Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: God witholding marriage from the single person
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Papio
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/4201.jpg) Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Papio.: quote: Originally posted by LatePaul: quote: Originally posted by Papio.: I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.
How are you defining that? Just curious.
Able to know, without having to think too much, what emotions other are presenting and whether these seem genuine. Ability to know you feel. Politeness. Ability to leave alone. Ability to push someone if that is appropriate.
FWIW - I think I could improve on some of these.
Bearing my brother in mind, I know that Asperger's Syndrome, for example, effects these abilities.
But for those without AS etc...
-------------------- Infinite Penguins. My "Readit, Swapit" page My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Niënna
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/4652.jpg) Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Hmm... I must be one of the very few that thinks intelligence is over-rated... I'd rather have a kind bloke than a bright one. I've met so many intellectual idiots that quite honestly I want someone who is loving rather than intellectually stimulating. In the end, the guys who have made a greater impression on me are the ones who are patient and kind and unselfish rather than those who are quick-witted or clever. Honest to God, I think the ones who are most intelligent are the ones who less parade it.
-------------------- [Nino points a gun at Chiki] Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war? Chiki: [long pause] We did. ~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Papio.: Ideally (and I stress ideally), I would like my gf to have a 2:1 or 1st class honours degree*, to be well read, to be articulate, to be emotionally literate and to be able to live and let live most of the time. I assume that this is also what most women mean by intelligence?
I think if I were to define the kind of intelligence I'd look for in a man, I wouldn't necessarily get too hung up on education as more than a very rough guide. I know some degree educated people who I'd be hard pushed to define as intelligent.
For me (and this is obviously subjective and probably predjudiced to some degree) the signs of intelligence I would look for are being well and reasonably broadly read, and having a well-travelled mind. By which I don't necessarily mean they should have travelled, but that they are interested in things and people and experiences outside themselves, and willing to admit that their own experience is neither universal nor a clinching argument.
And they must be able to argue their point of view. That's essential. And be confident enough in their own intelligence to deal with the fact that I will disagree with them and argue my point, often and at length and sometimes just for the sake of it. An amazing number of otherwise reasonable men get huffy or angry if you dare to do anything but agree with their latest pronouncement - that is a total no-no for me. I'm not good at tact, or all that sneaky make-him-think-it-was-his-idea-all-along stuff. And, frankly, I don't believe any man I could respect would be fooled by either for any length of time
So an ability to defend his point of view and enjoy doing it, and not take himself too seriously, is a good pointer to intelligence for me, partly because it implies not having anything to prove. And if he can argue me round to his point of view just now and again, or at least persuade me to re-assess in the light of new information, I will - in a rather stereotypically girly way - be terribly impressed and probably fancy him a lot more.
-------------------- It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Papio
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/4201.jpg) Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Rat - I agree with all that, broadly speaking.
I don't think that formal education is always the same as acadcemic intelligence or that academic intelligence is the only form of intelligence.
So far as I know, that isn't what I said. But I thought all of what you said was conveyed in what I said.
-------------------- Infinite Penguins. My "Readit, Swapit" page My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Joan_of_Quark
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/9887.jpg) Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Papio.: quote: Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark: However, beyond a certain point they find it harder to get partners. This kicks in at 140ish for men BUT 125 for women.
But as you said, IQ scores are complete and absolute bollocks. I have had been tested 4 times, and the difference between the lowest and highest scores is over 20 points. And, no, there is not a progressive increase each time.
Actually I didn't say they were bollocks, I would rather categorise them as one possible indicator of intelligence - intelligence being something that is more than one-dimensional, as you recognised when you posted about literacy, emotional sensitivity and all of that elsewhere. I don't know how you were tested, but the standard tests are expected to produce that kind of wild swing when you're several standard deviations from the mean. I mean, I bet your result didn't ever come out as 89, did it?
I suspect that most of us accumulate stereotypes about what we are/aren't looking for, why we think we are/aren't hitched up ourselves, etc. In my history, for every gloriously erudite bloke whose dazzling wit could keep me entertained for weeks there's a shambling, bearded and be-corduroy'ed academic who's absolutely clueless in the real world except insofar as he can latch onto a more sorted-out woman to deal with domestic complexities. And so on...
-------------------- "I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!" further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Tubbs
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/admin.gif) Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by josephine: quote: Originally posted by Tubbs: Stuff like this makes me want to spit in the speaker's eye: quote: Originally posted by josephine: Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?
Sorry you feel that way, Tubbs. I had seriously overdosed on Katrina news last week, among other things, and was feeling angry and uncharitable when I read the OP.
