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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause (Page 4)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
angelicum
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
And in this post and your previous one you ignore the fact that cuts affected youth clubs, which the 'underclass' do in fact make use of.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video

One would have to be dubious about the efficacy of these clubs in promoting social integration if when they close then there are riots. All it does is merely indicate that they're not really addressing the problems in the first place. This is regardless of the fact that many people who are affected by cuts and who do use these services do not go out and riot.

In any case, even if your point was accepted that the riots are somehow causally related to the closure of the youth clubs and cuts in general - what then is the answer? So we give them what they want and open the youth clubs againw want because they've now rioted? Isn't this just pandering to the entitlement mentality that sees people thinking they can break open a shop and take what they like? Surely the answer is to teach them that rioting will get you no where. You have a problem with your local council, you write a letter/see your MP/show your discontent at the ballot box.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Does this excuse any of the behaviour? No.

Then why are you saying it? Seems to me like your whole post was one long "if you were in their situation you'd be rioting as well", and if that isn't an attempt to blame the situation rather than the culprits then I don't know what is.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Does this excuse any of the behaviour? No.

Then why are you saying it? Seems to me like your whole post was one long "if you were in their situation you'd be rioting as well", and if that isn't an attempt to blame the situation rather than the culprits then I don't know what is.
I genuinely don't see what you can mean by that. It sounds as if you are saying that thinking about the bad behaviour is the same as approving it.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:

What I understand from the police here at least is that their powers are so curbed that even kids arrested red-handed (drug dealing, burglaring, mugging) literally laugh in their faces and insult them (I have witnessed this several times at short distance). They have no respect because they know the police have virtually no power over them and will have to let them go after the paperwork is done.

Well I've watched a young man get arrested for fighting in a shop. He was certainly insulting people. And the police grabbed him very fast, picked him up, handcuffed him, and genuinely threw him in the back of a van, quite hard, and slammed the door, and said something like "shut the fuck up until we get you back to the station". So YMMV.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
What the?? The post you responded to talked about youth involved with altercations with the police and even somebody who's daughter ended up an engineer.

Yes, and what exactly does that prove? That she and her friends were always right goody-two-shoes? Never kept company with people that the police may have had good reason to check out? How can you know?
Said daughter is reading this spluttering with indignation because she was keeping her nose clean and aiming for university, so was staying very firmly out of trouble. She's talking about stuff that happened to her as a girl of about 12 or 13, sitting with friends having a chat. And those aforementioned friends were doing their best to stay out of trouble too.

(She was not out and about from 14 to 17 as she was sick and in a wheelchair for much of that time)

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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BroJames
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I think for certain sections of society who are disaffected, and hostile to the police there is a long history. It affects all kinds of people within that social group. It is, frankly, an endemic and problematic use of power.

The strong and influential have some (limited) means of legally redressing their humiliation. Most do not. It is not surprising, then, that when there is a flash point there are a number - albeit a very small minority - who are only too willing to strike back, and a much larger number who do not feel much inclined to help or co-operate with the police.

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malik3000
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I should have known there would be pages of responses since my last post. I certainly felt it was my responsibility to respond to the comments that would be made concerning it. But it was a long, brutally hot, day and I was tired and haven't gotten back to the Ship until this morning. I haven't had time to read pages 2 or 3, only most of page 1. So please forgive me if a pertinent remark has been addressed on later pages. Since my post was way back on page one i will reproduce it here:

***

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The glamorisation of criminality and organised crime in popular black culture combined with viral social media trends is the root cause.

Those are certainly very real and very unfortunate trends in society today. But they most certainly are not the root cause.

<generality alert>The root cause remains being Black in a White world. Or more precisely, as a member of a socially dominated group, having to put up with the politico-socio-economic disrespect of the system doing the domination.</generality alert>

To understand this it helps to have been familiar with experiencing it, one might suppose.

The above statement is meant as an observation and does not mean it excuses the rioting.

***

The original post specifically asked for a discussion of the root causes of the current situation.

And please note: finding the root cause of a situation is NOT the same as determining a person's culpability for their actual actions.

And please note: my previous post specifically was speaking in GENERALITIES. I don't know how I could have made that any clearer.

