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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Orthodoxy - a total ignoramus asks ;
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
cross-posting, double-posting, oh it's all going pear-shaped here in kirsten-land today ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Fr Gregory - that answers my questions (yet again). Are you a font of all knowledge? you certainly seem to be!!!
quote:
although Orthodox do believe in an intermediate state before the general resurrection; we do not hold to the "Latin" doctrine of purgatory
what is the nature of the intermediate state?
is it a mystery like our own resurrection?
what parts of the afterlife mystery aren't a mystery (hmm, can't find a better way of saying that!) - how would you summarise the OC's beliefs about what's next?
quote:
paschal template
baba
I think I know what both of these mean... could you define them briefly so I know I do!
quote:
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Does the OC have "confession" like the RC church do? Do they therefore have a similar ceremony to "the last rites"?
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Yes and Yes.
what happens at these? are they mandatory?
how does the OC see suicide? is is an unforgivable thing, as it is seen by the RCs, or is it just a sad tragedy with no particular bearing on salvation in and of itself, as in the anglican & all other protestant churches?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Bessie
The Antiochian churches vary a lot between those using more classical Arabic chants (Byzantine derivative) and those (like us) who have adopted more western styles both Greek and Russian.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Baba is short for "babushka" which means -- i'm not sure what it means. But in practical terms it means "little old lady" and is an affectionate term for the matriarchs of any church. (In greek churches they are called yayas.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I was intrigued when you mentioned using the music of Tchaikovsky for the Trisagion Prayers. I don't believe my church uses any Western music.
Western? Tchaikovsky? IS OUTRAGE! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
My bad! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) anddaisies
quote:
what is the nature of the intermediate state?
is it a mystery like our own resurrection?
what parts of the afterlife mystery aren't a mystery (hmm, can't find a better way of saying that!) - how would you summarise the OC's beliefs about what's next?
We don't know.
Yes.
What's next is like comparing cardboard with haute cuisine. No more data available ... please call later ... beep, beep ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Paschal Template
This body informs what our resurrection body will be like. So, the materialising / dematerialising body of the Risen Christ had wounds. He was (and is) RECOGNISABLY the same person as the Crucified One.
quote:
what happens at these? are they mandatory?
Orthodox (usually) want to confess. Compulsion doesn't come into it.
quote:
how does the OC see suicide? is is an unforgivable thing, as it is seen by the RCs, or is it just a sad tragedy with no particular bearing on salvation in and of itself, as in the anglican & all other protestant churches?
Concerning suicide there are differing views as will be plain from here ...
Orthodox Church and Suicide
[ 11. June 2004, 16:16: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Some (very high [and/or fairly odd!]) anglican churches, and, I believe, RC churches pray for the dead.
I think you'll find you're a bit out on Anglican practice there. The (probably vast) majority of Anglican churches pray for the dead.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Baba is short for "babushka" which means -- i'm not sure what it means. But in practical terms it means "little old lady" and is an affectionate term for the matriarchs of any church. (In greek churches they are called yayas.)
My Baba was my grandmother. I believe babushka means grandmother in both Russian and Ukranian.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Some (very high [and/or fairly odd!]) anglican churches, and, I believe, RC churches pray for the dead.
I think you'll find you're a bit out on Anglican practice there. The (probably vast) majority of Anglican churches pray for the dead.
you have got to be joking!!!
most anglicans I know pound their heads off of walls when they hear another anglican church praying for the dead (others sigh and go off to get their lighter-fuel!). I would suggest it's only a minority of the very very highest churches that do that
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
all depends what you mean by "praying for the dead".
IME, if a church says prayers for the family of someone who has died and thanks God for the life of the recently deceased (which everyone does), that gets reported as "praying for the dead" (which I agree that few anglicans do in the sense that l&d understands it).
I'm what some might class as a hard core evangelical and I have been known to pray "Lord, have mercy on them" when I hear of people I don't know dying. Thinking about it, I guess that counts, even though from me it's actually a prayer that they put their trust in Jesus before they died.
Custard
[ 11. June 2004, 18:55: Message edited by: Custard123 ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Our parish which is Antiochian has vespers on Saturday evenings and othros (matins) and the divine liturgy on Sunday mornings. You can buy small service booklets for the liturgy but I rarely if ever see anybody with one and there are no service sheets or paperwork handed out before the liturgy. Everybody is really expected to know what's going on, which can be confusing for people new to Orthodoxy.
We do unfortunately have folding chairs in the main worship space, but the only time people sit in our parish is during the sermon. There is no child care or outside activity during the liturgy, it's expected that all ages participate. People do frequently go in and out as needed which isn't disruptive because everyone is standing.
Our choir uses Byzantine chants which I think are basically Greek influenced for the most part, though I prefer the Slavonic melodies myself. It's all in English though except for a few of the responses. Occasionally some Arabic is incorporated in a few places because there are some Palestinian and Lebanese families in the parish. The choir is absolutely central to the service and I would say the choir director is really second only to the priest in importance in the liturgy. People participate in the singing in various levels in the congregation.
If you want a quick glimpse at Orthodox liturgical music take a look at this site. I think you can listen to the songs online, I just paid the few bucks they ask for and downloaded the MP3's. Some of my favorite non-liturgical influenced Orthodox music is by the Estonian composer Arvo Pärt.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Some (very high [and/or fairly odd!]) anglican churches, and, I believe, RC churches pray for the dead.
I think you'll find you're a bit out on Anglican practice there. The (probably vast) majority of Anglican churches pray for the dead.
you have got to be joking!!!
most anglicans I know pound their heads off of walls when they hear another anglican church praying for the dead (others sigh and go off to get their lighter-fuel!). I would suggest it's only a minority of the very very highest churches that do that
Luv&d, you clearly need to get out more!
