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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A church for men
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hereweare:
I have observed though, that in the RC Church the male/female ratio seems more equal than the CofE. Not sure what it means though!
In my experience playing tourist (about once a month, maybe more), while the priesthood of the RCC is exclusively male, the butts in the pews are significantly more female than male. As are those in leadership positions that don't need a collar.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
We read the daily offices at 8:30am and 5:30pm, with a congregation of between one and about six people - there are usually about 4 of us in the evenings. The only women present, ever, are clergy (the curate and/or myself). Is there something particularly masculine about Common Worship Evening Prayer? Is it about the words, the setting, the style - or just the timing?
Weekday evening Eucharists also have a larger proportion of men in the congregation - although for smaller overall numbers - than the main Sunday morning services. It can't all be about the lie-in can it?
Personally I can't imagine anything worse than a church service designed by some sort of committee in order to attract people like me - unless it was a congregation full of people like me. Real people vary a lot and I've always worked on the assumption that most men were nearly the same as real people.
Real people usually have a number of factors to consider in their choice of service. These factors will include the stuff 'we', as a church, can do something about - welcome, preaching, music, style of worship - and stuff we can't control - on-street parking, it's the church my Mum went to, distance from home - and that combination of factors will be unique for each of us, I think. I'm not sure that gender is the most important defining issue here.
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
So, with that in mind, what do you think has changed in the church that is supposedly such a turn-off to men? Why was church more tolerable, in your thesis, for men in my dad's generation or in mine than in yours?
LC, you make good points, and I generally agree with you. The only answer I can think of to the above is the seeming ubiquity of (faux) emotionalism and sentimentality and compulsory touchy-feelies (such as holding hands during the Lord's Prayer, or huddling around the altar holding hands during the EP). I know a lot of men (including me) who are just turned right off by that stuff.
[ 19. January 2011, 23:33: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Is this really a crisis in the church, or is it just another attempt for zero-sum social conservatives to take a sideswipe at gender equity -- "Everything was fine until those uppity women took all the special jobs away from us!"?
Yeah, that's my thought too. When I hear "church for men" that almost always is closely followed by either John Eldridge or Mark Driskoll-- neither one of which has much that sounds like good news for women.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
Christian Vision for Men Is an organisation dealing solely with men's ministry, saying that "Over the last 20 years 38% of believing men left the church. In fact for men aged under 30, nearly 50% left in the same period of time."
I couldn't find anything snappy as to what CVM thinks the reason for this is, but I think it's broadly that there isn't much of an environment for men, who need to be given the chance to bond. Belonging can come before believing. ATST, all groups of people benefit from being and should be catered for.
Chorister probably has it right about the choir and the pub. The church I go to is having an evening in the pub/curry. Many men like the pub, you can have a chat and stuff. Connecting it with church is in my view a good idea.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
Christian Vision for Men Is an organisation dealing solely with men's ministry, saying that "Over the last 20 years 38% of believing men left the church. In fact for men aged under 30, nearly 50% left in the same period of time."
Those are impressive numbers, but are they any different for women?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
I don't have any very helpful answers, (certainly not to LutheranChik's very good questions), and part of the difficult is that we are dealing with general tendencies in each of the sexes (it is easy to let a small number of exceptions hide the general trend of behaviour). But it seems to me that the reason behind the low number of men in many congregations is that 'church' is seen as largely about relationships - relationships between an individual and God and relationships between the members of the congregation. The significance of relationships is there whatever the hymns and liturgy; it may be emphasized by particular styles of worship, but it is always there.
Women in general 'do relationships' better (certainly differently) than men, whether it is remembering the names of their children's friends, or keeping the Christmas-card list or whatever. From the "good morning"s on the way in to the chatting over coffee afterwards, church is largely about these relationship matters, and many men would prefer a situation that involved more 'doing something'.
If a notice went out that a church would be engaged in two activities, one a coffee morning with a chance to sit in someone's house and chat, the second taking secatuers, saws and spades to clear some waste-ground behind the church so it could be used for outdoor activities, I think very many men would opt for the latter, even though it could be described as 'work' compared with the 'leisure' of the former. It is 'doing something' and suggests that the men's presence is wanted and needed which, I think, men tend to react to positively.
