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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Validity of baptism from other churches?
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
At the risk of straying into Dead Horse territory, the Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the Church.

Gee, Trisagion. Father Gregory says his church is the Church and not a denomination. Hm.
And so do the churches of Christ, yes?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
SO people don't have to profess their faith in Christ and get baptized in order to be saved? If that's so, fair enough.

No. According to you they don't even have to do the former though, as they can be baptised when they are incapable of professing, so I hope you aren't going to try and take the moral highground.

quote:
In other words, you're saying that God's love and grace are conditional.
I am saying I believe in repentance unto salvation. I don't think that's particularly controversial.
quote:

Basically my problem with all this is my problem with Arminianism generally. If you're willing to save yourself, God is happy to provide all the equipment.

And my problem with what you're saying is my problem with "Catholicism" generally. Jump through every hoop the church sets (or better still, get your parents to do it for you) and you might be all right.

[ 24. March 2005, 15:39: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Doesn't that rather put you at the centre of the ecclesial universe?

So I might be a reincarnation of Mary?
[Biased]

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Tradition is not considered a valid arguement by most of us who practice BB.

quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
History is important to many who do BB.

Do you think of tradition as something distinct from history then?

Not really. History is a subjective understanding of events; tradition is a subjective practice, the study of which could be seen to be a part of studying history. Both inform current practice, but neither defines it.

In my faith group, there are Anabaptists who go back to the 1500's for succour as to how things should be done; Mennon Simons writings are still studied by a few. But, if the scriptures are seen to conflict, the scriptures win out.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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All the above posts show one reason why The Salvation Army - part of The Church - ceased baptising babies. None of you can agree on what baptism means.

It is far simpler to say that we are saved by grace through faith - that it is a transaction of the heart by the Holy Spirit - and that there is not a ritual or ceremony on this earth that can convey saving or sanctifying grace.

I cannot believe that our Lord came to bring such a difficult and controversial means of salvation. Faith is such a simple thing and God welcomes all those into is family who simply trust him to save them.

No ceremonies or sacraments. No priests or ecclesiastical hoops to jump through.

Just a childlike and grateful faith in the cross and in the resurrection.

[ 24. March 2005, 16:37: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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Ummm...you did see how some of us are doing what's called Believer's Baptism, right?

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No priests or ecclesiastical hoops to jump through.

I certainly don't recommend that anyone jump through a priest. You'd probably annoy him.

Anyway, as usual Mudfrog knows better than everyone else. How nice.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Trisagion
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# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Gee, Trisagion. Father Gregory says his church is the Church and not a denomination. Hm.

Your point being what, exactly?

There seem to be four possibilities here
  • he's right;
  • I'm right;
  • we're both right;or
  • we're both wrong.

He believes the first, I the second. The third seems to be a logical nonsense and the fourth what you imply. I still don't see the point of your remark. [Confused]

[ 24. March 2005, 17:39: Message edited by: Trisagion ]

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Trisagion:

It was meant to be gently humorous and as such has very little point. I do not dispute that both the Eastern and Western churches believe themselves to be The Church, and are therefore not to their minds, denominations.

However, you can't deny surely that there are those of us who, though belonging to a schismatic step-child of The Church (whichever one it is), do believe ourselves to be part of the Church Universal, or whatever group is formed from all trinitarian Christians. And that when we say "the Church", that's what many of us are talking about, not Holy Mother Rome.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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TANGENT//Trisagion:
quote:
The third seems to be a logical nonsense
Why? (Isn't it what would be retrospectively be being said to be the case if East and West were ever reconciled?)

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
TANGENT//Trisagion:
quote:
The third seems to be a logical nonsense
Why? (Isn't it what would be retrospectively be being said to be the case if East and West were ever reconciled?)
Perhaps, but as things stand, the statements might be seen as mutually exclusive.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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So they aren't both 'it' now, but it's possible that at some point in the future it will turn out to be the case that, notwithstanding that, they both actually were 'it' now... Looking back... [Biased]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No priests or ecclesiastical hoops to jump through.

I certainly don't recommend that anyone jump through a priest. You'd probably annoy him.

Anyway, as usual Mudfrog knows better than everyone else. How nice.

At least I haven't said that my church isn't a denomination, it is THE church!
That strongly suggests that the other denominations are not the Church at all.

I haven't said that anyone has got it wrong, nor that I know better. All I am saying is that there is a simpler way than the complicated twists and turns of baptismal theology and practice.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I haven't said that anyone has got it wrong, nor that I know better.

Perhaps not on this thread.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
At least I haven't said that my church isn't a denomination, it is THE church!
That strongly suggests that the other denominations are not the Church at all.

Correct.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
At least I haven't said that my church isn't a denomination, it is THE church!
That strongly suggests that the other denominations are not the Church at all.

