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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Universalism: The case against
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
ken ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) and ALL are chosen.
It's Life Of Pi: What story do you prefer?
It's a walk in the park.
As I walked across the park a couple of months ago I thought, 'What would happen if I didn't notice that I'd died'. My walk would continue. And Someone would join me. And we would continue to walk and talk until all things were resolved. I would be healed in and by the process.
It's the end of Tree Of Life.
Martin, this is amazing! This is how I feel things would be, also. In fact, I've dreamed about dying and "waking up" to Somebody there with me. A Someone who I have been longing for my entire life. What you wrote is profoundly comforting and true to my experiences of a loving God who wipes away all tears and makes everything new--including me. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Well, Dubious Thomas, if you really want to get there the long way round, and see the elephant,
Sorry ... not understanding what you're getting at here.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
On the other side, there are Christians who assert that God wants to give every human being eternal life, but can't, because finite decisions made by finite creatures thwart his infinite will.
What's your take on the third side where there are Christians who assert that God wants to give everyone eternal life, but doesn't want to impose himself on anyone against their will?
I see this position as a subtle variant of the wants-to-but-can't position: This is a God whose ability to save people is limited by the need to respect human free will. It boils down, again, to God's will being thwarted by finite and fallible human wills.
I can understand your point of view, but I think we disagree on the fundamental nature of free will. To me, it's not merely important, it's the very essence of our humanity and our individual identity. I believe that without free will, we literally would not have an identity and would not be human.
I think God has created a system where his will cannot be thwarted because his will is primarily that we decide for ourselves who we want to be, after which he makes the best of whatever decision we make. Given these beliefs, it makes perfect sense to me that he would not impose himself on us against our will because that would mean taking away our ability to choose who we want to be. On the other hand, I also believe that he does everything he can just short of imposing himself on us to convince/lead us to make the best choice we're willing to make (whether we believe in his existence or not).
quote:
It's also not a position that is especially compatible with the traditional Christian claim that the human will is (to some extent, at least) in "bondage" to sin. I guess I'm persuaded by the arguments of Augustine, Luther, and Calvin (among others). For anyone to be saved, God has to "impose himself [on people] against their will."
Hmmm, so are you espousing the traditional Christian claim, or have you assessed the human condition and found that you came to a conclusion in that regard that happens to coincide with the traditional Christian claim? Yes, God must find a way to thwart our natural tendencies to things like selfishness, arrogance, and pride, but I think he's come up with a system in which he actually uses our selfish interests to help us eventually discover for ourselves that there are better ways to approach life. But he does so without every going over the line between "helping" and "forcing."
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
ken and ALL are chosen.
It's Life Of Pi: What story do you prefer?
It's a walk in the park.
MartinPC's comment struck me second time around. I've borrowed it to start a new thread about the stories we prefer.
[ 23. March 2014, 06:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Beeswax Altar.
Did you see IngoB quote 'absolute truth' from words of Jesus? Or any New Testament reference?
You sound JUST like a YECist: I don't believe that Samuel actually relayed Love's instructions to commit genocide therefore I can't believe in Love incarnate.
Yeah, my fad will be as pass'e as yours is now in 1700 years I'm sure. What will yours be by then?
If you want to talk like an adult about examination and judgement in the culturally mediated figures of Jesus' speech, rather than a parent/child, any time mate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ooh, and The5thMary, I reckon we all get to walk together too. Looking forward to meeting you on the walk. Like the end of the other film I mentioned, The Book Of Life.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
It is relevant if it stops you triumphantly tossing Divine Revelation down on the table as if it were the ace of trumps.
It is the ace of trumps. In fact its the only card in the pack. We're trying to talk about the eternal creator God. Any argument not based on revelation is worthless.
And the only revelation we have access to is that recorded in Holy Scripture, which claims to both reveal and be validated by the life of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate.
Oh yes, so any argument can easily be settled by quoting from the relevant bit of scripture. Silly me, I should have realised. I wonder why these boards are here then. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Beeswax Altar.
Did you see IngoB quote 'absolute truth' from words of Jesus? Or any New Testament reference?
You sound JUST like a YECist: I don't believe that Samuel actually relayed Love's instructions to commit genocide therefore I can't believe in Love incarnate.
Yeah, my fad will be as pass'e as yours is now in 1700 years I'm sure. What will yours be by then?
If you want to talk like an adult about examination and judgement in the culturally mediated figures of Jesus' speech, rather than a parent/child, any time mate.
