But a few more anyway: [Votive] [Votive] [Votive] [Votive] [Votive] [Votive] [Votive]

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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neandergirl

Opposing the thumb
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Echoing RGo, MT, and EB.

May we one day (fingers crossed, very soon) learn to live 'Love God' and 'Love one another'.

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Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee

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Not

Ship's Quack
# 2166

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[Votive]
Thank you for thinking of this thread. I've just spent Christmas with my friend, who is a gay CofE priest and am still angry and sad at the depth of his hurt at the hands of the church.

For all who persist faithfully in churches who harangue, ignore and reject those they should celebrate, cherish and be thankful for
[Votive] [Votive] [Votive]

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Was CJ; now Not

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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I am another person who would like to express solidarity.

We have some amazing gay people in the church and we would be so much poorer spiritually if we didn't value them for their insights and understandings. The scandal of choosing to judge, when we're told not to and to look at the speck in others' eyes to see that one fault and fail to look at our own logs of failings is failing to be Christian.

[ 04. January 2010, 19:19: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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Me too.

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Yangtze
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# 4965

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And me [Votive]

quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
He remained a Christian all his life (he told me once he prayed every day) but never again contributed his kindness and generosity and wisdom to a church community. We all lose out if we drive away our brothers and sisters.

And this really moved me. I wonder how many people (not just those who are gay) there are that we have missed out on because they feel (or indeed are) rejected by church.

[ 04. January 2010, 19:35: Message edited by: Yangtze ]

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organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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The homophobia of some Christians makes me ashamed, whereas many gay Christians are inspiring.
[Votive]

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.

If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.

When they are sick, I visit them.

When they are well, I rejoice with them.

Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.

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Auntie Doris

Screen Goddess
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quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
And me [Votive]

quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
He remained a Christian all his life (he told me once he prayed every day) but never again contributed his kindness and generosity and wisdom to a church community. We all lose out if we drive away our brothers and sisters.

And this really moved me. I wonder how many people (not just those who are gay) there are that we have missed out on because they feel (or indeed are) rejected by church.
I think Henri Nouwen said something along the lines of 'No-one has ever left the church because they were loved too much'. The church (at times) has a lot to answer for.

Auntie Doris x

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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)

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TonyK

Host Emeritus
# 35

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The hardest part about being a DH Host is having to read all that homophobic 'crap' (a word I only use when circumstances allow for none other!) and being restrained from getting involved. (It is considered undesirable for a host to post on a thread s/he has to host - if I post as a shipmate, I get Louise to host the thread.)

My heart goes out to Christian gays, as it does to all who are abused in any way by self-defined 'christians' when we are commanded to love God and love our neighbour. Our Lord did not qualify that command in any way.

Must try that thought on BMS if/when he returns...

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Yours aye ... TonyK

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PrettyFly

Ship's sunbather
# 13157

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I have suddenly gone from extreme anger to near tears: having already decided not to respond to any more posts that I find provocative, the latest few are depressing in the extreme - for me, let alone to gay Christians, I suppose.

Me, too.

quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I clicked "reply" with a head full of things to say and they one by one hung their heads and slunk away, leaving me only with this writing in the dust and this guy Jesus.

I can only wish God's love to all, gay and straight and in-between, and an apology for anything I have done that made your life(ves) harder.

Me, too.

[Votive]

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Screw today. I'm going for ice cream.

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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626

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What I wanted to say has all been said, really...

Edited to add - but I still wanted to say it. [Votive]

[ 04. January 2010, 21:10: Message edited by: St Everild ]

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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594

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No one should have to put up with the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on GLBT shipmates recently. Sexual orientation should not be used to decide whether someone is a human being and worthy of respect and, let's be honest, common courtesy. [Mad]

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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444

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I suppose that God loves homophobes despite their homophobia, but I admit that I find them considerably less likeable than gays.

I think this is a valid extension of Gal 3:28 and in its spirit for this situation.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, there is neither gay nor straight – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

[ 04. January 2010, 22:59: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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Blowing the dust off my pink triangle lapel pin... which is gathering dust because I, naive as hell, didn't think it needed to be worn anymore. I thought those questions were settled and we had all moved on. (I have had the luxury of thinking that.) Apparently I was wrong.

Sorry for my complacency.

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Cottontail

Shipmate
# 12234

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I've been reading these threads with growing horror. I'm so sorry that some shipmates have had to deal with this crap yet again.

And I weep for my dear friend, a better Christian by far than me, who, as she puts it, is simply 'fed up with being an abomination'.