Nouwen asked for a theological answer to her friend's problem. Since I didn't say it particularly well the first time, I'll try again. The theological answer is that you don't always get what you want. Not only that, but you don't always get what you deserve. Solomon himself said that the fastest person doesn't always win the race. Likewise, the most lovely, most gracious, most charming person doesn't always get a spouse. As my father always said, life's not fair; get used to it. Solomon said time and chance happen to everyone.
Life is difficult. It hurts. Bad things happen. And good things happen, too. Sometimes the good things and bad things that happen are the consequences of choices you've made -- you got an A because you studied hard; you got an F because you didn't turn in any homework all semester.
But many times, most times perhaps, the good things you get are not the result of anything you've done; you didn't get them because you are better than anyone else, or worked harder, or had more faith, or because God loves you more. Same with the bad things -- they're not because of anything you've done or failed to do, not a result of a lack of faith, not because God hates you or is holding back on you. They just happen.
That's not an easy answer to accept, I know. But it's the answer that I believe is true.
That’s more like it, thanks for the clarification.
The thing is, questions like “Why am I still single?” come from the heart. While answers like yours – which I agree with pretty much - come from the head.
When someone is in tears, the only possible answer is “It’s Because They’re All Numbskulls Who Don’t Know A Good Thing When They See It! ™” along with offers of tea, tissues and biscuits.
When someone is calmer and more receptive, then your answer is appropriate. Phased correctly, it’s honest, truthful and to the point.
And then there are the situations when the only solution is to voice certain unpalatable truths about your friend in the hope that it may encourage them to change. Things like banging on endlessly about previous relationships does not make someone inviting to anyone new.
Tubbs
-------------------- "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jazzuk777
Shipmate
# 5720
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Papio.: Rat - I agree with all that, broadly speaking.
I don't think that formal education is always the same as acadcemic intelligence or that academic intelligence is the only form of intelligence.
So far as I know, that isn't what I said. But I thought all of what you said was conveyed in what I said.
Papio I am glad you qualified your earlier statements somewhat. To suggest that you look for a partner based on their qualifications, left me in disbelief! Some of us don't have degrees at all, for reasons completely not to do with our intellectual ability - I am frequently told by people they are surprised I don't have a degree.
I don't consider myself especially intelligent, or not - frankly it's not something I consider important, say like things such as, willingness to think about things, humour, love, integrity...it tends to be the unwillingness to consider things/people rather than the inability, that generally gets my goat anyway! [ 15. September 2005, 20:19: Message edited by: Jazzuk777 ]
-------------------- You spit out mannah/ God sends quails - the 77s
Posts: 281 | From: ....an original idea by God. (c)1970 all rights reserved. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ms Lilith
Shipmate
# 1767
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Posted
It is true. I stand by what I said. Men will respect you and like you and be your friend and even love you a bit for being their intellectual equal but they choose pretty little women who will look up to them for being so clever. Or worse, clever manipulative women who are content to play at being the admiring dim pretty girl who lets her man make the decisions. If a man's ego needs this, he really isn’t worth the bother and I couldn’t respect him. I figure I'd be better off dying alone and being eaten by kittens.
quote: Originally posted by Papio.: *Is that really snobby?
Yes but I know what you mean. Im a snob too. While I can see what LMM is saying about academic being different to intelligent (and I have met her in real life and found her to be both articulate and emotionally literate) I probably have to admit to the same standards. And as my mother tells me intellectual snobbery is still snobbery and it isn't attractive. I'm not saying I'd have an application form for being my boyfriend with "second class honours or below need not apply" on it but I'd wonder whether the person had the same values as me. Education is a luxury and I might see an intelligent man choosing to squander it as being a tad irresponsible. Of course there are reasons and I fell apart a bit in my third year but luckily it was modular and I knew name on the paper in the last exam was enough for my 2:1.
Emotionally literate is interesting. I think of myself as being fairly emotionally literate. For the work I've been good at, just being bright wouldn't have been enough. Good facilitation and mentoring needs someone who can judge people and situations. And I think I'm a good friend but when it comes to knowing if people like me romantically I'm utterly dense. A really good friend of mine (now happlily settled with a partner I like very much) recently told me that on an occasion a few years ago he came to visit me with the intention of trying to get together with me. I was so staggered by this because I had no clue, I hadn’t realised at all.
Maybe that is my problem. Im too bright but not emotionally intelligent enough.
For what it's worth tho I'm a fabulous ex-girlfriend. It's my romantic skill. I'm surprised there aren’t queues of young men outside my door waiting to date me and dump me. So if there are any late 20something early 30something men out there who want a great ex girlfriend who will cook for you when you are passing through the city, listen to your problems, take your wedding photos etc. Applications stating academic qualifications will be taken by PM.
Posts: 266 | From: birmingham | Registered: Nov 2001
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Papio
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/4201.jpg) Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
I have also met LMM and also found her as you said.
