|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Government education policies (both parties) have been the engine of educational decline and current governments have no answers to put these right.
And you do?
Durand School in Stockwell is doing something about it: relocating an inner city school to become a state boarding school in the country. It stops the most vulnerable kids from ending up taking part in street crime and associated antisociability. Trouble is it is one of a thousand schools.
I would also favour selective schools for inner cities but haven't got the energy to debate that anymore. It does make a difference to a community even if only a few of its children are seen to be academically successful as opposed to none of them.
The British do not have the stomach to sort out their festering social problems - they are too comfortable with the status quo.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
|
Posted
Terrible events, though it's now heartening to see how people are coming together to clean up after the rioting, using Twitter and the like to spread the word.
There are lots of questions we need to ask... Understanding is not excusing. We need to both hold the rioters morally responsible, and see the wider social and political problems.
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
A peaceful protest in London turns into a riot.
This riot is followed by several more, many by people who have nothing to do with the original cause.
Does this sound familiar? But I'm not talking about 2011 here, I'm describing the Gordon Riots of 1780.
The copycat riots are not about social media, there was no 1780 Facebook, you couldn't retweet in the 18th Century.
But there are similarities. Britain in 1780 was suffering a recession. Recession leads to anger.
Here are some of the most sensible words I've seen on the issue:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
It's about being angry. generally. the reality is, folks who are in a good place in their lives don't do stuff like this. something's wrong. societally, culturally, politically, something. And the rioters have anger in there somewhere. Enough pent up anger and frustration that given an excuse to act out they'll take it. even if they're acting in a way that is ultimately self-destructive. If they feel there's no hope in their future anyway, then why bother doing the good thing? they'll just get fucked in the end anyway.
As an aside, the only difference the use of social media will make is to make identification of the ringleaders easier. I would be very surprised if the Police have not already gone to the Magistrates to get permission the hack the internet and phone accounts of those they have arrested for rioting.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
There are lots of questions we need to ask... Understanding is not excusing. We need to both hold the rioters morally responsible, and see the wider social and political problems.
This. I've read and heard too many comments over the last couple of days from people who seem to think these two things are in opposition to each other.
There's a kind of mantra with events like this, isn't there; anyone seeking to investigate the root causes has to preface their comments with something like, 'I totally condemn these acts of mindless violence'. Otherwise they get accused of being an apologist for violence, or a wet liberal.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
|
Posted
1 small point. I remember a few years ago drunken fighting friday nights on Godalming high street! Someone on the radio mentioned that Burlingham Club members aqre no stranger to the occasional night of losing self-cvontrol.
... getting wealth isn't the answer to stopping animalistic behaviour.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
I lived in Peckham (one of the trouble spots now) 2000-2002 and found an amazing degree of state tolerance for habitual anti-social behaviour even then.
That's another thing that is local in London. Or in this particular case one sector or segment of London, the inner South East. When I first moved round here in the 1980s I thought of it as "The Old Kent Road Effect". Behaviour which would be stamped on a mile away in any direction seemed to be tolerated in an area roughly bounded by the Elephant, central Brixton, Peckham Rye, Lewisham, Deptford, and the river at Rotherhithe and Bermondsey.
In those days it was after-hours drinking, boxing matches in pubs, openly smoking dope, squatting, football violence, and a general background of a sort of low-key possibly-quite-legal wheeler-dealering. People always seemed to be buying and selling things off each other, from drugs to building materials to frozen meat that fell off the back of a lorry. We seem to have lost the boxing matches but added smoking in pubs & sports stadiums.
A few years ago the police announced that they were not going to arrest people for small amounts of cannabis in South London. Press outrage, and sensible policy withdrawn. But the truth is that is already how things were and it still is. I don't think that is the case all over London though. Its localised down here to some extent.
Mostly, to be honest, I quite like that state of affairs. In my more cynical moments I reckon it must be deliberate policy, a "safety valve" a place where bad behaviour is tolerated so that it can be suppressed elsewhere. If you want some blow go to Brixton. In my very cynical moments I think they allow it so they can send police down here to practice on us. I've seen Birmingham and Thames Valley cops policing Millwall matches, along with the usual contingent of men in black uniforms without markings or badges. Maybe its a training excercise.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Nah, the small amounts of cannabis being ignored is true out here too. To the point that it's impossible to teach kids that it's illegal because they don't believe you.