Correct.
So when we baptise people we are not welcoming them into the Church? Tsk, tsk,... the OP doesn't mean anything then at all... presumably it's talking about "denominations" not The Real Church. [Roll Eyes]

You're not the Pope IRL are you, Trisagion? He has points of view similar to yours. [Biased]

--------------------
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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
All the above posts show one reason why The Salvation Army - part of The Church - ceased baptising babies. None of you can agree on what baptism means.

It is far simpler to say that we are saved by grace through faith - that it is a transaction of the heart by the Holy Spirit - and that there is not a ritual or ceremony on this earth that can convey saving or sanctifying grace.

I cannot believe that our Lord came to bring such a difficult and controversial means of salvation. Faith is such a simple thing and God welcomes all those into is family who simply trust him to save them.

No ceremonies or sacraments. No priests or ecclesiastical hoops to jump through.

Just a childlike and grateful faith in the cross and in the resurrection.

So when Jesus told the disciples to go into the world, baptising all nations, this actually meant....

John

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...All I am saying is that there is a simpler way than the complicated twists and turns of baptismal theology and practice.

Oh, as I know you don't do infant baptism, I think the Salvation Army's take on this all would be seen by some on this site to be a turn and twist of baptismal theology.

Look in the mirror with other people' eyes.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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I think it would be a pity if this thread were derailed between the Scylla of Trisagion's paradoxical ecclesiological solipsism and teh Charybdis of Mudfrog's ecclesiological nihilism, entertainingly feisty though the expression of both may be. The truth is that that's not where any of us are, though the confusion of truth with assertion is certainly diverting. Thank you guys! You made us smile!

Anyhoo....

For the rest of us - we have this sacrament, and we wonder what it means. And we wonder how to apply it. And we do our theologising about the way we apply it. Today is Good Friday. That could be a good time to take a fresh grasp.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
the Scylla of Trisagion's paradoxical ecclesiological solipsism

Beautifully constructed but I fail to see the solipsism. I stated the ecclesiological position of the Catholic Church. Stated it rather baldly, I'll admit, but it is into that one Church we are all baptised, no matter how imperfect our communion with it.


quote:
For the rest of us - we have this sacrament,
But there's the rub, Psyduck. It has become as plain as a pikestaff that even such an apparently uncontentious statement, when it is unpacked, becomes controversial. There are those who do have a sacramental understanding of Baptism and there are those who don't. Unless you void the word "sacrament" of any meaning, there isn't really any common ground.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

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quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:

Anyhoo....

For the rest of us - we have this sacrament, and we wonder what it means. And we wonder how to apply it. And we do our theologising about the way we apply it. Today is Good Friday. That could be a good time to take a fresh grasp.

I've read but not contributed to all this because, to be honest, I have much uncertainty about baptism.

The public witness, and the declaration of faith aspect of Baptism, which is such an important part of my Baptist tradition, seems not to fit well with the understanding of baptism as an expression of God's prevenient grace. I remember being part of a group writing a formal statement about baptism. We said that in baptism believers take their stand in solidarity with Christ, but also that in baptism the initiative is God's. But there's much in Christianity that holds different truths in tense proximity.

One of the things I haven't seen discussed here is the practice of indiscriminate baptism. This seems to be more than sloppy practice. Many think it is right to baptise at every request. This separates baptism from any tangible expression of the Church and makes it a general statement of the love of God towards all.

I feel helpless and depressed that the means of entry to the Church should divide us so sharply and uncharitably. My natural instinct is to say that the sacrament of baptism is rightly beyond our understanding, and does not really belong to the Church. We perform it as instructed, and should do so with humility.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
The public witness, and the declaration of faith aspect of Baptism, which is such an important part of my Baptist tradition, seems not to fit well with the understanding of baptism as an expression of God's prevenient grace. I remember being part of a group writing a formal statement about baptism. We said that in baptism believers take their stand in solidarity with Christ, but also that in baptism the initiative is God's. But there's much in Christianity that holds different truths in tense proximity.

This is very close to a Quaker understanding of God's role in baptism and our need to keep ourselves away from interfering with God's work by inserting human conditions into the process.


quote:
I feel helpless and depressed that the means of entry to the Church should divide us so sharply and uncharitably. My natural instinct is to say that the sacrament of baptism is rightly beyond our understanding, and does not really belong to the Church. We perform it as instructed, and should do so with humility.
You've expressed a dilemma quite well here, hatless. [Overused]

sabine

[ 25. March 2005, 17:10: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Advocatus Diaboli
Ship's cannon
# 5172

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Loathed as I am to refer back to the OP, I have been asked by the friend in question to point out that the situation in the church in Japan was merely a catalyst, not a motivation, for baptism. She and I both know she has been thinking about it for some time, and would not take it so lightly - but I had to set the record straight, so there goes. My fault for being so clumsy!