Am leaving this alone now for a bit, because I am clearly not using certain words in the way that most people understand them. Or, at least, it looks that way to me.
-------------------- Infinite Penguins. My "Readit, Swapit" page My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Marvin the Martian
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/admin.gif) Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ms Lilith: So if there are any late 20something early 30something men out there who want a great ex girlfriend who will cook for you when you are passing through the city, listen to your problems, take your wedding photos etc.
Hmmm. And I'm even in the same city...
quote: Applications stating academic qualifications will be taken by PM.
Bugger. I've only got an Ordinary Degree. Ah well, win some lose some ...
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ms Lilith
Shipmate
# 1767
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Posted
What makes you think you are being misunderstood? Seemed clear enough to me. Or have I misunderstood?
Posts: 266 | From: birmingham | Registered: Nov 2001
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Josephine
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/3899.jpg) Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Tubbs: When someone is in tears, the only possible answer is “It’s Because They’re All Numbskulls Who Don’t Know A Good Thing When They See It! ™” along with offers of tea, tissues and biscuits.
Oh, absolutely. And if instead of asking, "What's the theological answer to this problem?" nouwen had asked, "What should I have done?" -- well, that's what you do. And I'm sure that's what nouwen did.
quote: And then there are the situations when the only solution is to voice certain unpalatable truths about your friend in the hope that it may encourage them to change.
Ah, yes. Mousethief has a friend who has no trouble at all getting first dates, but can't ever get a woman to go out with him a second time. Unfortunately, when he asks friends what the problem is, he doesn't seem to be able to hear the answer.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ms Lilith
Shipmate
# 1767
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by josephine: Ah, yes. Mousethief has a friend who has no trouble at all getting first dates, but can't ever get a woman to go out with him a second time. Unfortunately, when he asks friends what the problem is, he doesn't seem to be able to hear the answer.
Oh dear! What is the answer? Or do I want to cherish my ignorance on that? [ 15. September 2005, 22:00: Message edited by: Ms Lilith ]
Posts: 266 | From: birmingham | Registered: Nov 2001
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andrew1066
Apprentice
# 10360
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Posted
my experience similar to Little Miss methodist, my degree is a 3rd, the polite expression is "poet's third", but it was as much that I was drunk most of the time (inadequate immature chemically dependent etc); AND when mid-degree I got a fully-funded fees+accommodation scholarship to read in the USA for a PhD, my dad's response (Why do you want to be an academic? they're all lazy fools, why not get a proper job, etc [and he had a degree himself!]) was such that I just gave up, there was simply no way to gain his approval or commendation no matter what I did, no matter how hard I studied or excelled, so I thought "I'll show you who's lazy etc" and never looked at another book or did another stroke of academic work, though I did go to the exams; and I have taken 2 IQ tests in my life, one when I was 16 scored 78 and the other when I was 28 scored 143, which explains why I am single according to a posting above, I am too stupidly iquelligent My late wife was in every way my intellectual equal, and had more attuned emotional antennae than me, but she missed out on her education, and was mid-degree at her death
-------------------- the better it gets is better than the better it was
Posts: 12 | From: truro | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
I have been informed recently that really, really brainy guys are totally blind to come-ons, anyway
-------------------- “Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sine Nomine: .... It appears to me you took a positive and general statement about a good way to live one's life and turned it on its head to an intensively personal and negative one. Is this a Lutheran thing?
Sine, your kindness knows no bounds. Not to mention your charming avoidance of generalities.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: quote: Originally posted by Sine Nomine: .... It appears to me you took a positive and general statement about a good way to live one's life and turned it on its head to an intensively personal and negative one. Is this a Lutheran thing?
Sine, your kindness knows no bounds. Not to mention your charming avoidance of generalities.
Getting a mite personal, aren't we? Please stop it both of you.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
-------------------- Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake: quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've met qutie a few never married female PhDs and relatively few males.
What are the differences between married and never-married women PhDs ? I wonder if there are some psychological differences that might explain why some get hitched and some don't. The married ones I know are stable and happy, but one thing they have in common is that they have interests outside work and can handle non-academic types of people. Not all academics one comes across are like this.
I think you're right that being "only" an academic could put people off you (and this applies to either gender.) But the idea I was exploring was that maybe the reason so many apparently bright, attractive, cheerful female PhDs go "untaken" might be that they simply have a much smaller pool of potential partners to chose from (since so few less-educated men are wiling to consider them as possibilities, and there just aren't many male PhDs (or intellectual equivalents) to go around.)
I mean, you meet male department heads (PhD taken for granted, intelligence likely, though not guaranteed ) with wives who were lucky to graduate from high school. But when was the last time you met a female academic (or intellectual equivalent) with a husband who never did college?
