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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Universalism: The case against
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I have been drawn to universalism, and yet have always thought the problems huge, and so I want to be a devil's advocate.
Basically, I would argue that, nice as it sounds, the idea that we will all get to heaven irrespective of our actions on earth is so completely at variance with the teaching of Jesus that acceptance of it implies that Jesus' teaching is not authoritative in this matter.
I accept that most universalists do not teach a free ride. A popular belief would have hell become purgatory for all; taking the words of Jesus about "not being freed until you have paid the last penny" literally. Obviously I think this is clinging to a straw when set against all the Dominical saying about destruction and eternal punishment and separation.
If this is a dead horse then so be it, but I for one would like to debate whether one can be a christian in a meaningful sense (which we could debate) and believe that all are saved.
[ 28. June 2014, 09:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Does free will mean anything if you cannot chose not to be saved? Or is the concept that "all are saved" not different from the concept that "all can be saved"?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Does free will mean anything if you cannot chose not to be saved?
Do the omnipotence or grace or love of God mean anything if mere human beings can force God to abandon them to death and hell, after he has already chosen not to?
Those who God has chosen sooner or later freely choose God. There is no logical contradiction there.
We do not know how big the number of the chosen is. Some think it very small, some think it includes everybody. A bit of selective Bible erading can find support for both ideas.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The arguments for and against universalism are obvious. With Anteater, I see very little scriptural evidence in support of universalism. Scripture as a whole points towards annihilation over eternal torment or universal salvation (at least it seems to me). However, in the end, I'm an agnostic when it comes to what happens to those who die outside the Church. They may suffer eternal torment. They may cease to exist. They may spend some time in Purgatory. They may go directly to Heaven. I pray for the salvation of all of humanity. The Nicene Creed mentions only judgment and resurrection nothing about eternal damnation. The Athanasian Creed is a different story.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
BeesWax Altar:
I can see the attraction of agnosticism but it can be a cop-out. We are so often told that instead of arguing theology, we should simply follow Christ, and in terms of love of the outcast etc this is non-controversial, although we're not that good at it.
However, Jesus spent a lot of his time giving fairly strong warnings about future judgement, so we have to decide whether this is part of his ministry that we should follow, both individually and as a church.
As it is, as regards the churches I've been in, it is not the done thing to mention the J word, much less the H word. It's simply not what we do (in the C of E). YMMV and if you are in a conservative evangelical church it probably will.
Our Vicar, who I greatly like, said in a Lent group, that we need to see Jesus' stern saying in the light of the fact that he was dealing with people who were rather satisfied that their religion gave them a get out of hell free card. As if the church today was much different.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I'm TEC. I mention hell and judgment with some regularity. I say I'm an agnostic because I really don't know. Jesus tells us to make disciples. The Church should be trying to make disciples but not everybody comes to Christ. What happens when they die? I just don't know.
Atheists believe that when they die they return to dust and there is no afterlife. Hard for anybody to complain if when they die God allowed them to turn to dust and cease to exist. Many Eastern religions have as their goal and end to the cycle of birth and rebirth. Again, annihilation gives them what they want as well.
The question comes down to free will and grace. I don't have nor do I need the answer. To the extent that it is unclear perhaps it is unclear for a reason.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Oops, for some reason there are two of these. Here are the two answers from the duplicate thread, now closed:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I am what I call a "legal universalist". I believe that all people are legally saved, because Jesus bore the punishment for all people (and yes, I accept a form of the penal substitutionary view of the atonement). But being legally saved does not mean that the experience of salvation is wonderful for every person. Evil is a spiritual reality manifested through the will, and no amount of legal acceptance will force an unrepentant person to willingly and happily embrace the love and mercy of God. So the reality of the love of God becomes 'hell' for that person.
Quite a number of people have objected to this view, by saying that no one - no matter now evil - could be tormented by the love of God, because love could never torment anyone. I find that argument bizarre in the extreme. What is evil, if it is not a deep-seated contempt for the love of God? A truly evil person hates mercy, and feeds on the suffering of others. The proud person will find it hideous to bow down in worship to any being, God or otherwise. Why would an arrogant and conceited person feel comfortable in a place where all people are equally special, and he is no more special than anyone else? How could such a person feel peace in a place where the very people he spent his life despising and persecuting are now utterly loved and valued by God?