I don't know about the vast majority of Anglicans, but you would almost certainly find that all "catholic" Anglicans (including "liberal" ones) include the faithful departed in their public prayers - so that must make it at least a third for starters.
Indeed, many Anglican official liturgical materials include prayers for the faithful departed and have done for yonks - here's just one example
CB
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Undiscovered Country
Shipmate
# 4811
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Baba is short for "babushka" which means -- i'm not sure what it means. But in practical terms it means "little old lady" and is an affectionate term for the matriarchs of any church. (In greek churches they are called yayas.)
So The Rolling Stones album 'Get Your Yayas Out' was a secret call to Greek Orthodox grandmothers!
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all hope of progress rests with the unreasonable man.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Some (very high [and/or fairly odd!]) anglican churches, and, I believe, RC churches pray for the dead.
I think you'll find you're a bit out on Anglican practice there. The (probably vast) majority of Anglican churches pray for the dead.
you have got to be joking!!!
most anglicans I know pound their heads off of walls when they hear another anglican church praying for the dead (others sigh and go off to get their lighter-fuel!). I would suggest it's only a minority of the very very highest churches that do that
Luv&d, you clearly need to get out more!
I don't know about the vast majority of Anglicans, but you would almost certainly find that all "catholic" Anglicans (including "liberal" ones) include the faithful departed in their public prayers - so that must make it at least a third for starters.
Indeed, many Anglican official liturgical materials include prayers for the faithful departed and have done for yonks - here's just one example
CB
aaarrggh. I'm gonna send the anglican-church-police round (as soon as I find any!)
praying for the family & thanking God for the life etc of a person fits with the anglican (and IMHO, Biblical) faith.
praying for a dead person's soul doesn't fit with the anglican faith. Anglo-catholic, maybe, but they're a small minority, I thought they were anyway!
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Undiscovered Country:
So The Rolling Stones album 'Get Your Yayas Out' was a secret call to Greek Orthodox grandmothers!
That was a call for all good Greeks to take their grandmothers to the park. It went mostly unheeded and misunderstood at the time, unfortunately.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
aaarrggh. I'm gonna send the anglican-church-police round (as soon as I find any!)
praying for the family & thanking God for the life etc of a person fits with the anglican (and IMHO, Biblical) faith.
praying for a dead person's soul doesn't fit with the anglican faith. Anglo-catholic, maybe, but they're a small minority, I thought they were anyway!
You really do need to get out and about a bit more, luv&d - perhaps I'll invite you to the next big Requiem Mass at my home parish!
Your analysis of what is and isn't the "anglican faith" is about 150 years out of date. Here are two more very mainstream examples of sanctioned prayer for the dead - from Common Worship!
quote:
You promised eternal life to those who believe.
Remember for good this your servant N
as we also remember him/her.
Bring all who rest in Christ
into the fullness of your kingdom
where sins have been forgiven
and death is no more.
Remember, O Lord,
this your servant,
who has gone before us with the sign of faith
and now rests in the sleep of peace.
According to your promises,
grant to him/her and to all who rest in Christ,
refreshment, light and peace;
through the same Christ our Lord.
My emphasis, natch.
Believe me, this sort of prayer isn't really the exclusive province of AC-dom any more. You don't get more "mainstream" than CW, after all!
Open your eyes, l&d - there's a whole wide diverse Communion out there!
CB
PS Good luck with finding an obliging Anglican Police Constable - I've been searching for one for years to stop all this "lay celebration" that's been going on all over the place.
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I do fear that I must second the shipmates who write that luvvandaisies must get out more (perhaps they will provide him him/her with a cheering stirrup cup!).
Almost everywhere in Canada, prayers analogous to those found in CW2 are said, especially when there have been recent bereavements in the parish. The snakesbelly Irish-origin congregations in the Ottawa Valley quite happily offer up prayers for the departed. It seems to be quite standard here these days although one of my immigrant clerical acquaintances would suggest that this is owing to a lack of theological introspection which he believes is characteristic of Canadians.
It would appear that its origin here is in popular sentiment after the relatively harrowing losses in World War I (as in Britain and France, every small settlement has its granite monument with lists of local names).
But if luvvandaisies passes through town, we can surely offer him/her a glass of our local ale for comfort or, if desired, some of the silken home-made vodkas or araks produced by neighbouring Orthodox.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
But if luvvandaisies passes through town, we can surely offer him/her a glass of our local ale for comfort or, if desired, some of the silken home-made vodkas or araks produced by neighbouring Orthodox.
Go for it, luv&d! That certainly beats the offer of introduction to Anglo-Catholicism I got: "Mark, would you be interested in learning how to serve the Mass properly?", I think it was ... (Never looked back though!).
CB
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
praying for a dead person's soul doesn't fit with the anglican faith. Anglo-catholic, maybe, but they're a small minority, I thought they were anyway!
I don't know what the 'Anglican faith' is. I've always considered myself an Anglican who professes the Christian faith. Would you care to explain why the, very ancient practice of prayer for the dead, doesn't fit with the faith?
C-B makes a good point about liturgy.
Luvndaisies, go out and meet some Anglo-catholics. We don't generally bite. We're a minority in England, although a significant one, but well represented worldwide. And, by all accounts, both Archbishops in England are A-Cs. So we're hardly marginal.
[ 13. June 2004, 23:25: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw-Dwarf ]
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insert amusing sig. here
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
You promised eternal life to those who believe.