Were things better fifty or a hundred years ago?. Well, it was a different world then, and church attendance more a matter of social obligation, in addition to a result of personal belief. But at times I think there was also an aspect for men, as 'head of the household' in maintaining the respectability and position of the family. Going to church was, in this sense, 'doing something' for which their presence was needed.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
I've been interested in this subject for some time, but one unfortunate result of that is that I've lost all perspective on my own difficult relationship with church. I've read (too) many times about the idea that church has been feminised and that it is too feelings-oriented etc. and now I can't tell if that's why I don't feel comfortable in most church services. I prefer my quieter, easier home group for building relationships.
The honest reality is that Sunday morning coffee doesn't work for me because:
1) I've got stuff to do at home
2) remembering 100+ names for 10 minutes every seven days is really difficult
3) smiling through conversations I won't remember while shrill and unruly children make listening difficult isn't my idea of a good time
There is a very good chance that I am unloving and I need to change. I need to be transformed into His likeness and love these people.
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I have often noticed (within wider society, never mind just church) that women's relationships tend to centre around conversation whereas men's relationships tend to centre around shared activity. Real-life example: my wife and I both spent some time with old friends recently. My wife and her friend did so by having a chat on our sofa, my friend and I did so by playing a few games of pool at the pub.
ISTM that church tends far more towards the first of those ways of relating to each other than the second. Maybe that's part of the problem?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
It can't all be about the lie-in can it?
Why not?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Interestingly, church youth groups (back in the days when more teenage lads went to church) used to have table tennis and pool tables available for use. I bet there are some still lurking, dusty and unloved, in the nether regions of the parish room store cupboard. Perhaps it's time to dust them off so the men can bring along a few cases of beer and thrash the hell out of the other dads. And perhaps bring along their sons for a game, as well.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
In trying to ascertain what it is that may make my church more man-friendly, if indeed that is the issue here (I'm still not convinced it is)...one difference we do have at our shack is that our pastor enjoys doing manly-man things on his own time -- taking cars apart; riding motorcycles; building stuff; volunteering as a local first responder. He's also a metal sculptor, so he's often welding. He's joked about his "garage ministry," involving neighborhood guys seeing him with his head under a car hood in the garage and coming around to talk to him about Deep Subjects while they're changing hoses or tightening bolts or whatever. (He once told me, in regard to these impromptu pastoral conversations, "Don't ever underestimate the inner lives of the men in our church.")
We don't have many white-collar professionals of either gender in our church; most of the congregation are people who work with their hands for a living. So perhaps the fellows in our neighborhood find our pastor more accessible, more able to speak their language and relate to them, than some non-handy, socially intimidating MDiv/DD who seems to have nothing in common with them.
Even if I'm on to something, I'm not convinced that this is an argument against females in church leadership positions. (Which I truly believe many people want to be true.) My DP has a similar rapport with the guys at our church...it's kind of cute to see her, during coffee hour, surrounded by men who want to talk sports or autos or home repairs with her -- because she's able to talk about those things to them. And she's "safe" for them to talk to without The Wife (either of them!) getting angry.
All of which is perhaps my circuitous way of observing...maybe this isn't about gender, but about helping both men and women feel socially "safe" and comfortable in a church situation; having church leadership that lives in the same world, so to speak, as the rest of the congregation.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Unjust Stuart
Shipmate
# 13953
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Posted
To misquote Dean Acheson *
Men have lost an empire and have not yet found a role.
* not a Dean in the same way as Dean Swift...
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Forty years long was I grieved with this generation and said.
Posts: 281 | From: Hendon. Finchley. Around there. | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hereweare:
I have observed though, that in the RC Church the male/female ratio seems more equal than the CofE. Not sure what it means though!
It means that in England the Roman Catholics are still to some extent an ethnic church, and participation in church is part of normal participation in the community or subculture.
As the children and grandchildren of Irish, Italian, Polish, or whatever immigrants come to think of themselves as English then they start reverting to English levels of church attendence.
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
1. Presumably you think that there was a more healthy male-female ratio in church participation twenty or fifty or one hundred years ago.
No, absolutely not, it has been like this since at least the Middle Ages.
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
... there isn't much of an environment for men, who need to be given the chance to bond. Belonging can come before believing.
(a) no it doesn't, not for lots of people, and the insistence that it does might be one of the things that's wrong with the churches these days. I'd rather people were Christians than that they came to church. And when people are converted and become Christians they often take to going to church.
(b) being middle-aged, male, and having a full-time job I meet lots of men all the time anyway. I don't need to go to church to meet men. And not being gay I think I'd rather be doing less bonding with blokes and more with women, to be honest.
(c) I don't think it is the presence of women in church that puts men off. Really.