Hell is nothing to do with God being sadistic or over-judgmental. Hell is simply the experience of the reality of God (the God of love) in the life of the evil, unrepentant person. In one sense, you could say that such a person is "damned to salvation". I am sure many people would prefer oblivion to that!
**
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
whether one can be a christian in a meaningful sense (which we could debate) and believe that all are saved.
Thus we hit the nub. Can one believe something that is false and still be a christian?
If the answer to that is yes then orthodoxy becomes a necessary criterion for salvation.
I am an annihilationist and so would view universalism as being untrue, just as much as I would the idea of purgatory. That doesn't mean that someone who believes in those things is, by default, not a christian.
Some here would disagree with me, as I am sceptical about the historicity of the virgin birth. I don't actively disbelieve it, but I don't affirm it as a core part of my faith.
In support of my view I could cite several passages, but probably the most obvious are Romans 9 and Revelation 20.
So what passages might the universalist cite in their favour as well as providing a consistent exegesis of those cited above to show why an annihilationist viewpoint is an incorrect interpretation?
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
ken ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) and ALL are chosen.
It's Life Of Pi: What story do you prefer?
It's a walk in the park.
As I walked across the park a couple of months ago I thought, 'What would happen if I didn't notice that I'd died'. My walk would continue. And Someone would join me. And we would continue to walk and talk until all things were resolved. I would be healed in and by the process.
It's the end of Tree Of Life.
[ 20. March 2014, 20:20: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
I have been a "hopeful universalist" for years, in that I believe that all who yearn for and seek God will ultimately find Him/Her. This presupposes (in my mind, at least) that God has, at the same time, been seeking for them!
Admittedly, the Biblical evidence for universalism is scarce; there are several verses and passages that suggest the possibility of it, but the weight of Biblical teaching seems to lie on the side of a conclusive damnation for the impenitent, perhaps with ultimate destruction of both soul and body at the end (annihilationism).
The problem I have with classical universalism is that it begs the question, What is love? If God is going to "turn the screws" on everyone and reconcile them, even if it takes aeons to do it, that seems more coercive than loving --- and if love is manipulative, then it isn't really love at all.
[ 20. March 2014, 20:31: Message edited by: WearyPilgrim ]
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm a "wish it were true" universalist--which I suppose is no universalist at all. I just don't think God will overrule human free will if it remains adamantly, eternally opposed to him throughout eternity. And if that isn't possible, it isn't free will, is it?
Free will is real, and comes with real consequences, or it isn't free will. Every mother of a teenager knows this and shudders. (How tempting to keep my kid in a cocoon by removing all chance of him choosing wrongly!)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There's nothing coercive about a walk in the park.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
The question assumes a belief in heaven and hell as places we go to when we have died. If you think of heaven and hell as picturesque ways of talking about our relationship with God here and now - many people do this, saying that eternal life begins today, for example - then what does it mean to be a universalist? Or not?
Clearly, not everyone is in heaven right now. Perhaps no one is, and perhaps no one's life is complete hell, however familiar that phrase is. So does universalism just mean insisting that every path taken can, eventually, lead to God?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If you like. I do.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
So what passages might the universalist cite in their favour as well as providing a consistent exegesis of those cited above to show why an annihilationist viewpoint is an incorrect interpretation?
The Romans passage tells us what St.Pul thought and Revelations is the vision of someone who had probably ingested some ergot, so I don't particularly feel the need to be consistent with either.
So, for a start, there's this:
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (I John 4:7)
So that covers quite a lot of people.
Then there's the judgement of the sheep and the goats:‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:40)
Then there are the parables such as the prodigal son, the lost sheep and the lost coin, suggesting God will go out of His/Her way to rescue the lost.
Next, there's this: IMHO people who reject the Church because of any or all of the following: - all the terrible crimes committed in the name of religion
- abuse of clerical privilege
- perceived and/or actual hypocrisy
- failure, as they see it, to live out the message of the gospel (e.g. bishops blessing battleships, the wealth of the church in a world where people are starving, etc.)
- the difficulty of believing apparently 'essential' points of doctrine[*
are not rejecting God; they are actually embracing Justice and Charity and Truth – embracing God. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, as the zero-century preacher said.
