And he explained why he did so in said post.

quote:

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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:

And if I could reach out and touch a life so far away, I would. Just now all I can do is pray for them, which I do.

---

Not true. You can always reach out and touch lives. Give to charity. Sponsor a child/old person. Volunteer for aid agencies. Sell all your possessions and move to Africa and set up a hospice.

I'm not being holier-than-thou saying we all must (that would be hypocritical). But we all must take responsibility for our actions and not hide behind the false idea that we can't help because it's so far away.

quote:

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"or, worse, you get hamfisted morons like Frank Peretti or the two guys who wrote the Left Behind books who impose their own (well dodgy) doctrine on their fiction because they don't see fiction as symbolic narrative"

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It was alot more polite than what I've said about them But since you asked ...

Neither are particularly good at writing.

Both are using fiction to push (fairly heavy-handedly) a particular interpretation of the Bible / doctrine / whatever

Many people have assumed that because they've read it in a book bought from a good Christian book-shop it must be true. [Adrian has been told not to speed because "the angels let go of you if you go over 70 miles an hour" ... The speaker learnt this from a Frank Peretti book]

Spiritual warfare / the Second Coming of our Lord isn't supposed to be a money spinner!

The Bible specifically commands us not to speculate about the timing or the form of the Second Coming. Let's face it, if the Lord isn't going to tell his Son, he's hardly likely to tell the writer of dodgy marriage books!!!

The LB books gave people in my family nightmares about Satan and his hordes - like really healthy stuff to dwell on. Not!

Many churches are now actively discouraging members - particularly those new to the faith - from reading them for the reasons given above.

Sorry to have completely de-railed the thread but I do feel quite strongly about this ...

I'd take JKR over either any day

There is a difference between lies and fiction, and quite frankly, Frank Peretti's books and the Left Behind books tend more towards lies. They dishonour God, and they dishonour our faith.

See the BBC news report

quote:

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Originally posted by diorboy:
OK, so I decide to scan through most of the rest and find someone called Karl use the 'f' word. And nobody even mentioned it after that post.

---

Diorboy, that kind of language is quite acceptable on these boards.

If you want to have a discussion about the rights and wrongs of swearing in general on Purgatory, I'm sure you'll find takers.

I like the Harry Potter books (wish she'd get a move on and finish number 5) but at the same time I think there *are* things in them which people (not necessarily Christians, but anyone concerned with ethical behaviour) should be worried about. For example, Dumbledore's action in hiring Lupin (don't get me wrong, I think he's a great character) without informing the parents of his students about Lupin's, er, little problem. I think this is irresponsible (a real-world equivalent might be a head teacher knowingly hiring a paedophile to work in his/her school). I certainly wouldn't want to stop anyone reading the books because of this, but I'd want to talk about Lupin (staying with the same example) and why I thought Dumbledore was wrong to hire him to any child of mine who'd read the books. You don't pick this up in the book (except for a couple of comments that Lupin himself makes) because it seems to be an article of faith in the Potter universe that Dumbledore is always right.

But there are far better targets than Harry Potter in popular culture. Where are the howls of outrage over shows like 'The weakest link'? Now there's a programme which we ought to be concerned about, and it goes out early enough in the evening to be seen by children. Do we really want to send the message that 'It's all right to rip other people to shreds in public provided you never have anything to do with the occult'?

<dons asbestos underwear>

2) Jane - couldn't agree more about the Weakest Link. I remember vividly that when it first aired on daytime TV, the TV guide critics were saying "This is sheer nastiness - TV audiences aren't going to want to watch it." Now it's listed by the same critics as "compulsive viewing". Hmmmmm.....

3) Re: Frank Peretti & the LB books:

quote:

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Originally posted by Wood:
There is a difference between lies and fiction, and quite frankly, Frank Peretti's books and the Left Behind books tend more towards lies. They dishonour God, and they dishonour our faith.

---

Now I'm really confused. Are those books meant to be a representation of reality?