Please, I've met many ageing hippy priests who believe what you now believe. They embrace every theological fad that comes down the pike pretending it's based on reason and scholarship. It's like they are charismatic only without the belief in a God who works miracles. The Episcopal Church is run by such priests. As Dubious Thomas points out, we are in rapid decline. Orthodox Christian churches will likely survive much longer than the fad embracers.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In other words, you persist in your straw man, ignoring the context, ignoring the narrative above and clinging to your early post-Christian old recurring fad with its false patina of establishment respectability.
Patriarchy. Wooden fundamentalism. Appeals to dead, spurious traditional authority. Taming, castrating Iron Age Jesus and putting a nice flaxen wig on Him and blessing killers in His name.
Babylon.
So no you don't obviously. Because you can't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Seriously, you think you've discovered some new truth that the Church has missed for centuries. You haven't. Evangelicals are just now discovering the stuff mainline churches have believed for over a hundred years. It isn't based on real scholarship but a preconceived ideology looking for some shred of evidence to suggest it wasn't invented out of thin air.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
what Jesus said to the Sadducees about the dead always being alive to God?
Where in the bible did Jesus say that to the Sadducees?
Do you mean the bit about there being no marriage?
That's the one mate - Luke 20:38
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Seriously. Of course we have. We always have. New truth is discovered in the Bible for the individual and for cultures all the time. Postmodernism is completely new, if you can call Kierkegaard and even Lewis new. I feel in me water that the Cappadocian Fathers were there too. Jesus certainly was.
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Love wins
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
It isn't based on real scholarship but a preconceived ideology looking for some shred of evidence to suggest it wasn't invented out of thin air.
That's quite a judgment to pass on a position held by scholars such as Gregory of Nyssa and William Barclay.
Here's the conclusion of Barclay's statement (which is heavily indebted to Gregory's exposition of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28):
quote:
I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Episcopal Church is run by such priests. As Dubious Thomas points out, we are in rapid decline. Orthodox Christian churches will likely survive much longer than the fad embracers.
So when will you been switching your affiliation to ACNA?
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Dubious Thomas. You MUSN'T leave your Episcopalian church OR here again. You can only leave the former if you can walk to another closer. That's THE rule. Mine. Always go to the church across the road. The trick is to change neighbourhoods.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
what Jesus said to the Sadducees about the dead always being alive to God?
Where in the bible did Jesus say that to the Sadducees?
Do you mean the bit about there being no marriage?
That's the one mate - Luke 20:38
That doesn't cancel out notion that the dead can be recreated at some future time.
Otherwise Jesus did not die on the cross and remain dead for 1 1/2 days.
Though it's irrelevant since God is outside time.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
It isn't based on real scholarship but a preconceived ideology looking for some shred of evidence to suggest it wasn't invented out of thin air.
That's quite a judgment to pass on a position held by scholars such as Gregory of Nyssa and William Barclay.
Here's the conclusion of Barclay's statement (which is heavily indebted to Gregory's exposition of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28):
quote:
I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.
Barclay's commentaries are dated. Gregory of Nyssa believed in the evil torturer God Martin !''+::/!/!//-. Gregory just believed hell didn't last forever. His theology took all of scripture into account. I imagine the Dubio-Thomistic God wouldn't even subject anybody to even a temporary Hell. No?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Beeswax Altar. You're starting to worry me now. Not that I'll admit that. I don't know why but I suspect you're charming me. I think you've noticed it's my weak underbelly.
The truth is I depressed myself at my inability to embrace you. The armchair warrior is alive and well.
The LAST thing I want in my VERY nice (Yorkie!), broad, safe, totally conventional, orthodox, ecumenical, pastoral Anglican vicar is bleedin' liberal trendiness! That's MY job and to be played close to my chest, keeping on board with everyone in a very full little life boat.
I want timeless liturgy and communion and stuff. There's a dangerous yearning for the charismatic in some, but I think we'll managed to stymie that.
We? The BLOKES.
Me and the missus are the token liberals, we CERTAINLY don't need any more.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Barclay's commentaries are dated.
You've just been denouncing followers of "fads," and now you dismiss Barclay's ideas because his commentaries are "dated," as if only the latest thing has any value? In any case, you're missing the point of my reference to Barclay: he was hardly a theological amateur (which Rob Bell could fairly be labelled, even if his arguments for universalism are valid), so your claim that belief in universalism lacks support in scholarship and reason is clearly incorrect.
