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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
...If this is "really" about a burning sense of social injustice, it's being remarkably well concealed so far. It seems to be more about looting and burning buildings.
"Well, I seen the fires burnin'
And the local people turnin'
On the merchants and the shops
Who used to sell their brooms and mops
And every other household item
Watched the mob just turn and bite 'em
And they say it served 'em right
Because a few of them are white...
You know we got to sit around at home
And watch this thing begin
But I bet there won't be many live
To see it really end
'Cause the fire in the street
Ain't like the fire in the heart
And in the eyes of all these people
Don't you know that this could start
On any street in any town
In any state if any clown
Decides that now's the time to fight
For some ideal he thinks is right..."
Trouble Every Day
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Not to mention the loss of shops where people can buy bread and milk locally.
Mostly they seem to have gone for sports clothing, jewelry, TVs and computers.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
It's holiday time, more time to organise + warmer nights.
FWIW tonight is the coolest night in London for about weeks.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mostly they seem to have gone for sports clothing, jewelry, TVs and computers.
Yeah? So what? Is this supposed to be evidence that their rioting morals aren't quite up to snuff?
"Excuse me, Mr. Rioter! That Play Station you're looting will make the mob look a bit less than moral! It may jeopardize the mission, sir! There's a good egg! Put it back! Now let's sweep up that glass like a good citizen."
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Sorry, this Murkan couldn't decipher her accent. Can someone explain what she said?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Sorry, this Murkan couldn't decipher her accent. Can someone explain what she said?
Extract:
quote:
This is about the f***ing man who got shot in Tottenham. This is not about having fun on a riot and busting up the place. Get it real, black people, get real. We fight for a cause, we're fighting for a cause, let's fight for a f***ing cause.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Large numbers of unemployed, disenfranchised young people (especially young men) is a recipe for chaos. The rioters themselves may not have any political analysis of their actions, but that doesn't mean there's no political significance.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
In times past it would not have been as easy to summon up the mobs, but social media has now made it so simple as has been shown in other places which have experienced unprecedented riots. Even simple teenage parties are taken over once the message gets out. I would suggest bringing in the army and sending the ring leaders of the riots to compulsory national service, but the civil libertarians wouldn't like this.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
what Timothy says.
I know these kids. (well, not these ones, obviously, I live a bit too far away. I know kids like them. of all ages, by the way.) Yes, they're shitting in their own back yard and that's stupid. yes, it's not going to fix what's wrong. But they're not necessarily ransacking the shops out of some sense of getting a message across.
It's about being angry. generally. the reality is, folks who are in a good place in their lives don't do stuff like this. something's wrong. societally, culturally, politically, something. And the rioters have anger in there somewhere. Enough pent up anger and frustration that given an excuse to act out they'll take it. even if they're acting in a way that is ultimately self-destructive. If they feel there's no hope in their future anyway, then why bother doing the good thing? they'll just get fucked in the end anyway.
And if there's no way they'll ever legitimately own that playstation, because they'll never get ahead enough for luxuries like that, well then they're just going to take it. because it's the only chance. and to the minds of those in the throes of rioting, they're taking from "The Man"; not from Mrs. Smith who's just trying to make ends meet by running a little electronics shop.
We all want stuff. but if we feel we have a reasonable chance of ever getting it, we work for that. if we feel we'll never get that chance, for whatever reason, it builds up resentment.
Sure, we (general, computer-owning, warm-home-living, literate and semi-functional "we") can see ways that people can get ahead. over here it's all talk of the american dream and pulling yourself up by our own jockstraps (kidding!) and how anybody can one day be president. But there are people raised in fucked up families or no families or families who themselves have given up hope. and they go out to school and are given "the eye" because people heard about them, or their uncle the drug dealer, or the folks from "that" neighborhood. and doors close. and teachers give up on them. and employers turn them away. and it starts to feel a hell of a lot like you're assumed to be a thug. so you might as well be.
I'm just saying this in response to the "it's just a bunch of thugs" concept. because, yes, that's right. But thugs are caused by something.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
Theresa May appealed to parents to get their children to go home. Home life for many simply won't function that way. Gang life may set the boundaries and give sense of belonging that isn't there at home. Community projects help fill some of the gap but I guess they've been cut back.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I would suggest bringing in the army and sending the ring leaders of the riots to compulsory national service, but the civil libertarians wouldn't like this.
And once they're in the army they can be called out to quell outbreaks of rioting whose leaders.....ah.
Unless you're going to keep them enlisted until they're pensionable, they come back to Civvy St and it's the same one they left with the same prospects, the same people, the same policing.