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mertide
Shipmate
# 4500
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Posted
Isn't the size of that pool within their control, though? If highly educated women don't consider lesser educated men to be acceptable partners, and highly educated men do consider lesser educated women to be acceptable, then those women have a lot of competition for that small group of men. If those women as well as a high education level insist on physical attractiveness, social adeptness, and even openness to a particular religious outlook, they're looking at a very small pool indeed that are their targets, while those same men may have a potential mate pool tens or hundreds times bigger, and may themselves have certain "must haves" for a spouse that have nothing to do with the quality of the degree. It's not exactly God withholding marriage if the women withhold themselves from the vast majority of men who might be interested in them.
Posts: 382 | From: Brisbane | Registered: May 2003
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Er, couldn't it be partly to do with time and social circles. If you're an academic you're more likely to work with and hang out with other academics. The advantage for men, and I agree this is sexist, is if they get on with their launderette, they are probably more likely to ask her out, than the academic woman is going to ask out the sexy car mechanic.
My other half and I both have IQs of around 150 and were at the same college at uni. WHoever said women with IQs over 125 can't find men obviously hasn't been to freshers week!!!
-------------------- Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Thinking a bit further though when I had my gap year before uni I met a gorgeous safari guide in Africa. We had a romance and when I got home I set about working out how to save part of my student grant to go visit him in the vacation, only to get a letter saying he was breaking it off as he couldn't compete with Oxford graduates and he didn't want to hold me back. I was devastated!
However, of course, there is the theory that people end up with their more or less equals. Put 100 men and 100 women in a room and tell them to pair up people will go for the best they think they can get. An intelligent man might end up with a less intelligent woman, but her looks will no doubt make up for it. This sounds reductionist but its basic evolutionary theory. Subconsciously we go for what we think is the best genetic match we can get that will be complimentary to us.
(Of course my hubby being equally intelligent to me must also be as gorgeous as me! )
-------------------- Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Papio.: quote: Originally posted by Papio.: quote: Originally posted by LatePaul: quote: Originally posted by Papio.: I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.
How are you defining that? Just curious.
Able to know, without having to think too much, what emotions other are presenting and whether these seem genuine. Ability to know you feel. Politeness. Ability to leave alone. Ability to push someone if that is appropriate.
FWIW - I think I could improve on some of these.
Bearing my brother in mind, I know that Asperger's Syndrome, for example, effects these abilities.
But for those without AS etc...
It's funny you should say that because I was about to say that the person I've personally met who is the cleverest is not very emotionally literate. He's aware of it though as he once told me that his brother had AS and he suspected he might have a mild case of it himself.
So, not to split hairs, but I feel that whilst emotional literacy is undoubtedly a desirable trait in a partner it is not, IMO, a necessary part of intelligence per se.
(btw so long as I'm nit-picking I think you mean that AS affects those qualities. If it effected them then your brother and my friend would be more, not less, emotionally literate. )
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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RuthW
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/admin.gif) liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mertide: Isn't the size of that pool within their control, though? If highly educated women don't consider lesser educated men to be acceptable partners, and highly educated men do consider lesser educated women to be acceptable, then those women have a lot of competition for that small group of men. If those women as well as a high education level insist on physical attractiveness, social adeptness, and even openness to a particular religious outlook, they're looking at a very small pool indeed that are their targets, while those same men may have a potential mate pool tens or hundreds times bigger, and may themselves have certain "must haves" for a spouse that have nothing to do with the quality of the degree. It's not exactly God withholding marriage if the women withhold themselves from the vast majority of men who might be interested in them.
In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are. Crossing education off her list of desireable qualities in a mate will frequently not increase the size of the pool of potential mates for a well-educated woman; less well-educated men typically don't want her.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are.
This conversation has been nagging me for the lst 48 hours since Rat posted:
quote:
degree-educated men married to hairdressers, shop-assistants and the like.
so I set to thinking about couples I know well enough to have some idea of their education and I really don't know many who fit this description. In fact I can hardly think of any.
Starting with my own family my Mum had more education qualifications than my Dad (which would not have been hard as AFAIK he left school at 14 with none whatsoever). I & my brother married women with more exam passes than us (though since then I've managed to get a few more her but she kicked me out & married someone else with even fewer...) and my sister has more than her husband. One of my male cousins is married to a woman less educated than him, one to someone about the same, one to someone (much) more educated.
(None of this says anything about intelligence of course, but there is no real way to measure that)
Thinking about my close friends, I can't call to mind more than one or two where the man has significantly higher education than the woman, and rather more where it is the other way round.
Same goes for my colleagues here at work.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:
quote: Maybe you would have more sucess with women if you used that as your chat up line?