To wit, Gregory of Nyssa. You can't dismiss him, so you change the subject:
quote:
Gregory of Nyssa believed in the evil torturer God Martin !''+::/!/!//-. Gregory just believed hell didn't last forever. His theology took all of scripture into account. I imagine the Dubio-Thomistic God wouldn't even subject anybody to even a temporary Hell. No?
To clarify, Martin and I are distinct individuals, not interchangeable ciphers for your theological animosity. In any case, I doubt that, when you cite a "classic" church figure's support for an idea, you agree with every other idea that person expressed.
As for the "Dubio-Thomistic God," you imagine wrong. But, given your use of the dismissive label, it's not a surprise.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Barclay's commentaries are dated because they are based in part on the fads of the time.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Barclay's commentaries are dated because they are based in part on the fads of the time.
Whose aren't?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I wish now, that I had framed the OP differently, so as to separate the question of what Jesus believed and proclaimed about judgement from the linked but separate question whether a Christian is at liberty to believe differently from Jesus.
I'm still totally at sea in trying to understand the recorded teaching of Jesus in such a way as to relativise the importance of what we do and believe in this life. To base this, as Barclay seems to, purely on the idea of God as Father being the only model to follow and then to extend that to mean Father of all men, seems to be out of touch with Jesus in so many ways.
But I agree that text swapping can be tedious because it's about the overall impression, which to me is plain. It reminds me of the friend that I have mentioned previously who could not accept that Jesus saw any problem with wealth. And this chap was highly intelligent and devout, no health wealth and prosperity nut.
Sometime we just see different things. Like Jesus didn't believe that it was vital to repent in this life if you want to be part of God's people. I just can't see it.
BTW a very worthy but slightly nutty friend of mine who is now a devout and vociferous universalist, has the fairly common doctrine that Jesus did believe it was vital to repent in this like . . . . to avoid purgatory. I.e. believe and be saved the easy way, or do WTF you like and be saved the hard way.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
If you want an account of universalism that is compatible with Our Lord's teachings it looks like this.
Jesus warned us about Hell and Damnation.
If you put a sign on a cliff, saying "do not stand on the edge of this cliff, you will fall off" and people refrain from doing so, you are a public benefactor.
If it is pointed out that many people do stand on the edge of the proverbial cliff it is, or ought to be the case, that the Church prays for them.
The Bible tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.
But it's not obvious. Jesus warns us about hell because it's real. If we think all people might be saved its not because we think Jesus is wrong about hell but because we have faith that the love of God might overcome human sinfulness. At the end of the day, I think universalist hope is, just that, hope. Yea, though he slay me yet will I put my trust in Him. I might be wrong. But I think God loves everyone, even me. And that might be enough.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
It is relevant if it stops you triumphantly tossing Divine Revelation down on the table as if it were the ace of trumps.
It is the ace of trumps. In fact its the only card in the pack. We're trying to talk about the eternal creator God. Any argument not based on revelation is worthless.
And the only revelation we have access to is that recorded in Holy Scripture, which claims to both reveal and be validated by the life of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate.
Oh yes, so any argument can easily be settled by quoting from the relevant bit of scripture. Silly me, I should have realised. I wonder why these boards are here then.
No. The argument starts when we read the relevant scriptures.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Twice Jesus assures us that Sodom will receive a MORE bearable judgment, along with the other cesspits of Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon than the most moral Jewish towns of Bethsaida, Chorazin and Capernaum, which will nonetheless receive bearable judgment.
What does one have to DO to get a final, irrevocable, unbearable judgment?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What does one have to DO to get a final, irrevocable, unbearable judgment?
Disagree with Beeswax Altar? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
IngoB, I found your list of Old Testament quotes quite wonderful. The vast majority of them can be used to support my own universalist theories!
I only need a single case of somebody being physically dead but still operating as a person to make my point. This is indeed evident from the verses I quoted. Whereas that the Psalmist will be saved is good for him, but does not tell us whether everybody will be saved. There's no support in these verses for universalism at all.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Which merely proves that proof by proof-texting is no proof at all. I think?
Well, I agree with that. I only use scripture as a rhetorical means around here these days. I think people who believe that the Christian faith - as far as propositional doctrine is concerned - can be established and maintained by and from scripture are naive, or if they participate in these boards or similar varied gatherings, manifestly delusional. For it is simply undeniable from experience here that many different and contradictory things can be read into scripture, and that arguing about that almost never gets anywhere.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The Bible tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.
