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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Orthodoxy - a total ignoramus asks ;
luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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ok, starting to get a less murky picture - working on it!!!


Fr Gregory, I meant to ask earlier...

quote:
the Assumption / Dormition of our Lady, the perpetual virginity of our Lady
-where's the Scriptural basis for assumption, it's always puzzled me? Am I right in thinking it means Mary's seen as ascending, like Enoch, Eliajh or a bit like Jesus did? Is Dormition the same thing (dorm... does that relate to sleep or something?)

-how does the perpetual virginity thing work when Mary had other children & anyway, was married?

thanks again for the answers so far - you're doing a good job of educating me!

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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Hi, luvanddaisies,

I know you asked Fr. Gregory -- I hope you'll forgive me if I take a stab at answering these!

quote:
quote:
the Assumption / Dormition of our Lady, the perpetual virginity of our Lady
-where's the Scriptural basis for assumption, it's always puzzled me? Am I right in thinking it means Mary's seen as ascending, like Enoch, Eliajh or a bit like Jesus did? Is Dormition the same thing (dorm... does that relate to sleep or something?)
Yes, dormition means falling-asleep, as in "falling asleep in the Lord," as in dying. Assumption means being assumed, or taken up, into heaven -- not under her own power (as our Lord did when he ascended), but by the power of God. We believe that, when Mary died, her Son didn't allow her to stay dead, but raised her up and took her with him to heaven.

There's no scriptural basis for the dormition or assumption of Mary -- we're not sola scripturists; there are things we believe that were not recorded in the Bible but were handed down to us through other means. This is one of them.

quote:
-how does the perpetual virginity thing work when Mary had other children & anyway, was married?
We believe that Joseph was an elderly widower when he married Mary, and that her other children, such as James, the brother of our Lord, were her stepchildren, the children of Joseph and his first wife.

Some of our beliefs regarding Mary are recorded in The Protoevangelium of James, which, while not Holy Scripture, we view as an important source of information about Mary.

--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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oh, right - that's nice and clear & simple - thanx Josephine!!!

is that the same as what the Roman Catholic church believe about assumption/dormition then?

(does anyone want to flatten me yet, I feel I look like a kid playing that game of seeing how many times you can ask "why" before your parents loose their temper - not trying to do that, honest, even though it's starting to sound like it [Hot and Hormonal] I just want to know, that's all)

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Is that the same as what the Roman Catholic church believe about assumption/dormition then?

Pretty close. Some RC's believe Mary never died but was assumed while still alive, but that is not the official teaching of the RCC. The biggest difference from my point of view is that for us this is a matter of pious belief but non-binding; for the RCC (as I understand it; I am open to correction on this) it is a dogma, i.e. something that must be believed to be a good RC in good standing with the church.

I would think that either way it's a fairly inoffensive belief --- presumably Moses and Enoch and definitely Elijah were assumed into heaven.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:

(does anyone want to flatten me yet, I feel I look like a kid playing that game of seeing how many times you can ask "why" before your parents loose their temper - not trying to do that, honest, even though it's starting to sound like it [Hot and Hormonal] I just want to know, that's all)

(Thanks for asking all the questions on my behalf!)
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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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apologies for yet another one...

ages ago in this thread Father Gregory posted
quote:
The overwhelming importance of Pascha (Easter) and belief in the resurrection in contradistinction to the western popular culture of Christmas, (barely registers culturally in Greece for example). This is reflected in the Orthodox understanding of salvation which has serious issues with the following western non-Orthodox interpretations:-
(a) Substitutionary Atonement
(b) The Filioque clause added to the Nicene Creed
(c) Forensic or Merit based understandings of divine human interaction.
(d) The cultus of the cross disjoined from the resurrection, (more an emphasis than an exclusion).

a) people have explained the Orthodox position on that - think I gettit, although it does continue to puzzle me somewhat.
b) I googled for "Filioque Clause" and it seems to be the Spirit proceeding from the Father & from the Son bit... why is this a problem? particularly in light of :
quote:

(John 15:26 RSV):
But when the Counsellor comes,
whom I shall send to you from the Father,
even the Spirit of truth,
who proceeds from the Father,
he will bear witness to me. :

(John 20:212f RSV):
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be unto you.
As the Father has sent me, even so send I you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them
and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

c) [Help] don't think I've got what this bit's about. Is the forensic/merit based bit like Paul's passage in Romans 9 where he's showing that predestination's "not who but how" and illustrsting Israel as being by faith & not by either genetics or actions? or am I at the wrong tree and barking fruitlessly?!
d) what do you mean - looking at Jesus's death without looking at the Resurrection? Surely to look at the crucifixion alone's only half the story, the crucifixion's for the forgiveness of sin, the Resurrection's the breaking of death's hold & the giving of a new life, through Christ, of wich He is the first of many other children of God, co-heirs with Him (like in Romans 5-8) do anglicans often seperate them or something?

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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ok, am (again) double-posting, but I came across a descendant of the thread we're on now and wanted to ask about
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
1) The use of leavened bread in the Eucharist is an important issue.
2) The propriety of a married priesthood is an important issue.

[numbering mine in above quote]

1) I thought you could use any kind of bread. past Communions I've been to hae included sliced white bread, garlic foccacia, fruit & nut loaf, bread roll, french baguette, funny wafer things. Is that unusual?

2) Do the Orthodox church have married priests? Why don't RC priests marry?

thanx again for the patient & interesting answers so far - it's great to find stuff out from you all.

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear [Axe murder] anddaisies

It is Orthodox to say that Jesus interceded with the Father that He (the Father) might SEND the Holy Spirit. Moreover it is Orthodox to assert that this agency of Christ extended to being the active route of the Spirit from the Father to the Church. However, the Johannine material does not allow us to go beyond this to suggest that the Father AND the Son are alternately or together the proceeding timeless Source of the Spirit. Only the Father is that. There have been huge long threads here before on the Filioque. I won't carry on into well worn territory!