The kids I know who will have been a part of this are what comet says, angry, disaffected, from dysfunctional families, no futures as they see it, on the fringes of drug use if not using themselves, already in trouble with the law and police. They call the police "Feds" and regard them as the enemy, not as people to help. And to be honest, if you saw the way many police deal with these kids when innocent, I'm not surprised the kids become angry at the treatment they get and lose all respect for the police.
I'm not surprised it's happening either. The Government cuts to council spending here, in this county, have meant:
- retrospective cuts to youth service spending, we were awarded the money to build a kitchen so we could teach cooking and food generally, plus additional opening hours - that was pulled 3 months after it was awarded, no money ever arriving.
- complete wiping out of the county careers service for teenagers,
- There is horrendous unemployment for young people, 18-25 year olds are far more likely to be unemployed than any other age group, whatever they did at school.
- reduced library hours and access to internet for many
The cuts for school spending have meant that:
- there are no college places to study vocational courses from September,
- very reduced spending on alternative education opportunities - all the funding for that has gone on the new schools initiative, leaving State schools funding cut to the bone.
No, the kids who are looking for an excuse to be violent should not be doing this, but there are very deep seated problems that aren't going to take much to trigger into a conflagration.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
|
Posted
There is an element of deja-vu. In The Ikea Riot of 2005 a mob of 6-7,000 ransacked the new local superstore.
"Tottenham MP David Lammy said Ikea should have known offering cheap prices in a deprived area would cause a rush."
The motivation is a combination of desire for new stuff and feeling bored/frustrated with life, lack of hope.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I blame the parents - too many expensive goods and they didn't teach their children how to shop excessively
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
|
Posted
Unlike the student riots & other riots, there are no placards, no clear voice from the rioters.
Will there be a reaction mob of locals holding up placards "rioters go home"?
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Nah, the small amounts of cannabis being ignored is true out here too. To the point that it's impossible to teach kids that it's illegal because they don't believe you.
The kids I know who will have been a part of this are what comet says, angry, disaffected, from dysfunctional families, no futures as they see it, on the fringes of drug use if not using themselves, already in trouble with the law and police. They call the police "Feds" and regard them as the enemy, not as people to help. And to be honest, if you saw the way many police deal with these kids when innocent, I'm not surprised the kids become angry at the treatment they get and lose all respect for the police.
I'm not surprised it's happening either. The Government cuts to council spending here, in this county, have meant:
- retrospective cuts to youth service spending, we were awarded the money to build a kitchen so we could teach cooking and food generally, plus additional opening hours - that was pulled 3 months after it was awarded, no money ever arriving.
- complete wiping out of the county careers service for teenagers,
- There is horrendous unemployment for young people, 18-25 year olds are far more likely to be unemployed than any other age group, whatever they did at school.
- reduced library hours and access to internet for many
The cuts for school spending have meant that:
- there are no college places to study vocational courses from September,
- very reduced spending on alternative education opportunities - all the funding for that has gone on the new schools initiative, leaving State schools funding cut to the bone.
No, the kids who are looking for an excuse to be violent should not be doing this, but there are very deep seated problems that aren't going to take much to trigger into a conflagration.
Wow - how different it would be if they could be spending more time in the library, getting careers advice and learning to cook.
If those things have been cut it would have made no difference whatsoever.
As for the education budget money has poured into that in the past with no discernable improvement. These are really about providing jobs for the middle classes.
[ 09. August 2011, 11:46: Message edited by: aumbry ]
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
The problem is not not having jobs its believing you are in a position where you have no stake in the future of society.
High unemployment in an area engenders it, but so does government rhetoric, so does the way they are treated and so on.
What is more it effects 13 to 15 year olds. I know I saw it first hand at that age back in the 1980s. I was at school with the younger sisters of those involved in the Mossside riot. The class I was in was bright, today each and everyone of them would be capable of going to University, most of them didn't even get to sixth form. Some left without O'level as any job was better than no job. That's what you are dealing with and that is what makes the tinder so dry.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Government education policies (both parties) have been the engine of educational decline and current governments have no answers to put these right.
And you do?
An analysis of a cause is not validated or devalidated by the fact that the speaker does or does not have a remedy up his sleeve, is it?
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
if you saw the way many police deal with these kids when innocent, I'm not surprised the kids [...] lose all respect for the police.
Are you really sure this is why they lose respect? I'd expect you to hate and fear someone powerful treating you badly (I doubt the British police do, though) but you will generally respect them out of necessity.