And then there's this: how are all the loving and lovely people in Heaven going to be in bliss, if people they have loved, or even liked a bit, are suffering the torments of the damned? And can their love be greater than God's? Because the thing is that we are made – all of us – in the image of God, which is surely where the capacity to love (amongst other things) comes from. How can that image be cast into Hell? So only those who have manage to totally excise or extinguish that essential core - so that nothing remains of a person who can either love or be loved - can be truly 'lost'.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think some simple words stand out for me: "Whoever believes shall not perish..."
Put those will other words of Jesus, "Whoever does not believe is condemned already." and you get a pretty simple statement of the necessity for personal faith in order to be brought out of judgment.
Where is the justice in annihilation?
Everyone who disbelieves the Gospel believes in annihilation anyway and is perfectly happy with it, so it doesn't seem to be any great judgment on the wicked.
I would love all to be saved just like that but that does indeed suggest that the love of God simply demands its own way and it also suggests that God winks at our sin and act justly.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All were saved Tommy Cooper style from the beginning. The outworking has taken 14 Ga since and has a way to go.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All were saved Tommy Cooper style from the beginning. The outworking has taken 14 Ga since and has a way to go.
No.
All were atoned for from the beginning.
All are condemned from the fall.
All who believe are redeemed.
All who remain in unbelief remain in condemnation.
What is "14 Ga"?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All were saved Tommy Cooper style from the beginning. The outworking has taken 14 Ga since and has a way to go.
Where's the justice in God saving the wilful perpetrator of the holocaust, alongside his victim?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I certainly don't want to give the impression that this is about doctrinal point ticking. It's more about how you understand Jesus, who is not only a saviour but also a teacher.
And I would say that from the recorded words of Jesus, we are forced to believe that he believe that judgement, which includes the reality of possible damnation, are vividly held beliefs which are frequently preached in very plain terms.
I would have to be open to the argument that I've misread the gospels, but I really find that hard to believe as it is mentioned so many times. Admittedly to the self satisfied, most of the time. And the nearest to a wider view that does have some sayings in its favour is that abject poverty in this life leads to blessing in the next.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Mudfrog
...that does indeed suggest that the love of God simply demands its own way and it also suggests that God winks at our sin and act justly.
I've never really understood this, Muddy. I'm not even sure what "winking at sin" even means, in this context. God doesn't "wink" at sin, he deals with it. Completely. Absolutely. By forgiveness. By restoration. At no-one's volition but His own. How is that "winking?" Just because we fallible humans are obsessed with a blame culture that demands punishment doesn't mean that God is so obsessed.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The other side to forgiveness is justice. There must be consequences of sin - and there must be personal consequences for our personal sin.
Winking at sin is where God says 'I know you've sinned, I know you're not repentant but hey, I am full of love, so I'll just forget it ever happened - just come on in and we'll say no more about it. No, no, walk this way - you'll get used to it, I'm quite nice really...'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
If I am saved, it will be through unmerited grace, and so I would do well to have no attitude or opinion except hope for anyone and everyone.
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Refraction Villanelles
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The other side to forgiveness is justice. There must be consequences of sin - and there must be personal consequences for our personal sin.
Winking at sin is where God says 'I know you've sinned, I know you're not repentant but hey, I am full of love, so I'll just forget it ever happened - just come on in and we'll say no more about it. No, no, walk this way - you'll get used to it, I'm quite nice really...'
But all Christians believe (in essence) that God 'winks' at their sin. All they need to do is say sorry, and bam! the sin is gone. No personal consequences; all dumped onto Jesus instead.
None of us want to get punished for our crappy deeds. That's the point.
I think the idea that universalism must necessarily mean that God ignores justice / consequences of sin is false. There are many forms of universalism.
Yes, if judgement day consists of God saying "don't worry about it, in you all go!", then you'd have a point. I've never encountered a universalist that sees things that way, though.
You might as well argue that the criminal justice system ignores justice / consequences of crime, because, in the end, most criminals get released from jail.
Universalists believe in ultimate salvation of all. It's the ultimate bit that allows space for consequences, justice, reconciliation, righting of wrongs etc. etc.