The forensic bit of atonement is the legal discharge side of the substitutionary model. Orthodox insist that justification is organic and not merely legal in character. It refers to hunger and thirst for righteousness and the food and drink that God provides for this in Christ.

I omitted to mention in this list that we have a VERY different take on original sin as well. This has had huge threads and treatments here as well. Go here for more on that ...

Salvation in the Orthodox Church

These are all issues that hang together.

The separation of the cross and the resurrection to which I allude is present in SOME western traditions that only factor the cross into salvation. The resurrection then merely becomes a vindication of what the cross (or rather death of Christ) has achieved. In Orthodoxy, salvation does not exist without the resurrection. I don't think that you can say that with the same force in the west.

Finally ....

quote:
1) I thought you could use any kind of bread. past Communions I've been to have included sliced white bread, garlic foccacia, fruit & nut loaf, bread roll, french baguette, funny wafer things. Is that unusual?

2) Do the Orthodox church have married priests? Why don't RC priests marry?

Re 1: Yes it is unusual. Orthodox have varied historically between those who have rejected unleavened bread as a western innovation and those who have admitted it ... albeit reluctantly. In the west the synoptic gospel chronology of Last Supper = Pasover tends to be followed. In the east we tend to follow the Johannine chronology where this is not at all clear ... indeed it seems unsupportable, (see Joachim Jeremias: "The Eucharistic Words of Jesus.")

There is also the issue of the Eucharist not simply being a repetition of the Last Supper, (no women, no resurrection etc). Indeed the justification for the eastern practice of leavened bread is all down to the resurrection rather than the Passover ... it has to be "risen" .... which is also why we admix some hot water into the chalice .... living Blood.

Re (2): Yes, our parish priests are invariably married ... we do have a celibate clergy but by choice and vocation ... not mandate. Bishops have to be celibate or widowers though. It goes with the nature of the job.

You will have to ask a Roman Catholic witness why the Latin rite (for want of a better word) doesn't have a married clergy. I could not possibly explain it / justify it. [Biased]

[ 09. June 2004, 17:04: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Scarlet

Mellon Collie
# 1738

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
There is also the issue of the Eucharist not simply being a repetition of the Last Supper, (no women, no resurrection etc). Indeed the justification for the eastern practice of leavened bread is all down to the resurrection rather than the Passover ... it has to be "risen" .... which is also why we admix some hot water into the chalice .... living Blood.

Thank you, Father Gregory, I've learned something here...this is as good as catechumen classes!

--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer

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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

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luvanddaisies, all you ever wanted to know and more about Prosphora (the bread marked with a seal used in communion) is here.
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The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811

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quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
Hi, luvanddaisies,

I know you asked Fr. Gregory -- I hope you'll forgive me if I take a stab at answering these!

quote:
quote:
the Assumption / Dormition of our Lady, the perpetual virginity of our Lady
-where's the Scriptural basis for assumption, it's always puzzled me? Am I right in thinking it means Mary's seen as ascending, like Enoch, Eliajh or a bit like Jesus did? Is Dormition the same thing (dorm... does that relate to sleep or something?)
Yes, dormition means falling-asleep, as in "falling asleep in the Lord," as in dying. Assumption means being assumed, or taken up, into heaven -- not under her own power (as our Lord did when he ascended), but by the power of God. We believe that, when Mary died, her Son didn't allow her to stay dead, but raised her up and took her with him to heaven.

There's no scriptural basis for the dormition or assumption of Mary -- we're not sola scripturists; there are things we believe that were not recorded in the Bible but were handed down to us through other means. This is one of them.

quote:
-how does the perpetual virginity thing work when Mary had other children & anyway, was married?
We believe that Joseph was an elderly widower when he married Mary, and that her other children, such as James, the brother of our Lord, were her stepchildren, the children of Joseph and his first wife.

Some of our beliefs regarding Mary are recorded in The Protoevangelium of James, which, while not Holy Scripture, we view as an important source of information about Mary.

I have to be honest and say that its issues such as this which cause me real puzzlement about Orthdoxy. The Orthodox Church is clearly one which cares deeply about maintaining what they consider to be correct theology and in trying to understand the original teaching of the church on key issues.

Yet on the issue of the perpetual virginity of Mary, they acknowledge that scripture does not prima facie support their position and so, having acquired the belief thorugh Tradition, then go back and reinterpret scripture through that lens to say something which, as far I can see, it doesn't say.

I'm not trying to get diverted into a sola scriptura argument. That isn't really the issue. Its more that such an approach seems inconsistent with Orthodoxy's overall concern for establshing original church theology on issues.

This isn't an attempt to have a go at Orthodoxy. Its genuine puzzlement at what seems to me to be an inconsistent position.

--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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To explain that TUC it would ony require an explanation as to why John Calvin subscribed to the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos as well. I am sure that he was well aware of its provenance as an extra-biblical tradition.

Yet another example of how the "Reformed" is not necessarily the same as the "Reformers."

For further study on this ...

The Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of God

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811

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I had a look at the article. To be honest, I'm a little disturbed the way it talks about 'the heretics and simple blasphemers (who) refuse to acknowledge the Ever-virginity of the Mother of God' and 'the seedless birth of Christ can and could be denied only by those who deny the Gospel'. Is that really how Orthodoxy views those of us who, in genuinely seeking to honour God have reached a different conclusion?

--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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No. That web site is populated by people of extreme views ... but not typical of Orthodoxy. I should have got a health warning in first. Sorry!" Most of us Orthodox are warm and cuddly. [Axe murder]

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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original sin

thanks for the link again Fr Gregory... guess what, I've got more questions for you [Roll Eyes] ! - bet that's a HUGE surprise for all & sundry then [Biased] !