Let's drop this entire tangent shall we.
Callan Purgatory Host.
-------------------- How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jazzuk777
Shipmate
# 5720
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Posted
From my experience at junior and primary, the girls in my classes consistently performed better academically than the boys anyway......being normally 1st or 2nd male in the class, my scores still normally equated to somewhere around the middle of the female half of the class.....as to what would have happened in Secondary, I never got to see that, as I ended up going to an all-boys grammar school
So if women find it difficult to date/marry less intelligent men (or men find it difficult to date more intelligent women - the complementary hypothesis), then by rights only a 50% of us ever will, roughly the most most intelligent half of the male popluation, and the least intelligent of the female population!*
(*I know this is Purgatory not Heaven, but please don't take my theory too seriously!)
-------------------- You spit out mannah/ God sends quails - the 77s
Posts: 281 | From: ....an original idea by God. (c)1970 all rights reserved. | Registered: Apr 2004
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mertide
Shipmate
# 4500
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: QUOTE]In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are. Crossing education off her list of desireable qualities in a mate will frequently not increase the size of the pool of potential mates for a well-educated woman; less well-educated men typically don't want her.
My experience is more that highly educated women are far more likely to reject say a tradesman or someone with a lesser education, even a lesser standard degree, with a "just not my type" than the rejection going the other way. If you add a tendency to look for a mate later in life, when the available pool is smaller, I suspect some women are unconsciously setting themselves up to have great difficulty in finding a partner.
I wonder if rather than a woman's education and intelligence being a turn off for men, what is actually the turn off is the intellectual snobbery that can be associated. Most people don't find being told directly or indirectly that they're just not quite good enough for consideration an attractive feature. Perhaps the problem isn't that no-one wants a highly educated woman in her late 30's, but that no-one in the vanishly small group of targets in her group of contacts who meet her criteria does.
Posts: 382 | From: Brisbane | Registered: May 2003
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Emma Louise
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/3571.jpg) Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!! (good education and iq)
Im not too worried to be honest. If im still single in a few years time I see no shame in online dating etc....
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
As a somewhat irreverent and definitely irrelevant tangent, can I just mention that when I first saw this thread I read the title as "God witholding massage"?
-------------------- Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Emma.: hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!! (good education and iq)
All you have to do is not look down your nose at plumbers and taxi drivers...
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Joan_of_Quark
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/9887.jpg) Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ken: quote: Originally posted by Emma.: hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!! (good education and iq)
All you have to do is not look down your nose at plumbers and taxi drivers...
I can see the adverts now..."Black cab drivers - we always know the quickest way!" -- but would they stop talking once they got there?! Could bring a whole new meaning to the inevitable phrase, "Do you know who I had in the back of the cab last week?"
-------------------- "I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!" further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/6645.jpg) Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mertide: My experience is more that highly educated women are far more likely to reject say a tradesman or someone with a lesser education, even a lesser standard degree, with a "just not my type" than the rejection going the other way.
Not IME. There does tend to be a communication breakdown, though, when one person is not educated and doesn't see education as having value and the other person has more or less dedicated their lives to education.
I used to think that most people (like me) wanted a partner in the same intelligence bracket (which, as has been pointed out, doesn't necessarily correspond to level of education). But some of my male friends have convined me that this isn't true - they want their partners to be less intelligent than they are because it makes the relationship less complicated (ok, I'm never sure how serious they are about this, as their longer relationships are usually with intelligent women, but I suspect there may be something hidden in the joking).
I think it's harder on men to be married to someone with more education than it is on women because of cultural expectations. Most people's default assumption is still that the man's career is more important than the woman's (because, you know, he earns more) and reversing that can be a challenge.
I have two good (female) friends who have phd's and are married to men less educated than they are who do manual labor. Socially, things can get very awkward. I tend to think a lot of the situations are funny, but I also think it takes an extremely secure man to be able to deal with it. I see a certain amount of the same social problems in couples where the man has a lot more education, but not nearly to the same extent.
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/admin.gif) liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by saysay: I also think it takes an extremely secure man to be able to deal with it.
Exactly. The one relationship I had with a man who didn't have a college degree eventually foundered, in part because of his perception that I looked down on him for not finishing college. This was really his own feelings of failure and inadequacy projected onto me, but it didn't matter; sometimes I made him feel bad about himself just by being who I am.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mertide
Shipmate
# 4500
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Posted
Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?
Posts: 382 | From: Brisbane | Registered: May 2003
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Joan_of_Quark
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/9887.jpg) Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mertide: ...Take on "fixer-uppers"?