But it's not obvious. Jesus warns us about hell because it's real. If we think all people might be saved it's not because we think Jesus is wrong about hell but because we have faith that the love of God might overcome human sinfulness. At the end of the day, I think universalist hope is, just that, hope. Yea, though he slay me yet will I put my trust in Him. I might be wrong. But I think God loves everyone, even me. And that might be enough.
Yea and amen! Thank you.
There was an American con-evo hymnwriter named John W. Peterson who, back in the '60s, wrote a song that I think expresses this in a very simple but moving way. I learned it in Sunday school nearly fifty years ago. I love it:
(REFRAIN, below, is after each stanza)
Stanza 1:
There will never be a sweeter story,
Story of the Savior's love divine,
Love that brought him from the realms of Glory,
Just to save a sinful soul like mine.
[rest of lyrics here, full text removed as per Ship policy]
This was never intended as a universalist hymn, but I sing it as such. How beautifully it celebrates the magnitude of the gospel!
[ 24. March 2014, 06:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
If you want an account of universalism that is compatible with Our Lord's teachings it looks like this.
Jesus warned us about Hell and Damnation.
If you put a sign on a cliff, saying "do not stand on the edge of this cliff, you will fall off" and people refrain from doing so, you are a public benefactor.
If it is pointed out that many people do stand on the edge of the proverbial cliff it is, or ought to be the case, that the Church prays for them.
The Bible tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.
But it's not obvious. Jesus warns us about hell because it's real. If we think all people might be saved its not because we think Jesus is wrong about hell but because we have faith that the love of God might overcome human sinfulness. At the end of the day, I think universalist hope is, just that, hope. Yea, though he slay me yet will I put my trust in Him. I might be wrong. But I think God loves everyone, even me. And that might be enough.
I'll buy that.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
WearyPilgrim (and everyone else), please don't post full-length quotes of hymns, poetry or other material by others.
Ship policy is to err on the side of caution with regard to copyright issues, and we much prefer original content by posters to long swathes of others' content.
If others' content is important to the point you wish to make, either post a link to it or provide a short summary. Thank you for your cooperation.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
The Bible tells us that God wants everyone to be saved.
But it's not obvious. Jesus warns us about hell because it's real. If we think all people might be saved its not because we think Jesus is wrong about hell but because we have faith that the love of God might overcome human sinfulness. At the end of the day, I think universalist hope is, just that, hope. Yea, though he slay me yet will I put my trust in Him. I might be wrong. But I think God loves everyone, even me. And that might be enough.
I'll buy that.
Yes, me too. Is universalist hope significantly different from traditional Christian hope? In the end, it is all "just" hope. One of the great virtues.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Good for Nothing
Apprentice
# 17722
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Posted
Would it not have been better if God had either not created human beings at all - or had made us all perfect, like Jesus? After all Jesus, they say, was perfect and had free will.
Posts: 20 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Jun 2013
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good for Nothing:
Would it not have been better if God had either not created human beings at all - or had made us all perfect, like Jesus? After all Jesus, they say, was perfect and had free will.
Say, rather, Jesus had free will because he was perfect. We are not perfect, so our will is not free, as Paul argues persuasively, in Romans 7
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Good for Nothing
Apprentice
# 17722
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Posted
Jolly Jape has not answered my question - "would it not have been better . . .?"
Posts: 20 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Jun 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The answer is no to the first part and it's impossible for the second.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Good for Nothing
Apprentice
# 17722
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Posted
But if God made Jesus perfect and free, why could he not have made other, if not all, human beings perfect and free?
And by answering 'no' to the first part of my question are you really saying that the eternal bliss of some human beings somehow justifies the eternal torment of others?
Posts: 20 | From: Lancashire | Registered: Jun 2013
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good for Nothing:
if God made Jesus
I think your problem is here. God didn't make Jesus; God is Jesus.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No one gets eternally tormented.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No one gets eternally tormented.
I agree.
What kind of spiritual apparatus would God have to create to make that happen? What kind of God would put their mind to such a thing? Not one that had an ounce of love for the souls involved. I couldn't do it - so how could God?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
No spiritual apparatus needs to be created. All that is necessary for hell to exist is for a person to turn his back on God, willingly, knowingly, and of free choice, and stay that way forever. To do so is to cut oneself off from the source of all joy, comfort, peace, and life, and willingly choose the opposites. Anything rather than humiliate oneself by repenting.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No spiritual apparatus needs to be created. All that is necessary for hell to exist is for a person to turn his back on God, willingly, knowingly, and of free choice, and stay that way forever. To do so is to cut oneself off from the source of all joy, comfort, peace, and life, and willingly choose the opposites. Anything rather than humiliate oneself by repenting.