Remember for good this your servant N
as we also remember him/her.
Bring all who rest in Christ
into the fullness of your kingdom
where sins have been forgiven
and death is no more.
Remember, O Lord,
this your servant,
who has gone before us with the sign of faith
and now rests in the sleep of peace.
According to your promises,
grant to him/her and to all who rest in Christ,
refreshment, light and peace;
through the same Christ our Lord.
I've never heard anyone take "rest in Christ" to mean dead guys! - the common understanding, even amongst the ex-catholics I canvassed this evening at church, is that those who rest in Christ are those [alive] who trust Him & therefore have peace & rest in Him.
I never said there were no anglicans who prayed for the dead - just that they were in the minority, and am assured by the theological anglican bunch at church that they are, in the UK at least - I understand the USA/Canada anglicans tend to be what much of the UK anglican lot would consider pretty high.
anyway, back to pumping the Orthodox shipmates for information...
more wonderings I'm afraid... do you want to thump me for being over-interested yet?
- The OC doesn't ordain women (see, see, learned something!!! dim violist shows ability to retain information!) - do women have any teaching / pastoral role in the OC?
- Does the OC tend to have an equivilent to sunday schools &/or youth clubs? Someone said on this thread that they have everyone in church for services, is that general practise.
- The prevailing stereotype of an OC congregation is a bunch of men in black robe/dress/thingies with long beards. On a scale of 1-10, how fact-related is that?
( 10 = true, 1 = ?@~#%*&! ). If the latter, where & how did that picture rise?
- Would the OC consider itself to be particularly rooted in Jewish history & custom, given its eastern heritage, or would it, with its arabic conections, feel itself to be rather distinct from that - especially given Israel/Palestine's tragic state?
- Is the OC particularly zionist in its views, or does that vary from person to person?
- As an OC individual, what was the single bigest clincher for you that convinced you that the OC was the true church for you, indeed, tht the OC is the true Church?
- How would you, as a member of the OC which traditionally isn't exactly ecumenical or a eading light in its local "churches together" groups (!), see other Christians? I know some OC members would take umbridge at the use of the term "other Christians" at all.
- If you've got children, how do they understand & what are their impressions of the OC faith? Is there an adult baptism or confirmation in the OC [chrismation? is that parallelish?] when they become old enough to embrace their own faith rather than coasting along with their parents?
thanks again for the really interesting & patient answers to my questions.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
I can assure you that the phrase 'those who rest in Christ' refers to the departed. I suggest that the 'theological [sic] Anglican bunch' at your church may be a little biased as regards the relative sizes of traditions in the CE. Much as you and I, for different reasons, might regret it, huge swathes of the CE are committed to middle-of-the-road nothing-muchness. But they probably pray for the dead.
[ 13. June 2004, 23:34: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw-Dwarf ]
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insert amusing sig. here
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
oh well...
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
What D-OD said.
Also, how can "grant to him/her and to all who rest in Christ, refreshment, light and peace" (from the second pryaer) be interpreted as anything other than a prayer for the departed?
Believe me on this one, l&d - this practice is boringly mainstream Anglican.
Learning more about Orthodoxy is good, and I'm learning stuff here too - but learning more about your own faith background from fellow Anglicans will help you see Orthodoxy more for what it is too!
[Bad cross-post, but what the hell ...]
CB
[ 13. June 2004, 23:40: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I am certain that our Orthodox shipmates are well capable of speaking for themselves but perhaps I might be permitted to make some observations on 2 of L&D's questions.
Women seem to take an active role in OCA & Antiochian church life here, sitting on committees of all sorts and making themselves heard, sometimes to the discomfiture of the clergy (but always to their benefit). Vague memories of perusing the Antiochian papers suggest that their influence is strong, but I may simply be extrapolating from the vigour of expression of my Arab women friends. As well, there are three women lecturers at Saint Vladimir's in NY state, one of the largest and best-known Orthodox seminaries in North America.
SOYO (Syrian, viz., Antiochian, Orthodox Youth Organization) is fairly strong in Ontario, and they seem to be holding a perpetual cacaphony of camps, group trips, volleyball tournaments, charity walks and bible quizzes. I suppose that the situation with youth groups varies greatly from place to place, and church to church.
In any case, there's enough women's and youth activity here to bring them to the notice of the heterodox.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In my experience the OC is not zionist and almost anti-zionist. So many of palestinian christians are Orthodox (the vast majority, i believe) that the zionist principles of a jewish-dominated state don't really appeal to orthodox sensibilities. It's an unfortunate tightrope to have to walk. There is a great deal of suffering and goodwill on both sides. But all of the people from that part of the world I know are Palestinians whose homes have been stolen by the Israelis.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
- The OC doesn't ordain women (see, see, learned something!!! dim violist shows ability to retain information!) - do women have any teaching / pastoral role in the OC?
Women don't serve as deacons, priests, or bishops, but they can (and do) do most anything else. I've served on the parish council, I started the church school at our parish (which is currently run by a woman), I teach the teen class.
St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Basil the Great were taught the Christian faith by their teacher and sister, St. Macrina.
quote:
- Does the OC tend to have an equivilent to sunday schools &/or youth clubs? Someone said on this thread that they have everyone in church for services, is that general practise.
Orthodox churches in America have Sunday school and youth clubs. I'm not sure about anywhere else. And yes, it's the general practice that everyone be in church for the services. Sunday school is held either before or after the Divine Liturgy, not during. (Except, of course, in some Greek churches -- the same ones that have pews and organs. But we won't talk about them.)
quote:
- The prevailing stereotype of an OC congregation is a bunch of men in black robe/dress/thingies with long beards. On a scale of 1-10, how fact-related is that?