In terms of the bible, you can justify annihilation, damnation and universalism easily by picking out verses. The bible teaches all three. It's the big picture view of the bible that pushes me towards the latter being the ultimate, final state of creation. I think we'll have to go through a lot of annihilation and damnation first, but ultimately, we'll get to universal reconciliation.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
And I would say that from the recorded words of Jesus, we are forced to believe that he believe that judgement, which includes the reality of possible damnation, are vividly held beliefs which are frequently preached in very plain terms.
Some thoughts:
- The people group Jesus was speaking to in this context is almost always the religious. Which should give us religious folks pause for thought.
- Is damnation necessarily eternal? (we've had debates on the meaning of aionios/eternal here before). If it's not eternal, then it does not contradict the idea of ultimate reconciliation.
- Is judgement day primarily a criminal or civil style judgement? If it's the former, it's a very individual process. If it's the latter, it's as much about social justice, restitution, and recognition for the wronged, as it is justice for the perpetrators. How would Jesus' contemporaries have seen it?
- Is judgement day and damnation language figurative or literal, or both / somewhere in-between?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All were saved Tommy Cooper style from the beginning. The outworking has taken 14 Ga since and has a way to go.
Where's the justice in God saving the wilful perpetrator of the holocaust, alongside his victim?
I think the problem is that according to classical evangelical theology, the former can "pray the prayer" and get in, and the latter's for the flames because he was not a Christian.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
14Ga means, presumably, 14 billion years, or the period of time since the Big Bang.
Martin, do try to be less obscure. And feel free to correct my guess - which of course I shouldn't need to make.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Maybe there are people who don't WANT to be in the eternal presence of God. Granted, I don't believe in Hell as the furnace which the nuns told us about as kids. But eternal separation from God and the saints? Maybe people choose where they want to go.
As I understand it, Swedenborg preached something along these lines.
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I just don't think God will overrule human free will if it remains adamantly, eternally opposed to him throughout eternity. And if that isn't possible, it isn't free will, is it?
I agree. I just don't believe that a single human soul which is so utterly without love that it will remain adamantly, eternally opposed to God throughout eternity exists.
We are all corrupted and sinful. Some a lot more than others. But none of us is completely and totally devoid of love.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's the justice in God saving the wilful perpetrator of the holocaust, alongside his victim?
There's a little thing called repentance...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Maybe there are people who don't WANT to be in the eternal presence of God.
God as they think He is? Yes, lots of them.
God as He really is? I'm not so sure. Partly because I'm not entirely sure that I know how He really is, and partly because if even half of the things Christians say about how Great and Wonderful He is are true then why would anyone want to be elsewhere?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Mudfrog
The other side to forgiveness is justice. There must be consequences of sin - and there must be personal consequences for our personal sin.
That depends pretty much on your definition of justice. If the end of justice is, as it were, two hurting people rather than one hurting person, then that seems to me to be a pretty negative outcome. Fortunately, the overwhelming picture of justice as we read it in the bible is one of restoration, of putting the wrong right, rather than of punishing the wrong.
And, of course, as has been mentioned, the whole basis of PSA is that we don't have to bear the consequences of our personal sin. I don't hold to PSA as I think it's moral nonsense, but not for this reason. About this, it's on the button!
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Where is the justice in annihilation?
Nowhere. Its a vile anti-Christian idea that makes out God to be the most foul and evil thing imaginable. No-one should tolerate that heresy for a second. It makes out the unchosen and unsaved to be nothing at all, less than nothing, not even a smudge on our comfortable eternities.
Inexplicably some Christians seem to think that it gets them out of the moral problems of contemplating their own friends and relations in hell. I can't easily get my mind around how unimaginative and dry you'd have to be to fall for that one. "Oh don't worry that your Dad or your wife or your child are unsaved - they don't actually exist". How can anyone be so thick as to fall for that?
Its the ultimate in self-satisfied smugness, a sort of collective solipsism. We, the saved, the chosen, we are real people with eternal life. All those zombies out there, all those spear-carriers, those cardboard cutouts, they don't count. It doesn't matter what happens to them. You don't have to feel bad about them because they aren't real.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Justice works all ways. It's blind. It compensates, restitutes, ALL for their broken lives. First.
Why does a Jewish baby resurrected to paradise need justice in any other regard? Or their mother? Why do they need to see anyone punished for anything?
