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Originally posted by Papio.:

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Originally posted by LatePaul:

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Originally posted by Papio.:
I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.

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How are you defining that? Just curious.

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Able to know, without having to think too much, what emotions other are presenting and whether these seem genuine. Ability to know you feel. Politeness. Ability to leave alone. Ability to push someone if that is appropriate.

FWIW - I think I could improve on some of these.

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Ideally (and I stress ideally), I would like my gf to have a 2:1 or 1st class honours degree*, to be well read, to be articulate, to be emotionally literate and to be able to live and let live most of the time. I assume that this is also what most women mean by intelligence?

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Originally posted by Papio.:

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Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
However, beyond a certain point they find it harder to get partners. This kicks in at 140ish for men BUT 125 for women.

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But as you said, IQ scores are complete and absolute bollocks. I have had been tested 4 times, and the difference between the lowest and highest scores is over 20 points. And, no, there is not a progressive increase each time.

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Actually I didn't say they were bollocks, I would rather categorise them as one possible indicator of intelligence - intelligence being something that is more than one-dimensional, as you recognised when you posted about literacy, emotional sensitivity and all of that elsewhere. I don't know how you were tested, but the standard tests are expected to produce that kind of wild swing when you're several standard deviations from the mean. I mean, I bet your result didn't ever come out as 89, did it?

I suspect that most of us accumulate stereotypes about what we are/aren't looking for, why we think we are/aren't hitched up ourselves, etc. In my history, for every gloriously erudite bloke whose dazzling wit could keep me entertained for weeks there's a shambling, bearded and be-corduroy'ed academic who's absolutely clueless in the real world except insofar as he can latch onto a more sorted-out woman to deal with domestic complexities. And so on...

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

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Originally posted by josephine:

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Originally posted by Tubbs:
Stuff like this makes me want to spit in the speaker's eye:

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Originally posted by josephine:
Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?

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Sorry you feel that way, Tubbs. I had seriously overdosed on Katrina news last week, among other things, and was feeling angry and uncharitable when I read the OP.

Nouwen asked for a theological answer to her friend's problem. Since I didn't say it particularly well the first time, I'll try again. The theological answer is that you don't always get what you want. Not only that, but you don't always get what you deserve. Solomon himself said that the fastest person doesn't always win the race. Likewise, the most lovely, most gracious, most charming person doesn't always get a spouse. As my father always said, life's not fair; get used to it. Solomon said time and chance happen to everyone.

Life is difficult. It hurts. Bad things happen. And good things happen, too. Sometimes the good things and bad things that happen are the consequences of choices you've made -- you got an A because you studied hard; you got an F because you didn't turn in any homework all semester.

But many times, most times perhaps, the good things you get are not the result of anything you've done; you didn't get them because you are better than anyone else, or worked harder, or had more faith, or because God loves you more. Same with the bad things -- they're not because of anything you've done or failed to do, not a result of a lack of faith, not because God hates you or is holding back on you. They just happen.

That's not an easy answer to accept, I know. But it's the answer that I believe is true.

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Rat - I agree with all that, broadly speaking.

I don't think that formal education is always the same as acadcemic intelligence or that academic intelligence is the only form of intelligence.

So far as I know, that isn't what I said. But I thought all of what you said was conveyed in what I said.

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Originally posted by Papio.:
*Is that really snobby?

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Yes but I know what you mean. Im a snob too. While I can see what LMM is saying about academic being different to intelligent (and I have met her in real life and found her to be both articulate and emotionally literate) I probably have to admit to the same standards. And as my mother tells me intellectual snobbery is still snobbery and it isn't attractive. I'm not saying I'd have an application form for being my boyfriend with "second class honours or below need not apply" on it but I'd wonder whether the person had the same values as me. Education is a luxury and I might see an intelligent man choosing to squander it as being a tad irresponsible. Of course there are reasons and I fell apart a bit in my third year but luckily it was modular and I knew name on the paper in the last exam was enough for my 2:1.