I'll start this query off by outlining my belief (and probably that of most Christians in my fleshie social circle) about the events in the Garden of Eden & its impact.
I have a horrible feeling this post could end up being a bit lo-o-0-0-O-O-0-0-o-ong though. Sorry [Hot and Hormonal]

  • God, through the Word (Jesus), and with the power of the Spirit, creates the world, in 7 days, the 7th of which He rested on. At that point, everything was "very good"

  • The people in Eden were Adam & Eve (or, as she's called in Hebrew, Havah [life])

  • Satan appealed to Eve's pride through distortions of what God had told them about the Tree-of-Life, turning it into lies. Partucularly of note is satan's telling her in Genesis 3:5b that she'd "be like God, knowing good & evil"

  • Eve gave in to pride & committed the first sin, in which she set herself up as God & in charge instead of doing as God had told her and leaving God in charge.

  • Eve gve some to Adam, who seems to have thought that was a good idea, and so set himself up as being above God too.

  • God speaks to them about it - angry, but still amazingly gracious in His promise of Jesus for their salvation in Gen 3:15. His punishment for sin (which means, as all sin ultimately is, setting oneself up above God) is death, Gen 3:19.

  • creation itself also has to experience death - shown by God even as He again acts with Fatherly care towards His sinful people and clothes them in animal skin in Gen3:21

another camera-angle of the sad events in Eden is in Romans 5 (I'm not trying to teach my granny to suck eggs here, honest, I just want to make it utterly clear what I'm asking & where I'm coming from & I thought this was the easiest way to illustrate it).

  • sin entered the world through one individual

  • sin before the Torah wasn't counted as such, but "death still ruled from Adam until Moses, even for those whose sinning wasn't like Adam's violation of a direct command" Rom 5:14. In his first-ness, Adam prefigured the One who was to come, a new humanity for a new creation

  • "But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man's offence, many died, then how much more has God's grace, that is, the gracious gift of one Man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many!" Rom 5:15. Paul goes on to say that although one sin brought death to all, One Redemption was a free gift coming after many offences and brought acquittal - not just being made not guilty (the death) but being made righteous & made Jesus's siblings (the Resurrection).

  • we know that everyone has sinned, except for Jesus "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23 & that "The wages of sin is death" - for anyone, whatever their situation as "all who have sinned outside the framework of Torah will die outside the framework of Torah; and all who have sinned within the framework of Torah will be judged by Torah" Rom 2:12

  • people are judged for their own sin (Ezekiel 33:10-20), although they all come from long unbroken families of sinners, and until they come to trust Jesus, are enslaved by their sinful natures " By God's grace, you, who once were slaves to sin, obeyed from your heart the pattern of teaching to which you were exposed; and after you had been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness" Rom 6:17-18

my main question is probably best phrased as which bits of the above (bit babbled & wibbly due to nice migrane that's only beginning to lift! [Frown] )glance over original sin aren't ones you would also subscribe to?


quote:
Adam and Eve, in their mortality are now subject to the corruption of death. Corruption here does not merely mean physical decay, it describes the fallout from the Fall as death spawns yet new evils. As St. Paul taught in the context of the resurrection as the remedy for sin and death, ("O death where is thy sting …?"), "the sting of death is sin." [1 Corinthians 15:55-56]
by that, is the same thing meant as Paul's statement in Romans 1:24-32, that God's given people over to sin because that is their inclination anyway?

quote:
" … the commingling of the sexes which, after the sin of our first parent, cannot take place without lust, transmits original sin to the offspring." [Aquinas: Comp. Theol., 224]

is he saying that sex, even within marriage is inherantly sinful? How's that possible. given that sex (used properly) is a gift from God? Are there really protestant churches that have that view?!

quote:
the Mother of God the New Eve.
how so? she's not sinless. only Jesus can be that, otherwise God could just have sent Mary to be crucified and she could have been the 'once for all' perfect, unblemished sacrifice. ANyway, we know that "noone is righteous, not even one" and "all have sinned"-rom 3:23 again. Also, she's not Jesus's spouse, as Eve was Adam's spouse. Don't get the 'new Eve' thing. Could you clarify that please? Do the RC church believe that too?


btw, can you tell I really like the letter to the Romans! [Smile]

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear [Axe murder] and daisies

God, through the Word (Jesus), and with the power of the Spirit, creates the world, in 7 days, the 7th of which He rested on. At that point, everything was "very good"

FrG: OK ... but recognise that many Christians (Orthodox included) do not take Genesis as straight history with a 6 day creation period.

The people in Eden were Adam & Eve (or, as she's called in Hebrew, Havah [life])

FrG: OK

Satan appealed to Eve's pride through distortions of what God had told them about the Tree-of-Life, turning it into lies. Partucularly of note is satan's telling her in Genesis 3:5b that she'd "be like God, knowing good & evil"

FrG: OK

Eve gave in to pride & committed the first sin, in which she set herself up as God & in charge instead of doing as God had told her and leaving God in charge.

FrG: But the apparent simplicity of "do this, don't do that" summarises something about us being as God intended ... a "work in progress" rather than simply not infringing rules.

Eve gave some to Adam, who seems to have thought that was a good idea, and so set himself up as being above God too.

FrG OK but a bit simplistic as to Adam's motivation.

God speaks to them about it - angry, but still amazingly gracious in His promise of Jesus for their salvation in Gen 3:15. His punishment for sin (which means, as all sin ultimately is, setting oneself up above God) is death, Gen 3:19.