What I understand from the police here at least is that their powers are so curbed that even kids arrested red-handed (drug dealing, burglaring, mugging) literally laugh in their faces and insult them (I have witnessed this several times at short distance). They have no respect because they know the police have virtually no power over them and will have to let them go after the paperwork is done.
It is a mistake to think (resp. a cheap excuse to claim) that law-abidance depends on police behaviour. Law abidance starts much earlier as Boogie and Chesterbelloc among others pointed out.
Or do you stick by law and ethics out of respect for the police?
--------------------
A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Not to mention the loss of shops where people can buy bread and milk locally.
Mostly they seem to have gone for sports clothing, jewelry, TVs and computers.
I wasn't talking about looting; I was talking about torching buildings. I assume that many of the small shops that went up in flames sold food.
I remember during the Los Angeles riots some years ago, a man who lived in the area said that people he had never seen before burned down the only store within two miles where he could buy milk for his kids.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I would suggest bringing in the army and sending the ring leaders of the riots to compulsory national service, but the civil libertarians wouldn't like this.
The army wouldn't like it either. They are a highly trained force and can do without the sort of wankers who are doing this.
Although without the 'kind of people who are doing this' who would the army recruit? The army, but not necessarily the navy and air force, relies on there being a substantial number of young men inclined to violence and frankly short on morals to do the dirty work. Brave and vital it may be, but let's not get hung up on the grunts being Nice Guys.
Show me an area with high youth unemployment and I'll show you an army recruiting office.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
There has been poverty before - think of the world war - without the associated looting
Really? What the teenagers 'constantly' before the courts, 'mainly' for theft from shops and the 390 cases of looting reported to the London police during the first eight weeks of the Blitz?
What? Simply going back to the gold old days doesn't work because the good old days are not like people think they were? A few Brits on here are sounding very Tea Partyish.
Poverty, and its accompanying powerlessness, more especially the awareness of being poor when others are not, is the root cause, but the reasons for that are so complex and individualised as to defy simple answers.
Coming back from your holidays in Tuscany and giving stern warnings and sending out more cops with expanded powers to beat back isn't going to resolve it though.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
What? Simply going back to the gold old days doesn't work because the good old days are not like people think they were? A few Brits on here are sounding very Tea Partyish.
Poverty, and its accompanying powerlessness, more especially the awareness of being poor when others are not, is the root cause, but the reasons for that are so complex and individualised as to defy simple answers.
Coming back from your holidays in Tuscany and giving stern warnings and sending out more cops with expanded powers to beat back isn't going to resolve it though.
The problem is that many, if not most of the poverty-stricken don't want a resolution to become 'middle class'. They either want to be fantastically wealthy (i.e. win the lottery) or remain in poverty. The idea of being careful with money, working hard at a job, making a difference is alien to many of the people who live in council flats on the dole, etc. And schools can only do so much. They cannot deal with the fact that many of them have had parents who encourage them to be academically lazy, do no work, and remain on the dole for the rest of their lives. A few of them escape the system, but that has more to do with either parents who somehow manage to work out good parenting, luck, or children with amazing backbones despite a complete lack of parenting. I've been in council estate schools where the entire class of six year olds is practically switched off from asking questions. Why? Because no-one at home ever answered their questions, so they gave up asking, and normally trying to stop a six-year old from asking questions is like trying to persuade water to run uphill. Many if not most teachers who work inner-city/council estate schools are saints who somehow manage to re-ignite the natural curiosity that exists, I believe, in every child. All too many of them, however, are simply ignoring the 'lower spectrum' of their class and just working with the few that can make it out because they've given up hope. But many of them have been so switched off at home where they are plonked in front of the TV whenever they ask a question that they are dis-enfranchised from society. Many of those who do escape the system have to completely relearn skills that I take as writ. One of my friends at university who was on a full hardship scholarship, etc, etc. was bitching about the fact that I have a relatively expensive mobile phone. I had a chat with him and he realised that he had nearly twice the income coming in each month that I do, and he was just letting it trickle through his fingers, eating out, drinking heavily, etc. I had a budget for things I wanted to buy from the age of seven. The idea of a personal budget was totally foreign to him, and this was not a stupid person, AAB at A2, etc, left uni with a First, etc.
Whoever it was that suggested boarding schools might have a good idea. These riots are a result of the fact that teenage pregnancy with absentee fathers, no money and no parenting skills has become an accepted norm. My university was not far from one of the high spots for teenage pregnancy in the UK, and the buses are frankly frightening, the normality of it. The acceptance that having a baby is possibly the only way to get out of a home that they hate, parents they hate... and unfortunately starting the cycle all over again as they have no model of parenting to work from for their own children.