(d) church isn't a social club. If it tries to be one it will probably be a bad one. And real social clubs - and trade unions, and sports clubs and all sorts of voluntary associations - have been losing members and going bust anyway. And pubs are closing in their thousands all over England.
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps it's time to dust them off so the men can bring along a few cases of beer and thrash the hell out of the other dads. And perhaps bring along their sons for a game, as well.
Why do you assume the missing men are all dads? More than a third of adult men are single. And loads of those that aren't either have no children or have children grown up and looking after themselves, or have only daughters.
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Log in as root and type reboot. That's worked on all the Linux flavours I've tried since the early 90s. Maybe I was just lucky...
I'd passed that stage about an hour before I made the post - I'd got through to "turn it off, reseat the disks and all cables and turn it on again" and was about to go on to "reconfigure the BIOS".
It works now. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) But it took about ten goes ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 20. January 2011, 14:14: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
The honest reality is that Sunday morning coffee doesn't work for me because:
1) I've got stuff to do at home
2) remembering 100+ names for 10 minutes every seven days is really difficult
3) smiling through conversations I won't remember while shrill and unruly children make listening difficult isn't my idea of a good time.
The honest reality is that Sunday morning coffee doesn't work for me because people don't seem to talk much at all at church and I quickly get bored and lonely and frustrated.
I know if I go to the pub I am far more likely to have a conversation, both with people I know and people I don't.
And for what its worth the conversations are more likely to touch on emotional or spiritual issues than ones in church.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Contrast two different Bible study groups.
One sits in a rapt circle, waiting for the priest to tell us what to think, and is horrified as a group if anyone challenges anything. It is two-thirds older female.
The other actually has discussion and banter, loathes the "set books" with questions neatly laid out in stifling order, and poses questions as much as it finds answers. It is over half male.
Both my wife and I prefer the latter, BTW. It isn't JUST a gender thing. You have to have some form of involvement that doesn't bring up the Sunday-schoolmarm stifling any questions.
This strikes me much more as a generational thing than a gender one. How many of those 'older females' are widowed? I've noticed a similar dynamic when we've had parish lent/advent groups. The attendees from our sister church tend to be the older women (many of whom I think are widows) and they much more have an expectation of the vicar as teacher and them as pupils, whereas those of us who are younger have much more a seminar model in mind with vicar as facilitator.
quote:
And the guys who do come also take more part in the Sunday service. But they won't take part if there is too much insistence on the exact liturgical form at the expense of the meaning and feeling of the service.
It depends on the guys -- some of the greatest liturgical pedants I know are men.
We're lucky at our church that we do have a pretty even balance and in fact our Tuesday evening services tend to be slightly more male than female. But I tend to see people as people not as men or women so don't ask me what works better for one than the other. Though I think there is a worry trend back to gender stereotyping in our culture at the moment.
Choirs are also an interesting point -- unfortunately boys tend to give up on choirs when girls are allowed as equals -- because singing then becomes sissy. This is a flaw in our English speaking society (I say English speaking because Welsh speaking attitudes to singing are very different)*
Carys
*How many halls of residence housing about 250 students could have a hundred strong choir with a 50/50 male female split?
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Matter of fact, there actually already exists a concrete program of action designed to assist Christians in their quest for enlightenment (AKA, sometimes, "theosis"): it's called The Rule of St. Benedict, and it's about 1400 years old.
Obviously parts of it were meant to work on the problem of unrelated people living together in groups - but there is plenty there aimed at the individual and his/her soul. So the precedent exists, in fact, and it wouldn't be a strange idea to work out a Step-like program (which, BTW, also derives from Christianity) for churches.
Because the bizarre arguments we're having in religion these days just ain't the way, IMO. I'm getting fed up with the church myself, and am on the verge of leaving - and I'm one of those people who are kind of hard-wired for spirituality! And I'm fascinated by the Bible and love the Book of Common Prayer and the beauties of the liturgy.
So if the church seems like dullsville to me, imagine how it appears to people not already involved in it....
[ 20. January 2011, 14:39: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
He's joked about his "garage ministry," involving neighborhood guys seeing him with his head under a car hood in the garage and coming around to talk to him about Deep Subjects while they're changing hoses or tightening bolts or whatever.
It's no joke, it's exactly what I'm talking about. Shared activity - in this case car maintenance. Most men I know find it far easier to talk about Deep Subjects if they're doing something else at the same time.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
He's joked about his "garage ministry," involving neighborhood guys seeing him with his head under a car hood in the garage and coming around to talk to him about Deep Subjects while they're changing hoses or tightening bolts or whatever.