Nothing in my post defended the actions taking place. If anyone saw any attempt at justification it is because they wanted to see it, especially since I specifically stated that people have responsibility for their own actions. Root causes can cause all sorts of irrational response. A legitimate demonstration protestesting misconduct was partially hijacked by idle, thuggish thrillseeking youth. But also by the rage and anger of people sick and tired of continually being the target of police misconduct at a documentably higher rate than other groups.

And yes it is the small merchants that are disproportionately hurt, and indeed the neighbourhoods themselves. But that's partly because if they tried to attack the homes of the rich or the big Wall Street/City financial institutions you can bet that they would be up against far more massive security.

At this point, we don't know if there was police misconduct. But it's hard to get too high on one's high horse in assessing the anger of members of group that have been the target of police misconduct at a higher rate than average.

What got my goat in my 1st post was that no one was even talking about the man who was killed and his family.

And no one was talking about the issue of police systemic misconduct against certain socio-ethnic groups.

"Opportunistic thuggery and theft" was indeed there. But it was not the original root cause.

"Lack of moral fibre" is another reason given. That's a quaint one. Do the rioters have any less moral fibre than those who commit white-collar wheeling and dealing crimes that destroy thousands of peoples' lives?
"The glamorisation of criminality and organised crime in popular black culture combined with viral social media trends" is NOT the root cause. This glamorisation certainly is very much a phenomenon which has disgusted, angered, and above all pained me. I can see it's pernicious effects every day on many youth, but it is NOT the root cause! Also, the claim that this occurs only in the Black community is flat-out WRONG. For the USA, definitely. And it would seem so for the UK as well, from observing the behaviour of more than a few UK football fans.
<START OF BROAD GENERALITY BASED ON PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND EXPERIENCE>Specific individual situations aside, it's easy for individuals in social groups that have NOT been the subject of centuries-long disdain and oppression to make glib generalities about social groups that HAVE been the subject of centuries-long disdain and oppression, while failing to notice . </ END OF BROAD GENERALITY BASED ON PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND EXPERIENCE>
Re-reading page one I see Mousethief's posts immediately above mine really says better what I have been trying to say: "This logic would make the French Revolution all about the selfishness of the lower classes. The aristocracy had nothing to do with it; can't blame them at all." And yes, this is a most serious and valid comparison. We're not talking about the degree or intensity of the disorders, but the similarity of the type of reasoning. Thus, I totally concur with Mousethief's statement:
[QUOTE}We need to look beyond "they're naughty boys" to find the causes of this. Naughty boys have existed for millenia. Rioting in the streets is fairly rare. Why now? Well, we can't look at the political situation and the way we're treating the poor, Ramarius is clearly saying. I'm saying, why not?[/ QUOTE] I would only add the situation of ethnicity-based discrimination

[ 09. August 2011, 15:42: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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krautfrau
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What an utter load of tripe is being spouted on here.

The underclass has nothing to do with poverty. It has been an organised destruction of the social structure in this country, to disenfranchise the masses due to liberal educational policies and social manipulation.

I have lived in Berlin for the last three years where unemployment is much worse than over here. Even professionals cannot get work and it is common to put money in with work applications.

The young people are repectful and law abiding. You never see gangs of them roaming the streets which are safe for anyone to be on late evening on weekends apart from a few immegrant areas.

The social structure has not been destroyed like it has here and the family is regarded as priority. It has all been going on under our noses for a long time and now the chickens are coming home to roost.

Read http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566635055

if you want to understand what has been going on.

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malik3000
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Apologies for the double post but i only noticed my mistake after the edit time had past.

Instead of:
<START OF BROAD GENERALITY BASED ON PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND EXPERIENCE>Specific individual situations aside, it's easy for individuals in social groups that have NOT been the subject of centuries-long disdain and oppression to make glib generalities about social groups that HAVE been the subject of centuries-long disdain and oppression, while failing to notice . </ END OF BROAD GENERALITY BASED ON PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND EXPERIENCE>
I meant to say:
<START OF BROAD GENERALITY BASED ON PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND EXPERIENCE>Specific individual situations aside, it's easy for individuals in social groups that have NOT been the subject of centuries-long disdain and oppression to make glib generalities about social groups that HAVE been the subject of centuries-long disdain and oppression, while failing to notice the beam in their own eye. </ END OF BROAD GENERALITY BASED ON PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND EXPERIENCE>

--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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angelicum
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quote:
At this point, we don't know if there was police misconduct.
The first role of the police is to protect the public. The public were left unprotected and unsafe last night. There was police misconduct. Just not aimed at the group you were thinking about.