I've never read the LB books, but I've read the Frank Peretti ones.......... was that supposed to be gritty realism, then? I thought it was just more supernatural fiction, like Harry Potter etc, but with a fundamentalist rather than atheist/agnostic backdrop.

Was I supposed to take it all deadly seriously???

quote:

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Originally posted by SteveTom:
Diorboy, that kind of language is quite acceptable on these boards.

If you want to have a discussion about the rights and wrongs of swearing in general on Purgatory, I'm sure you'll find takers.

But there's no point complaining about people not being taken for task for swearing here, because they're allowed to.

---

And as the host of this board, I completely agree with SteveTom. (Being on the West Coast of the US, I'm running about 8 hours behind on posts.)
And, just as a suggestion, it's usually not good to post to a thread before reading the entire thing (specifically referring to your post about Wood's view of the author's of the "Left Behind" series). In many cases, the issues you raise may already have been addressed.
All that aside, welcome to Urban Myths. Heard any good ones lately?

Inanna--Thanks for that link about the course which uses HP!

Wood/Tubbs/et al: The discussion of the Left Behind books would be good as a separate thread--either in Purgatory (discussing the books themselves and their theology) or here, as part of the whole wider 'Christian Conspiracy Theory' of the End Times and the various Mark of the Beast rumours and myths that spring up all the time.

Everyone else-Keep it up! I'm rather happy with this thread on the whole.

I would liken it more closely to a hidden illness like epilepsy, which can be dangerous to kids if precautions aren't taken - i.e. making sure the fits are under control, and so on.

does anyone know of a good UM site specific to HP?

Yes, epilepsy is quite a good analogy, except that it isn't catching. I chose paedophilia as my example partly to illustrate the level of outrage I might feel as a parent, and partly because being molested by someone you trust would (very probably almost certainly) affect you for the rest of your life.

I suspect that JKR intended us to draw an analogy with someone who has HIV/AIDS, but I don't think the two cases are really comparable because when Lupin is dangerous to others, he has no control over his actions (just like an epileptic, as you rightly say).

This actually touches on one of the aspects of the books which I really like - the way (certain selected) prejudices are challenged. The only thing which does concern me is that sometimes there may be a good reason (in the Potterverse at least) for the prejudice. In Book 4, Hermione says something along the lines of 'well, all this anti-giant feeling is just prejudice, like the feeling against werewolves.' Well, no - don't know about giants, but werewolves sound pretty dangerous to me. Perhaps you wouldn't go so far as to shun them completely, but you'd check what time of the month it was before agreeing to have dinner with them.

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the very strong stand against horoscopes and fortune-telling in the HP books. Given that fortune-telling and seeking to know the future is specifically condemned in the Bible, I am surprised that noone has used this as an example of something in Harry Potter which agrees with Christian teaching.

Jane R

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the very strong stand against horoscopes and fortune-telling in the HP books. Given that fortune-telling and seeking to know the future is specifically condemned in the Bible, I am surprised that noone has used this as an example of something in Harry Potter which agrees with Christian teaching.

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OK, the books dismiss fortune-telling, but I don't think that means they agree with Christian teaching on the subject. The books' stand against Divination is just on the grounds that it's an imprecise science that doesn't generally work. This is really the same appeal to rationalism which is often used to attack religious faith in the unprovable.

quote:

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. In Book 4, Hermione says something along the lines of 'well, all this anti-giant feeling is just prejudice, like the feeling against werewolves.' Well, no - don't know about giants, but werewolves sound pretty dangerous to me

---

OK, maybe I was overstating the case. But one of the things Hermione objects to about Divination is that it only seems to be used to foretell horrible things. I would go along with that - if I was always foretelling doom and death, I'd probably go mad (and I wouldn't have many friends...). Better not to know in advance, if you ask me; "Present dangers are less than horrible imaginings."

