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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: And they're off - UK election rant
Callan
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# 525

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Because, obviously what you want to do if you are leader of the Tory Party and attempting to render your party once more electable the obvious course of action is to plunge the party into a civil war over Europe. That worked so well in the 1990s for the Major administration.

Apropos J. S. Mill's remark about the Tories being the stupid party, AJP Taylor commented that the Tories were stupid but sensible and the radical alternative was generally clever but silly. People who think that Cameron should have fought the election on more right wing turf are both stupid and silly.

Changing the subject, you can forget about the progressive co-alition. The nats don't vote on English matters as a point of principle. Lib+Lab+Alliance+SDLP does not constitute a majority and could be voted down on all legislation that affected English matters. I guess they could change their minds about this but it wouldn't do much for the state of the West Lothian Question. Even if they did that gives them a majority of three across the board so all it takes is a couple of deaths on the government benches and a motion of no confidence looms.

All it takes is a couple of heart attacks or a falling out with Plaid Cymru and they're out. Hardly a basis for stable government.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Hardly a basis for stable government.

May I suggest strange women lying in ponds distributing swords?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Hardly a basis for stable government.

May I suggest strange women lying in ponds distributing swords?
A strange woman in a pond with a sword might be OK, otherwise there will be arguments about the number of women per pond, the location of ponds and the distribution of swords.

I'd rather sort out the budget deficit thank you.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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lowlands_boy
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Hardly a basis for stable government.

May I suggest strange women lying in ponds distributing swords?
Certainly not. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Probably x-post with ten others.

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I thought I should update my signature line....

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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A survey today by PoliticsHome suggests that voting reform is the fourth most important issue to the electorate right now. Respondents were given a list of twenty-five issues and asked to choose the five that were most important to them. The top ten were:
  1. The state of the economy in general (70%)
  2. Reducing public debt (56%)
  3. Immigration and race-relations (39%)
  4. Reforming the voting system (37%)
  5. Unemployment (29%)
  6. The level of taxation (29%)
  7. Political corruption and sleaze (20%)
  8. Education (20%)
  9. Health provision (19%)
  10. Defense and the armed services (17%)
To me it says that a substantial proportion of the population are bothered about how we vote, but not really enough to make it the headline issue, particularly while the economy is in such a dire state. But we knew that already, didn't we?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Carys

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Gordon Brown is resigning as Leader of the Labour party which is opening the way for a Lib/Lab pact. Suggests the Tory/LibDem talks are not going well. Clegg wants to talk to both formally.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
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Wesley J

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Interesting.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Matt Black

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Buggers are fiddling whilst Rome burns... [Mad]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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St. Punk the Pious

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Cameron tried to please everyone and avoid offending anyone . . . and look where that has gotten him. He loses too much of his base and is having trouble forming a government.

As much as I detest both Labour and the Lib Dems, a Lab-Lib government would probably result in Cameron being axed as Tory leader.

And that would be a good thing.

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The Society of St. Pius *
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My reely gud book.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Buggers are fiddling whilst Rome burns... [Mad]

I thought it was Athens.

What else can they do? To rush into a coalition without any sort of agreement is doomed to fail.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Imaginary Friend

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I still think nobody in their right minds would want to be in government at the moment. A bunch of unpopular decisions to make and the strong likelihood of another election fairly soon. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole!

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Matt Black

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I'm surprised at how upset and fearful I feel right now, but I do fear for the economy, my business and my livelihood...

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Wesley J

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Exciting times for sure. Then there's still the volcano and the threat of more grounding, and the temporarily solved Greek financial crisis. Best to take it day by day, I guess.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm surprised at how upset and fearful I feel right now, but I do fear for the economy, my business and my livelihood...

I thought that you were a Tory. You wanted less government, now you've got it. [Big Grin]

Seriously, we have these people called civil servants who do the heavy lifting of government and these people called private citizens who do the heavy lifting on the economy. They can keep the show on the road whilst the politicians argue about who gets first dibs on the ministerial jag.

Interesting that the Labour Party are happy to put pressure on Cameron to play nice over voting reform. I suppose its not in their interest to have a second general election in the near future.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Cameron tried to please everyone and avoid offending anyone . . . and look where that has gotten him. He loses too much of his base and is having trouble forming a government.

As much as I detest both Labour and the Lib Dems, a Lab-Lib government would probably result in Cameron being axed as Tory leader.

And that would be a good thing.