The police have failed the vast majority.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It sounds as if you are saying that thinking about the bad behaviour is the same as approving it.

The only thinking that needs to be done is about how to bring the guilty to justice - all of them - and hopefully stop shit like this from happening again.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by krautfrau:


I have lived in Berlin for the last three years where unemployment is much worse than over here. Even professionals cannot get work and it is common to put money in with work applications.

The young people are repectful and law abiding. You never see gangs of them roaming the streets which are safe for anyone to be on late evening on weekends apart from a few immegrant areas.


And they are German.

It's fair to point out that the British as a whole and the English in particular are a lot more contrary, bloody-minded and disobedient than the Germans. Most of the time this is a Bad Thing.

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Jessie Phillips
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I reckon that whatever the root cause was, it was probably more or less the same as the root cause of the 2005 Paris and 2008 Athens riots.

The possibility that the root cause of the 2011 London riots might be similar to that of the 2005 Paris riots slightly challenges the idea that it might have anything to do with current government spending austerity programmes - because, as of 2005, the 2007 credit crunch was yet to occur.

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Ethne Alba
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Surely The Ship can do better than outraged splutterings?
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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I reckon that whatever the root cause was, it was probably more or less the same as the root cause of the 2005 Paris and 2008 Athens riots.

Evidence?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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angelicum
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# 13515

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I reckon that whatever the root cause was, it was probably more or less the same as the root cause of the 2005 Paris and 2008 Athens riots.

I disagree. There appeared to be a legitimate cause to the Athens riots. In any case, there was a complaint and a message they wanted to get across.

I watched the news yesterday of a reporter trying to speak to one of the looters, who subsequently ran away. These people do not have a message. They do not want to be heard. They want to steal.

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I reckon that whatever the root cause was, it was probably more or less the same as the root cause of the 2005 Paris and 2008 Athens riots.

Evidence?
I'd have thought that the fact that early outbreaks seem to be concentrated in areas of higher than average deprivation, whilst not actually evidence of a similar cause, is at least a sign of some similarity with the development of 2005 Paris unrest.

To put it another way, so far there doesn't seem to be any significant differences between the development of 2011 London unrest, and the development of 2005 Paris unrest.

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Traveller
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The only thinking that needs to be done is about how to bring the guilty to justice - all of them - and hopefully stop shit like this from happening again.

I would agree, but how many people have been arrested in the riots? The news reports seem strangely quiet on this aspect. Even the BBC (scroll half-way down the page) are offering the suggestion that police procedures are not helpful (aka totally obstruct) arresting anyone involved. If there is no down-side to rioting (i.e. I might end up in court and get a meaningful penaly) and plenty of up-side (look at these shiny new toys I looted last night), why should anyone not riot?

--------------------
I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Let's face it: we've collectively allowed this to happen, because for the very great part, the underclass is not us. As long as they keep to their estates and their sink schools, and out of sight of decent people, we don't give a shit what goes on there. Only when it suddenly comes out onto our streets and affects our people do we demand something be done.

Oh FFS. You know nothing about the people posting on here. I grew up in a dog rough council estate in Ireland in the 80s (single mother with alcohol problem), was raised mostly by grandparents on benefits and money earned from low income menial jobs and went to a sequence of fairly useless state schools. By background I am the bloody underclass. And I grew up watching my grandparents and other vulnerable people on our estate being bullied and intimidated by the kind of thugs who are now busy terrorising their own communities in London. Who do you think uses the buses that are being trashed or works in the shops being burnt out? It isn't generally The Privileged. Its locals of all ethnicities who are probably quite poor themselves.
Well done. *clap clap clap*.

Ship of Fools is mostly - and I stress the mostly - scrotum-clenchingly educated middle-class professionals, whereever they happened to have grown up. I'm a country boy, me, grew up with the sons and daughters of farm labourers and manual workers. It's not where I am now, and I bet it's not where you are now either. And surprisingly enough, those burnt out shops and buses are just like the ones I use everyday in my city.