Something (else) which I find disturbing about the books is the magical world's attitude towards Muggles. Even the magic-users who are kindly disposed towards Muggles, like Mr Weasley, seem to think of them as amusing creatures who need to be protected but aren't quite human. The ones like the Malfoys treat Muggles like Untermenschen. And I find the casual attitude towards Muggles who witness inconvenient things chilling - well, just zap them with Memory Charms and make them forget. Does it cause brain damage? Well, they're only Muggles, they'll never notice the difference (noone ever actually says this, but they don't seem to be concerned by disorientated Muggles wandering about).

I wonder if there are any politicians in the world who would be able to resist the temptation to have a Thought Police if it really was possible to edit our memories every time we saw something inconvenient.

Oh dear - gone off the subject of witchcraft again... but honestly, I think that the magic in the Potter books is the wrong thing to get hot under the collar about. What the magic is used for (and why, and why it's not always a good thing) is a much more interesting topic of debate and can lead on to talking about why Christians shouldn't get involved in the occult in real life. But it's much more effort than just banning the books; you have to read them yourself and then go away and think about it and find time to discuss the books with your children.

I couldn't agree more about Lupin - he's one of my favourite characters too. I also find Snape interesting - he's (apparently) the only Slytherin who has ever chosen to fight for the good guys. He's also tortured by things which happened to him in his schooldays. None of the pupils outside Slytherin really likes him, because he can be a sarcastic b*** when he puts his mind to it. But against that, he is the only character so far (apart from Harry himself) who has shown himself willing to protect people he doesn't like. He's saved Harry's life several times, both directly (by his own actions) and indirectly (by teaching Harry the Disarming Charm). He is the only person who could silence Gilderoy Lockhart in Book 2, and for that alone he is worthy of respect.

quote:

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originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:

Not true. You can always reach out and touch lives. Give to charity. Sponsor a child/old person. Volunteer for aid agencies. Sell all your possessions and move to Africa and set up a hospice.

---

Right now I dedicate 50+ hours a week to a ministry. I am overworked, underpaid, and quite often dog-tired. Moreover, I have multiple physical ailments and disabilities to overcome, including hypoglycemia, auditory dyslexia, a skin and joint disorder, and weekly migraines. By God's grace I am able to continue working. With God all things are possible.

In the future please think before you talk. I know you meant well, but I am sick of people judging me while not knowing the whole story.

[fixed UBB code]

quote:

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Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:

And it's never far away. In spiritual terms we are humanity, the redeemed Body of Christ, one unit. In physical terms, you can fly to the other side of the world in a day.

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And I do agree that the body of Christ is one, and that if our brothers and sisters are hurting in some way, so are we. Let us unite in prayer for those Christians who are right now in prison for the sake of the Word of God in nations such as China, Nepal, Sudan, etc.

[Fixed UBB code]

quote:

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And I do agree that the body of Christ is one

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And I WILL master this.

quote:

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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
In the future please think before you talk. I know you meant well, but I am sick of people judging me while not knowing the whole story.

---

Strangely enough, no one was judging you. You said that you could do nothing and Joan listed quite a few different ways that ordinary Christians can make a difference.

Nice to see that you have finally found out that other threads on these boards exist though.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:

Something (else) which I find disturbing about the books is the magical world's attitude towards Muggles.

---

I think part of the point of the books is the very separatist attitudes of a lot of the wizards to the muggles. Note in particular that this separatism is particularly in
evidence in Voldemort`s followers, and his anti-Muggle policy is stated to be the major factor in his initial widespread support when he first came to power. In other words, the elitism is indeed present to a great degree, but is being portrayed as a Bad Thing.

My take on it is that the wizards and the muggles first separated around the time of the witch-hunts, or before. Mainly because the muggles were scared of the wizards, who
could do a lot of things they couldn`t. But now, the muggles have caught up. Technology can now do a lot of things that could previously only be done by magic. The
wizards are scared of the muggles, and they don`t want anything to do with them. The progressives, exemplified by Dumbledore, want to change this, but the entire wizardly
culture is against them. Have you noticed how little the wizards (even the pro-muggle ones such as Arthur Weasley) know about the muggle world? This isn`t because they can`t
find out. Primarily, it`s because they don`t want to know, because they might find out something they don`t like.