Quite apart from the fact that the MoD doesn't want to spend its cut-back resources on being a boot camp for delinquents.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
rpp had it just right.
Anarchists and profiteers using modern means of communication to stir up existing disaffection.
Yet much of the anger of 'respectable society' is being targeted at the disaffected, rather than the instigators of the violence and looting.
The fact is that a significant section of the UK population is completely disaffected and detached from those who seem to hold the purse strings and make the decisions that affect all of us. For several generations there has been a failure to engage effectively right across social and racial strata.
Re-engagement, which doesn't happen overnight, is the answer to removing the powderkeg. Then the really evil people can be isolated and dealt with.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
This is exactly what our Home Secretary is saying this morning ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
Can you really not tell the difference between the revolution of starving masses in a country governed by an autocratic king and the looting in a lush welfare state?
I lived in Peckham (one of the trouble spots now) 2000-2002 and found an amazing degree of state tolerance for habitual anti-social behaviour even then. Many (most?) young people grew up in messy family situations and seemed to be lacking any ethical framework that I'd regard as normal. There was a widespread disrespect for the police even among ordinary, law-abiding middle class blacks to the point where they'd cover criminals. Bafflingly attacks on ambulances and fire brigades happened repeatedly.
The more money you poured into Peckham (shiny library, nice parks, social benefit payments) the less people valued these things (and some destroyed them) because they were well aware that they had not earned them but were recipients of state mercies and however great this support is it will never fulfill your desires. Habitual receiving does not generate gratitude but resentment generates anger generates riots
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This is also true Sylvander - so what is your answer - cut all benefits and cut these people loose?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrrt01:
It is my understanding that cuts have already affected the original scene of the riots. In particular, the youth services have been severely cut. At the same time, the Educational Maintenance Allowance (EMA) was cut.
So you have growing unemployment (apparently 50 applicants for every job), with less money, less motivation to stay in education, and less to do if they aren't in education and don't have a job.
Re. the EMA - these are people who aren't likely to get through Year 7/8 let alone go into further education to benefit from the EMA.
Re. unemployment - it was noted just how young some of these people are - 13-15 some people say. They aren't likely to have a job anyway.
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting. The root causes are simple:
1. The breakdown of the family.
2. The loss of God/religion in society.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I would suggest bringing in the army and sending the ring leaders of the riots to compulsory national service, but the civil libertarians wouldn't like this.
The army wouldn't like it either. They are a highly trained force and can do without the sort of wankers who are doing this.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting. The root causes are simple:
1. The breakdown of the family.
2. The loss of God/religion in society.
There have been large stretches of time where the working classes have not been particularly religious without these sorts of problems. The key is generally jobs - giving people more of a stake in society.
If you want to blame a lack of respect for the common good as a proximate cause, then that is a malaise that extends throughout society (see bankers essentially holding the state ransom, and MPs cheating on their expenses).
"We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets." -- David Cameron, June 1986
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Extract:
[QUOTE]This is about the f***ing man who got shot in Tottenham. This is not about having fun on a riot and busting up the place. Get it real, black people, get real. We fight for a cause, we're fighting for a cause, let's fight for a f***ing cause.
"And I took all this expensive hi-fi in memory of that dead geezer - what's his name again?".
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I say if they're out rioting again tonight we should call in the Air Force and napalm the fuckers. Sure, it'll cause some damage to property, but no more than leaving them to it.
Yes, I get that they think their life sucks. Yes, I get that they don't have much hope for the future. But that does not in any way justify or excuse this kind of wanton destruction. The way some people on this thread are talking you'd think they wanted this to happen.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting
Really? What the teenagers 'constantly' before the courts, 'mainly' for theft from shops and the 390 cases of looting reported to the London police during the first eight weeks of the Blitz?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting
Really? What the teenagers 'constantly' before the courts, 'mainly' for theft from shops and the 390 cases of looting reported to the London police during the first eight weeks of the Blitz?
Well done for exposing a classic case of "back in my day..."
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
My opinion is there are several different factors that may all have different roles in the producing this. To get a fire going you need: oxygen, tinder, spark and fuel.
Firstly the oxygen:
This is not government policy it is government rhetoric. It is not that cuts are biting it is that the talk of cuts is seen as creating a no win situation. This is leading to a mood of depression and disinheritance in the urban priority areas.
Secondly the tinder:
Summer holidays, dry weather and groups of teenage lads who have very little to do. The unemployment figures don't help as they fall disproportionally on this sector of society. Bored, hopeless and with energy not going anywhere. They feel themselves discriminated against. To some extent this is true, but the feelings are more important than the reality.