( 10 = true, 1 = ?@~#%*&! ). If the latter, where & how did that picture rise?
Only clergy (reader, subdeacon, deacon, priest, or bishop) or monastics (monks or nuns) wear black robes. In a typical parish, the only clergy they have is the priest, so there aren't any men there in black robes during the service.
Our parish has one priest, two deacons, one subdeacon, and two readers, which is a LOT of clergy for one parish, so there may be as many as six men there in black robes after the service, but only two during the service, and they're both in the choir. We have 100+ folks there on a typical Sunday morning, so the men in black robes are hardly the majority.
I suppose the stereotype must come from pictures from monasteries. If you were in a men's monastery, you'd see nothing but men in black robes with long beards. In a women's monastery, you'd see nothing but women in black robes -- no beards.
quote:
- Would the OC consider itself to be particularly rooted in Jewish history & custom, given its eastern heritage, or would it, with its arabic conections, feel itself to be rather distinct from that - especially given Israel/Palestine's tragic state?
Yes, the OC is rooted in Jewish history and custom.
quote:
- Is the OC particularly zionist in its views, or does that vary from person to person?
The Orthodox Church is not zionist at all. Most Orthodox are very sympathetic to the Palestinians.
quote:
- As an OC individual, what was the single bigest clincher for you that convinced you that the OC was the true church for you, indeed, tht the OC is the true Church?
The Commonitory of St. Vincent of Lerins.
quote:
- How would you, as a member of the OC which traditionally isn't exactly ecumenical or a eading light in its local "churches together" groups (!), see other Christians? I know some OC members would take umbridge at the use of the term "other Christians" at all.
For myself, I see other Christians as being in a position somewhat analogous to catechumens. They belong to Christ, but are not yet visibly part of the Church.
quote:
- If you've got children, how do they understand & what are their impressions of the OC faith? Is there an adult baptism or confirmation in the OC [chrismation? is that parallelish?] when they become old enough to embrace their own faith rather than coasting along with their parents?
Children are baptized and chrismated in infancy, if their parents are Orthodox. There is no "spiritual coming of age" ceremony, unless you count their first confession (usually around the age of seven or eight).
My eldest son (age 20) currently counts himself an atheist, and considers all religion foolish and unenlightened. My daughter is considering a monastic vocation. My two younger sons are pious after their own fashion, and currently wouldn't consider being anything other than Orthodox.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
I'll take a crack at a few of these
quote:
- The OC doesn't ordain women (see, see, learned something!!! dim violist shows ability to retain information!) - do women have any teaching / pastoral role in the OC?
In our church, which I think represents the majority of Orthodoxy, women can serve in any role aside from that of bishop/priest/deacon. That includes being the choir director, teaching, reading during the liturgy (we don't have a dedicated reader, somebody from the choir does it) and so forth. The women in our parish serve on and/or lead all of the major ministries.
quote:
- Does the OC tend to have an equivilent to sunday schools &/or youth clubs? Someone said on this thread that they have everyone in church for services, is that general practise.
I believe that was me and from talking to other people I believe it's the norm, at least in the west, that everyone participates in the liturgy. There's no school, nursery or anything else going during the liturgy. The kids tend to make the rounds in our parish during the liturgy with different adults looking after them at different times. After liturgy everyone that sticks around eats a lunch that somebody from the parish has brought in and people are usually hungry from fasting before communion. After eating the different age groups all have their different classes. There are some youth activities that happen outside of the normal Sunday routine and their is a teen group that does stuff on its own as well.
The Antiochian archdiocese runs a bunch of youth oriented activities. There's summer camps, a college ministry and a youth ministry that I've seen information in the bulletin about.
quote:
- The prevailing stereotype of an OC congregation is a bunch of men in black robe/dress/thingies with long beards. On a scale of 1-10, how fact-related is that?
( 10 = true, 1 = ?@~#%*&! ). If the latter, where & how did that picture rise?
I'm sure it's true in some places, especially among the more traditionalist of the Orthodox. The parishes I've been to in the West generally don't fit with this stereotype.
quote:
- Would the OC consider itself to be particularly rooted in Jewish history & custom, given its eastern heritage, or would it, with its arabic conections, feel itself to be rather distinct from that - especially given Israel/Palestine's tragic state?
I was really surpised to find how much of the Jewish heritage of the church has lived on in Orthodoxy. One of the best books I've read so far deals specifically with the continuity of temple and synagogue worship in the Orthodox liturgy. This link has a short description of it. It's not uncommon to see icons of figures drawn from the Old Testament in Orthodox churches for instance, including figures such as David and Elijah. A good deal of the mysticism in the church also has Jewish antecedents.
quote:
- Is the OC particularly zionist in its views, or does that vary from person to person?
I think you would find very few, if any zionists in Orthodoxy. Orthodox Christians native to the Holy Land have been among the people most directly feeling the effects of what's happened in the post-war Middle East. I think Orthodox people would look at the Christian zionist stuff like the Left Behind series as pure Chiliasm.
quote:
- As an OC individual, what was the single bigest clincher for you that convinced you that the OC was the true church for you, indeed, tht the OC is the true Church?
It's hard to say what the biggest single clincher was. It was a lot of reading church history, a look at what happened in the churches of the west over time and direct participation in the liturgy possibly all in equal measure.
quote:
- How would you, as a member of the OC which traditionally isn't exactly ecumenical or a eading light in its local "churches together" groups (!), see other Christians? I know some OC members would take umbridge at the use of the term "other Christians" at all.