I'm thinking it's about time to close this thread down. Most of the recent posts have been more discussions of the book itself or issues not really relevant to the subject of the fears of various groups with respect to the Potter books. I'll give it a couple more days, but if it looks like this subject has played out, I'll go ahead and call it as done.
Btw--this is definitely the longest, most active thread we've had on UM since the new boards opened last May. Nicely done folks!

tinfoil hat OFF

quote:

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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
With regards to the Potter books, my views remain unchanged. I see them as potentially dangerous. But I also went to see Star Wars as a kid, and that was full of Eastern myths which if believed to their fullest could also mislead a child. And yet, at the right time and of my own free will I discarded its ideas. As well the TV series Bewitched and the The Black Stallion books, which, though often seen as a children's series, at the end contains references to ESP and devils.

---

host hat ON
Ok.. that's that. Under the Hellish Corollary to Godwin's Law (see the thread in Hell), this thread is closed. Thanks to all who posted intelligent and thoughtful responses.
host hat OFF

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs Tubbs:
Next book not due out until next year

Tubbs

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quote:

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Rumours the latest Harry Potter book has been delayed till 2003 are wrong, according to the publisher's website.
Some reports over the last few days claimed Bloomsbury said the long awaited fifth book definitely wouldn't be out till 2003.

But on Monday night the publishers dismissed those reports, again repeating the statement on their website saying:

"JK Rowling is happily writing Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix and we anticipate that we will be publishing later this year."

There's no definite release date - JK Rowling will simply announce when she's finished writing.

And Bloomsbury thinks that it's still likely to be this year, in 2002.

---

Much as I'm desperate to read book 5, I'm not holding my breath! There are rumours that the book will be out in late November. However, different rumours are coming out all the time.

Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein, the bank which is Bloomsbury's corporate broker, released a statement in March saying that book 5 would be released in 2003, in order to cash in as much as possible before then on the publicity of the second film (due for release in mid-November 2002). Their exact words were "Why publish a new book if you get free global advertising that will have a positive effect on your existing books? Why not wait until, say, March next year to release a new book and get all the benefit from that one as well?"

Why not? Because it's outrageous money-grubbing and disrespect for fans, that's why not! However DKW were obliged to retract their statement a few days later and say that the book would be coming out this year.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fibonacci's Number:
So to sum up - it's all still up in the air

---

Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".

Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence. They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.

I believe these books give God a stomachache. He wants His people to be pure, to keep their minds free from sin.

If there were even a one percent chance these books were against the will of God, would you read them?

Doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, and that even sinners love those who love them?

Ahem.

P of G ... While your criticisms of the H.P. books, characters etc are allowable, your opening two sentences could be considered as a personal attack on the author.

As such they fall under the Ship's 10C's prohibition against attacking the person rather than the issue.

They may also be libellous (?slanderous?) and thereby open the Ship to legal action. I shall take advice on this point and may remove the offending passages later.

Please note!

Host Mode <DEACTIVATE>

Added later - Please see my post further down this thread

Edited by TonyK to link to subsequent 'Host'
post

a) JKR a personal friend of yours then?!

b) If you don't like the books and feel that you should not read them, then that's fine. That's your choice. But surely it's better not to dwell on them. For someone who hasn't read them and feels they are unGodly, you know alot about them and post about them quite alot. Without wanting to be rude, maybe it's time to start dealing with your own relationship with these books prayfully rather than worrying about other peoples' ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:

J.K. Rowling is a hack.

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No. Whatever else you may say about her, you have to admit that she is a good writer. This has nothing to do with the morals she may or may not espouse.

quote:

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Her morals are ambiguous.
Her characters lie, steal, break rules, make fun of overweight people, cheat, put self above others, seek revenge, practice divination, and swear. The children's best friend is a drunk. The kids who are good are painted as sticks-in-the-mud.

---

Her characters are human. Her characters are realistic. The only sinless person there has ever been is Jesus. To portray the characters in these books as sinless would be false; people would recognise it as such and would not have any respect for the books or characters.

quote:

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Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".