I'm not looking for excuses, I'm looking for reasons, followed rapidly by solutions. Marvin thinks we should napalm the council estates. I disagree.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It sounds as if you are saying that thinking about the bad behaviour is the same as approving it.

The only thinking that needs to be done is about how to bring the guilty to justice - all of them - and hopefully stop shit like this from happening again.
Well yes. And "how to stop shit like this from happening again" would have to include thinking about why some peopel do these things and others don't. Because if you don't do that you end up with always and only reacting.

quote:
Originally posted by krautfrau:

The underclass has nothing to do with poverty. It has been an organised destruction of the social structure in this country, to disenfranchise the masses due to liberal educational policies and social manipulation.

What ignorant bollocks!

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To put it another way, so far there doesn't seem to be any significant differences between the development of 2011 London unrest, and the development of 2005 Paris unrest.

Plenty. For a start, the Paris unrest was confined, mostly, to the banlieues where it's hard to find anything more than the most basic shops (no mobile phone or designer sportswear outlets), and where the violence was directed largely against the forces of law and order.

I'm not sure why the problem has not boiled over again, since nothing much has been done. I speculate that France has a better domestic, more intrusive and more discreet intelligence service than the UK and that reporting has something to do with it.

The Interior Ministry ordered the papers to postpone reporting statistics on the traditional New Year's Eve car burnings across France to inhibit the copycat effect, and it seems to have worked. I still think hysterical media reporting puts fuel on the fire.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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krautfrau
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Well its what this guy says

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566635055

and he should know working as a doctor in a high under class area in the midlands. I guess you are a white middle class professional? I grew up on a council housing estate in the north east where there was high Irish immigration and know that every word this guy says is true.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I reckon that whatever the root cause was, it was probably more or less the same as the root cause of the 2005 Paris and 2008 Athens riots.

I disagree. There appeared to be a legitimate cause to the Athens riots. In any case, there was a complaint and a message they wanted to get across.

I watched the news yesterday of a reporter trying to speak to one of the looters, who subsequently ran away. These people do not have a message. They do not want to be heard. They want to steal.

If we can believe the news reports its pretty obvious that different people were doing different things for different reasons.

There was the peaceful protest in Tottenham that started it which was one load of people with one motive, which was to make a point about the man who was shot (who may or may not have been a violent scumbag himself, but that's not really relevant)

Then that seemed to have kicked off into a riot against the police, involving a largely different group of people who started burning things. That had some connection with the original cause and some political idea behind it (though maybe it was just the politics of anger) Something similar may have started the trouble in Hackney the day after.

And then there seem to have been people taking advantage of the way the police were caught up with those situations to attack shops and steal. For example at Wood Green on Saturday, well over a mile away from the original protest. Different people in different areas with different motives. Some of them seem to be more or less organised thieves, like the ones who looted the Sony warehouse - which is out by the M25 and no-where near any of the other trouble, others just kids having an odd sort of fun. And some might have been little moro than passers-by seeing a broken window and joining in.

So no one root cause. Because its not one thing, its at least three or four different things.

And its not just done by one sort of person - some of them will look like part of this imaginary "underclass" but others are much more normal I think. Some of the looters will turn out to be the sons and daughters of quite ordinary people with jobs, maybe even doing well at school themselves. Not all of course, probably not most, but some.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by krautfrau:
Well its what this guy says

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566635055

and he should know working as a doctor in a high under class area in the midlands. I guess you are a white middle class professional? I grew up on a council housing estate in the north east where there was high Irish immigration and know that every word this guy says is true.

I've read some reviews of his books on Amazon and it's quite clear that he's a prejudiced cunt.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Chesterbelloc

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've read some reviews of his books on Amazon and it's quite clear that he's a prejudiced cunt.

[Roll Eyes] I would be very reluctant to go to the stake over every word uttered by the mouth of Anthony Daniels, but you're just making his case for him.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've read some reviews of his books on Amazon and it's quite clear that he's a prejudiced cunt.

[Roll Eyes] I would be very reluctant to go to the stake over every word uttered by the mouth of Anthony Daniels, but you're just making his case for him.
If his case is that intellectual dishonesty is 'destroying civilisation as we know it' then I'm pleased not to be intellectual. Just as Dawkins should stick to science, Daniels/Dalrymple should stick to medicine.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To put it another way, so far there doesn't seem to be any significant differences between the development of 2011 London unrest, and the development of 2005 Paris unrest.