Unlike Michael Howard, of course, who campaigned from the right and won spectacularly in 2005.
[Roll Eyes]

A clue: your base do not win you elections. Floating voters do.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Benny Diction 2
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm surprised at how upset and fearful I feel right now, but I do fear for the economy, my business and my livelihood...

Oh for pity's sake.

Whoever forms the next government will have to make cuts and raise taxes.

Do you honestly think that Call me Dave will not raise taxes? VAT at 20% most likely. So you running a business aren't afraid of that? That won't affect you?

And how many of the customers of your business are public sector employees? With Dave and Boy George in power they won't have money to spend.

For the record I know plenty of people e.g. nurses and teachers who are also fearful.

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Benny Diction

"The Labour party has never been a socialist party, although there have always been socialists in it - a bit like Christians in the Church of England." Tony Benn

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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Gordon Brown and most of the Labour Party don't want PR either. They would go for AV which is not much more PR than FPTP.


I don't doubt that many Labour MPs want to stick with FPTP, but you are wrong to minimise the difference that AV makes. It is a complete game changer. You've seen the strength of the Labour vote in Scotland and yet under AV they have never been able to hold an outright majority in the Scottish parliament. Nor have the two major parties Labour/SNP been able to squeeze out Liberal and Tory voices in the ridiculous way that FPTP has allowed the Liberal vote to be devalued in England.

The Scottish Parliament doesn't use AV, but AMS.

The ERS have attempted to deconstruct the election under AV, AV+, STV. It slightly benefits the Labour Party (unfairly) as well as the Lib Dems (fairly).

PR sums.

Now the Tories have offered AV!

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St. Punk the Pious

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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Cameron tried to please everyone and avoid offending anyone . . . and look where that has gotten him. He loses too much of his base and is having trouble forming a government.

As much as I detest both Labour and the Lib Dems, a Lab-Lib government would probably result in Cameron being axed as Tory leader.

And that would be a good thing.

Unlike Michael Howard, of course, who campaigned from the right and won spectacularly in 2005.
[Roll Eyes]

A clue: your base do not win you elections. Floating voters do.

But if you lose too much of your base, you lose.

And why should floating voters vote for Labour Lite?

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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Now the Tories have offered AV!

Not quite. They've offered a referendum on AV, whereas Labour's counter-offer is AV without a referendum.

I hope that the Lib Dems don't sell themselves for AV. I don't think that's a great system because it's only preferential rather than truly proportional.

But of course, Hague is right when he says that a Tory/Lib Dem agreement would be more stable (76 seat notional majority) than a Labour/Lib Dem/nationalists one (barely a majority). That's got to be a factor in their thinking, too.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sleepwalker
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I don't suppose anyone has noticed that Labour promised political reform 13 years ago and did not do it in the 13 years they were in power. Why should they do it now? They can promise away, can Labour, but not deliver.

I love this democracy business. The party who won the most votes and the most seats doesn't actually get to run the country because the third biggest party decides to play games. And then we will get Salmond on and whateverhisnameis for Wales, both saying they want their respective countries protected from all and every cut, and there will be all manner of instability and heaven knows what as bits and pieces of parties who got hardly any votes at all suddenly have the power to run the country.

And to think, this is what it would be like with PR in operation.

I'm sure the electorate will love it, especially the English, if they get to feel all the cuts on behalf of the Scots and Welsh as well.

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The Exegesis Fairy
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Well, 'the people' (meaning, you know, millions of individual people who voted for lots and lots of different people) have decided (insofar as they can) that a hung parliament is what they want.

Which is a bit like the 'in their wisdom, the American people have given us an opposition Congress' on the West Wing.

The thing is, Sleepwalker, it's all very well to complain about the Lib Dems and their measly 23% of the vote as deciders. But the simple fact is that Labour and the Conservatives aren't going to form a coalition government with each other.

Ok, they're very different parties, but they COULD do it. It's just that they won't.

Neither party has said, 'Hey, neither of us wants the economy to tank. Why don't we dream up a compromise? We'd be unstoppable! Serious majority, we could do anything!'

Labour are at least as different to the Conservatives as the Lib Dems are, and they don't have much chance of forming a stable coalition of half a dozen parties (the alternative to the Con-Dem Nation). And yet the thought has crossed nobody's mind (for reasons which I guess are fairly obvious).

And so it's entirely reasonable (to me) that the next biggest party should have a go at making an agreement, thus giving them power.

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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

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Clint Boggis
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
I don't suppose anyone has noticed that Labour promised political reform 13 years ago and did not do it in the 13 years they were in power. Why should they do it now? They can promise away, can Labour, but not deliver.