It's no joke, it's exactly what I'm talking about. Shared activity - in this case car maintenance. Most men I know find it far easier to talk about Deep Subjects if they're doing something else at the same time.
Ora et labora, baby. Ora et labora.
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps it's time to dust them off so the men can bring along a few cases of beer and thrash the hell out of the other dads. And perhaps bring along their sons for a game, as well.
Why do you assume the missing men are all dads? More than a third of adult men are single. And loads of those that aren't either have no children or have children grown up and looking after themselves, or have only daughters.
Dude, it would have been awesome to have played pool with my dad at church. Daughters need bonding time with their fathers too, yaknow.
(My daddy, btw, is awesome. And he has two daughters, and he taught us to play catch and work on car engines and solve differential equasions.)
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Many men needed 'a safe forum to work out what they think' in an environment in which 'they are able to swear' or express controversial views.
I know plenty of women who don't go to church for this reason. Myself included - although I do go to church sometimes, and I like my church, still I have yet to find a church where I can feel free to work out what I think and express controversial views and not have to be careful to make sure my language doesn't include words that some may find offensive. Surely it can't be just a male/female thing.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Choirs are also an interesting point -- unfortunately boys tend to give up on choirs when girls are allowed as equals -- because singing then becomes sissy. This is a flaw in our English speaking society (I say English speaking because Welsh speaking attitudes to singing are very different)
My guess is that it tends to be a flaw the world over. Or at least a fact. What do we gain with denial, hand-wringing, crocodile tears, and waiting for it to go away?
quote:
Originally posted by Lutheranchik:
Now, if you insist that this is a gender issue, try this: Kick the fellows out. Say, "Good riddance."
Something of the kind seems to apply in reverse, at least. Today there must be a thousand coed junior choirs for every boychoir remaining in Christendom, but some won't be satisfied until every last one has bitten the dust.
This campaign doesn't serve the cause of music. It doesn't serve the Great Commission or the cause of church growth. And I doubt that it even serves the cause of feminism. Show me a random secular boy who is attracted into a choir at age 8 or 9-- especially if (as tends to happen) he is eventually confirmed into the church and (as also tends to happen) remains an active churchman-- and I'll show you a young man far likelier to go through life supporting equal rights for women, among other civilized values, than his culturally deprived, unchurched, tone-deaf brother hanging out on the street corner. If we want such outcomes, it's just a question of ends and means. Do we?
How we can scratch our heads ad nauseum over attracting males into the church, while neglecting a tradition that has worked so effectively to this end for centuries, boggles my mind.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
I always like it when Alogon makes his point about boychoirs.
Seriously: it's a good one. (And they operate under a concrete program of action, too, interestingly enough, via disciplines taught and learned. I'm just saying.)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I always like it when Alogon makes his point about boychoirs.
Seriously: it's a good one.
Its a terrible one. Would you have a white choir for people who don't like singing with blacks?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I always like it when Alogon makes his point about boychoirs.
Seriously: it's a good one.
Its a terrible one. Would you have a white choir for people who don't like singing with blacks?
Actually, the voices are already - mostly - divided up by sex.
So sorry; that's not even close to being an analogy, let alone a good one....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Its a terrible one. Would you have a white choir for people who don't like singing with blacks?
If they're kids and the experience will promote racial equality in the long run, you bet.
For me the cause of music and that of church growth handily trump some kind of agenda to stamp out any and all single-sex groups on the asumption that they are unjust or evil. Sorry to disappoint you and be a neanderthal, but I think you have your priorities mixed up.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
There are girl choirs, too, you know, Ken. And men's choirs and women's ones, later on. I haven't come across many (actually, any) that operate out of a distaste for singing with the other gender.
There are boys' and girls' schools, too. Mens' clubs and womens' clubs. Outraged about those, too? Not me.
[ 20. January 2011, 16:57: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I always like it when Alogon makes his point about boychoirs.
Seriously: it's a good one.
Its a terrible one. Would you have a white choir for people who don't like singing with blacks?
Are whites' and blacks' voices so significantly different that you can tell the sound of a highly-trained white choir from a highly-trained black choir? There's a reason music is tabbed SATB and not ROYGBIV.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Are whites' and blacks' voices so significantly different that you can tell the sound of a highly-trained white choir from a highly-trained black choir? There's a reason music is tabbed SATB and not ROYGBIV.
It's a strange argument - although I suppose not so strange for little kids, when both boys and girls sing in (approximately? I'm not exactly sure) the same range.