FrG I am not saying you can't read "anger" out of the text or that "punishment" is ruled out but it was a blessing in a sense that death intervened. If it had not then our falleness would have become entrenched for all eternity. This is how the fathers interpreted the angel guarding Eden with the flaming sword. If we had returned and eaten from the Tree of Life then it would have been truly disastrous.

creation itself also has to experience death - shown by God even as He again acts with Fatherly care towards His sinful people and clothes them in animal skin in Gen3:21

FrG OK

another camera-angle of the sad events in Eden is in Romans 5 (I'm not trying to teach my granny to suck eggs here, honest, I just want to make it utterly clear what I'm asking & where I'm coming from & I thought this was the easiest way to illustrate it).


sin entered the world through one individual


sin before the Torah wasn't counted as such, but "death still ruled from Adam until Moses, even for those whose sinning wasn't like Adam's violation of a direct command" Rom 5:14. In his first-ness, Adam prefigured the One who was to come, a new humanity for a new creation

FrG OK


"But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man's offence, many died, then how much more has God's grace, that is, the gracious gift of one Man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many!" Rom 5:15. Paul goes on to say that although one sin brought death to all, One Redemption was a free gift coming after many offences and brought acquittal - not just being made not guilty (the death) but being made righteous & made Jesus's siblings (the Resurrection).

FrG OK ... but be careful with that word "acquittal." There's more to salvation than being "let off the hook" as you indeed say yourself in relation to righteousness / resurrection. We see that as salvation as well ... not simply response to salvation.


we know that everyone has sinned, except for Jesus "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23 & that "The wages of sin is death" - for anyone, whatever their situation as "all who have sinned outside the framework of Torah will die outside the framework of Torah; and all who have sinned within the framework of Torah will be judged by Torah" Rom 2:12

FrG OK


people are judged for their own sin (Ezekiel 33:10-20), although they all come from long unbroken families of sinners, and until they come to trust Jesus, are enslaved by their sinful natures " By God's grace, you, who once were slaves to sin, obeyed from your heart the pattern of teaching to which you were exposed; and after you had been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness" Rom 6:17-18

FrG OK (of course I wouldn't disagree with quopted Scripture! It's how we put it together though).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam and Eve, in their mortality are now subject to the corruption of death. Corruption here does not merely mean physical decay, it describes the fallout from the Fall as death spawns yet new evils. As St. Paul taught in the context of the resurrection as the remedy for sin and death, ("O death where is thy sting …?"), "the sting of death is sin." [1 Corinthians 15:55-56]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by that, is the same thing meant as Paul's statement in Romans 1:24-32, that God's given people over to sin because that is their inclination anyway?

FrG: Yes, but, additionaly death itself exacerbates sin (vicious circle). This is notwithstanding the fact that there is a mercy in death as well as a curse, (ante).


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" … the commingling of the sexes which, after the sin of our first parent, cannot take place without lust, transmits original sin to the offspring." [Aquinas: Comp. Theol., 224]

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is he saying that sex, even within marriage is inherantly sinful? How's that possible. given that sex (used properly) is a gift from God? Are there really protestant churches that have that view?!

FrG: I doubt it ... but it does represent an issue western Christianity as a whole has with sex.... at least until fairly recently.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the Mother of God the New Eve.
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how so? she's not sinless. only Jesus can be that, otherwise God could just have sent Mary to be crucified and she could have been the 'once for all' perfect, unblemished sacrifice. ANyway, we know that "noone is righteous, not even one" and "all have sinned"-rom 3:23 again. Also, she's not Jesus's spouse, as Eve was Adam's spouse. Don't get the 'new Eve' thing. Could you clarify that please? Do the RC church believe that too?

FrG: "New Eve" does not mean "sinless" anymore than "New Adam" means "sinless" although in Christ's case it does and He was. St. Irenaeus of Lyons started using "New Eve" for Mary because he simply wanted to contrast Eve's disobedience with Mary's obedience at the Annunciation. Historically the Church has interpreted Genesis 3:15 as referring to Mary in this context. We have the same belief as Rome in this regard.

I hope this clarifies.

[ 09. June 2004, 19:05: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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Alt Wally

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TUC, just to back up what Fr. Gregory said, I don’t think that site represents general Orthodox opinion at all and unfortunately often uses very inflammatory language directed at non-Orthodox and Orthodox alike. They have however compiled a pretty good site which has a number of useful articles so it’s easy to use it as a reference.

Regarding the perpetual virginity, I think it actually really passed the consensus of patristic opinion nearly universally and there are a number of quotes about it that can be attributed to fathers such as Athanasius, Jerome, Ambrose of Milan and Cyril of Alexandria. The doctrine itself was formally declared by the fifth ecumenical council and so should be upheld by any church that declares itself to be aligned in belief with the councils. There’s a good article here as well.

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J. J. Ramsey
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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally .:
TUC, just to back up what Fr. Gregory said, I don’t think that site represents general Orthodox opinion at all and unfortunately often uses very inflammatory language directed at non-Orthodox and Orthodox alike. They have however compiled a pretty good site which has a number of useful articles so it’s easy to use it as a reference.

Regarding the perpetual virginity, I think it actually really passed the consensus of patristic opinion nearly universally and there are a number of quotes about it that can be attributed to fathers such as Athanasius, Jerome, Ambrose of Milan and Cyril of Alexandria. The doctrine itself was formally declared by the fifth ecumenical council and so should be upheld by any church that declares itself to be aligned in belief with the councils. There’s a good article here as well.

The article to which you linked is the source of the quotes of 'the heretics and simple blasphemers (who) refuse to acknowledge the Ever-virginity of the Mother of God' and 'the seedless birth of Christ can and could be denied only by those who deny the Gospel' in the article from the OrthodoxInfo website.

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Father Gregory

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Yes, we know that. That's why I responded as I did.

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Is the forensic/merit based bit like Paul's passage in Romans 9 where he's showing that predestination's "not who but how" and illustrsting Israel as being by faith & not by either genetics or actions?

I don't think you got an answer to this one. Disclaimer: I'm not a member of OrthodoxPlot™ Ltd but I'm not a million miles from their camp in my atonementological position (thanks for the new word, Mousethief).