Why does anyone? Why WOULD anyone in paradise?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's the justice in God saving the wilful perpetrator of the holocaust, alongside his victim?
Its not justice. Its grace. Unmerited favour.
The wrath of God is satisfied, as it says in Romans 5. Would you rather it wasn't? Do you actually take pleasure in the idea of bad people being hurt? Do you think God does?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I agree. I just don't believe that a single human soul which is so utterly without love that it will remain adamantly, eternally opposed to God throughout eternity exists.
You assume that the afterlife is like this life, and that you will be like you are now. If that were so, then indeed a merciful God would allow you to change your ways. But since scripture is unambiguous about eternal damnation, you can conclude that the afterlife is not like this life, and that you will not be like you are now. That is fairly clear from scripture anyhow, but additional evidence - even if indirect - is always welcome.
The deal we have is however quite simple: This world, here and now, is where we get to change and align ourselves with or against God. The next world is where the consequences of this will be realised as we live eternally with or without God. There is no de facto reincarnation to a second shot at glory. This really is it. No more, no less. Make your temporal choices, enjoy or suffer their eternal consequences. Your opinion on how "fair" this deal is is truly irrelevant, just as quite generally God has not consulted you on the design of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
We are all corrupted and sinful. Some a lot more than others. But none of us is completely and totally devoid of love.
Likely true, if only due to human limitation. It probably requires an angelic mind to become entirely Satanic. However, Christianity has never claimed that one has to be evil through and through to go to hell. Being guilty of a single mortal sin will do at the time of death - and you are entirely capable of committing a mortal sin and not repenting of it, while at the same time maintaining all sorts of loving relationships and doing plenty of good deeds. Quite possibly the latter will reduce the severity of your eternal punishment in hell, but they will not get you out of it.
What is of practical interest is what it takes to commit a mortal sin. In general, I would say that the ancients to early moderns were too pessimistic about how easy that is, whereas the late moderns are way too optimistic. The way sinning is often understood now, one would have to send God a formal declaration of one's unbending intention to sin, in triplicate and signed in blood, with negative character references and certificates detailing one's knowledge, before one is capable of committing a mortal sin.
I think the canon law obligation of confessing one's sins at least once a year has it about right. For most people there is a sufficiently large danger that they will commit one mortal sin per year that such a discipline is warranted. Like a prostate exam recommend for older men, this is not to say that everybody will be afflicted. But it does say something about the overall average likelihood, and the balance of imposing an obligation on the faithful vs. the risks involved.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Inexplicably some Christians seem to think that it gets them out of the moral problems of contemplating their own friends and relations in hell.
I'll settle for it getting me out of the problem of having to contemplate myself in Hell.
And as far as any of my friends or relations go, I do consider the utter cessation of existence to be a better fate than eternal torment without hope of escape. Who wouldn't?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Pure legalism. And you see through a glass very darkly indeed. I see light.
[ 21. March 2014, 10:49: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You assume that the afterlife is like this life, and that you will be like you are now.
Similar enough that we will be recognisable as ourselves, yes.
quote:
If that were so, then indeed a merciful God would allow you to change your ways.
Precisely.
It's not about fairness, it's about love. Love doesn't set deadlines, it is always ready to forgive. Always. Eternally.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
There doesn't have to be consequences for sin. There just doesn't.
If my son does something wrong I can choose to punish him or not. That doesn't mean he doesn't learn from his lesson though. It doesn't mean I can't point out what was wrong and he feels his own shame. In fact that's the best way.
When we die we will all go to Heaven. The capacity to love we all have as humans will draw us into Heaven like iron fillings to a magnet. We will have no choice, we will want to go in there. No one will refuse because it not in our nature, our nature is to love. We can bodily and wilfully (as in free will) supress it or divert it in this life, but after death, the body goes away with the brain and we are just that pure love which is drawn to the ultimate love... God.
Even Mr Phelps is there now in ecstatic, everlasting love, along with Bin Laden, Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Ghandi, Mother Theresa and Princess Diana.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's the justice in God saving the wilful perpetrator of the holocaust, alongside his victim?
Its not justice. Its grace. Unmerited favour.
Absolutely, but that doesn't exclude it being justice as well. And what Martin said.
quote:
The wrath of God is satisfied, as it says in Romans 5.