Still, sex is way, way different than race in this case, because soon enough the voices of boys go haywire (as I understand it) and they have to drop out - or hang around with their voices all over the place - till they settle at some particular male voice.
And then of course the sexes just go in completely different directions after that - so sex/gender is actually a big factor in singing. Race simply isn't.
[ 20. January 2011, 17:55: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Tubamirim, if it were just a matter of having a concrete program to follow, like the 12 steps, then Alanon would have the same sexual breakdown as AA. And trust me on this, it doesn't. Despite the fact that, or so I'm told by those who know, AA meetings around here are about 50/50 male/female, and that therefore logically as many men as women must be affected by someone else's drinking, all the Alanon meetings I've been to have had a huge preponderance of female to male members.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Tubamirum, I think we're agreeing with one another.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Tubamirim, if it were just a matter of having a concrete program to follow, like the 12 steps, then Alanon would have the same sexual breakdown as AA. And trust me on this, it doesn't. Despite the fact that, or so I'm told by those who know, AA meetings around here are about 50/50 male/female, and that therefore logically as many men as women must be affected by someone else's drinking, all the Alanon meetings I've been to have had a huge preponderance of female to male members.
That's usually true about Alanon, you're right. But then, I was speaking in a more general way, and not necessarily to the male/female issue. (AA and Alanon do have some issues particular to them; these are groups for people in specific states of crisis. Whatever we might come up with would not have to address only those issues.)
IOW, I'm not trying to "solve" the issue with that suggestion. I'm really more interested in the general exodus from the church rather than the gender split.
I can't for the life of me think why the church can't get the point across that the life of spiritual seeking is - while often difficult (and that's actually a plus) - an exciting adventure. That we all have depths - that living itself has depths - that we haven't really begun to explore, and that we ought to be getting around to that at some point. I just don't think it's doing a very good job in this area, that's all....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Tubamirum, I think we're agreeing with one another.
Yeah - I meant Ken's was a strange argument, not yours. Guess that wasn't clear, sorry....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Cheers.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
We're talking about worshipping God together, not setting up a social club.
Anyway the point of SATB is that they sing together, not apart.
But the main thing is I don't agree with the idea that mem avoid church because its full of women. Which some here repeat again and again.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway the point of SATB is that they sing together, not apart.
You've missed the point. SATB is a four-part mixed choir. But there are also TTBB choirs, and women's choirs whose initials I don't know, and so forth. Each has a different sound, and it's based in part on the gender/sex of the singers. There is nothing at all analogous based on race or nationality or anything else other than age and gender.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Ken wrote: quote:
But the main thing is I don't agree with the idea that men avoid church because its full of women
I don't agree with it either, but who is arguing that?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
We're talking about worshipping God together, not setting up a social club.
And exactly how are we prevented from worshipping God together by having boys' choirs and girls' choirs? I can't see why this could possibly be a problem for the life of me....
[ 20. January 2011, 22:21: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
IME choirs are hard for men because:
a) Puberty takes you from being a treble to being a tenor or bass and the change is decidedly aharmonic.
b) Tenor and Bass roles are harmony roles which rarely get the melody. You have to learn to read music and listen well to be good at it. Once you are away from the melody it's so easy to go off.
c) Singing against so many sopranos and altos is hard.
I say this as a bass choir member.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Choirs are also an interesting point -- unfortunately boys tend to give up on choirs when girls are allowed as equals -- because singing then becomes sissy. This is a flaw in our English speaking society (I say English speaking because Welsh speaking attitudes to singing are very different)
My guess is that it tends to be a flaw the world over. Or at least a fact. What do we gain with denial, hand-wringing, crocodile tears, and waiting for it to go away?
But my point is that another culture (Welsh speaking Wales) doesn't have this stigma about boys/men singing. Now some of that may be because of male voice choirs, but there are also a lot of mixed choirs and so boys don't give up when girls join. I don't think that there are many Welsh speaking all boy or all girl choirs in Wales -- at that age they sing together afaik.
Singing is part of Welsh medium culture in a way that it isn't for many English speakers.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
IME choirs are hard for men because:
<snip>
b) Tenor and Bass roles are harmony roles which rarely get the melody. You have to learn to read music and listen well to be good at it. Once you are away from the melody it's so easy to go off.
That's my experience too. If you try to form a mixed-voice choir and say anyone can turn up, then all the women with low technical ability become sopranos, and the men without technical ability have nowhere to go.