Plenty. For a start, the Paris unrest was confined, mostly, to the banlieues where it's hard to find anything more than the most basic shops (no mobile phone or designer sportswear outlets), and where the violence was directed largely against the forces of law and order.
Hmm. Well, from where I'm standing, it looks as though the same is true of London.

Okay - so designer sportswear outlets and mobile phone shops have been hit. But, for the most part, these are still designer sportswear and mobile phone shops in shopping centres that are close to areas of high deprivation.

I don't know why it is, but the more fashionable areas of London and the Home Counties tend not to have such a high concentration of designer sportswear and mobile phone shops. Perhaps the more privileged classes think that sportswear and mobile phone chain stores are slightly chavvy, so the nimbys are more likely to object to them opening in the first place. Or maybe there's some other reason. I don't know.

So far, we have heard of Tesco and Lidl stores being attacked - but we have yet to hear any reports of any John Lewis stores being looted.

Never say never though. I still think it's early days yet.

Mind you, one key difference I've noticed between London now and Paris in 2005 is that the police numbers have been ramped up far higher far earlier this time.

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Ethne Alba
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While the situation continues,ISTM tha the root cause can't be really sensibly faced. Obviously folk are cross about the damage.

When tempers on all sides cool though, maybe we might want to ponder on the wisdom of a media that promises Live Updates.....

Which brings us back to the roots cause: Because they can.


(which is why all of us sin.... but most of us are more circumspect about it)

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
One would have to be dubious about the efficacy of these clubs in promoting social integration if when they close then there are riots.

Why dubious? You have a bunch of teens hanging around with nowhere to go and nothing to do.
Skip all the studies that show that youth clubs are one of more effective means of addressing youth underachievement, even an Empire as non-lefty-liberal as the Romans understood that you couldn't crucify the entire mob - bread and circuses for some.

quote:

So we give them what they want and open the youth clubs again want because they've now rioted? Isn't this just pandering to the entitlement mentality that sees people thinking they can break open a shop and take what they like?

Right. So what do you suggest we do? One protester, one bullet and charge the family? Arrest and stick them all in prison? For how long? What do we do when they get out?

If it's cost you are worried about, then a bunch of bankers getting massively subsidized by threatening to break the national economy when their criminality comes home to roost is actually far more expensive in real terms (and is arguably why we have to make the cuts in the first place).

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Geneviève

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From Marvinthe Martian:
There are plenty of poor people who accept their lot, get on with whatever work they can find and strive to better themselves.

There you have it. If poor people--in every country no doubt--, would just "accept their lot", etc...there wouldn't be any problems.
I can't comment on the British situation because I don't know it, but I have been wondering when the riots will come here--in America where everyone is supposed to have a chance to grow up to become president.

If you are poor and you rob and/or riot, you are a thug. If you are rich and you take advantage of the laws enacted to benefit you to screw others, you are smart, richer, and not responsible.

I'm not defending rioting and looting just pointing out the difference in language. I agree with Malik that the dominant group or class gets to define the terms used and the way the discourse goes.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh dear. Can you find where in the words you quoted I mentioned revolutions of starving masses?

I see. If you (rightly) think that your earlier words were such nonsense you don't want to be reminded of them a few hours later, why say them in the first place?
You're kidding, right? Nobody is ever allowed to change their mind? Just absolutely fucking priceless.

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Ricardus
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Warning for all posters analysing this in terms of poverty:
quote:
From the BBC:
32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.

Among them were a graphic designer, college students, a youth worker, a university graduate and a man signed up to join the army.



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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've read some reviews of his books on Amazon and it's quite clear that he's a prejudiced cunt.

You have it in you to be a true Millwall supporter sir.

While I might not use the same language, I think I agree with the assessment of Dr Dalrymple's politics. I have read his columns in the Spectator and elsewhere - my feeling it its 20% interesting observation, 30% common sense, 50% bigoted elitism.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Jessie Phillips
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I think I have made the mistake of assuming that there are more John Lewis stores in the Greater London area than there actually are. And the presence of a John Lewis store can't be used as a marker for an area being privileged. After all, Croydon has got one. And there have definitely been riots in Croydon.

quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
There you have it. If poor people--in every country no doubt--, would just "accept their lot", etc...there wouldn't be any problems.
I can't comment on the British situation because I don't know it, but I have been wondering when the riots will come here--in America where everyone is supposed to have a chance to grow up to become president.