I'll take a pass, because I don't have a membership card yet. I will say there's no universal opinion though on the matter.
quote:
- If you've got children, how do they understand & what are their impressions of the OC faith? Is there an adult baptism or confirmation in the OC [chrismation? is that parallelish?] when they become old enough to embrace their own faith rather than coasting along with their parents?
My kids are young, two and four, so they don't really have much of a frame of reference beyond it. My daughter seems to really like the prayers and icons.
There are in every Orthodox parish I've ever seen inquirers and/or catechumens classes open to everyone. In the class we just finished a lady who is cradle Orthodox came because she wanted to get a better understanding of the church. Usually adults would become a catechumen for a variable amount of time before being received in the church. Some by baptism and chrismation, others by chrismation only depending on the church they came from and which jurisdiction they're going into.
Children, as soon as they are baptized and chrismated beging taking communion which has always been Orthodox practice. There is no wait until a later age to be confirmed for this to start.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who coast in their faith in Orthodoxy and otherwise. Orthodoxy though is not about coasting. It's really a real life change especially. The cycle of services, the fasting and everything else make it something you don't just approach lightly. Praying, talking about faith and making God part of the home are greatly stressed at all times, but come in to special focus during Lent.
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Oh drat, missed my edit window. In the last paragraph I meant " It's really a real life change especially" for converts. josephine already gave several good answers while I was composing this.
The only other thing I would add is Orthodoxy doesn't foster coasting, or shouldn't, because it's about a process of becoming. It's not about instantaneous conversion or eternal security. It should be un upward and never ending movement of participation in the energies of God's holiness, portrayed I think nicely in the ladder of St. John Climacus.
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Just to weigh in on the prayers for the dead question, our BCP has at least one reference that I know of (didn't go digging through it) in one of the forms for Prayers of the People that says "We pray for those who have died, that they may have a place in your eternal kingdom." I would be mildly surprised if there are no more. We also add in our congregational prayers the sentence (for recent deaths)"we pray for the repose of the soul of ______" as part of our intercession prayers. So that's pretty explicit, and in our main prayer book.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
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Cusanus
Ship's Schoolmaster
# 692
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Posted
quote:
How would you, as a member of the OC which traditionally isn't exactly ecumenical or a eading light in its local "churches together" groups (!), see other Christians? I know some OC members would take umbridge at the use of the term "other Christians" at all.
Actually here in Oz the Orthodox churches have been very active in the ecumenical movement.
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"You are qualified," sa fotherington-tomas, "becos you can frankly never pass an exam and have 0 branes. Obviously you will be a skoolmaster - there is no other choice."
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Having been a Protestant and an Evangelical and an Episcopalian, I can't take umbridge at the term "other christians" -- I recognize and acknowledge and am eternally grateful for the Christian growth and nurturing I got in those places.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Coming in late as usual...
On the topic of singing, one of the things I love about the (English-speaking Antiochian) parish I am at is that while we have a wondrous, yet small, choir, the entire congregation belts out the responses and chants the Communion Hymns with gusto. 'Tis a wonderful thing. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Thanks for the questions and the answers. I have learnt a great deal here and have much more to ponder and investigate.
Ian.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
sorry to make this thread resurface again - rereading & consideraton has left me with a few more questions...
* What version of the Bible is the usual one used in the OC?
* St Vincent's three rules (summarised by Josephine near the beginning of this thread) - am I right in understanding that they are...
1) old teaching takes precedence over new
2) the belief of the Christian majority take precedence over the minority
3) the opinions of those appearing to really know God take precedence over those of "those who are less godly"
if so, how does the OC come to the conclusion that propitiatory, substitutionary atonement is not an accurate description of why Jesus had to go to the Cross, then rise again?
* could someone expand on what is meant by theosis / deification & how it is distinct to the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit
* Fr G said (adain, back on page 1 of this thread!) that another distinction of the OC is St Gregory Palamas's belief... quote from Fr G here ..."that the transforming energies of God ARE God and not creatures of God or grace. The Light of the Transfiguration IS the presence of God and we can participate in it / Him insofar as we are purified by repentance".
How is this different to the sanctifying work of the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Is the Light of Transfiguration the same light that caused the blinding radiance from Moses's face?
* How would the OC define grace (in the Christian / Biblical sense) to a non-Christian enquirer? Would this be different from how an evangelical or an RC person might answer the same question?
* when OC people here talk about their prayers & attitude being very trinitarian, how does that trinitatian-ness differ from evangelical trinitatian-ness (if at all?)
* how would the OC react to & back up its reaction to the following...
sola scriptura (think this has mostly been covered though!)
sola fidelis
eternal security
imputed righteousness
* for those who are OC members, is there anything about the OC that you wish was different or that you would like to change, or that makes you feel a little uncomfortable etc?
* how does the veneration of icons contribute to sanctification? (ref to one of Fr G's early posts, still page 1 of this thread)
* where does the OC's tradition of Jpseph being an elderly widower come from?
* what is the "protoevangelium of James" & who wrote it? [James?]
* if the OC use the jewish Old Testament, do they keep the books of the OT in their original order too?
* how do the OC see Jesus's pre-incarnate appearences in the OT? - Abraham's lunch, speaking to Mr & Mrs Manoah, anywhere the Angel of the Lord pops up really!
* what is the OC's official position on some of the contemporary issues such as stem cell research, abortion, contraception & genetical engineering?
* how does the OC see darwinism - thumbs up or thumbs down? what about physics's quest for one unifying theory? [apart from God!]
* Mousethief & Fr G - I am interested in OC music, but haven't followed up any of your contacts or links yet due to being disorganised - sorry!!!