Anselm's theory of the Atonement (12th century) is based on the analogy of the system of honour/satisfaction in the Middle Ages, whereby an insult or trangression against a lord would have to be paid for, or satisfaction given. An atoning action could be sufficiently valued as to cover the transgressions of other people.

So, the theory goes, Christ's death on the cross is viewed as having abundant merit, under this system to not only achieve satisfaction for his own transgressions had there been any (obviously not!) but for all the other sins of the world. That covers the "merit" part, I hope.

As for the "forensic" - I think Fr G is referring to a modification of Anselm's satisfaction theory to apply the principles to a legal system of punishment rather than satisfaction, thus, penal substitionary atonement.

The OrthodoxPosition™ is that these atonement theories are incorrect, for various reasons that a proper theologian can go into, shortly after ripping this post to shreds, I expect.

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dyfrig
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Actually, "forensic justification" isn't just a variation on Anselm (although Anselm and subsequent scholasticism does inform quite a lot of Reformation method). Luther et al aren't just modifying Anselm, they're actually responding directly to the "courtroom language" of Scripture, most notably the Psalms.

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Father Gregory

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"court room language of Scripture."

Perhaps "court room language of SOME of the Scriptures."

Having said that we are talking of course from completely different juridical / social / cultural contexts.

The key question is:- "Is this the governing principle of sacrifice / redemption in the Scriptures?"

[ 10. June 2004, 12:34: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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dyfrig
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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:

Having said that we are talking of course from completely different juridical / social / cultural contexts.

All scriptural language is subject to this.

Including the terms "sacrifice" and "redemption".

[Razz]

And by the way, the judicial theme in the Psalms - the lex orandi of the people of Israel - is as strong as the themes of Exodus, Torah and Wisdom. It cannot be dismissed as some mere western protestant aberration.

[ 10. June 2004, 12:53: Message edited by: dyfrig ]

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Father Gregory

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I am not dismissing it and notwithstanding the different contexts of most if not all biblical ideas I still assert that the law court inadequately describes the resurrection. That's why it cannot be the governing principle of sacrifice. I do not for one minute deny the significance of the law court as a subordinate model. The reason? Love, not law.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Indeed, Dyfrig. Can we even understand the concept of a messiah in a non-juridical context? (Though the big surprise was that God's judgement turned out to be on sin and death itself, and not the wicked Romans).

Ian

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by IanB:
Indeed, Dyfrig. Can we even understand the concept of a messiah in a non-juridical context? (Though the big surprise was that God's judgement turned out to be on sin and death itself, and not the wicked Romans).

Or the wicked humans.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Agreed, Mousethief - I was just trying to think it through from a 1st-century Jewish angle.

Normal service will resume as soon as possible...

Ian

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dyfrig
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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Love, not law.

Most assuredly. But embedded deep in the Tradition kept by the Church in her Scriptures is the notion that God's love is demonstrating his justice. "We believe he shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead." God's salvation includes a concept expressed beautifully by a good old Anglo-Saxon word - no, not that Anglo-Saxon word! - rightwising.

Subordinate model most definitely, but on the ballkpark and deserving of a little more credit. As you know by now, I ain't no PSA-ist, but to act as if this category is not there is just plain silly.

Is "sacrifice" more adequate as a category in terms of the resurrection? Is anything - or anyone - adequate in the face fo resurrection?

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Father Gregory

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Dear Dyfrig

Yes, love demonstrates the justice, not justice the love.

I have not acted or spoken as if the "category" is "not there." I have said it cannot be the controlling centre.

I don't understand the last sentence.

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luvanddaisies

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thanks - so, Fr Gregory, we pretty much agree on most of the original sin stuff - cool [Big Grin] [Cool]

shifting tack slightly...
sorry to those of you who're Orthodox, are you beginning to feel like I'm trying to peer, poke and prod everything you do yet? .. sorry [Hot and Hormonal] but it's been really interesting to get from people how a totally unknown church works/believes, etc

?what do you do in your services?
==========================

  • does the OC have an equivilent to the anglican BCP?


  • what do you do about the sacraments?
    >Baptism - kids &/or adults? dunking or sprinkle?
    >Communion - ordained or lay? every service or some? I've got the leavened/risen bread thing (nice touch! [Biased] ) and I've got the adding hot water to the wine thing, for living blood (must be a surprise to those taking Communion in the OC for the first time* if they're not expecting it [Snigger] !). Can non-OC-members take Communion at an OC service?
    >Marriage - what's the bare bones of a 'typical' OC ceremony?


  • Funerals - as above!


  • do you use much music? would you agree with the bishop quoted here . How do Tavener's compositions, heavily influenced by his Orthodox beliefs, tie in with that sentiment, if at all?


  • What makes an icon an icon & not a picture, a scupture or a visual aid?


  • how would a typical service run in any (or all?!) of your churches, those of you who're of the Orthodox brand here?


*my flatmate's deep, spiritual reverie after the cup had been passed to her was once broken by her baptist friend who'd come along to All Souls with her digging her in the ribs and hissing "great wine, eh?" - they used cordial or Ribena in her church, so the wine made rather an impression, evidently!

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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Dear [Axe murder] anddaisies

does the OC have an equivilent to the anglican BCP?

FrG: Yes but there are many collections / versions. Ours (Patriarchate of Antioch) contains all the regular services of ordinary Sundays and weekdays with the pastoral offices, (funerals, etc). Others contain a smaller range but more feast day and variable material.

what do you do about the sacraments?
>Baptism - kids &/or adults?

FrG: We practice baptism at any age.

dunking or sprinkle?

FrG: Dunking. (The Serbs ... only ... pour rather than dunk).

>Communion - ordained or lay?

FrG: Priest or bishop only may serve. Deacon assists.

every service or some?

FrG: Not all Orthodox will receive at every Liturgy. Everyone should be properly prepared by fasting and prayer. Some may choose not to receive (temporarily) because of unresolved issues).