I love this democracy business. The party who won the most votes and the most seats doesn't actually get to run the country because the third biggest party decides to play games. And then we will get Salmond on and whateverhisnameis for Wales, both saying they want their respective countries protected from all and every cut, and there will be all manner of instability and heaven knows what as bits and pieces of parties who got hardly any votes at all suddenly have the power to run the country.

And to think, this is what it would be like with PR in operation.

I'm sure the electorate will love it, especially the English, if they get to feel all the cuts on behalf of the Scots and Welsh as well.

Sleepwalker, you're confusing FPTP which is how a candidate wins a seat, with how a Government is formed. The latter requires a majority in the Commons, or at least enough members agreeing not to vote against them.

Quite a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding this. Think of forming a Government like bidding in an auction. You put in a sealed bid as do several others. You're pleased to find you put in the highest bid but disappointed that it fails to meet the reserve price, so no sale. You might feel miffed to hear that two lower bidders later approached the seller and made a combined bid which meets the reserve. See? Democracy isn't broken after all!
.

[ 10. May 2010, 19:43: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm surprised at how upset and fearful I feel right now, but I do fear for the economy, my business and my livelihood...

A lawyer fearing for his livelihood because the progressive party might stay in power?

Now that's a pond difference if ever I've heard one...

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-Og: King of Bashan

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm surprised at how upset and fearful I feel right now, but I do fear for the economy, my business and my livelihood...

Oh for pity's sake.


Yeah, well, thanks a bundle for belittling how I, my family,my employees and their families are feeling right now...

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Now the Tories have offered AV!

Not quite. They've offered a referendum on AV, whereas Labour's counter-offer is AV without a referendum.

Labour's manifesto promises a referendum on AV. Is four days a record for breaking a manifesto promise?
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Nightlamp
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Well it looks like we are going to get a Lib-Lab pact which will be very unstable and I think will lead to a Tory landslide at the end of the year. The Labour party are now going to tear up yet another promised referendum (ah yes remember the referendum on the European constitution) and in a few weeks time we will discover how terrible the public finances are.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Cameron tried to please everyone and avoid offending anyone . . . and look where that has gotten him.

The other way round I suspect - he probaby knew he couldn't swing his party on Europe or electoral reform and so was intransigent on the very things the Libs would want to try to get him into office.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:

The ERS have attempted to deconstruct the election under AV, AV+, STV. It slightly benefits the Labour Party (unfairly) as well as the Lib Dems (fairly).

Fun but pointless, because people vote intelligently and you can't assume they'd vote the same way under a different system.

Also a lot depends on design of boundaries - and that's not a simple question either - there are real advantages in going for natural traditional boundaries

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Doublethink.
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IF (big if) the liberals went into coallition with Labour, I don't think the two would then go into coalliton with the other smaller parties - I think they would make a confidence and supply arrangement with the rest. Given the leg up a pr related system would give the smaller parties, they might agree to that for the sake of voting reform and a workable government - rather than regional cash.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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RadicalWhig
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I'm more than a bit disappointed. On many policy grounds, I was quite happy about the idea of a Conservative-LibDem coalition, with a bit of Red Tory and a bit of Orange Book.

My only concern was that LibDems could secure a package of political reforms, including, but not limited to, a referendum on PR. There was some potential for common ground between the LibDems and the Conservatives on other matters of political reform, including localism, elected mayors and police chiefs, reform of the House of Lords, and the much-needed "Freedom Bill". Even a referendum on PR should not have been entirely impossible, as there could have been an understanding that the referendum would break collective responsibility, with the Conservatives and LibDems being free to take different sides in the referendum campaign).

Incidentally, I don't much like Labour's offer of AV, and I think that in the absence of a written Constitution legislating for electoral reform without a referendum sets a bad precedent - what is changed once can be changed back.

The idea of a weak, dispirited, worn-out Labour party leading a coalition with the LibDems at this point does not fill me with glee, especially as the numbers do not add up.

Strikes me as a missed opportunity.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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Edward Green
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As a committed Christian Socialist I was just begining to see the benefits of Blonds Red Toryism. I was hoping for a government that might convince me. Not sure a Lib Lab pact would work now.

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blog//twitter//
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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Now the Tories have offered AV!

Not quite. They've offered a referendum on AV, whereas Labour's counter-offer is AV without a referendum.

Labour's manifesto promises a referendum on AV. Is four days a record for breaking a manifesto promise?
You sound surprised.... [Killing me]

It's tempting to argue that the Tories are playing the long game - let the Lib/Lab take the hit for student tuition fee increases, the Strategic defence review and the budget next year... and watch it all fall into the Tories' hands even given AV

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:

The ERS have attempted to deconstruct the election under AV, AV+, STV. It slightly benefits the Labour Party (unfairly) as well as the Lib Dems (fairly).