* sounds like the choir director is very significant in the OC. How are they trained?
think that's it for now... watch this space though!!!
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Mousethief & Fr G - I am interested in OC music, but haven't followed up any of your contacts or links yet due to being disorganised - sorry!!!
Don't be too hard on yourself, l&d. There's only so much time in the day, and all that praying for the souls of the faithful departed you'll have been doing since you found out it's authentically Anglican is very time-consuming.
CB
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
oops, sorry, forgot a couple & ran out of edit time...
* what does the OC teach about angels / seraphim / cherubim / living dreatures etc
* what is the OC position on homosexuality?
* what is the OC's view of Charismata? - thinking especially of 'toungues' and 'prophesy'
* how do you see the charismatic practise of raising hands during sung worship? Are there any equivalents?
* does the idea of Christian pop-music (etc) make the members of the OC want to run screaming into the hills?!
...sorry ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) still interested!!!
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ddraig
Shipmate
# 7572
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Posted
Hi Luvanddaisies - please keep asking questions! I've found this thread fascinating, its answered some of my questions too!
I've only just emerged from lurking, and I don't want to tread on any toes (FrG, Mousethief et al.) but a good book that answers some of your questions is Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church". I'm almost at the end of it, and I've found it relatively easy to understand.
Don't know if it might help out here (if you can find a copy - Amazon has them).
Just a thought
Liz
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Theism - A morbid condition characterized by headache, sleeplessness, and palpitation of the heart, caused by excessive tea-drinking. Oxford English Dictionary
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
BUMP
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear anddaisies
sorry to make this thread resurface again - rereading & consideraton has left me with a few more questions...
* What version of the Bible is the usual one used in the OC?
The Septuagint for the OT and the best Greek translation for the NT ...a few possibilities exist for the Orthodox right now in English. The OT Septuagint will soon be ready in English.
* St Vincent's three rules (summarised by Josephine near the beginning of this thread) - am I right in understanding that they are...
1) old teaching takes precedence over new
2) the belief of the Christian majority take precedence over the minority
3) the opinions of those appearing to really know God take precedence over those of "those who are less godly"
The Vincentian canon is useful but cannot be stretched too far. The classic definitions of truth in the Church actually go on to specify how Tradition works ... and these questions raised by yourself are not pertinent to that. I'm sorry but they are too vague.
if so, how does the OC come to the conclusion that propitiatory, substitutionary atonement is not an accurate description of why Jesus had to go to the Cross, then rise again?
We simply say that picks out one element and inflates it beyond its proper place in the scheme of things.
* could someone expand on what is meant by theosis / deification & how it is distinct to the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit
Theiosis and the Indwelling of the Spirit compare as do arriving at your destination and the form of transport available.
* Fr G said (adain, back on page 1 of this thread!) that another distinction of the OC is St Gregory Palamas's belief... quote from Fr G here ..."that the transforming energies of God ARE God and not creatures of God or grace. The Light of the Transfiguration IS the presence of God and we can participate in it / Him insofar as we are purified by repentance".
How is this different to the sanctifying work of the indwelling Holy Spirit?
It's not but the end result is different ... you do find similar ideas in western Christian mystics but they have often held a rather suspect position in the western tradition. They actually consist of a call back to Orthodoxy in my opinion ... except the individualistic ones.
Is the Light of Transfiguration the same light that caused the blinding radiance from Moses's face?
No because with Moses it was a reflected afterglow .... with Christ and his friends it is all on the inside.
* How would the OC define grace (in the Christian / Biblical sense) to a non-Christian enquirer? Would this be different from how an evangelical or an RC person might answer the same question?
Not much different ... but we do not classify grace ... prevenient, infused etc.
* when OC people here talk about their prayers & attitude being very trinitarian, how does that trinitatian-ness differ from evangelical trinitatian-ness (if at all?)
We are much less squeamish about giving glory TO the Father, TO the Son and TO the Holy Spirit. We also pray less inhibitedly to all 3 hypostases, singly and together as One.
* how would the OC react to & back up its reaction to the following...
sola scriptura (think this has mostly been covered though!) See All Those Deceased Equines! Scripture is the controlling Core of Tradition.
sola fidelis
eternal security
imputed righteousness
Faith is complemented by Hope and fulfilled in Love. Eternal security is to presume. Imputed righteousness is too dryly transactional, forensic, (as indeed is SubAt.)
* for those who are OC members, is there anything about the OC that you wish was different or that you would like to change, or that makes you feel a little uncomfortable etc?
The things I don't like in Orthodoxy aren't actually Orthodox and that's NOT just my position. Jurisdictional disunity is a good example.
* how does the veneration of icons contribute to sanctification? (ref to one of Fr G's early posts, still page 1 of this thread)
Because it puts us in closer touch with Christ and his friends. If we leave the body and our senses out of worship we miss out big time.
* where does the OC's tradition of Jpseph being an elderly widower come from?
Tradition! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
* what is the "protoevangelium of James" & who wrote it? [James?]
Secure place in Tradition. Reliable but not canonical since no clear apostolic origin. Much like the Shepherd of Hermas and other such works.
* if the OC use the Jewish Old Testament, do they keep the books of the OT in their original order too?
We use the Septuagint ... as does the NT usually when it quotes the OT. This is not the same as the Masoretic text both in detail here and there and composition.
* how do the OC see Jesus's pre-incarnate appearences in the OT? - Abraham's lunch, speaking to Mr & Mrs Manoah, anywhere the Angel of the Lord pops up really!
Mileage varies but we are usually quite positive about that. The Logos has never been inactive.