Yes I see this. But I don't see it happening after death, when God will be seen with no veils - no glass darkly. THEN repentance, however small, in small steps to full life with God.
If God doesn't allow such then She's not worth the paper She's written on imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Gildas:
quote:
But I think God loves everyone
This is, for me, quite a thought provoking thought, since it seems to breathe the essence of the Christian belief that God is Love, but at the same time leaves me with doubts, which I am more than happy to have removed. A similar thought is that God is Father to all human beings.
Does the Bible and Church actually say this? It sounds like it should be a rhetorical question, but is it? And if it does, what concept of Love does this bring? Traditionally there is the love of benevolence and the love of complacency, or fellowship. I can accept, obviously, that God wishes the good of all. He always did, and yet in many cases this has no effect on the individual and there is, and can be, no relationship.
So what is going to happen to that person after death? God's love haven't apparently failed up to now, what can he do? Turn it up higher? That makes no sense.
To me, all these views of post-death repentance, are predicated on the idea that God will reveal to the person after death, something previously unrevealed and which leads the person to repentance and the (previously dismissed) love of and belief in God and Jesus. What else could change the person? Punishment? I doubt anybody would say that would work.
Just to recount an incident with a very earnest christian friend. I made the comment that today, very few christians believe that you have to repent and believe in this life to be saved. "I do" she confidently said, "100%". OK, what about those who haven't heard? "Ah, well . . . ".
Turns out she believes God will somehow reveal Christ to them at the moment of death, or something like that. Well I wouldn't mind that. It actually beats a lot of rather stuffy sermons!
And if you don't have something like that, I don't know what is going to make people change.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
For most people I know, the revelation that he actually exists could be the crucial point. I know I don't know that for sure.
I've known many people - indeed, most people I know are in this category - who reject God because they don't think he's real, or have little confidence that he is. I've known none who reject God because they do think he's real but don't really fancy it much.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've known many people - indeed, most people I know are in this category - who reject God because they don't think he's real, or have little confidence that he is. I've known none who reject God because they do think he's real but don't really fancy it much.
I don't know if this counts or not, but I can think of at least one person, actually someone I first talked to on the Ship, who told me he wasn't going to pursue whether or not God existed because if God did, then God wasn't someone he wanted to know. So he definitely wasn't sure about God, but it seemed he was an anti-seeker because he didn't fancy God much.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've known many people - indeed, most people I know are in this category - who reject God because they don't think he's real, or have little confidence that he is. I've known none who reject God because they do think he's real but don't really fancy it much.
I don't know if this counts or not, but I can think of at least one person, actually someone I first talked to on the Ship, who told me he wasn't going to pursue whether or not God existed because if God did, then God wasn't someone he wanted to know. So he definitely wasn't sure about God, but it seemed he was an anti-seeker because he didn't fancy God much.
There's always going to be one, isn't there? But given the God some people seem to believe in, I wouldn't blame him - if you've been convinced that there's either no God, or the genocidal, eternal tormenting in Hell God, then I can understand seeing that as a bit of Hobson's choice. If I became convinced that God really was the genocidal one then I'd probably try to get onto his good side by whatever means possible, but that's because I'm a tremendous moral coward; I'd have a great deal of respect for the person who'd rather curse him to his face and burn.
[ 24. March 2014, 13:58: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Gildas:
quote:
But I think God loves everyone
This is, for me, quite a thought provoking thought, since it seems to breathe the essence of the Christian belief that God is Love, but at the same time leaves me with doubts, which I am more than happy to have removed. A similar thought is that God is Father to all human beings.
Does the Bible and Church actually say this? It sounds like it should be a rhetorical question, but is it? And if it does, what concept of Love does this bring? Traditionally there is the love of benevolence and the love of complacency, or fellowship. I can accept, obviously, that God wishes the good of all. He always did, and yet in many cases this has no effect on the individual and there is, and can be, no relationship.
So what is going to happen to that person after death? God's love haven't apparently failed up to now, what can he do? Turn it up higher? That makes no sense.
To me, all these views of post-death repentance, are predicated on the idea that God will reveal to the person after death, something previously unrevealed and which leads the person to repentance and the (previously dismissed) love of and belief in God and Jesus. What else could change the person? Punishment? I doubt anybody would say that would work.
Just to recount an incident with a very earnest christian friend. I made the comment that today, very few christians believe that you have to repent and believe in this life to be saved. "I do" she confidently said, "100%". OK, what about those who haven't heard? "Ah, well . . . ".