Thirdly the spark:
In this case it seems to be a police arrest, which sparked the outrage amongst a group of lads. That is the trigger.
Fourthly fuel:
Almost crucially for this there have to be other people ready to use the situation for their own advantage, whether looters or anarchists. These are not in it to release emotion they are in it for what they can get out of it. However without this wider pool the police would soon be able to contain the tinder youths.
Now something that is not the case. Social media has not quicken the speed at which the violence has spread to other cities. The speed is totally usual. A day after the Brixton riots, were the Toxteth riots and the day after that the Mosside riots. This all in the 1980s largely pre internet.I was living on the edge of Mosside at the time which is how I remember how quickly it spread. I am afraid the news media (papers and TV) are the principle method of spreading riots.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I have just returned from a week away, and come back to this. Root causes? Its a warm Summer, the government is unpopular, which seems to produce social unrest. Because some people are areseholes, and they pick up justified causes of unhappiness to cause chaos.
We were in Slovenia for a week. The country has an interesting history. It was invaded by the mongols, overrun by the Romans, annexed by the Germans, occupied by the Hungaro-Austrian empire. Then their salvation should have come from the united Yugoslavia, joining with other Slavs in one country. But the Serbians and Croatians took power to keep arguing with each other, and keepign the Slovenias out.
They finally achieved independence with the loss of only 66 lives. They had thousands of years of oppression, abuse and disregard, and they achieved their aims with little suffering. I wish we had the same attitude.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
And it'll be interesting to see how CCTV and social media get used to round up the protaganists.
I do feel just a bit sorry for some of them: they genuinely think they're hard done by because too many people have told them so. My wife taught ten year-olds around Tottenham ten years ago. She remembers one of them saying "university ain't for the likes of us". Unwittingly true, but perhaps not in the sense he meant. It was an option realistically open to them, if they worked, but the sad probability was that most of them would have eschewed it. She wonders if many of them have been out in the riot.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
She remembers one of them saying "university ain't for the likes of us".
But who is it that's telling them that? I'll tell you one thing for certain - it ain't no University Admissions Tutor! With the amount of government-set targets for admissions from the lower socio-economic groups, overseen by the Office For Fair Access*, we'd love to see them achieving the grades needed for admission. And yes, we do have schemes and funds dedicated to helping them achieve those grades.
Is it the teachers who are telling them that? I don't know how things work in schools these days, but I'd be very surprised if it was.
Is it their priests/imams/rabbis? I shouldn't have thought so.
So whence comes this idea? Who is promoting it? Who is to blame?
*= Hm. Guess it ain't the government either.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
To be honest, I think the role of social networking has been overplayed. We had riots like this in the 80s when mobile pones were only just coming in and would have more use for throwing through windows than organising the mob.
I think there is a lot of pent-up anger against the government and the police at the moment. The police shooting of Mark Duggan and the protests which followed it just provided the spark which lit a very dry tinder-box.
Police handling of legitimate protest in London is heavy-handed, and successive governments have made it harder and harder to make any effective protest - look at the restrictions in Parliament Square, for example. Kettling is nothing short of illegal detention. It reminds me of the treatment of soccer crowds before Hillsborough. Pen them all up, and then see what happens - tragedy.
Young people (and a large number of older ones as well) are having a hard time getting a job, whether educated or not. All employers are offering is part-time or zero hours contracts. These give no financial security and often leave you worse off than on benefits, and worse still, dipping in and out of the benefits system, which is hell on earth. Meanwhile, bankers seem to be doing better than ever.
None of this is any excuse for arson and burglary, but it does explain some of it. To explain is not to excuse - these are criminals who must be caught and punished. However, lawlessness on this scale is caused by society being divided sharply into haves and have-nots, with the have-nots seeing no realistic prospect of changing their lives for the better by legitimate means.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
Can you really not tell the difference between the revolution of starving masses in a country governed by an autocratic king and the looting in a lush welfare state?
Have you really not read anything anybody has said on this thread about the reasons behind the riots? And you still think there's no reason other than greed? Really? REALLY?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I am afraid the news media (papers and TV) are the principle method of spreading riots.
I agree. I'm not sure how this can be addressed, but I really think the media makes it worse. Crises are good for ratings ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I can't help thinking it's rather like 'mischief night' - word gets around that tonight / this week it's okay to fire and loot, because 'everyone's' doing it. So although there may be several reasons for the initial conflagration, the joining in of everyone else is down to a much more simple understanding of human nature. How else to explain normal hard-working students who went temporarily crazy during the recent Student riots? Later on they must pinch themselves and wonder 'How did I get caught up in that?'