If I understand "fixer-uppers" correctly, that's an analogy to buying a scruffy house and renovating it, right? The trouble with that is that human "houses" are going to have feelings. Suppose I say to some hypothetical new partner, "John, if only you shaved off that bird's nest of a beard, your real personality would shine through so much better" etc. I've had experience of control freaks in relationships, and they started with very sensible suggestions for how to make my life better. Only once they had me lulled into thinking they had my interests at heart did they start on the changes that were to make me a better trophy wife FOR THEM, and start demanding rather than suggesting. But I'd be very wary of someone whose agenda included a lot of changes to me, and guess others would if I were to do this to them. Maybe I am just not subtle enough at all that stuff about "power behind the throne", "let the man THINK he thought of the great idea all by himself" etc. - but then I am rubbish at telling the difference between general banter and real flirting so will probably not be in need of these "skills" any time soon!
-------------------- "I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!" further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
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Posted
One way of looking at the issue is of seeing certain qualifications as part of a specific career path. e.g. some avenues of work require a PhD, but then, people who train to be architects or doctors or engineers train for roughly the same length of time as it takes to get from first degree to PhD. (There's a difference between someone who does a PhD in order to work in particular industry, or in a university, and someone who does it as a career break or a hobby.) That's restricting things to people with university education, but to me it makes things clearer. A PhD does not prove someone is 'more intelligent' than others who have done academic study for less time. It proves that they have specialised in one narrow area for a while and written a book of up to 100, 000 words long.
-------------------- If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/6855.jpg) What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mertide: Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate. It shouldn't be surprising if they're alone because career or intellectual pursuits take precedence over fulfilment in a relationship. It takes work to find that special someone and it's easier to write off failure as an act of God or lack of available, qualified candidates. As I mentioned earlier, aggressive action helps if finding a compatible partner is important. Archaic social convention shouldn't restrict the modern woman from taking the traditional male role in initiating contact.
Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
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Emma Louise
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/3571.jpg) Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
what do you suggest then?
are you saying women are just sensitive creatures and you find that hard to deal with? or that theyre all screwed up and need therapy? Or if they have suffered abuse theyre not good potential mates?
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/6855.jpg) What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
My "suggestion" is in the first line of my response above. I'm not "saying" anything like you are extrapolating, just commenting from my experience.
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gort: They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.
Just for clarification. I know what an intelligent woman is. What's an "intelligent" woman? And is there some reason why 'more important personal issues' are more wrong for her, than they would be for anyone else, say, a man or a married woman?
A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?
quote: It shouldn't be surprising if they're alone because career or intellectual pursuits take precedence over fulfilment in a relationship.
So while waiting, or aggressively searching for Mr Right, women should forget about the bills, the rent, the need to earn a decent wage in order to live a reasonable life? And, further, they should be willing to sacrifice 'intellectual pursuits' just in case they may be perceived as taking precedence over a bloke?
I know it's a tedious feminist thing to say, but I wonder how many men deliberately play down career, and satisfaction from enjoyable pursuits in case it rookies their marriage chances? Most men I know would consider a decent career something as a good thing in terms of appearing to be a decent prospect for marriage. But it doesn't work the other way?
I suspect most men have a perfectly fair and reasonable expectation that they can have satisfying work, should they need it, mental stimulation and a partner should they wish it. And I'm disappointed that anyone should feel that oughtn't to apply for both sexes.
quote: Archaic social convention shouldn't restrict the modern woman from taking the traditional male role in initiating contact.
Now I'm confused. Initially, you were advocating women to sacrifice intellectual pursuits and a decent career so they could pursue men for marriage. A truly 'archaic social convention' if ever there was one. Now you're saying 'archaic social convention shouldn't restrict... woman'. Which is it?
quote: Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.
I can certainly understand a woman who has been a victim of abuse being wary of future relationships, or caught in a spiral of harmful relationships. I'm wondering how the academic, career and "intellectual" profile of a woman should necessarily be connected with that. (And again "intellectual" in quotes. Are women only "intellectual", and never intellectual? What qualifies a woman as intellectual, in your eyes, rather than "intellectual"?)
Is it really so unusual for women to have careers, intellect and academic aptitude but that we have to explain it by suggesting it's probably a result of their being damaged, compensating delusionists?
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mertide: Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?
Well, I "expanded the age range" by marrying about 20 years above myself, and also the "culture range" by marrying an Asian. But I don't think all cultures have the same issues as Western ones with regards to education and romance. At least, my husband feels no need to hide the fact that his wife is highly educated (of course, he has nearly as much himself) and in fact others in the community tend to regard me as a "trophy wife" (shows what THEY know) .