I wish I had an answer. I really do. I believe in freedom, I believe in equality, I really do. But the jobs that those children who grow up into being men and women could have had fifty or a hundred years ago are no longer in the country, primarily because their parents were unwilling to work for a pittance as the Chinese, Taiwanese and Indians are now happy to do. So low-ambition has become no-ambition, and many of their parents actively discourage them from being high-ambition. Sometimes it seems like the only solution would be to stick contraceptives in the water supply of the council houses and let them die out--and I've heard that idea suggested--but that idea is so utterly repugnant that it sickens me.
[ 09. August 2011, 12:44: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
|
Posted
quote:
It's about being angry. generally. the reality is, folks who are in a good place in their lives don't do stuff like this.
I don’t think its anger that is stirring the looting. The reality is, most folks who are not in a good place in their lives also do not do stuff like this!
It’s not poverty either – how much abject poverty is there amongst the looters who use blackberries to communicate, and dress up in Nike trainers and sweats? These people were not stealing a tin of baked beans or food, they were stealing plasma TVs.
It’s not cuts either – in fact government spending has actually increased this year compared to last. These people were unlikely to take advantage of local authority services, or libraries, or NHS change for life programmes. This group were unlikely to go to university even if there were no tuition fees.
It’s greed and jealousy and probably laziness as well. They see people having things that they want, and instead of thinking that I should work for it, they decide they’ll just take it.
I wish people would stop trying to rationalise the “give us what we want or we’ll smash stuff up” brigade. Saying that they’re doing this because they’re poor and unemployed only ignores the vast majority of poor and unemployed people who are decent human beings who do not engage in criminal activity.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Although without the 'kind of people who are doing this' who would the army recruit? The army, but not necessarily the navy and air force, relies on there being a substantial number of young men inclined to violence and frankly short on morals to do the dirty work. Brave and vital it may be, but let's not get hung up on the grunts being Nice Guys.
Show me an area with high youth unemployment and I'll show you an army recruiting office.
There is a lot of truth in this. The Army do tend to recruit a lot of those who are socially deprived. And I think the idea that the army - that is, those we train and pay to kill those we don't like - are not the most socially refined people in our society. Having said that, the army do focus that agression into obeying orders and attacking "others". I do not necessarily think that it would be a good idea to involve them without consideration onto ones own citizens.
Particularly as some of our forces are involved in attacking regimes around the world who are involved in turning their troops on their own citizens.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
|
Posted
quote:
Sometimes it seems like the only solution would be to stick contraceptives in the water supply of the council houses and let them die out--and I've heard that idea suggested--but that idea is so utterly repugnant that it sickens me.
This is an example from public health which has been tackling health inequalities for many years now, but it has been shown that one of only measures to have ever worked and actually reduced inequities is fluoridation.
The people who take advantage of programmes, campaigns, services, etc. that are set up tend to either be motivated / ambitious or from the ‘upper’ social strata of the deprived population anyway. What then happens is that the true hard-to-reach groups, the people who are disengaged remain disengaged while those who see a way out, take advantage of these opportunities thus furthering inequalities – the very thing these programmes are meant to tackle in the first place.
This is why I am very dubious that the recession / cuts to services, etc. really had an effect on the so-called ‘underclass’. Cuts to libraries, social clubs, etc. hit the working and middle class hardest because they were actually using these services. Increasing unemployment hurts the working class because at one time these people were employed. The evidence indicates the group in question – the so-called underclass - were never using these services in the first place, were never employed in the first place, weren’t intending to go to further education in the first place.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
quote:
The problem is that many, if not most of the poverty-stricken don't want a resolution to become 'middle class'. They either want to be fantastically wealthy (i.e. win the lottery) or remain in poverty......[some crap about dey took ur jewbs]......
Oh please fuck off.
I'd call you to hell but my working class social ethic has kicked in and now I just can't be arsed.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
This is why I am very dubious that the recession / cuts to services, etc. really had an effect on the so-called ‘underclass’. Cuts to libraries, social clubs, etc. hit the working and middle class hardest because they were actually using these services. Increasing unemployment hurts the working class because at one time these people were employed. The evidence indicates the group in question – the so-called underclass - were never using these services in the first place, were never employed in the first place, weren’t intending to go to further education in the first place.