I've got the leavened/risen bread thing (nice touch! ) and I've got the adding hot water to the wine thing, for living blood (must be a surprise to those taking Communion in the OC for the first time* if they're not expecting it !). Can non-OC-members take Communion at an OC service?

FrG: No because partaking of communion for us is an organic unity thing.

>Marriage - what's the bare bones of a 'typical' OC ceremony?

FrG:
Part 1: Betrothal ... psalms, prayers, exchange of rings
Part 2: Crowning, procession, common cup

Funerals - as above!

FrG:
Psalms, readings, prayers, final kiss, usually in context of prayers at home, reception into Church and then afterwards burial (always ... we do not practice cremation).

do you use much music? would you agree with the bishop quoted here . How do Tavener's compositions, heavily influenced by his Orthodox beliefs, tie in with that sentiment, if at all?

FrG: All singing is 'a cappella." There is a HUGE amount of music but all the singing is unaccompanied to emphasise the word and the human voice. Orthodox influenced non-liturgical music also exists of course but it wouldn't be used in services.

What makes an icon an icon & not a picture, a scupture or a visual aid?

FrG: There are canons or rules of compodsition that make the icon a conveyor of spiritual realities / theological references. The icon writer (we see it as a "word") must also fast and pray during composition. It takes a long time to learn the skill for an existing talented artist.

how would a typical service run in any (or all?!) of your churches, those of you who're of the Orthodox brand here?

FrG: Could you please be a little more specific? We have a truly enormous variety of services!

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dyfrig
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My apologies for the obfuscationalist qualities of the final grammatical construction of my now penultimate utternace on this thread, Father G. [Biased]

You had stated, quite rightly, that the "legal" model (and note well all you PSA-ists., it is a civil model demanding righting of social relationships, not a criminal model demanding the punishing of the offender) was inadequate as an approach to the Resurrection.

My incomprehensibility was aimed at querying whether the categories of "sacrifice" and "redemption" or anything else or, indeed, anyone of us's ability to say anything, are not equally inadequate in the face of the resurrection,

I say this with particular reference to "sacrifice" as it is not entirely clear what the OT writers and the liturgy of Israel think sacrifice does. Yes, Leviticus 1-7 gives details of the how, but it is unclear as to what change this transaction brings upon the world.

There is one notion of the blood of the sacrifice acting as some sort of detergent in the holy place (though whether to keep the people or God clean is equally unclear). On the other hand maybe God was somehow appeased by the smell of burning meat.

As we don't really know what sacrifice really did or meant, it is as inadequate as the law court model.

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Father Gregory

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Dear Dyfrig

I understand. Thanks. I think that every model, image, metaphor, figuration, symbol, cypher, word thingy-ma-jig-whats-it is inadequate when it comes to representing the death and resurrection of Christ. This is why the Church has never dogmatised about it. The gospel's appeal is on two very basic and straightforward "gut" perceptions ...

(1) The God-Man loves me and everyone so much that he died for me and for all.
(2) Everyone, me included, can have an indwelling life that conquers death.

The rest is necessary but incomplete and sometimes ill-fitted fine tuning.

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luvanddaisies

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once again, a really clear & helpful answer!
[Overused] Fr Gregory!

could you clarify for me...

quote:
Everyone should be properly prepared by fasting and prayer. Some may choose not to receive (temporarily) because of unresolved issues).

what constitutes proper preperation? what kind of fasting etc. How is this said to the congregation (are they reminded before the actualy serviing/liturgy begins what they are expected to have done to prepare themselves for receiving COmmunion? etc..)

quote:
FrG:
Psalms, readings, prayers, final kiss, usually in context of prayers at home, reception into Church and then afterwards burial (always ... we do not practice cremation).

What do you mean by ""final kiss"? - surely not bestowing kiss upon the corpse?! [Eek!]
Why not cremation? Is that for theological or traditional reasons?


Is your music based on patterns / modes like Gregorian Chant? Is it a priest/congregation call & response? Do you have choirs lead or sing choral items, or is it always corporate? WHere can I find links to OC music, notated?

I suppose by asking about services, I was thinking of an ordinary sunday service - the usual week-by-week formula for no particular or specific occasion...

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
What do you mean by ""final kiss"? - surely not bestowing kiss upon the corpse?! [Eek!]

On the contrary. We do kiss the corpse (on the hand or forehead). It is, after all, the body of our loved one. Kinda freaky cold though.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I suppose by asking about services, I was thinking of an ordinary sunday service - the usual week-by-week formula for no particular or specific occasion...

The usual Sunday service is the divine liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. You can find links to the text here: click me.

Sometimes in a parish this will be preceded with the service of Matins or Morning Prayer; but in many traditions, Sunday Matins is done the evening before along with the Vespers of Saturday Evening, in which case the combined service is called an "all-night vigil" although the "all-night" is a bit of an exaggeration.

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom alternates between sung choral pieces (in many greek churches these are chanted by a cantor, but in the Russian tradition they are sung by the choir (and the congregation, although this varies and (sadly) I have been shushed for singing along with the choir at an Orthodox church before!)), and litanies which are led by the deacon if there is one, or the priest if there's no deacon. Even if there is a deacon the closing prayer of each litany is done by the priest.

The litanies have the response (sung by the choir and/or choir plus congregation) "Lord have mercy" and/or "Grant it, O Lord."

Being in the choir, the service goes by very fast. You're either paying attention to what you're singing presently, or looking forward to what comes next. In our parish, we have a variety of musical pieces to choose from for each sung bit of the service, and our choir director (who is also our Matushka, i.e. priest's wife) decides as the service progresses which variation to use for each bit of the service. So for example if there is a small choir or we're really out of tune on a particular morning, she will likely use the Byzantine variants, which are a simple melody over a one- or two-note drone (sung by the men and called an "ison"); if we're in good voice, she'll choose the more difficult pieces. And if we're very very good she'll let us sing the Trisagion Prayers according to the music written by Tchaikovsky, which is our favourite. [Big Grin] If there are a lot of altos on a given morning, we'll sing the Angelic Hymn using the music of the Georgian Wedding Hymn, in which the melody is carried by the altos, and which is feverishly pretty.