* what is the OC's official position on some of the contemporary issues such as stem cell research, abortion, contraception & genetical engineering?
Contraception OK provided that it is not used to deny ANY possibility of new life ...eg., used by couples to prevent the birth of any children. No other techniques that involve the destruction of existing life OK ... this includes abortion and IVF of course. Stem cell research is OK provided that it does not use tissue "harvested" from aborted babies.
* how does the OC see darwinism - thumbs up or thumbs down? what about physics's quest for one unifying theory? [apart from God!]
The Orthodox Church does not rule out any scientific theory that capably describes creation or creation processes.
* Mousethief & Fr G - I am interested in OC music, but haven't followed up any of your contacts or links yet due to being disorganised - sorry!!!
* sounds like the choir director is very significant in the OC. How are they trained?
Usually "on the job" although attendance on courses and at practical sessions is encouraged.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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RamblinPeck
Apprentice
# 7601
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Baba is short for "babushka" which means -- i'm not sure what it means. But in practical terms it means "little old lady" and is an affectionate term for the matriarchs of any church. (In greek churches they are called yayas.)
Wow, the small amount of Russian I know actually comes in handy... that is if I'm remembering this correctly. "babushka" literally means something along the lines of "kerchiefs" or "head scarf", it just happens that all the little old ladies wore them, so the two became very closely associated and the idiom was created.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Luvanddaisies, I'll tackle a few of these. I'm sure others will answer the ones I miss. If not, ask again!
quote:
* What version of the Bible is the usual one used in the OC?
Do you mean which English translation? It varies -- lots of folks use the RSV, because there's a nice edition that includes the deuterocanonical books. Others like the KJV for the beauty of the language. Most folks avoid the NIV and the various paraphrases.
quote:
* St Vincent's three rules (summarised by Josephine near the beginning of this thread) - am I right in understanding that they are...
1) old teaching takes precedence over new
2) the belief of the Christian majority take precedence over the minority
3) the opinions of those appearing to really know God take precedence over those of "those who are less godly"
Yes. Of course, these are guiding principles, not iron-clad rules. And they don't work to answer every single possible question. But they're a good place to start.
quote:
if so, how does the OC come to the conclusion that propitiatory, substitutionary atonement is not an accurate description of why Jesus had to go to the Cross, then rise again?"
Because when we look for propitiatory, substitutionary atonement in the teachings of the ancient church, in the universal teachings of the church, and in the consensus of the saints, it simply isn't there. Not that there's absolutely nothing there at all to even suggest anything along those lines -- that would be an overstatement. But when you look at things through an Orthodox lens, as it were, it's not the picture that you see.
quote:
* could someone expand on what is meant by theosis / deification & how it is distinct to the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit
Theosis is becoming by grace what God is by nature. Imagine a fire -- that's God. Imagine an iron bar -- that's you. Now put the bar in the fire. It becomes hot, it even gives off light. It has become, as far as its nature allows, what the fire is.
Likewise, when we dwell in God and God dwells in us, we become, as far as our nature allows, what God is.
quote:
* How would the OC define grace (in the Christian / Biblical sense) to a non-Christian enquirer? Would this be different from how an evangelical or an RC person might answer the same question?
Grace is God's love made manifest. It is the presence of God in our lives. (I can't tell you how an evangelical or RC person might answer the question -- you'll have to ask them.)
quote:
* when OC people here talk about their prayers & attitude being very trinitarian, how does that trinitatian-ness differ from evangelical trinitatian-ness (if at all?)
The biggest difference, in my experience, is the way we regard the Holy Spirit. When I was an evangelical, people occasionally referred to the Holy Spirit as "it" -- they seemed to regard him as something like The Force from Star Wars. He emanated from God, and did the work God sent him out to do, but people didn't appear to think of him as a person.
In the OC, the personhood of the Holy Spirit is clear and evident. We know him as a person, just as we know the Father and the Son as persons. The Spirit isn't "the bond of love between the Father and the Son," he isn't The Force, he isn't an apparition that one can see hovering over the crowd at a healing service. He is the Third Person of the Godhead, consubstantial, co-eternal with the Father and the Son.
quote:
* for those who are OC members, is there anything about the OC that you wish was different or that you would like to change, or that makes you feel a little uncomfortable etc?
When we don't do a very good job of living out what we are, it makes me uncomfortable. So when a bunch of monks get into a fight over precedence at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, that sort of thing makes me uncomfortable. They of all people should know better!
quote:
* how does the veneration of icons contribute to sanctification? (ref to one of Fr G's early posts, still page 1 of this thread)
The icons communicate to us who we are, and what we should be becoming.
quote:
* where does the OC's tradition of Jpseph being an elderly widower come from?
I think from the Protoevangelium of James.
quote:
* what is the "protoevangelium of James" & who wrote it? [James?]
I don't know who wrote it. Probably not James. It is an early writing that the early Christians felt was important and authoritative, but not Scripture.
quote:
* if the OC use the jewish Old Testament, do they keep the books of the OT in their original order too?
Ideally, I suppose the books would be in the order they're in in the Septuagint. But mostly, you just get whatever edition of Scripture you can, and deal with whatever order the editors put the books in.
quote:
* what is the OC's official position on some of the contemporary issues such as stem cell research, abortion, contraception & genetical engineering?
Abortion isn't really a contemporary issue. It's been around far longer than the OC, and from the beginning of the Church, it has been prohibited, except to save the life of the mother. And even there, it is accepted with sorrow and fear.
For truly contemporary issues, you will usually find no single Orthodox position. The Metropolitan of Japan and the Bishop of Berkeley might have different opinions on genetic engineering; the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Antioch might have different opinions on stem cell research.