The 'underclass' didn't suddenly appear from nowhere. These areas are full of people whose families would have worked in factory jobs etc. now all a thing of the past. With 50 unemployed people for every vacancy the problem isn't going to get better soon - even if they were out there job hunting.
And in this post and your previous one you ignore the fact that cuts affected youth clubs, which the 'underclass' do in fact make use of.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
quote:
The problem is that many, if not most of the poverty-stricken don't want a resolution to become 'middle class'. They either want to be fantastically wealthy (i.e. win the lottery) or remain in poverty......[some crap about dey took ur jewbs]......
Oh please fuck off.
I'd call you to hell but my working class social ethic has kicked in and now I just can't be arsed.
Total lack of aspiration does exist and is a mark of the underclass and not the working class. Some of these people make Waynetta Slob seem more like Dame Anna Neagle.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
|
Posted
I don't know if this is a technical word that I've read somewhere, or a term that I've coined myself, but the phrase I use to describe what I think is happening right now is 'aspirational poverty'. By this I mean whole communities become completely devoid of aspirations. As an example, my wife once asked a girl in her infant school class what she wanted to do when she grew up. The reply was "I want to talk on my mobile all day like my mummy". This response was representative of a large number of the kids. I think that it's no surprise that in such an environment, the kids don't seem to know how to interact with society. I have absolutely no idea what can be done about it on an institutional level, but I fear that this segment of society is only going to grow, not directly because of the austerity measures currently being implemented, but indirectly as more people are out of work, as benefits are cut, and as services which can help the motivated to get back into work are shelved.
Finally, let me share a quote from Jean Baptiste Clamence. (I think it was written on a blog or forum post on the Le Monde website, but I'm not sure) quote:
There exists in England an underclass that does not exist anywhere else in Europe. White, little educated, without any means of social evolution, they are a perfect example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and its dehumanising program. The English perversion is to make this population proud of their misery and their ignorance. The situation is hopeless.
I fear he may be right.
--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think if you're going to stick your head up your ass and completely ignore any possible factors for why these riots are going on right now other than "greedy people out for a nice night's shoplifting" then you deserve a riot a day for 100 years.
Can you really not tell the difference between the revolution of starving masses in a country governed by an autocratic king and the looting in a lush welfare state?
Oh dear. Can you find where in the words you quoted I mentioned revolutions of starving masses? No you cannot. You are importing something I said before into this quote. Which means you really didn't real this quote for what it said. Not everything a person says is a parroting of what they said before, or intended to make the same point.
Here, I'll make it simple:
There are reasons for these riots other than greed. Denying this is dangerous folly.
Square?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I think a cause of the riots continuing and getting worse is too much hand wringing and not enough shooting.
Social worker.....30000
Job scheme......100000
Killing somebody because they are rioting....priceless.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
[QUOTE]I wish people would stop trying to rationalise the “give us what we want or we’ll smash stuff up” brigade.
Well, I don't.
I think, long-term, sitting down and actually thinking about the problem is the only way to solve it. It might be an unpalatable fact that British society has a (for want of a better word) underclass, but I have a feeling that merely beating them down and taking away what little they have isn't going to solve anything...
Let's face it: we've collectively allowed this to happen, because for the very great part, the underclass is not us. As long as they keep to their estates and their sink schools, and out of sight of decent people, we don't give a shit what goes on there. Only when it suddenly comes out onto our streets and affects our people do we demand something be done.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Social worker.....30000
These people view social workers as "the enemy" every bit as much as they do the police or the government.
quote:
Job scheme......100000
And they don't want jobs. They want "to talk on my mobile all day".
The more we give them, the more they'll just take. Offer them a job and it's all "nah fuck that I ain't doin that every day wot'ya fuckin fink I am a slave". Robbing a few TVs under cover of a riot is probably the closest any of them have got to providing for themselves in their lives - and it's probably as close as they ever want to get.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
I love how people call rioters "they".
Makes suggesting just shooting somebody or sending them to the army that much easier I suppose when you don't think about them as somebody's kid, friend, lover etc.
Kinda like that 26 year old who got shot by the police that started all this.
Yeah, and the disaffection has nothing to do with being personally ostracised by society....not at all. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Are you really sure this is why they lose respect? I'd expect you to hate and fear someone powerful treating you badly (I doubt the British police do, though) but you will generally respect them out of necessity.