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
She remembers one of them saying "university ain't for the likes of us".
But who is it that's telling them that? I'll tell you one thing for certain - it ain't no University Admissions Tutor! With the amount of government-set targets for admissions from the lower socio-economic groups, overseen by the Office For Fair Access*, we'd love to see them achieving the grades needed for admission. And yes, we do have schemes and funds dedicated to helping them achieve those grades.
Is it the teachers who are telling them that? I don't know how things work in schools these days, but I'd be very surprised if it was.
Of course not - the very opposite in fact. School teachers encourage the highest aspirations.
If a six year old says 'I'm going to be a vet/doctor/pilot/lawyer etc (and they do) I say a heartfelt "Go for it, you can do it". I teach in the most deprived ward in the country.
I have a strong feeling it may be their parents who give them the 'It's not for the likes of us' attitude.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
What Marvin said. At least arm the police with tear gas, baton rounds and watering cannon to use on these bastards
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And quite a lot of us in London are feeling worried that the rioting will come right to our living areas - it's got more and more moving rioting.
What can we do to protect ourselves and our homes and some work in shops...? ...the fire workers haven't always been able to save places that have been burned... there are violent mainly young people around and the police are working, working, working, and being hurt loads of time. And so other nasty things might also happen...
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
.......... lawlessness on this scale is caused by society being divided sharply into haves and have-nots, with the have-nots seeing no realistic prospect of changing their lives for the better by legitimate means.
Added to this is an implication of blame - that the have-nots are somehow responsible for their poverty and lack of future. It may not be put this way explicitly but it comes across in the sub-text of much of the media and of government pronouncements.
I'm not surprised by the riots.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have a strong feeling it may be their parents who give them the 'It's not for the likes of us' attitude.
Me too, Boogie. Me too.
Which, of course, means the root cause of the rioting is bad (or absent) parenting.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What Marvin said. At least arm the police with tear gas, baton rounds and watering cannon to use on these bastards
There's probably no money left after the cuts to policing budgets.
Or, quite possibly, the police aren't bringing out the big guns yet because they're quietly making a point about the resources they need in these circumstances. The police are not big fans of the government at present, and they have their little ways of making that known. It's worth remembering that the Chief Constable/commissioner of the Met has operational control, and can't be ordered by the government to do anything. Boris has overall strategic control, but not operational.
By the way, it's interesting how phlegmatic the Londoners on these boards are compared to those from the provinces and elsewhere. Could it be that we've seen this coming?
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
Can you really not tell the difference between the revolution of starving masses in a country governed by an autocratic king and the looting in a lush welfare state?
I lived in Peckham (one of the trouble spots now) 2000-2002 and found an amazing degree of state tolerance for habitual anti-social behaviour even then. Many (most?) young people grew up in messy family situations and seemed to be lacking any ethical framework that I'd regard as normal. There was a widespread disrespect for the police even among ordinary, law-abiding middle class blacks to the point where they'd cover criminals. Bafflingly attacks on ambulances and fire brigades happened repeatedly.
The more money you poured into Peckham (shiny library, nice parks, social benefit payments) the less people valued these things (and some destroyed them) because they were well aware that they had not earned them but were recipients of state mercies and however great this support is it will never fulfill your desires. Habitual receiving does not generate gratitude but resentment generates anger generates riots
The problem is that in the inner city state education educates many young men to a level slightly above moron. Even with remedial training they still stand little chance of getting jobs most of which are taken by keen well educated foreigners. Inevitably large numbers of these unemployable youths fall into petty and not so petty crime. Governments are unwilling to face up to this and take the necessary action to break the cycle. The law abiding will sooner or later wake up and realise that the Blair-Brown-Cameron-Clegg generation of politicians are both responsible for this mess and incapable of doing anything about it.
An example: £10 billion has been spent on the Olympics but will any of London's dispossessed actually get tickets or any real benefit for this?
If it is a wakeup call then the riots may not be a bad thing.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
You wish this shit on other people until they start agreeing with your "analysis" of the situation? Screw that, mousethief. You get away with this kind or rhetoric if and when it's happening in your city to your property and to people you know and care about - which, regardless of its "wake-up" effect on you, may God forfend.
The causes almost certainly aren't political in any sense that the government could fix or could have fixed. Plenty of the people doing this have zero political awareness and are far too young to have been affected by the supposed "issues". This particular shit is purely opportunistic.
Post-facto "explanations" such as that it really is about the dead youth are obviously desperate and patently false. The girl quoted is clearly frustrated and merely wants this to have been done for a "cause" - I think even she knows it wasn't. The rioters and looters would laugh in the face of such attempts to explain their behaviour. For every one person attempting them there are dozens of others I have heard who are furious and disgusted by the inexcusable wickedness of all this - and they have actually witnessed it themselves too.