Emotionally literate is interesting. I think of myself as being fairly emotionally literate. For the work I've been good at, just being bright wouldn't have been enough. Good facilitation and mentoring needs someone who can judge people and situations. And I think I'm a good friend but when it comes to knowing if people like me romantically I'm utterly dense. A really good friend of mine (now happlily settled with a partner I like very much) recently told me that on an occasion a few years ago he came to visit me with the intention of trying to get together with me. I was so staggered by this because I had no clue, I hadn’t realised at all.

Maybe that is my problem. Im too bright but not emotionally intelligent enough.

For what it's worth tho I'm a fabulous ex-girlfriend. It's my romantic skill. I'm surprised there aren’t queues of young men outside my door waiting to date me and dump me. So if there are any late 20something early 30something men out there who want a great ex girlfriend who will cook for you when you are passing through the city, listen to your problems, take your wedding photos etc. Applications stating academic qualifications will be taken by PM.

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Originally posted by Ms Lilith:
So if there are any late 20something early 30something men out there who want a great ex girlfriend who will cook for you when you are passing through the city, listen to your problems, take your wedding photos etc.

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Applications stating academic qualifications will be taken by PM.

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Bugger. I've only got an Ordinary Degree. Ah well, win some lose some ...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Originally posted by Tubbs:
When someone is in tears, the only possible answer is “It’s Because They’re All Numbskulls Who Don’t Know A Good Thing When They See It! ™” along with offers of tea, tissues and biscuits.

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And then there are the situations when the only solution is to voice certain unpalatable truths about your friend in the hope that it may encourage them to change.

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Originally posted by josephine:
Ah, yes. Mousethief has a friend who has no trouble at all getting first dates, but can't ever get a woman to go out with him a second time. Unfortunately, when he asks friends what the problem is, he doesn't seem to be able to hear the answer.

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
.... It appears to me you took a positive and general statement about a good way to live one's life and turned it on its head to an intensively personal and negative one. Is this a Lutheran thing?

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Sine, your kindness knows no bounds. Not to mention your charming avoidance of generalities.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
.... It appears to me you took a positive and general statement about a good way to live one's life and turned it on its head to an intensively personal and negative one. Is this a Lutheran thing?

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Sine, your kindness knows no bounds. Not to mention your charming avoidance of generalities.

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Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I've met qutie a few never married female PhDs and relatively few males.

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What are the differences between married and never-married women PhDs ?
I wonder if there are some psychological differences that might explain why some get hitched and some don't. The married ones I know are stable and happy, but one thing they have in common is that they have interests outside work and can handle non-academic types of people. Not all academics one comes across are like this.

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I think you're right that being "only" an academic could put people off you (and this applies to either gender.) But the idea I was exploring was that maybe the reason so many apparently bright, attractive, cheerful female PhDs go "untaken" might be that they simply have a much smaller pool of potential partners to chose from (since so few less-educated men are wiling to consider them as possibilities, and there just aren't many male PhDs (or intellectual equivalents) to go around.)

I mean, you meet male department heads (PhD taken for granted, intelligence likely, though not guaranteed ) with wives who were lucky to graduate from high school. But when was the last time you met a female academic (or intellectual equivalent) with a husband who never did college?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Originally posted by Papio.:
I had a good time, did not work that hard, and still got a 1st.

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Maybe you would have more sucess with women if you used that as your chat up line?

LMM

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Tell me where you learned the magic,
The spell you used the day you made me fall....

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Originally posted by Papio.:

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Originally posted by Papio.:

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Originally posted by LatePaul:

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Originally posted by Papio.:
I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.

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How are you defining that? Just curious.

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Able to know, without having to think too much, what emotions other are presenting and whether these seem genuine. Ability to know you feel. Politeness. Ability to leave alone. Ability to push someone if that is appropriate.