Not that we've ever said it to the kids themselves, but we have dealt with teenagers who have spent the night in the cells for getting into an argument with a police officer on the street, and when we unpick it and try to help them understand how to avoid the situation, the kids have regularly been provoked. Teenagers in groups sitting on a bench regularly get abuse and provocation from local police officers. I used to be somewhere safe to come for my daughter (graduate engineer) and her friends (most of whom went on to further education) when she was still home because they couldn't sit out anywhere without getting moved on or hassle and abuse from the police. That treatment continually meted out does remove respect in even the most middle class of children
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I love how people call rioters "they".
Makes suggesting just shooting somebody or sending them to the army that much easier I suppose when you don't think about them as somebody's kid, friend, lover etc.
As an aside, I love it when people refer to bankers, aristocrats and royalty as "they". Makes suggesting stripping them of all their assets and dumping them on a council estate that much easier I suppose when you don't think about them as somebody's kid, friend, lover etc...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
A headline in the CBC website states:
quote:
Cameron vows London riot 'criminality' will be punished
Parliament to be recalled Thursday to address violence that is quickly spreading
Well, that's all right then. Let Parliament deal. Those guys (and gals) will keep the underclass in their rightful places as All things bright and beautiful informs us.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As an aside, I love it when people refer to bankers, aristocrats and royalty as "they". Makes suggesting stripping them of all their assets and dumping them on a council estate
I don't think anyone is calling for the law not to be enforced - even amongst those who are talking about taking a wider view to the problem.
Whereas with the banking crisis the priorities were the opposite way around - even in the face of widespread evidence of criminality.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:Job scheme......100000
And they don't want jobs. They want "to talk on my mobile all day".
Oh come on, that's taking my example rather out of context: The person who said that was a 7 or 8 year old.
--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
A headline in the CBC website states:
quote:
Cameron vows London riot 'criminality' will be punished
Parliament to be recalled Thursday to address violence that is quickly spreading
Well, that's all right then. Let Parliament deal. Those guys (and gals) will keep the underclass in their rightful places as All things bright and beautiful informs us.
Indeed. His solution to the fact that people are pissed of because (rightly or wrongly) they perceive the police as being against them is to ask the police to hit them harder. Tool.
--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Wow - how different it would be if they could be spending more time in the library, getting careers advice and learning to cook.
If those things have been cut it would have made no difference whatsoever.
As for the education budget money has poured into that in the past with no discernable improvement. These are really about providing jobs for the middle classes.
Aumbry, I don't know where you get your knowledge from, but the funding I was talking about was to fund additional provision at one of the places David Cameron took as his blueprints of the Big Society and Free Schools, you know the shining examples of places that "change things for the better".
The complete cuts of the Connexions services do matter, it's where teenagers between 16 and 21 in this area sign on and get their support in applying for jobs, or has been. Completely cutting it sends out helpful messages about young people not mattering.
And the library is used by very unexpected young people, it's free access to the Internet - which actually, nowadays, in a town where you have to travel to the nearest job centre, is how you apply for jobs. And Jobs Centres being cut means that they are fewer and farther to get to, too.
Vocational college places meant that kids who weren't academically minded could study Motor Vehicle maintenance or Construction and get qualifications aged 14-16, and for some, that kept them in school. You know, the practical skills that are quite useful too.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh dear. Can you find where in the words you quoted I mentioned revolutions of starving masses?
I see. If you (rightly) think that your earlier words were such nonsense you don't want to be reminded of them a few hours later, why say them in the first place?
Or is it a case of Konrad Adenauer's Disease: "Why should I care for what I said yesterday?"
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Not that we've ever said it to the kids themselves, but we have dealt with teenagers who have spent the night in the cells for getting into an argument with a police officer on the street, and when we unpick it and try to help them understand how to avoid the situation, the kids have regularly been provoked.
I often hear this and am usually doubtful. Our prisons are full of rapists and violent offenders who have invariably been "provoked" aut sim.
Really? No, they mostly haven't. They have become violent against a victim Fullstop But they make themselves believe that really, really they are not to blame but someone else, often the victim, the circumstances etc etc. And some are so sensitive they even have learnt that they'll find sympathisers who'll implicitly excuse them by believing the "I have been provoked" approach.
Maybe you do not need to "say it to the kids themselves", you'll still convey the message non-verbally. And for all your good intentions and laudable commitment that may well be part of the problem.