ETA: and if you insist on a certain minimum technical skill, then altos and basses tend to dominate because they don't have nasty high notes, and people who might be good singers with a bit of practice and experience don't have a chance to discover their talents.
[ 21. January 2011, 10:00: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
At least in my own little neck of the woods, that's not so true. I personally don't know that many stay-at-home moms.
Who said anything about "stay-at-home moms"? Even for couples where both partners are working housework and childcare still fall more frequently to women than men, a trend that's exacerbated by the "traditional family structure" I mentioned above. In other words, for a lot of men Sunday is a day off work. For their wives, Sunday is a day when they're expected to work another job.
The problem with this argument, at least from what I observed at my former church, is that most of the work of putting-on of services and the teaching of church school, to say nothing of all the other activities engaged in by the church, is also done by women. They still do all the setting-up and cleaning-up.
I remember getting to church very early one snowy Sunday, thinking I'd help shovel walks, and finding ladies there well ahead of me, ironing paraments for the altar and pouring grape juice and cubing bread.
So it's not much of a break from household chores(though it is a change of venue).
If church wants to attract more men, they should install more television sets tuned to major games, and set out cheese & crackers and peanuts instead of multi-color cookies.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
In my church we have a monthly Pub Theology group. Not exclusively for men, but there's nothing like the lure of a pint and the numbers are about two thirds men. It's a good way to talk about faith issues in a relaxed environment and has helped some blokes on the fringe feel more involved. It has also proved a good event to bring unchurchy friends who want to talk about life issues in a faith context.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
In my church we have a monthly Pub Theology group. Not exclusively for men, but there's nothing like the lure of a pint and the numbers are about two thirds men. It's a good way to talk about faith issues in a relaxed environment and has helped some blokes on the fringe feel more involved. It has also proved a good event to bring unchurchy friends who want to talk about life issues in a faith context.
More and more I think it's a Good Thing to do things like this outside the churchy environment....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
More and more I think it's a Good Thing to do things like this outside the churchy environment....
We sometimes have the barman and other pub goers listening in to discussion, and occasionally join us.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
In my church we have a monthly Pub Theology group. Not exclusively for men, but there's nothing like the lure of a pint and the numbers are about two thirds men. It's a good way to talk about faith issues in a relaxed environment and has helped some blokes on the fringe feel more involved. It has also proved a good event to bring unchurchy friends who want to talk about life issues in a faith context.
This sounds like a Good Idea- I would definitely be up for an evening arguing theology and drinking beer!
Mind you, I imagine it would require a critical mass of men in the church in the first place. Otherwise it might just be me sitting in the corner wth a pint, mumbling to myself about liturgy. (Hang on, that's not too different from what happens already... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
I suppose the question can be split here: (a) what do we do to get more men into Church in the first place? (b) How do we cater to the spiritual needs of the men who are there anyway who don't seem to be enthused by the flower-arranging circle?
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
In my church we have a monthly Pub Theology group. Not exclusively for men, but there's nothing like the lure of a pint and the numbers are about two thirds men. It's a good way to talk about faith issues in a relaxed environment and has helped some blokes on the fringe feel more involved. It has also proved a good event to bring unchurchy friends who want to talk about life issues in a faith context.
This sounds fantastic, Uriel! I might see if I can get something similar going with my church. Like you say, it's a great way of showing non-Christians or lapsed attenders that the Christian community is healthy and good to be a part of.
On the broader point, do you all think it's fair to say that many men don't like the 'sit down, listen well and be good' atmosphere in a lot of church services? Lots of men have energy, drive, passion and a desire to compete, and church activities don't often provide an outlet for these traits, do they? Marvin the Martian and LutheranChik's comments about men preferring shared activity rather than 'just' talking sound bang on the money for me.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It starts to get tricky when there are as many different types of men as there are women - one of our best flower arrangers, for example, is male. Perhaps the women are just better at continuing to do what they've been told and, when they were younger, they were told to go to church.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
We have a discussion group in the pub once a month too; I can't say as I've noticed more men than women go, though.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
In my church we have a monthly Pub Theology group. Not exclusively for men, but there's nothing like the lure of a pint and the numbers are about two thirds men. It's a good way to talk about faith issues in a relaxed environment and has helped some blokes on the fringe feel more involved. It has also proved a good event to bring unchurchy friends who want to talk about life issues in a faith context.
Funny, our Pub Theology meetings tend to be two-thirds women. But this is Portland, where good beer is not so much a drink as a lifestyle choice.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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