FWIW - I think I could improve on some of these.

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Bearing my brother in mind, I know that Asperger's Syndrome, for example, effects these abilities.

But for those without AS etc...

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It's funny you should say that because I was about to say that the person I've personally met who is the cleverest is not very emotionally literate. He's aware of it though as he once told me that his brother had AS and he suspected he might have a mild case of it himself.

So, not to split hairs, but I feel that whilst emotional literacy is undoubtedly a desirable trait in a partner it is not, IMO, a necessary part of intelligence per se.

(btw so long as I'm nit-picking I think you mean that AS affects those qualities. If it effected them then your brother and my friend would be more, not less, emotionally literate. )

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Originally posted by mertide:
Isn't the size of that pool within their control, though? If highly educated women don't consider lesser educated men to be acceptable partners, and highly educated men do consider lesser educated women to be acceptable, then those women have a lot of competition for that small group of men. If those women as well as a high education level insist on physical attractiveness, social adeptness, and even openness to a particular religious outlook, they're looking at a very small pool indeed that are their targets, while those same men may have a potential mate pool tens or hundreds times bigger, and may themselves have certain "must haves" for a spouse that have nothing to do with the quality of the degree. It's not exactly God withholding marriage if the women withhold themselves from the vast majority of men who might be interested in them.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are.

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degree-educated men married to hairdressers, shop-assistants and the like.

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Maybe you would have more sucess with women if you used that as your chat up line?

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Originally posted by RuthW:
QUOTE]In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are. Crossing education off her list of desireable qualities in a mate will frequently not increase the size of the pool of potential mates for a well-educated woman; less well-educated men typically don't want her.

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Originally posted by Emma.:
hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!!
(good education and iq)

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by Emma.:
hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!!
(good education and iq)

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All you have to do is not look down your nose at plumbers and taxi drivers...

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I can see the adverts now..."Black cab drivers - we always know the quickest way!" -- but would they stop talking once they got there?! Could bring a whole new meaning to the inevitable phrase, "Do you know who I had in the back of the cab last week?"

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

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Originally posted by mertide:
My experience is more that highly educated women are far more likely to reject say a tradesman or someone with a lesser education, even a lesser standard degree, with a "just not my type" than the rejection going the other way.

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Originally posted by saysay:
I also think it takes an extremely secure man to be able to deal with it.

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Exactly. The one relationship I had with a man who didn't have a college degree eventually foundered, in part because of his perception that I looked down on him for not finishing college. This was really his own feelings of failure and inadequacy projected onto me, but it didn't matter; sometimes I made him feel bad about himself just by being who I am.

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Originally posted by mertide:
...Take on "fixer-uppers"?

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Originally posted by mertide:
Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?

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Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.

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It shouldn't be surprising if they're alone because career or intellectual pursuits take precedence over fulfilment in a relationship.

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Archaic social convention shouldn't restrict the modern woman from taking the traditional male role in initiating contact.

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Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.

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Originally posted by mertide:
Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?

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Well, I "expanded the age range" by marrying about 20 years above myself, and also the "culture range" by marrying an Asian. But I don't think all cultures have the same issues as Western ones with regards to education and romance. At least, my husband feels no need to hide the fact that his wife is highly educated (of course, he has nearly as much himself) and in fact others in the community tend to regard me as a "trophy wife" (shows what THEY know) .

To be sure, there is a strong tendency there as well to marry equally in as many respects as possible, and I HAVE met Asian men who were vastly insecure and took out their feelings on their somewhat more educated wives. The difference is maybe that the community condemns him for it. She is not the oddity; he is.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Just for clarification. I know what an intelligent woman is. What's an "intelligent" woman? And is there some reason why 'more important personal issues' are more wrong for her, than they would be for anyone else, say, a man or a married woman?

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So while waiting, or aggressively searching for Mr Right, women should forget about the bills, the rent, the need to earn a decent wage in order to live a reasonable life? And, further, they should be willing to sacrifice 'intellectual pursuits' just in case they may be perceived as taking precedence over a bloke?