Of course the focal point of the Liturgy is the prayers of consecration said by the priest alone (NOT the deacon) -- much the same as in a RC or Anglican service, although of course the wording is going to be different.

That's all i can think of right now. Good questions!

[ 11. June 2004, 14:46: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

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Father Gregory

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Dear [Axe murder] anddaisies

As Mousethief says ... yes, we do kiss our reposed love ones at the end of the funeral rite. I was moved by how Nancy Reagan instinctively reached out to touch her husband's coffin. The instinct was right ... too bad the lid was screwed down. The kiss is a final physical gesture of love ... final in the obvious sense but indicating that love truly is stronger than death. Indeed Love raises the dead!

Just to fill in on what MT has not answered ...

quote:
what constitutes proper preperation? what kind of fasting etc. How is this said to the congregation (are they reminded before the actualy serviing/liturgy begins what they are expected to have done to prepare themselves for receiving Communion? etc..)

We fast for 12 hours beforehand ... practically this means midnight. Fasting is modified or suspended for the infirm, the elderly or preganat / nursing women. A person's spiritual father or mother is the guide on this. We do not legalistically follow "the book." If you're Orthodox this is simply something you know.

quote:
Is your music based on patterns / modes like Gregorian Chant?
Yes. There are 8 tones. There is also a Gregorian setting to the Liturgy which some use. We tend to use Byzantine Chant for the Liturgy, Obikhod Russian for Vespers and Matins. Occasionally we might get a bit ambitious and try Kievan or Znammeny chants ... rarely Arabic though ... it doesn't fit too well in the west unless the congregation is predominantly Arab by extraction.

We don't cremate because of honouring the body ... we refrain from actively destroying it ... see "The Final Kiss." Orthodox have a very high valuation of the material realm.

[ 11. June 2004, 14:55: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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mousethief

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Some of the most moving times I have ever experienced have been at Orthodox funerals. Especially poignant was the one for "Scotty", an elderly gentleman and husband to the oldest baba in our church (he was not "cradle" Orthodox; she was). A dearly beloved man by all the congo.

He was buried in a very simple wooden casket which our deacon had made. After the Last Kiss, the lid was nailed on by the subdeacon, while the widow wailed. It was very moving. I'm getting a little misty just typing about it.

At the graveside it is traditional (at least in our parish) for each visitor to toss onto the casket (which has been lowered into the grave) a flower and a handful of dirt. I don't know if this is traditional or not, but at Scotty's graveside all the men in his family wore dark glasses (they don't normally do so).

Being in the choir, I get to go to all the weddings and funerals. (I realized that sounds wrong -- everybody who wants to "gets" to go -- but I am needed for singing, being the only full-time tenor in the choir at the moment.)

[ 11. June 2004, 15:07: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

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Father Gregory

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Thank you Mousethief. [Angel] At this point some readers might want to check out the thread on feelings.

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luvanddaisies

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# 5761

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
What do you mean by ""final kiss"? - surely not bestowing kiss upon the corpse?! [Eek!]

On the contrary. We do kiss the corpse (on the hand or forehead). It is, after all, the body of our loved one. Kinda freaky cold though.
being an alien practise to me, I find that a bit creepy to think about! I find myself a bit weirded out by people processing past a coffin (as in Regan's recent 'lying in state') since the pseron's dead - it's just a corpse, inert flesh & bones. The person doesn't know they're having posthumous visitors! I believe some RCs have the body in their house for a period... would that be something some OC people might do?

Some (very high [and/or fairly odd!]) anglican churches, and, I believe, RC churches pray for the dead. Do the OC do that? If so, why? [any RC shipmates, would be interested to know why from an RC perspective too!] Does that mean that the OC believes in purgatory (not this board btw [Roll Eyes] ). If the OC doesn't want to damage the body, does that preclude OC members from organ donation? I thought not from this link (scroll down the alphabetical list to 'Greek Orthadox') What makes this different to cremation?

Does the OC have "confession" like the RC church do? Do they therefore have a similar ceremony to "the last rites"?

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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bottom, double-posting again.
Does this make me the rudest person on the ship [Frown] [Hot and Hormonal]

I just wanted to say to Mousethief...
quote:
The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom alternates between sung choral pieces (in many greek churches these are chanted by a cantor, but in the Russian tradition they are sung by the choir (and the congregation, although this varies and (sadly) I have been shushed for singing along with the choir at an Orthodox church before!)), and litanies which are led by the deacon if there is one, or the priest if there's no deacon. Even if there is a deacon the closing prayer of each litany is done by the priest.

The litanies have the response (sung by the choir and/or choir plus congregation) "Lord have mercy" and/or "Grant it, O Lord."

Being in the choir, the service goes by very fast. You're either paying attention to what you're singing presently, or looking forward to what comes next. In our parish, we have a variety of musical pieces to choose from for each sung bit of the service, and our choir director (who is also our Matushka, i.e. priest's wife) decides as the service progresses which variation to use for each bit of the service. So for example if there is a small choir or we're really out of tune on a particular morning, she will likely use the Byzantine variants, which are a simple melody over a one- or two-note drone (sung by the men and called an "ison"); if we're in good voice, she'll choose the more difficult pieces. And if we're very very good she'll let us sing the Trisagion Prayers according to the music written by Tchaikovsky, which is our favourite. If there are a lot of altos on a given morning, we'll sing the Angelic Hymn using the music of the Georgian Wedding Hymn, in which the melody is carried by the altos, and which is feverishly pretty.

this has me salivating a bit - do you know of any really good recordings of any or all of these and others?
Would Tavener's music be a good guideline for the general Orthodox sound & vibe?