If you are poor and you rob and/or riot, you are a thug. If you are rich and you take advantage of the laws enacted to benefit you to screw others, you are smart, richer, and not responsible.

You're quite right - but the thing is, actual rioting tends to be somewhat scarier.

Then again, maybe it's all just FUD created by the press. I don't doubt that there has been some real losses - but I suspect there's been a lot of FUD as well.

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Sioni Sais
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Oh shit.

Here I was, hoping and praying that things might calm down and someone at the IPCC lets this out.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Does this excuse any of the behaviour? No.

Then why are you saying it? Seems to me like your whole post was one long "if you were in their situation you'd be rioting as well", and if that isn't an attempt to blame the situation rather than the culprits then I don't know what is.
When people do bad stuff, there's usually a reason for it even if it's a twisted one. If I bludgeon my granny to death and bury her under the rose bush, that may be because I want her Staffordshire tea set or because her cat wee'd on me once too many. It's unlikely to be just because it happened to take my whimsy.

So I don't see why it's such an outrageous question to ask why people want to burn shops and cars. I mean I can see you might not regard it as the most pressing issue but I don't see why it draws such howls of rage from you, or why you feel the need to put the worst possible implications on it.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Sarah G
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I suspect the main reason people are rioting is because it's fun. And you get to nick stuff.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Does this excuse any of the behaviour? No.

Then why are you saying it? Seems to me like your whole post was one long "if you were in their situation you'd be rioting as well", and if that isn't an attempt to blame the situation rather than the culprits then I don't know what is.
There are reasons and there are excuses.
A reason is why something happened.
An excuse is why one should receive no blame for that which happened. I was addressing reasons. Without understanding the underlying reasons, one will have limited success preventing future occurrences.
My comment regarding triggers was more aimed to human nature. To think one is inherently above such bad behaviour is to fail to understand the dynamics. To be clear, this is not offering excuse.

ETA: Additionally, what Malik said.

[ 09. August 2011, 17:49: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Hallellou, hallellou

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redderfreak
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
I suspect the main reason people are rioting is because it's fun. And you get to nick stuff.

Agreed. And it has an added buzz if you're angry and frustrated.

What overriding biological mechanism causes us to not do this stuff all of the time? Is it peer pressure and fear of the consequences, which could be losing our freedom, if we get caught?

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You know I just couldn't make it by myself, I'm a little too blind to see

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angelicum
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quote:
Let's face it: we've collectively allowed this to happen, because for the very great part, the underclass is not us. As long as they keep to their estates and their sink schools, and out of sight of decent people, we don't give a shit what goes on there. Only when it suddenly comes out onto our streets and affects our people do we demand something be done.
Why is this wrong though? That's what I've been thinking about these last few days actually.

Why are other people my responsibility. My responsibility surely is to myself, to obey the laws, pay my taxes (which benefits everyone), look after my family, etc. Why should I champion the cause of other people where it doesn't necessarily align with my own admittedly selfish causes? Is it against the law or does it necessarily make me an irresponsible member of society?

In other words, apart from the bare minimum, i.e. taxation, etc which benefits everybody....why should I not just choose to care for and speak on behalf of only people who I like?

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To put it another way, so far there doesn't seem to be any significant differences between the development of 2011 London unrest, and the development of 2005 Paris unrest.

Plenty. For a start, the Paris unrest was confined, mostly, to the banlieues where it's hard to find anything more than the most basic shops (no mobile phone or designer sportswear outlets), and where the violence was directed largely against the forces of law and order.
Hmm. Well, from where I'm standing, it looks as though the same is true of London.

London simply has nowhere that is like the Paris banlieues any more than it has anywhere like some US cities ethnic ghettoes. Its all much more mixed up than that. Though I suppose Thamesmead might look a little like some fo the grottier suburbs of Paris.

quote:

Okay - so designer sportswear outlets and mobile phone shops have been hit. But, for the most part, these are still designer sportswear and mobile phone shops in shopping centres that are close to areas of high deprivation.