Turns out she believes God will somehow reveal Christ to them at the moment of death, or something like that. Well I wouldn't mind that. It actually beats a lot of rather stuffy sermons!
And if you don't have something like that, I don't know what is going to make people change.
For me I don't think the issue is that God would force people to change (I don't think he does) but rather that there would be a limit to the time during which we can change (ie, our mortal lives). Traditional Christianity has taught that in Hell people are cut off from God's grace forever (by their own choosing), so they are incapable of repenting (since that would require God's grace). I am ok with negative consequences in this life and the afterlife for people who reject God's love, but I just can't wrap my mind around a belief that God would ever say, "Time's up, I won't offer you the grace you would need to repent anymore because you obviously don't want it."
I don't believe that Christian belief needs to be found clearly in Scripture, though, so I may not have much of a dog in this fight - I mean discussions on this thread.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But given the God some people seem to believe in, I wouldn't blame him - if you've been convinced that there's either no God, or the genocidal, eternal tormenting in Hell God, then I can understand seeing that as a bit of Hobson's choice. If I became convinced that God really was the genocidal one then I'd probably try to get onto his good side by whatever means possible, but that's because I'm a tremendous moral coward; I'd have a great deal of respect for the person who'd rather curse him to his face and burn.
This was the point I was trying to get at when I described what Beeswax Altar has so affectionately described as the "Dubio-Thomistic" God (who happens to be the major rival to the "Beeswax God" worshiped by Father Altar).
I find myself incapable of believing in the "God" of traditional Western Christianity, whom you quite aptly describe as "the genocidal, eternal tormenting in Hell God."
I'm one of those people who arrogantly or stupidly (the two generally go together!) thinks that, if this being really is God, I could and would "curse him to his face and burn"--joining Huck Finn in Hell, where he is roasting for eternity for failing to turn in a runaway slave, as any good, White Southern Christian should have done! (Just ask your ca. 1860 Southern Baptist pastor! ... or, for that matter, John Henry Hopkins, the Episcopal Bishop of Vermont, who wrote a tract in defense of slavery!)
But, faced with this cruel monster, I'd probably shrivel up and cry.... which would reinforce "the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures" (Westminster Confession, Chapter III).
BUT, to repeat myself, I just CANNOT believe that "the genocidal, eternal tormenting in Hell God" is God. If there is a God worthy of the name, he/she MUST, of necessity, be better than this. That fact is actually supported by the folks who insist that they believe in "the genocidal, eternal tormenting in Hell God," but who HOPE that he isn't like that, after all. They recognize that God COULD be better, and really HOPE that he is. But, seriously, can people really believe in a God who could ultimately disappoint their deepest hope? Is such a being "God"?
No, I don't believe it. So I'm going to stick with the "Dubio-Thomistic" God! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've known many people - indeed, most people I know are in this category - who reject God because they don't think he's real, or have little confidence that he is. I've known none who reject God because they do think he's real but don't really fancy it much.
I don't know if this counts or not, but I can think of at least one person, actually someone I first talked to on the Ship, who told me he wasn't going to pursue whether or not God existed because if God did, then God wasn't someone he wanted to know. So he definitely wasn't sure about God, but it seemed he was an anti-seeker because he didn't fancy God much.
There's always going to be one, isn't there? But given the God some people seem to believe in, I wouldn't blame him - if you've been convinced that there's either no God, or the genocidal, eternal tormenting in Hell God, then I can understand seeing that as a bit of Hobson's choice. If I became convinced that God really was the genocidal one then I'd probably try to get onto his good side by whatever means possible, but that's because I'm a tremendous moral coward; I'd have a great deal of respect for the person who'd rather curse him to his face and burn.
Well, if that God exists and is the God of the Bible, then every knee will bow and every tongue confess and give praise to God. In other words, those who judge God now will worship God on judgment day. At the same time, if eventually every knee bows and every tongue confesses, then perhaps hell will eventually be empty.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No spiritual apparatus needs to be created. All that is necessary for hell to exist is for a person to turn his back on God, willingly, knowingly, and of free choice, and stay that way forever. To do so is to cut oneself off from the source of all joy, comfort, peace, and life, and willingly choose the opposites. Anything rather than humiliate oneself by repenting.
When I read things like this written by people I know to be "Protestants" (who adhere to Sola Scripture), I always want to ask, "What's you Scriptural evidence for this? Where does Scripture teach these things?"
So, if I may, I'd like to ask those questions of you, Lamb Chopped.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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