[Votive]

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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Thanks Mark and others.

These discussions always wear me down and lead me to question why I am here (both on SoF and in the church) but then a warm hug makes all the difference. Besides, I have tried to give up my faith and God drags me back.

Thanks again all.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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What Tony said. I'm so sorry that people have had to put up with so much abuse.

[Votive]

L.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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Another way to express solidarity might be to join PFLAG, or to support Straight for Equality and to take their pledge.

I have.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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I wish I could come up with something half as eloquent as the things that have been said here. I do know that I can't bear to imagine my EfM groups, my parish, my diocese, and indeed, *this* community, without the presence, witness, and ministry of its gay members.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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I was reluctant to say anything on this thread, as I did not want to appear to be patronising, or indeed isolating our gay* shipmates. But the headline in today's paper, to the effect that a visit by 3 "evangelicals" to Uganda has strengthened the resolve of the government there to impose the death penalty for some homosexual offences, demands that we all express our appreciation of and suport for gay shipmates, gay fellow parishioners and gays generally in our society. In addition, we should publicise our horror that such legislation could be contemplated.

* "gay" includes the entire GLBTQ range of expression.

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
I've been reading these threads with growing horror. I'm so sorry that some shipmates have had to deal with this crap yet again.
[Votive]

I'm finding it hard to put my feelings into words, so I hope you don't mind if I borrow yours Cottontail.

Also [Overused] for those more eloquent than I who have hung in there, refuting ignorance and hatred.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Adding my own small [Votive] for those facing "correctional rape" and death in some countries [Tear]
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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.

If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.

When they are sick, I visit them.

When they are well, I rejoice with them.

Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.

[Overused]

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12842 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tractor Girl
Shipmate
# 8863

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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.

If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.

When they are sick, I visit them.

When they are well, I rejoice with them.

Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.

[Big Grin]

Another thanks to those have posted affirming LGBT people from a non-hetro shipmate.

I want to [Votive] for those who have been putting the otherside of the argument forward aswell though. Pete's "friends" comment applies to them too. Just as my friends don't look at me in terms of my sexuality I don't look at them in terms of every opinion and biblical interpretation they hold.

Yes people say things that I and others find deeply hurtful, but there needs to be a space for this stuff to be said and debate to be held, (even if it does get circular).

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Patience, Firmness and Perseverance were my only weapons; and those I resolved to use to the utmost - Anne Bronte

Posts: 1114 | From: The field of life | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dal Segno

al Fine
# 14673

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[Votive]

[ETA: I cannot think of anything to add to what has been said but wanted to express support]

[ 05. January 2010, 08:59: Message edited by: Dal Segno ]

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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds

Posts: 1194 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I'd like to add my best wishes to this list.
Posts: 6337 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I still have to put up with BMS on the Fulcrum forums [Frown]

I hope I've attempted (in my own ham-fisted way) to voice my own objections to the lunacy that broke out. Apologies to my brothers and sisters for any sin of commission or omission.

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8693 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dormouse

Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954

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Everyone else is more able to say what I want to say better than me, but I add a [Votive] for everyone who needs it...

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What are you doing for Lent?
40 days, 40 reflections, 40 acts of generosity. Join the #40acts challenge for #Lent and let's start a movement. www.40acts.org.uk

Posts: 2996 | From: 'twixt les Bois Noirs & Les Monts de la Madeleine | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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I'm sorry that I haven't dived into the fray in the recent turmoil, but I know myself, and I'd have likely wound up with a hostly warning because I get so pissed off at such crap. [Mad]

But "Solidarity!"

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21258 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
If I was sick, I saw my friends visiting me.

If I am in health, my friends rejoice with me.

When they are sick, I visit them.

When they are well, I rejoice with them.

Except I don't notice the "gay" bit. They are friends. God made them as surely as he made me.

I have started a thread in Purgatory on this subject, not wanting to derail this one.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1916 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Offeiriad

Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031

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quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
No one should have to put up with the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on GLBT shipmates recently. Sexual orientation should not be used to decide whether someone is a human being and worthy of respect and, let's be honest, common courtesy. [Mad]

Absolutely agreed: the debating of issues on the boards is one thing, but what has gone on recently has been far more damaging to fellow human beings and fellow Christians.
Posts: 1423 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002

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Expressing solidarity here [Votive]

I am forever grateful for the witness and perseverence of the gay members of my church despite the hierachy's condemnation.

Posts: 2848 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged



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