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Someone can be "good" without being perfect. Harry`s methods may sometimes leave something to be desired, but he is trying to do the right thing. (And remember that a lot of the time Harry is fighting against a system that favours the bad guys.)

quote:

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Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence.

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Not that much, really. Violence only really occurs at the major climaxes of the novels, and is generally instigated by the baddies. (And remember that in the world of Hogwarts, a broken leg is a lot less serious than in real life, and can be mended very quickly.)

quote:

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{QB]
They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.

I believe these books give God a stomachache. He wants His people to be pure, to keep their minds free from sin.

If there were even a one percent chance these books were against the will of God, would you read them?
[/QB]

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That would mean that there was a 99% chance that they were in the will of God, so yes, I would. Otherwise I might be missing out on something that God wanted me to know!

quote:

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[/QB]
Doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, and that even sinners love those who love them?

When Harry spares Pettigrew's life he is sorry later, rather than being rewarded for his mercy. Yet the kids are commonly rewarded for lying and stealing, when there should be stern consequences.[/QB]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Mrs Tubbs:
For someone who hasn't read them and feels they are unGodly, you know alot about them and post about them quite alot.

---

Now hang on there. Earlier on in this thread, people got slammed for disliking Harry Potter without having read the books.

While I here exert my God-given right to disagree with both his and your opinions, I have to admit that Poet of Gold has read at least one of the HP books (more than I've managed. Life's just too short), and as such has an informed opinion, albeit one that doesn't tally with several other peoples' here.

quote:

---

Her characters lie, steal, break rules, make fun of overweight people, cheat, put self above others, seek revenge, practice divination, and swear. The children's best friend is a drunk. The kids who are good are painted as sticks-in-the-mud.
Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".

Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence. They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.

---

quote:

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While I here exert my God-given right to disagree with both his and your opinions, I have to admit that Poet of Gold has read at least one of the HP books (more than I've managed. Life's just too short), and as such has an informed opinion, albeit one that doesn't tally with several other peoples' here.

Now. Here's the rub. Poet of Gold has the same amount of knowledge as you. He has a different opinion. I suspect that now your personal cases have been stated, there is little point in continuing a Pythonesque 'yes it is'/'no it isn't' discussion, since those reading the thread, having both sides of an equally informed argument, can be relied upon to make their minds up, if they haven't been made up already.

---

I seem to remember that in previous posts PofG said he hadn't read the books and had based his view of them from what he'd read about them from other sources. If that's an incorrect understanding, then I do apologise.

But, I do stand by my comments that if you something really bothers you, then dwelling on it isn't really very healthy ...

P of G,

I have discussed my earlier remarks with fellow hosts and an administrator.

It is felt that your opening comments probably do not open the Ship to legal action - so I unreservedly withdraw that point.

With regard to the 10C's violation concerning attacking the issue, not the person - I still feel that the comments violate the spirit of the Third Commandment.

In a much earlier post I had not at that time read the books. As of now that situation/status has changed. I wanted to see for myself.

I do not spend a lot of time thinking about them, but right now the movie is being advertised on TV, over the loudspeaker at the store, and most any other place I look. It fills me with grief to think children might be influenced to serve a deviant power instead of God.

I did not say that I believed there would be a 99% chance it would please God. If you mow your lawn tomorrow, will it please God? He lets you be free to mow it when you think it is right. It is of small importance when compared with bigger issues of the heart. What I said was, if there were a chance, even a chance this was displeasing to God, and that avoiding it did no harm, would you do it anyway? If avoiding lemons when you are allergic to them does you good, and if there is a 1% chance that there is lemon in that pie, do you take the risk and eat it anyway? This is what I mean by a 1% chance of displeasing God. Some things you know displease God, such as the things listed in the Bible's Ten Commandments:

Don't have any other gods.
Don't make idols.
Don't take God's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath.
Honor your parents.
Don't kill.
Don't steal.
Don't commit adultery.
Don't falsely accuse someone.
Don't covet.