Fun but pointless, because people vote intelligently and you can't assume they'd vote the same way under a different system.

Also a lot depends on design of boundaries - and that's not a simple question either - there are real advantages in going for natural traditional boundaries

But the assumptions are at least plausible for the mapping from FPTP to AV, using the same constituencies, which is the only change that is likely to happen in the short-term.

So it is quite important that it is likely that the Lib Dems would do slightly better under the alternative offered, or to put it another way, even if the Lib Dems lose a few votes by joining a government that makes public sector spending cuts it could keep the same number of MPs.

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St. Punk the Pious

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Well it looks like we are going to get a Lib-Lab pact which will be very unstable and I think will lead to a Tory landslide at the end of the year. The Labour party are now going to tear up yet another promised referendum (ah yes remember the referendum on the European constitution) and in a few weeks time we will discover how terrible the public finances are.

That and the demise of Cameron makes me want to root for a Lib-Lab government!

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The Society of St. Pius *
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QLib

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I still don't think a Lib-Lab coalition is viable, though nothing would please me more than to be proved wrong. My hope now is that Clegg is looking for a Tory commitment to cross-party working on some issues, such as the care of the elderly, maybe even the economy (but that's unlikely).

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Moth

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quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
I don't suppose anyone has noticed that Labour promised political reform 13 years ago and did not do it in the 13 years they were in power. Why should they do it now?

Probably because when you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow!

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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Cod
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The major problem, as I see it, with PR is that it would mean the Liberals are never out of power in Westminster: Labour and the Conservatives will never form a majority and will always be looking to the Liberals to form a coalition.

That presupposes firstly that the Lib Dem vote will hold up and secondly that no other party will threaten them. Under PR, all bets are off.

I've given the example before of New Zealand under FPTP. There were two major parties - National (centre right) and Labour (centre left) and the smaller Social Credit (radical centrist).

When PR came in, smaller parties simply outflanked Social Credit, and it no longer exists. We still have the two major parties. We also have a host of smaller parties each with a distinctive political viewpoint: a nationalist party, a right-wing libertarian party, an environmentalist party, a Maori nationalist party, and old-fashioned family-values party and a left-wing party.

What strikes me as significant is that no centrist party exists. They all fit onto the left or the right of the spectrum.

It may be that the Lib Dems have never been forced onto one side or other of the spectrum because they have never been in government, leastways at Westminster.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Sioni Sais
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David Cameron is now telling the Lib Dems to make their mind up. It doesn't bode well for a Con-LD coalition if DC want the Libdems to jump when he says jump. Heck, neither the Conservatives nor the LibDems do that for their own leader.

I'd suggest a Conservative minority government to get us out of the logjam. Once they have got a Queen's Speech and a Budget through (or not) we'll try to do something definitive or have another election.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Anglican't
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If something similar happened in the UK, there would be a delicious irony in the Liberal Democrats being destroyed by the thing that they desired for so long.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If something similar happened in the UK, there would be a delicious irony in the Liberal Democrats being destroyed by the thing that they desired for so long.

I have no doubt that PR would end the Liberals. They would find a home in a soft left labour or a new one nation Tory like party. I think that UKIP might do very well on a PR system since England is generally Euro sceptic but no one thinks UKIP will get in. On a PR system they would do.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Clint Boggis
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Why do some of you think that there are only two possible political beliefs? That seems to show very limited thinking, possibly as a result of the daft FPTP system which promotes a battle between the two top parties and relegates any alternative parties to irrelevancy, however much public support they have.

If or when the ridiculous FPTP finally goes, we can all think and vote how we want and not be forced to choose between the least worst of the main two choices offered. If this happens there could be a number of parties, each with its own priorities and they will have to negotiate to form a majority government.

The present negotiations scare the simple-minded and are talked down by supporters of the two biggest parties who don't like losing their accustomed automatic turn in power. But when we get used to this negotiation period following an election it won't seem scary, it'll be normal and everyone will know what to expect. Anything new seems a bit strange at first.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If something similar happened in the UK, there would be a delicious irony in the Liberal Democrats being destroyed by the thing that they desired for so long.