True, but pretty much everywhere in inner London, and almost everywhere in Greater London is close to areas of high deprivation. Just as all the poorest areas are near to wealthy areas. Battersea (which is where Clapham Junction is) is right next to Clapham, and over the river from Chelsea. Brixton has its own posh bits. Peckham has its own posh bits, and the top end of it is only a mile or so south of the City, and the southern end a couple of miles north of Dulwich. Lewisham and Deptford are adjacent to Blackheath (& there is some pretty upmarket housing at Brokley and Telegraph Hill as well). Hackney also has its own posh bits, and its walking distance from the City. Tottenham and Enfield are a aort of industrial pseudopod of the East End up the Lea Valley but are overlooked by leafy suburbia on both sides. (A few years ago I took this photo here not far from Tottenham Hale where last week's shooting happened - I I walked past that very spot on my way back to the station - if you look carefully you can see Stamford Hill in the distance looking weirdly rural)

quote:

I don't know why it is, but the more fashionable areas of London and the Home Counties tend not to have such a high concentration of designer sportswear and mobile phone shops. Perhaps the more privileged classes think that sportswear and mobile phone chain stores are slightly chavvy, so the nimbys are more likely to object to them opening in the first place. Or maybe there's some other reason. I don't know.

True, there aren't a lot of posh shops getting looted. That might be because posh shops tend not to be in residential areas and most of this looting seems to be being done on foot - these kids don't have cars (though some have bicycles) and lots of them aren't old enough to drive. Also they know that it is easier to escape from the police on foot than in a car. And maybe they have no use for whatever it is they sell in Richmond that you can't get in Tooting.


The looted shops certainly look like a litany of grotty chavdom. If we can believe the blog I linked to earlier South East London's toll last night was:

New Cross: Curry's (looted)

Lewisham: Game Station (broken window), Superdrug (broken window), Mothercare (looted), Sports Direct (broken windows)

Peckham: Payday Loans, Corals bookies, Western Union, a chemist's, The Money Shop, Ladbrokes, Burger King, Poundland, Phones 4 U, Iceland, Primark, Clarks

Its not exactly Knightbridge or Mayfair is it?

Also notable that - at least in this area - they seem to have gone for chains rather than locally owned shops (though of course some of those may have been franchises branded as chains). I can think of half a dozen reasons why that might happen, not all mutually exclusive.

quote:

Mind you, one key difference I've noticed between London now and Paris in 2005 is that the police numbers have been ramped up far higher far earlier this time.

I think London may have more police than any other city in the world. Not sure how I would test that. The Met is definitely larger than NYPD - it has about 50,000 employees of which over 30,000 are trained police officers.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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art dunce
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quote:
In other words, apart from the bare minimum, i.e. taxation, etc which benefits everybody....why should I not just choose to care for and speak on behalf of only people who I like?
Well all the rage and frustration of being disenfranchised will eventually seek catharsis in the forms your seeing now and since they have no investment in your lovely world they'll think nothing of watching it burn.

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Ego is not your amigo.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Oh shit.

Here I was, hoping and praying that things might calm down and someone at the IPCC lets this out.

No, I think that's good news.

First, everyone already believed that anyway it can't make things worse.

Second, any other announcement would be treated as a provocative lie. (There are still people who think the New Cross fire of 1981 was murder and the police are lying about it)

Third, it justifies the stance of the original protestors so it enables them to stand down with honour.

Fourth it lets people see that "questions are being answered" and there may not be a cover-up and that the IPCC might not just be a tool of the police - which is probably what most Londoners think of it (including me to be honest)

But, as we have all said, it seems that the vast majority of these looters are not connected with the protest about Mr Dugan anyway, so it might not make much difference.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:


In other words, apart from the bare minimum, i.e. taxation, etc which benefits everybody....why should I not just choose to care for and speak on behalf of only people who I like?

There's a thread elsewhere in Purg about whether Christians should be 'better' which has descended into a pointless argument about what it means by 'better'. It still has some relevance here and if you're a parent you will know that while there are times you don't like your kids, you still love them. That's what we are called to do for our fellow man, despite the injunctions of certain populist politicians.

If you don't like the Christian arguments then the John Donne quote 'No man is an island' might satisfy you.