We'll get to a consensus eventually. But we don't have a form of governance that allows for immediate top-down declarations on such things.
quote:
* how does the OC see darwinism - thumbs up or thumbs down? what about physics's quest for one unifying theory? [apart from God!]
Scientific research is generally viewed positively. After all, you can't praise God for his wonders that you don't know about!
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
* what does the OC teach about angels / seraphim / cherubim / living dreatures etc
They are noncorporeal beings created by God. What else do you want to know about them?
quote:
* what is the OC position on homosexuality?
Sexual relations are permitted only between a husband and wife.
Homosexual acts outside of marriage are not viewed as different from, or worse than, heterosexual acts outside of marriage.
quote:
* what is the OC's view of Charismata? - thinking especially of 'toungues' and 'prophesy'
The "spiritual gifts" as practiced among so-called charismatic Christians are a novelty, and we don't do novelty.
However, within Orthodoxy, there is a deep and long-standing tradition of holy men and women who exercise spiritual gifts -- if you want to understand what it's about, and how it works, I'd suggest you read this life of Father Arseny, or the life of St. John of San Francisco.
quote:
* how do you see the charismatic practise of raising hands during sung worship? Are there any equivalents?
That position, of the hands raised, is traditionally a position for prayer. As used by charismatics, it's foreign to our tradition. But at many Orthodox churches, you'll see the people raise their hands when saying the Lord's Prayer, and you will always see the priest pray in that position at points during a liturgy.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
josephine said: quote:
Sexual relations are permitted only between a husband and wife.
Homosexual acts outside of marriage are not viewed as different from, or worse than, heterosexual acts outside of marriage.
So if homosexual marriage gets legalized, gay couples are in the clear?
Everyone insert the obvious answer according to Tradition™ et al
No, I thought not.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LydaRose:
So if homosexual marriage gets legalized, gay couples are in the clear?
Everyone insert the obvious answer according to Tradition™ et al
No, I thought not.
Ah, the Great American Litmus Test.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Whilst endorsing the rest of Josephine's excellent post it is going a little too far to write off "ilasterion" - propitiation along with "substitution." The latter has no place in the Tradition of the Church ... the former does. However, "ilasterion" understood in the post-Anselmian sense of the sacrifice of Christ appeasing and satisfying an outraged God is not a truthful or legitimate interpretation. Christ is both priest AND victim (Hebrews). God's action is unitary ... he acts out of love dealing with the sin itself .... not his supposed tantrums in relation to it. This does not erode his holiness, justice or sovereignty. Love perfects that and delivers all ... to himself.
[ 29. June 2004, 07:45: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Phos Hilaron
Shipmate
# 6914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Whilst endorsing the rest of Josephine's excellent post it is going a little too far to write off "ilasterion" - propitiation along with "substitution." The latter has no place in the Tradition of the Church ... the former does. However, "ilasterion" understood in the post-Anselmian sense of the sacrifice of Christ appeasing and satisfying an outraged God is not a truthful or legitimate interpretation. Christ is both priest AND victim (Hebrews). God's action is unitary ... he acts out of love dealing with the sin itself .... not his supposed tantrums in relation to it. This does not erode his holiness, justice or sovereignty. Love perfects that and delivers all ... to himself.
What's "ilasterion"?
Oh, and "Theosis" sounds very similar to "Sanctification". Is that correct?
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Gaero?.......Gaero!
Posts: 1684 | From: Choson | Registered: May 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
A Greek word used in Romans 3:25 signifying "propitiation." In modern exegetics the preferred translation has been expiation. If Christ is both Priest and Victim (which He is) both senses apply.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Faithful Sheepdog
Shipmate
# 2305
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
A Greek word used in Romans 3:25 signifying "propitiation." In modern exegetics the preferred translation has been expiation. If Christ is both Priest and Victim (which He is) both senses apply.
The English Standard Version of 2001 translates hilasterion consistently as "propitiation". Note that this translation aims to be linguistically and theologically conservative whilst retaining some KJV and old RSV flavour.
As far as I understand it, Eastern "theosis" is similar to, but not identical with, Western "sanctification". I'll leave it to Fr. Gregory to explain the full distinction.
Neil
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"Random mutation/natural selection works great in folks’ imaginations, but it’s a bust in the real world." ~ Michael J. Behe
Posts: 1097 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
How far does sanctification go in the west? I'm not always sure. Sometimes it seems to be simply the process whereby someone's character and life becomes much more Christ-like. Sometimes it's this AND a belief that we can and should really be united (not just reconciled) to God and all that entails ..... which is theiosis.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
However, "ilasterion" understood in the post-Anselmian sense of the sacrifice of Christ appeasing and satisfying an outraged God is not a truthful or legitimate interpretation.
I presume by "post-Anselmian" you do not mean to include Anselm himself in your description, since he nowhere in his Cur Deus Homo? depicts God as "outraged." Satisfactio has much more to do with setting the order of things right than with placating an angry God. Indeed, Aquinas is even further from this view. The sacrifice of Christ is the offering of his love to the Father. It does not of necessity require the destruction of Christ as the victim, though Aquinas says that Christ's death on the cross is the most "fitting" way of him offering his life and love to the Father.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Yes, indeed FCB ... this is why I used "post-" Nonetheless it is true that Anselm emphasised an interpretation which rapidly took off in popular piety down the line of placatory sacrifice. I don't think that Anselm can be completely exonerated. In the same manner, although it took a Gustav Aulen to remind Lutherans what Luther was really like, Luther himself set the tone of what was to come after him..
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