I have no doubt that PR would end the Liberals. They would find a home in a soft left labour or a new one nation Tory like party. I think that UKIP might do very well on a PR system since England is generally Euro sceptic but no one thinks UKIP will get in. On a PR system they would do.
It might depend on the type of PR adopted. If single-member AV was used then the LibDems, used to coming second in many seats, could pick up quite a few second preference seats from (to be specific) Labour when the Conservatives come first and Conservatives where Labour come first. It would vary from place to place, and the Conservatives would have taken UKIP second preferences too. The effect of all that may be enough to overtake the candidate that would have won in a FPTP election. Victory would then go the "least unpopular" candidate, and the candidate lying third could well win a close race under AV!

In multi-member constituencies using STV the situation would be more complex: simply stating that "X would lose under system Y" doesn't account for potential changes to the parties themselves - even if such assertions had any truth in the first place.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
The present negotiations scare the simple-minded and are talked down by supporters of the two biggest parties who don't like losing their accustomed automatic turn in power. But when we get used to this negotiation period following an election it won't seem scary, it'll be normal and everyone will know what to expect. Anything new seems a bit strange at first.


What worries a lot of people is that the policies of the next government (and in some circumstances, the leader of the next government) isn't being discussed and debated in the public arena, where the electorate can see what is going on, but is being decided by a group of a dozen or so men in an office off Whitehall.

If only 'small-minded' people have reservations about this then we are a nation of bigots.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
What worries a lot of people is that the policies of the next government (and in some circumstances, the leader of the next government) isn't being discussed and debated in the public arena, where the electorate can see what is going on, but is being decided by a group of a dozen or so men in an office off Whitehall.

As opposed to a small group of people gathered around the cabinet table in no 10, or merely by the PM...

The reality of politics is that it is ALWAYS about coalition building - except that usually this process occurs, in private, within a single party. Sometimes our masters use the media to enhance the power of their voices in the run up to a cabinet decision. All we are seeing here is a slightly more visible exercise in the same process, with the same degree of confidentiality to enable decisions to be made and compromises agreed...

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm more than a bit disappointed. On many policy grounds, I was quite happy about the idea of a Conservative-LibDem coalition, with a bit of Red Tory and a bit of Orange Book.

Red Toryism was a nice idea. Given that the Conservative party's instincts are still pro-large business at every opportunity, I can't think that it was ever going to make any headway in the Conservative party as presently constituted. It would require a head-on assault on Thatcherite ideas in the Conservative party, and Cameron neither could nor would attempt that. (Unless the Labour party achieves decisive electoral success after shifting to the left there'd be no point.)
At the moment, Red Toryism is merely a fig-leaf for dropping public services while Cameron closes his eyes and makes a wish that the equally cash-short private sector will charitably pick them up.

[ 11. May 2010, 11:53: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Sioni Sais
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Rather more politicking is going on in public than is usual. Most of the statements by party leaders appear designed to appease their own members rather than court support from other parties.

As an example, only a fool would suppose that the Conservatives or Labour have any intention of delivering PR in any form. It is, in political terms a "Yes, of course I'll still love you in the morning" to the delectable Ms Lib Dem. Even if there is a referendum the proposed method would be so complex that Ms Dem wouldn't be in favour of it. The cabinet would have drafted a Representation of the People (Amendment) Bill that would have less chance of becoming law than I have of becoming a film star.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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In a system in which all the parties can be laid out along a single political spectrum, most forms of proportional representation are pretty much bound to pick a government near the centre of the political spectrum.
If you think that a democratic government should be actively obnoxious to as few of the people as possible, then that's a plus.

A democratic system in which tactical voting is undesirable is simply impossible.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Red Toryism was a nice idea. [QUOTE]
Yes.

[QUOTE]Given that the Conservative party's instincts are still pro-large business at every opportunity, I can't think that it was ever going to make any headway in the Conservative party as presently constituted.

Sadly true.

quote:
At the moment, Red Toryism is merely a fig-leaf for dropping public services while Cameron closes his eyes and makes a wish that the equally cash-short private sector will charitably pick them up.
Indeed. I never really trusted Philip Blond's flirtation with the Tories anyway.

[Frown]

Still, I had vaguely hoped the LibDems might have nudged them in a good direction, though. In practical policy terms, there is quite a lot of common ground between Red Tory ideas and Orange Book ideas, even if their ideological foundations are quite different.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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Sioni Sais
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I have just read that the Conservative Way Forward group has rejected the idea of a LibDem/Tory coalition.

See this for a suitably chilling shape of things to come.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Alwyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The reality of politics is that it is ALWAYS about coalition building - except that usually this process occurs, in private, within a single party. ... All we are seeing here is a slightly more visible exercise in the same process ...

Good point.

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

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