[ 09. August 2011, 14:28: Message edited by: Sylvander ]
--------------------
A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Let's face it: we've collectively allowed this to happen, because for the very great part, the underclass is not us. As long as they keep to their estates and their sink schools, and out of sight of decent people, we don't give a shit what goes on there. Only when it suddenly comes out onto our streets and affects our people do we demand something be done.
I'm gonna presume that the 'us' to whom you refer in the above paragraph is a small select crowd on Ship of Fools rather than everyone on Ship of Fools; or in fact anyone reading this thread?
Otherwise your paragraph is so loaded with the most sickening assumptions about people that I wouldn't even know where to start.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I love how people call rioters "they".
Makes suggesting just shooting somebody or sending them to the army that much easier I suppose when you don't think about them as somebody's kid, friend, lover etc.
As an aside, I love it when people refer to bankers, aristocrats and royalty as "they". Makes suggesting stripping them of all their assets and dumping them on a council estate that much easier I suppose when you don't think about them as somebody's kid, friend, lover etc...
And I did that when?
Stick to the point....you find it easier to think of the poor as one big gigantic group that does the exact same things all the time. I'm not sure why, but it certainly makes the curmudgeon routine easier not to have to bother with subtleties.
I find it hard to believe that 100% of the poor in Britain act with that much group think.
I've worked now in two of the poorest parts of Toronto, one known nationally as a troubled area. I've also had the job of monitoring the thoughts of social workers in those and other neighbourhoods across this city; admitedly, our urban poverty only goes back 160 years so maybe not everything correlates.
Not once did I hear somebody say that the group thinking discussed in this thread was 100% true. If anything 100% said that there were pockets and idividuals that make choices that were different from the neighbourhood stereotyping group think.
And social workers are hardly 100% liberal hand wringing types. Some of the harshest critics of criminal activity and proponents of get tough policies I have heard came from them. They just didn't throw out all the poor with the trash, which some on here seem to be advocating.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
There is an element of deja-vu. In The Ikea Riot of 2005 a mob of 6-7,000 ransacked the new local superstore.
If we can believe the news reports that is more "rioters" than were out in London last night.
Apart from possibly Tottenham and Hackney (where there were political protests going on. at least to start with) the numbers seem to have been really, really small. News reports were talking about crowds of fifty or a hundred. (The only one I saw probably wasn't even twenty) Its just that they popped up everywhere and the police were bogged down in other places and couldn't get to them.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
And I did that when?
Just pointing out that it works both ways.
quote:
Stick to the point....you find it easier to think of the poor as one big gigantic group that does the exact same things all the time.
No, just the ones that think looting is a valid way to improve their lot. There are plenty of poor people who accept their lot, get on with whatever work they can find and strive to better themselves. I have no problem with them at all. But they weren't the ones on the streets last night.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
I often hear this and am usually doubtful. Our prisons are full of rapists and violent offenders who have invariably been "provoked" aut sim.
Interesting that you snipped the part of my reply when I pointed out my graduate daughter also had this happen to her when she was at school
quote:
they even have learnt that they'll find sympathisers who'll implicitly excuse them by believing the "I have been provoked" approach.
Maybe you do not need to "say it to the kids themselves", you'll still convey the message non-verbally. And for all your good intentions and laudable commitment that may well be part of the problem.
The kids don't come in saying they've been provoked actually, and a good half of the time whatever is going on is their fault, so we are fairly good at not making assumptions. But the police are human too and some of them are as good at many people on this thread at labelling all teenagers as trouble and treating them as nuisances and problems that need cleaning up, and it doesn't matter how they do it.
A lot of the time when we are listening to a tale of woe from some teenager, we do usually get them to accept that they were in the wrong and need to apologise. I've taken a lot of teenagers to teachers to apologise as a way of getting the student back into a lesson, even though I know that it wasn't all the student's fault.
The police are not all whiter than white and blameless, some are themselves mindless thugs, and some are lovely upstanding members of the community. You can't make sweeping assumptions that all teenagers are wrong and all policemen are right.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't help thinking it's rather like 'mischief night' - word gets around that tonight / this week it's okay to fire and loot, because 'everyone's' doing it.
Over-heard some local young people talking this afternoon. They're expecting more trouble tonight, they're excited and they're going over to watch as soon as somebody texts them where to go. They didn't admit intending to join in....
I don't know about the root cause, but it seems to be continuing because "it can". The police haven't been seen to do anything effective yet and the media hand-wringing adds fuel to the flames. They're on top, they're the man and there's a good chance they're going to be FAMOUS!