Anyhoo, she was baptised on Tuesday (YAY!) having contented herself that she was 'blessed' rather than baptised as a child. Good news all round, I think. She was interested (if a little overwhelmed!) to read your comments. Or at least the first few hundred of them... <g>

And back to the action we go. I broke up from school yesterday, and my brain is in the process of shutting down, so you'll excuse me if I don't put on my theological hat and join you. <yawn> Now, where did I put that Saviour? Third allotment from the right, follow the path between the rosebeds...

[Acknowledged culpability]

[ 25. March 2005, 21:22: Message edited by: lazystudent ]

--------------------
Shipmate formerly known as lazystudent

The only way of catching a train, I have discovered, is to miss the train before. (G.K.C.)

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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This thread would have been much shorter if, when lazystudent posed the question, someone had suggested his friend contact the church in the location she grew up and check the baptismal register in the years that her parents think she may have been baptised.
[Angel]

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
This thread would have been much shorter if, when lazystudent posed the question, someone had suggested his friend contact the church in the location she grew up and check the baptismal register in the years that her parents think she may have been baptised.
[Angel]

I did in my first post on the thread where I said:
quote:
On the OP, could the situation wrt the infant baptism be cleared up by asking at the Church where she would have been baptised had she been (who should have a cradle role or the like).
However, we'd diverged from the specifics of the OP fairly quickly.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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lazystudent's friend made her decision and I genuinely hope and pray that she may have experienced great joy amd blessings and that the church in Japan welcomes her back with open arms.

[ 26. March 2005, 09:34: Message edited by: daisymay ]

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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

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I would hate for anyone to think they were redeemed simply because a man sprinkled water on them when they were a baby.

I believe that a major cause of nominality is the idea that people are Christians by virtue of religious actions performed by others (however well intentioned) or by an accident of birth which causes someone to be born in a 'Christian country'.

Christian faith is an intentioned, conscious and spiritual transaction between God and the heart of a man, woman or child. No ceremony, words, actions or any amount of water, can convey the grace or faith needed to be born into God's Kingdom.

Any activity performed after this faith event has occurred is incidental, and is a means of witness, not a means of grace.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Mudfrog:
quote:
I would hate for anyone to think they were redeemed simply because a man sprinkled water on them when they were a baby.
I honestly don't think anyone contributing to this thread believes that, Mudfrog. In all charity, if you are going to debate this with us, wherever we're coming from, it doesn't help to come up with a really quite grotesque parody of what we believe, stick that on us as our views, then dismiss it. I believe that Christ died for every infant I baptise. God may know different - but I have absolutely no licence to second-guess him. THat's why I infant-baptise.

quote:
I believe that a major cause of nominality is the idea that people are Christians by virtue of religious actions performed by others
If we are to take that seriously, Mudfrog, it means that the cross can have no saving significance for us. What is the cross, but a "religious action performed for us by another"? I'm not being facetious either. You can't avoid this by saying that you exempt God from what you said above. The whole Christian tradition is unanimous in co-ordinating the saving work of God with the obedience of the fully-human Jesus Christ in salvation.
quote:
Christian faith is an intentioned, conscious and spiritual transaction between God and the heart of a man, woman or child.
What of people who can't engage in such a transaction? What of infants (infans = "can't speak") or the learning-impaired, the mentally ill, those who've suffered emotional or physical abuse which vitiates every contact they've ever had with church or Christianity? Christian faith is a response to God's saving action which in many cases is not accurately measurable other than by God. I don't doubt that it's possible to know that you have faith - I do, at the moment (in fact I have done for the whole of my life except for six awful teenage weeks) - but I absolutely deny that I, or you, or anyone else, have the criteria on the basis of which to deny that anyone else has faith.

quote:
Any activity performed after this faith event has occurred is incidental, and is a means of witness, not a means of grace
SO faith can't be fed at communion, or by responding to the preaching of the word? There are, in faith, no new experiences of God? The Spirit does not work to sanctify us?

Mudfrog, I don't think you realise it, but what you're saying is that absolutely everything about the Christian faith is human until we get to heaven. A human response to contemporary human religious activity and God-talk, which involves believing that God-talk. You say that it's a spiritual transaction between God and the human heart, but I honestly can't see but that it's a matter of human beings responding in an approved way at one particular point to an absolutely static set of symbols. You assert that God is somehow part of that response, and that that makes it a "transaction" (which in itself is a strange word - transactions are what I do at the bank) but to be honest, is it really necessary to your represented theology (I can't believe it's what you really believe) that God should be there at that point either? I can't see what else is left if you can say
quote:
Any activity performed after this faith event has occurred is incidental, and is a means of witness, not a means of grace
Maybe this explains the sharpness of some of the exchanges in this thread - which I regret. But you seem to want to sweep away not only things that are part of the structure of other people's faith, but part of the structure of Biblical faith. Don't you see that there is something quite violent at the heart of such an approach? And I'd say, with all charity, something incoherent, inasmuch as I really don't belive that you want to be saying some of the things your theo-logic leads you to say?

Anyway, it's Easter Sunday, so every blessing.

--------------------
The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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