The root causes for people allowing themselves to behave in this way are deeper than passing political conditions, at the level of the family, it seems to me.
Basically, Sylvander has it dead right.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The problem is that in the inner city state education educates many young men to a level slightly above moron.
If you have any ideas of how the education system can be modified to avoid this problem, please share them.
quote:
Even with remedial training they still stand little chance of getting jobs most of which are taken by keen well educated foreigners.
An interesting point. One wonders how much sympathy the rioters would be getting from the usual sources if they were protesting against immigration...
quote:
Inevitably large numbers of these unemployable youths fall into petty and not so petty crime. Governments are unwilling to face up to this and take the necessary action to break the cycle.
again, if you have any ideas of what should be done please share them.
quote:
The law abiding will sooner or later wake up and realise that the Blair-Brown-Cameron-Clegg generation of politicians are both responsible for this mess and incapable of doing anything about it.
Surely if they're incapable of doing anything about it that means they're unable to be responsible for it?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
[qb]
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting. The root causes are simple:
1. The breakdown of the family.
2. The loss of God/religion in society.
There have been large stretches of time where the working classes have not been particularly religious without these sorts of problems. The key is generally jobs - giving people more of a stake in society.
QB]
Except that as I mentioned, many of the reports speak of 13-16 year olds, some as young as 8 year olds, running riot. They're not normally looking for long-term employment at that age.
I do know people who are unemployed and have little realistic prospect for future employment. They're not running riot.
So the question to ask is - why these (very small numbers of) people and not others - the great majority of poor, unemployed people who do not support this lawlessness?
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
In times past it would not have been as easy to summon up the mobs, but social media has now made it so simple as has been shown in other places which have experienced unprecedented riots. Even simple teenage parties are taken over once the message gets out. I would suggest bringing in the army and sending the ring leaders of the riots to compulsory national service, but the civil libertarians wouldn't like this.
I would suggest that your last sentence shows that you don't understand your first.
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting.
There was vast looting of bombed-out parts of London in the War. Especially towards the end. Reported break-ins and burglaries went up by over 70% in 1944.
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
Anarchists and profiteers using modern means of communication to stir up existing disaffection.
Anarchists? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) What have they got to do with this?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't help thinking it's rather like 'mischief night' - word gets around that tonight / this week it's okay to fire and loot, because 'everyone's' doing it. So although there may be several reasons for the initial conflagration, the joining in of everyone else is down to a much more simple understanding of human nature.
Zackly.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
The law abiding will sooner or later wake up and realise that the Blair-Brown-Cameron-Clegg generation of politicians are both responsible for this mess and incapable of doing anything about it.
Surely if they're incapable of doing anything about it that means they're unable to be responsible for it? [/QB]
Your usually sharp logic seems to fail you. You can be both responsible for something and be unable to do anything about it. Government education policies (both parties) have been the engine of educational decline and current governments have no answers to put these right.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't help thinking it's rather like 'mischief night' - word gets around that tonight / this week it's okay to fire and loot, because 'everyone's' doing it.
Yes. I only saw the edge of it walking from the station to the pub. There were about 15-20 people trying to break windows of a big chain shop, Crowd as described so often on TV - mostly but not all teenagers, mostly but not all black, mostly but not all male. Daring each other to try something then taking photos of it. They seemed to be having a sort of desperate fun. That little crowd was not political and not in fact rioting.
And on any other night would have been chased off by a vanload of police arriving. But last night no police came - there were hundreds of them round the corner in the high street
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Government education policies (both parties) have been the engine of educational decline and current governments have no answers to put these right.
And you do?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have a strong feeling it may be their parents who give them the 'It's not for the likes of us' attitude.
Me too, Boogie. Me too.
Which, of course, means the root cause of the rioting is bad (or absent) parenting.
Absolutely.
My first thought last night was 'Where are the parents'
If you had a 15 year old in London last night there's no way they'd be anywhere but home with you.
It must start young - as soon as they first learn the word 'no'. I run a parenting course at our school, it's incredible how basic the stuff is that I'm teaching these young mums and dads.
By the time children are in their teens it's way too late to start good parenting.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It must start young - as soon as they first learn the word 'no'. I run a parenting course at our school, it's incredible how basic the stuff is that I'm teaching these young mums and dads.
By the time children are in their teens it's way too late to start good parenting.
Absolutely. Bloody great big chunks of kudos to you for your parenting work, Boogie.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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