To be sure, there is a strong tendency there as well to marry equally in as many respects as possible, and I HAVE met Asian men who were vastly insecure and took out their feelings on their somewhat more educated wives. The difference is maybe that the community condemns him for it. She is not the oddity; he is.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/6855.jpg) What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Anselmina wrote: quote: Just for clarification. I know what an intelligent woman is. What's an "intelligent" woman? And is there some reason why 'more important personal issues' are more wrong for her, than they would be for anyone else, say, a man or a married woman?
First, I profess to be a liberated male with respect to gender issues over intelligence, emotion and physical issues. I refuse to acknowledge any significant differences between the sexes on those three subjects (except for basic physical procreational roles) and if confronted with scientific evidence to the contrary, I will ignore that evidence on moral principles, especially when it attempts to define my personal interaction with fellow humans. Please, let's not get our feminist dander up, this is the wrong place and I'm the wrong target.
My quotes were only meant as acknowledgment that the word "intelligent" is a slippery one as has been noted elsewhere on this thread. Nothing more. I don't understand how you assume that I think 'more important personal issues' are wrong for her and not for a man or married woman. I was simply observing that if an issue is more important than finding a mate, then that may be a factor in subsequent failure in finding one. There's nothing "dishonest" about having other priorities, unless a person is fooling themselves into thinking those other priorities are not more important. I'm not making value judgements here. quote: So while waiting, or aggressively searching for Mr Right, women should forget about the bills, the rent, the need to earn a decent wage in order to live a reasonable life? And, further, they should be willing to sacrifice 'intellectual pursuits' just in case they may be perceived as taking precedence over a bloke?
Did I say anything about sacrificing to find Mr. Right? No. There's no reason to assume that women can't multi-task any better or worse than men. If finding a partner is a priority, then make it so. If it's not, then don't expect Mr. Right to drop out of the sky any faster than your job promotion or Uni degree. quote: I can certainly understand a woman who has been a victim of abuse being wary of future relationships, or caught in a spiral of harmful relationships. I'm wondering how the academic, career and "intellectual" profile of a woman should necessarily be connected with that.
It isn't necessarily connected with that. My experience has been that a "high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims" (this isn't meant to imply that men don't do the same) ignore the effects of childhood abuse on their adult social lives by focusing on academic, career or intellectual pursuits to enhance missing self-esteem or as possible compensation for the difficulty of enjoying close personal relationships with the opposite sex. Again, there is no value judgement here, it's simply an observation from my experience. God knows I'm not educated, intelligent or objective enough to propose a solution for the many problems that confront humans seeking mates. I am bright enough, however, to notice certain patterns in my personal experiences. [ 17. September 2005, 23:47: Message edited by: Gort ]
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/6645.jpg) Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: quote: Originally posted by Gort: They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.
A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?
I read this differently. I don't think Gort was saying that it's dishonest to prioritize those things over finding a mate, but that women should admit that that's what they're doing.
I broke of my last LTR when I was 22, right before my life fell apart. For years I didn't even bother looking for a relationship, because I knew that I didn't have any time or energy to devote to one. When I finally got things back together, I discovered that the pool of potential mates in my age range had shrunk considerabley, as many people had either gotten married or were already involved in LTRs.
That's just the way the cookie crumbled. But it would be dishonest for me to complain that there are no decent men who like intelligent women - the fact that almost all my female friends are either married or in the planning stages indicates otherwise. But my priorities during my twenties were very different from their priorities.
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: I suspect most men have a perfectly fair and reasonable expectation that they can have satisfying work, should they need it, mental stimulation and a partner should they wish it. And I'm disappointed that anyone should feel that oughtn't to apply for both sexes.
I'm not sure anyone was advocating for a double standard. But all the men that I know konw that if they devote all of their time and energy to their career and none to dating or finding a mate, they have to find their career very satisfying, because there's a good chance they'll never find a mate.
-------------------- "It's been a long day without you, my friend I'll tell you all about it when I see you again" "'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gort:
It takes work to find that special someone and it's easier to write off failure as an act of God or lack of available, qualified candidates. As I mentioned earlier, aggressive action helps if finding a compatible partner is important.
That's true.
quote: Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.
I definetely feel I've seen this in some people, and was just discussing this sort of thing with a (female) friend last night in fact. Sometimes the problems get expressed in the work too, which can complicate things even further. It takes real clear-sightedness to be able to handle the connection between both spheres. IME there are some women like this who don't necessarily help because they pass on a cynical view of men into the academic culture (for example), and this then influences younger women who are just starting off, but who have problems of their own that need dealing with. So it becoms a vicious circle. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
-------------------- If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by saysay: quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: quote: Originally posted by Gort: They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.
A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?
I read this differently. I don't think Gort was saying that it's dishonest to prioritize those things over finding a mate, but that women should admit that that's what they're doing.