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Boogie

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On the BBC news website Dr James Treadwell - a criminologist from the University of Leicester, suggests that the argument over whether this is about a reaction to deprivation or the chaos of a "feral underclass", is missing what's actually happening.

He says the looting -


quote:
Is much less about riot and protest and much more about opportunistic theft, usually by young men.

There are not the pitched battles between police and protesters that marked riots in the 1980s, or even the recent student protests, but are sporadic outbreaks of looting.

"It's about the acquisition of goods, it's quite planned, it's about getting hold of a new laptop," he says, describing this as a kind of violent materialism.

He describes this as "lawless masculinity", akin to football hooliganism, fuelled by excitement and consumerism, grabbing the items that give young men status - mobile phones, computers, trainers, jewellery.

"This is where having a new pair of trainers is the most important thing, where success is measured by the mobile phone or the jacket you're wearing,"

I think he's on to something there.

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malik3000
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"a litany of grotty chavdom"

Politically incorrect, Ken, but quite a turn of phrase. [Snigger]

[ 09. August 2011, 18:38: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
True, but pretty much everywhere in inner London, and almost everywhere in Greater London is close to areas of high deprivation. Just as all the poorest areas are near to wealthy areas. Battersea (which is where Clapham Junction is) is right next to Clapham, and over the river from Chelsea. Brixton has its own posh bits. Peckham has its own posh bits, and the top end of it is only a mile or so south of the City, and the southern end a couple of miles north of Dulwich. Lewisham and Deptford are adjacent to Blackheath (& there is some pretty upmarket housing at Brokley and Telegraph Hill as well). Hackney also has its own posh bits, and its walking distance from the City. Tottenham and Enfield are a aort of industrial pseudopod of the East End up the Lea Valley but are overlooked by leafy suburbia on both sides.

All very true.

Which is what makes it all the more remarkable that the rioting appears to be concentrated in areas of high deprivation.

If the rich and the poor were living that closely cheek by jowl, then you'd have thought it wouldn't be possible to tell the difference.

I for one can't pretend I'm not scared. And I can't pretend that alleviating the fear is what motivates me to play the omen-spotting game. But trying to leave that aside for a moment, I can't help think it's a bit of a tragedy that people seem to be shitting on their own doorsteps.

Then again, targeting retail premises is arguably always going to net you richer pickings than residential properties. Even if those residential properties are in the leafier areas. It seems to me that the residential properties that have so far borne the greatest brunt of the unrest have been those above retailers - and above home furnishing retailers in particular.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
On the BBC news website Dr James Treadwell - a criminologist from the University of Leicester, suggests that the argument over whether this is about a reaction to deprivation or the chaos of a "feral underclass", is missing what's actually happening.

I agree. But the thing is, regardless of whether we blame the poor for their own poverty or not, and regardless of whether we think the poor are to be more pitied than the rich or not on the grounds that they're less likely to have insurance for this sort of thing - it still seems to me that we live in at least two cities.

You trash a shop just to half-inch the latest gadget, and it seems to me that the people who get caught in the cross-fire are far more likely to be poor than rich. It seems to me that rich people tend to live much much further away from shops than poor people.

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Ethne Alba
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lawness masculinity ....isn't quite it though, is it?

our young women were out last night and the night before

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angelicum
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quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
quote:
In other words, apart from the bare minimum, i.e. taxation, etc which benefits everybody....why should I not just choose to care for and speak on behalf of only people who I like?
Well all the rage and frustration of being disenfranchised will eventually seek catharsis in the forms your seeing now and since they have no investment in your lovely world they'll think nothing of watching it burn.
So is that all it boils down to?

Is talk of fairness in essence the politics of appeasement to the "give me what you have or I'll burn the place down" crowd?

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I for one can't pretend I'm not scared. And I can't pretend that alleviating the fear is what motivates me to play the omen-spotting game.

Damn my own bad proof-reading of my own posts. Should read, "And I can't pretend that wanting to alleviate that fear does not motivate me to play the omen-spotting game." Or something like that, anyway.

Ah, the whole sentence is confusing. Sorry about that. What I was trying to say is that I try to reassure myself that things aren't that bad, by looking for parallels with previous unrest, and in particular with the developments that brought such previous unrest to an end.

I'm confident that it will end eventually, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

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