Think that's Stuart Townend, rather than Paul.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
If I am saved, it will be through unmerited grace, and so I would do well to have no attitude or opinion except hope for anyone and everyone.
If you are saved it will not be just by grace, it will be by grace through faith. That is a very important response by you to grace. Without your faith the grace is not applied.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... if even half of the things Christians say about how Great and Wonderful He is are true then why would anyone want to be elsewhere?
I find lots of comments on this thread helpful, especially this one. Yes, there are plenty of Bible verses which challenge universalism ... and yet I come back to two things.
One is about choice. If God offers us a choice between Heaven and anything that isn't Heaven, how could any healthy person who seriously thought about that choice make the wrong decision? (If we make the wrong choice because of something broken in us - such as rejecting a Heavenly Father because we had a bad relationship with an earthly parent - then wouldn't God's response be to heal us, not condemn us?)
The other is about justice. If God offers us this choice only during our lives (as IngoB seems to argue), then the choice is very unequally distributed. Some people live for 90 years; sadly, some people live for 90 months, or 90 days. Must we all (as Ingo B said) "change and align ourselves with or against God" during our lifetime, because "There is no de facto reincarnation to a second shot at glory" - if so, how is that just?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Similar enough that we will be recognisable as ourselves, yes.
That is true, but given that you are recognisably the same being as the baby Marvin, who had less cognitive ability than a dog, this is saying less than you think it does.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's not about fairness, it's about love. Love doesn't set deadlines, it is always ready to forgive. Always. Eternally.
Well, I do like your intellectual honesty. You did articulate your non-Judeo-Christian starting point most clearly in your first sentence there. Christians however are obliged to believe in fair love, and loving fairness, just mercy, and merciful justice - no matter how painful and incomprehensible the tension of human terms may become when describing God.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by deano
When we die we will all go to Heaven. The capacity to love we all have as humans will draw us into Heaven like iron fillings to a magnet. We will have no choice, we will want to go in there. No one will refuse because it not in our nature, our nature is to love. We can bodily and wilfully (as in free will) supress it or divert it in this life, but after death, the body goes away with the brain and we are just that pure love which is drawn to the ultimate love... God.
Get thee to the quotes file...
deano, I disagree with you on almost everything, but this pays for all!
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by IngoB
Christians however are obliged to believe in fair love, and loving fairness, just mercy, and merciful justice - no matter how painful and incomprehensible the tension of human terms may become when describing God. (my bold)
Reference? Justice is a biblical concept, but fairness?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The human description of God is Jesus.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
So what passages might the universalist cite in their favour as well as providing a consistent exegesis of those cited above to show why an annihilationist viewpoint is an incorrect interpretation?
The Romans passage tells us what St.Pul thought and Revelations is the vision of someone who had probably ingested some ergot, so I don't particularly feel the need to be consistent with either.
You may not be surprised to read that I disagree with your methodology there. Off-handed dismissal of the pertinent points is not an engagement with the issue.
If one applies the same logic to the rest of your post then one could say the 1 John passage merely tells us what the author of 1 John thought (whoever that may have been) and that Matthew was writing with an agenda so cannot be trusted as reliable source.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Passage citing is just SO pass'e.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Deano: quote:
When we die we will all go to Heaven.
So I would like you to tell me whether you believe that this is an accurate representation of the teaching of Jesus (in which case I would strongly disagree) or is this a belief arrived at from your conception of God, with no obligation to square it with the teaching of Jesus?
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's not about fairness, it's about love. Love doesn't set deadlines, it is always ready to forgive. Always. Eternally.
Well, I do like your intellectual honesty. You did articulate your non-Judeo-Christian starting point most clearly in your first sentence there.
"non-Judeo-Christian"? What??? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
It's "God is Love". Not "God is Fairness" or "God is Justice". If you think prioritising love over fairness is unChristian then I don't know what
quote:
Christians however are obliged to believe in fair love, and loving fairness, just mercy, and merciful justice - no matter how painful and incomprehensible the tension of human terms may become when describing God.
That quote was in response to a post of yours that said, and I quote "Your opinion on how "fair" this deal is is truly irrelevant". So when I said it's not about fairness, I was agreeing with you.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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