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Would Tavener's music be a good guideline for the general Orthodox sound & vibe?

No. He's a little more -um- experimental than most of our liturgical music.

Our church choir has a CD from which I've been meaning to post teasers on my website -- I should get busy and do that.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear [Axe murder] anddaisies

quote:
being an alien practise to me, I find that a bit creepy to think about! I find myself a bit weirded out by people processing past a coffin (as in Regan's recent 'lying in state') since the person's dead - it's just a corpse, inert flesh & bones. The person doesn't know they're having posthumous visitors! I believe some RCs have the body in their house for a period... would that be something some OC people might do?
Yes, indeed we do that as well.

"It's just a corpse, inert flesh and bones."

This depends on how you evaluate the material realm. Even the corruptible body for us has a dignity. This was the body that God fashioned through genetics in the womb. It is his handiwork through natural processes. It is a holy thing as all created things are holy things. Of course, death has wrought its curse over humankind but we stare death in the face confident in the power of the Risen Christ and say "these bones shall live!" (Ezekiel). By this we do NOT mean that at the resurrection the dissolved body will reconstitute. We do, however, honour this earthly vehicle as the paschal template of something better. We do not go down the route of saying: "this is only an empty shell."

quote:

Some (very high [and/or fairly odd!]) anglican churches, and, I believe, RC churches pray for the dead. Do the OC do that? If so, why? [any RC shipmates, would be interested to know why from an RC perspective too!] Does that mean that the OC believes in purgatory (not this board btw).

We do pray for the dead and although Orthodox do believe in an intermediate state before the general resurrection; we do not hold to the "Latin" doctrine of purgatory. We indicate our love for the reposed by praying for them and seeking their prayers for us. Prayer is the language of love. Death does not destroy that link. How can it if Christ is risen and his friends live in him?

quote:
If the OC doesn't want to damage the body, does that preclude OC members from organ donation? I thought not from this link (scroll down the alphabetical list to 'Greek Orthodox') What makes this different to cremation?
We allow organ donation because this is the gift of the donor for another life. Cremation is active destruction. Posthumous organ donation does not register as that.

quote:
Does the OC have "confession" like the RC church do? Do they therefore have a similar ceremony to "the last rites"?
Yes and Yes.

[ 11. June 2004, 15:39: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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oo - your church choir's cd... where could I get hold of it?.. [Big Grin]

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I find myself a bit weirded out by people processing past a coffin (as in Regan's recent 'lying in state') since the pseron's dead - it's just a corpse, inert flesh & bones. The person doesn't know they're having posthumous visitors! I believe some RCs have the body in their house for a period... would that be something some OC people might do?

To answer your last question first, usually the lying in state is done in the church, the night before the funeral. People will sit with the body and read from the Psalter through the night. It may be different in the old country(ies), but I don't know about that.

To us the corpse isn't just flesh and bones because it is the body of our loved one. And although their spirit has gone on, and they will get a new body at the resurrection, this is still the body that was them for all those years.

We are not merely a ghost in a machine -- the body is not merely a recepticle for the soul. We are a unit, a unity. This is why death is so wrong: it divides what should not be divided. I am not at all sure how to put it in to words. It's not just a body. It is the physical remains of N., whom we dearly loved. And inasmuch as N. has been made holy by God over the course of their life, then that body has also been made holy (being part and parcel of who N. was), and even after the spirit departs it is a holy thing and should be treated with reverence.

I fear I've made it more opaque by my clumsy words.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear [Axe murder] anddaisies
If you are interested in Orthodox Music may I suggest you contact the distribution Company of which I am Secretary ... 01782 576933 (International +44 1782 576933). Here is the web site. There is an online catalogue (but not ordering facility as yet). Contact Nicholas or Nina Chapman by phone and quote me!

Orthodox Christian Books Ltd.

We import from America as well. Mousethief ... it might be worth you contacting us as well.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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luvanddaisies,

Just a quick response -- I've got to run to take littlest one to school and get to work -- but about the body of someone who has died ...

I had always thought I'd find kissing the corpse to be icky. But when an elderly friend of mine died, and I went to her funeral, her nieces spent some time before the service fussing over her body, adjusting her hair, making sure her clothes were arranged just right. They were able to do those last gentle, personal acts of love for her, and kiss her goodbye. It was beautiful.

When my mother died, I gave her a quick kiss goodbye as the mortuary workers took her body from the house. But then she was cremated. I felt cheated that she wasn't there, at her funeral, for me to fuss over. I needed her to be there.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Scarlet

Mellon Collie
# 1738

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Our church choir has a CD from which I've been meaning to post teasers on my website -- I should get busy and do that.

I would be interested in this, too. Is it true that the music in the Russian churches is more melodic than that in our Antiochian ones? I was intrigued when you mentioned using the music of Tchaikovsky for the Trisagion Prayers. I don't believe my church uses any Western music.

In our church, we all merrily sing with everythingthe choir sings. To me, the entire Divine Liturgy is one long glorious musical piece. It's amazing that in two years I have memorized an hour and a half of a religious musical. (luvanddaises, we don't have sing-along song sheets or overheads...)

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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
oo - your church choir's cd... where could I get hold of it?.. [Big Grin]

Send me your address and $20 and I'll pop it in the mail to you.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by bessie rosebride:
Is it true that the music in the Russian churches is more melodic than that in our Antiochian ones?

In my experience, yes.

quote:
I was intrigued when you mentioned using the music of Tchaikovsky for the Trisagion Prayers. I don't believe my church uses any Western music.
Western? Tchaikovsky? IS OUTRAGE! [Big Grin]

quote:
In our church, we all merrily sing with everythingthe choir sings.
That's exactly as it should be!

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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