Which is to say that, of course, women are not admitting that's what they're doing. I'm wondering why the assumption that women aren't being honest with themselves, as in this: 'They can start with being honest with themselves.'
Gort, thanks for your reply, much of which I agree with to an extent. I still don't see why a woman should prioritize marriage in a way a man doesn't have to, apparently, despite the fact she may not be in a position to do that. Your message still seems to assume that there is a lot of free and easy choice in how some people live their lives, and that certain 'priorities' can be easily subjugated in favour of others. In which case it might be reasonable to suggest that if only a woman could pick and choose the 'marriage' priority her singleness problem would be solved.
But it's no easier for a woman to cooly select the 'I'm hunting for a man' option in the game of life than the 'I'm trying to earn a living' or 'I'm trying to be a good daughter and take care of my invalid parents' options.
And it really does sound as if you're saying that women who wish to be married ought not to give a priority to the same extent that men do to 'intellectual pursuits'. Otherwise they've only got themselves to blame! I know what you're saying is a bit more complex than this, but so is living life as it comes and doing what needs to be done regardless of what one might wish to do.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Emma Louise
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/3571.jpg) Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
ok - so if a single woman was going to "prioritize" marriage - er, what would she do then?! Im puzzled.....
(im not desperate to jump into it again - just curious as to the asnwer!)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/6855.jpg) What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: [...] But it's no easier for a woman to cooly select the 'I'm hunting for a man' option in the game of life than the 'I'm trying to earn a living' or 'I'm trying to be a good daughter and take care of my invalid parents' options.
And it really does sound as if you're saying that women who wish to be married ought not to give a priority to the same extent that men do to 'intellectual pursuits'. Otherwise they've only got themselves to blame! I know what you're saying is a bit more complex than this, but so is living life as it comes and doing what needs to be done regardless of what one might wish to do.
You're focusing on a 'men vs. women' debate that wasn't my intention. I apologize for implying that. I admitted my view of the problems were biased because I can't experience the same effect in my relations with men. Maybe it's expressed in the common 'control freak' attitude, I dunno. I'm a highschool graduate, speculating on psychological stuff, using a limited vocabulary.
There is no "blame" in the sense that someone is "guilty" for not accomplishing what they desire. I recognize there are plenty of complex issues that demand our attention daily. However, I try to the best of my ability to accept responsibility for using everything in my power to accomplish those things that I firmly desire. When I set myself to a task, failure is not an option. I've discovered that when you are completely convinced that your goal is achievable (in practice it means being convinced it's already accomplished... visualization, etc.) then things tend to arrange and conform themselves to your expectation. I'll just shutup about this. It's beginning to sound like an amateur self-help treatise. quote: Originally posted by Emma.: ok - so if a single woman was going to "prioritize" marriage - er, what would she do then?! Im puzzled.....
(im not desperate to jump into it again - just curious as to the asnwer!)
Keep it upper most in your thoughts. Make yourself available. Seek out groups of singles. Dress up. Flirt. Be friendly, outgoing, fun... pinch an arse once in awhile. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Papio
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/4201.jpg) Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LatePaul: So, not to split hairs, but I feel that whilst emotional literacy is undoubtedly a desirable trait in a partner it is not, IMO, a necessary part of intelligence per se.
(btw so long as I'm nit-picking I think you mean that AS affects those qualities. If it effected them then your brother and my friend would be more, not less, emotionally literate. )
Yes, I kind of realise that I was subsuming things into the catergory of intelligence that were not strictly the same thing. I certainly would not want to claim my brother was dim. He isn't...
And, yes, I do tend to confuse "affect" and "effect".
LMM - I hadn't realised until I re-read this thread a minute ago just how bitchy my reply to you must have sounded and probably, in fact, was. FWIW, I enjoyed meeting you at the 2004 (?) Artists meet and I enjoy chatting to you in the cafe. I apologise for the horrible comment.
-------------------- Infinite Penguins. My "Readit, Swapit" page My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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EnglishRose
Shipmate
# 4808
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gort: However, I try to the best of my ability to accept responsibility for using everything in my power to accomplish those things that I firmly desire.
Ultimately I accept responsibility for the fact that I'm single. Yes, it is very difficult to meet potential dates but on the rare occasion that I am not exactly the ideal date However, going back to the OP, that doesn't stop me from getting really, really cross with God sometimes. He knows exactly why I find it so hard to trust people and why I run away if there's any chance that I'm going to get hurt. I struggle to understand why God leaves me to battle my problems on my own. I used to pray that God would help me find a situation where I would meet someone special. Now that I've realised that a relationship/marriage is highly improbable I ask Him to give me strength to accept the fact that I'm single. So far He doesn't seem to listen to that request either! I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that God is deaf when it comes to human relationships.
Posts: 544 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2003
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