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I can certainly understand a woman who has been a victim of abuse being wary of future relationships, or caught in a spiral of harmful relationships. I'm wondering how the academic, career and "intellectual" profile of a woman should necessarily be connected with that.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.

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A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
I suspect most men have a perfectly fair and reasonable expectation that they can have satisfying work, should they need it, mental stimulation and a partner should they wish it. And I'm disappointed that anyone should feel that oughtn't to apply for both sexes.

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Originally posted by Gort:

It takes work to find that special someone and it's easier to write off failure as an act of God or lack of available, qualified candidates. As I mentioned earlier, aggressive action helps if finding a compatible partner is important.

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Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.

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I definetely feel I've seen this in some people, and was just discussing this sort of thing with a (female) friend last night in fact.
Sometimes the problems get expressed in the work too, which can complicate things even further. It takes real clear-sightedness to be able to handle the connection between both spheres. IME there are some women like this who don't necessarily help because they pass on a cynical view of men into the academic culture (for example), and this then influences younger women who are just starting off, but who have problems of their own that need dealing with. So it becoms a vicious circle.


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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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Originally posted by saysay:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.

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A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?

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I read this differently. I don't think Gort was saying that it's dishonest to prioritize those things over finding a mate, but that women should admit that that's what they're doing.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
[...] But it's no easier for a woman to cooly select the 'I'm hunting for a man' option in the game of life than the 'I'm trying to earn a living' or 'I'm trying to be a good daughter and take care of my invalid parents' options.

And it really does sound as if you're saying that women who wish to be married ought not to give a priority to the same extent that men do to 'intellectual pursuits'. Otherwise they've only got themselves to blame! I know what you're saying is a bit more complex than this, but so is living life as it comes and doing what needs to be done regardless of what one might wish to do.

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Originally posted by Emma.:
ok - so if a single woman was going to "prioritize" marriage - er, what would she do then?! Im puzzled.....

(im not desperate to jump into it again - just curious as to the asnwer!)

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Keep it upper most in your thoughts. Make yourself available. Seek out groups of singles. Dress up. Flirt. Be friendly, outgoing, fun... pinch an arse once in awhile.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Originally posted by LatePaul:
So, not to split hairs, but I feel that whilst emotional literacy is undoubtedly a desirable trait in a partner it is not, IMO, a necessary part of intelligence per se.

(btw so long as I'm nit-picking I think you mean that AS affects those qualities. If it effected them then your brother and my friend would be more, not less, emotionally literate. )

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Yes, I kind of realise that I was subsuming things into the catergory of intelligence that were not strictly the same thing. I certainly would not want to claim my brother was dim. He isn't...

And, yes, I do tend to confuse "affect" and "effect".

LMM - I hadn't realised until I re-read this thread a minute ago just how bitchy my reply to you must have sounded and probably, in fact, was. FWIW, I enjoyed meeting you at the 2004 (?) Artists meet and I enjoy chatting to you in the cafe. I apologise for the horrible comment.

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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page

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Originally posted by Gort:
However, I try to the best of my ability to accept responsibility for using everything in my power to accomplish those things that I firmly desire.

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Ultimately I accept responsibility for the fact that I'm single. Yes, it is very difficult to meet potential dates but on the rare occasion that I am not exactly the ideal date However, going back to the OP, that doesn't stop me from getting really, really cross with God sometimes. He knows exactly why I find it so hard to trust people and why I run away if there's any chance that I'm going to get hurt. I struggle to understand why God leaves me to battle my problems on my own. I used to pray that God would help me find a situation where I would meet someone special. Now that I've realised that a relationship/marriage is highly improbable I ask Him to give me strength to accept the fact that I'm single. So far He doesn't seem to listen to that request either! I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that God is deaf when it comes to human relationships.