--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Not that we've ever said it to the kids themselves, but we have dealt with teenagers who have spent the night in the cells for getting into an argument with a police officer on the street, and when we unpick it and try to help them understand how to avoid the situation, the kids have regularly been provoked.
I often hear this and am usually doubtful. Our prisons are full of rapists and violent offenders who have invariably been "provoked" ...
What the?? The post you responded to talked about youth involved with altercations with the police and even somebody who's daughter ended up an engineer.
And you then talk about rapists and murderers as proof that these youth are lieing?!?!?!
Stick to the issue.
Do police bother youth in Britain? According to the peoople who deal with youth in Britain, it happens.
It may bother you that there isn't a simple overarching good vs. evil answer to the rioting but life isn't simple.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
It may bother you that there isn't a simple overarching good vs. evil answer to the rioting but life isn't simple.
Rioting and looting is evil. Seems pretty simple to me.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
What the?? The post you responded to talked about youth involved with altercations with the police and even somebody who's daughter ended up an engineer.
Yes, and what exactly does that prove? That she and her friends were always right goody-two-shoes? Never kept company with people that the police may have had good reason to check out? How can you know?
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
And you then talk about rapists and murderers as proof that these youth are lieing?!?!?!
A rhetorical question. But still a real answer: No.
But it illustrates that human psychology tends to be thus that we do rather like to find fault with others than ourselves.
If this goes even for serious criminals whose guilt is not in doubt I assume it would go even more for small time miscreants. People like to make excuses and they often even believe them.
Yes, there will be police misdemeanour and incompetence (a London policeman once said to me: I am glad we are not armed, I would not entrust half my colleagues with a pistol) but on average I'd still assume there to be far more bad apples among those arrested than among those arresting. I won't know for sure in any individual case but in general it seems safe to go by that rule in assessing the world around us. Is that unreasonably naive?
--------------------
A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Finally, let me share a quote from Jean Baptiste Clamence. (I think it was written on a blog or forum post on the Le Monde website, but I'm not sure) quote:
There exists in England an underclass that does not exist anywhere else in Europe. White, little educated, without any means of social evolution, they are a perfect example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and its dehumanising program. The English perversion is to make this population proud of their misery and their ignorance. The situation is hopeless.
I fear he may be right.
And I reckon an external observer, unfettered by a lifetime of being English has nailed it. While the (mostly white) middle and lower-middle-classes must keep their jobs to pay mortgages they will grumble, whinge and write to their MPs about parliamentary expenses, Royalty, Rupert Murdoch and whatever non-issue has been promoted above the economic shitstorm we are in, but go no further for fear of losing said jobs. The majority of those involved in the disturbances don't have jobs let alone mortgages, so they have few if any scruples: just as absolute power corrupts, so does absolute lack of power.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Seems most here have never been pulled to the side of the road for the colour of their skin or the perception of their appearance. Never had the cops cease their conversation to observe you get a coffee in Starbucks.
There are root causes built of inequity, real and perceived. The total causes, and their solution, are not easily solved and difficult for some to understand. So, I suppose, it is easier to put it off to poor parenting, a lack of moral fibre within "certain" classes.
Yes, there are those taking advantage of the situation, those out for a bit of trouble. That does not negate a very real sense of frustration, and fear, at the base.
Hats off as well to those who completely fail to perceive the dynamics off the mob. Did every partisan truly wish to behead everything in sight, including each other? People join in, it is our nature. That you are not rioting today is more to your trigger not being pulled than to your moral superiority.
Does this excuse any of the behaviour? No.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
Let's face it: we've collectively allowed this to happen, because for the very great part, the underclass is not us. As long as they keep to their estates and their sink schools, and out of sight of decent people, we don't give a shit what goes on there. Only when it suddenly comes out onto our streets and affects our people do we demand something be done.
Oh FFS. You know nothing about the people posting on here. I grew up in a dog rough council estate in Ireland in the 80s (single mother with alcohol problem), was raised mostly by grandparents on benefits and money earned from low income menial jobs and went to a sequence of fairly useless state schools. By background I am the bloody underclass. And I grew up watching my grandparents and other vulnerable people on our estate being bullied and intimidated by the kind of thugs who are now busy terrorising their own communities in London. Who do you think uses the buses that are being trashed or works in the shops being burnt out? It isn't generally The Privileged. Its locals of all ethnicities who are probably quite poor themselves.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
