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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A church for men
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
In point 6 above, "What constitutes appropriate gender roles..." should read "What constitutes perceived appropriate gender roles..." I'm certainly not arguing for these wretched things, just pointing out their existence.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Ken wrote quote:
Almost certainly the teaching was biased to favour boys. As it still is in most schools - teachers seem very very bad at realising they are doing it. Sexism is so ingrained in the ways most of people think that when we believe we are bing fair we are nearly always favouring boys over girls.
WTF? You wouldn't like to explain the evidence and logic behind this string of assertions at the expense of the teaching profession, would you?
This was originally a thread about why men were not involved in something. What the hell is the use of a one-sided test that can only possibly detect one kind of bias - that being the opposite to that discussed? If certain teaching can favour boys (and I'm sure it can, and has been done), then other teaching can favour girls. Any real-life test that claims to be even-handed needs to be able to address either sort of bias. A one-sided test will only enable you to see one kind of bias - 100% of the time! And the other type will always be absent. Just fancy that!
Just as well, then, that I think teaching styles are a minor part of all this.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In terms of comedy entertainment, screwing up because of incompetence or foolishness is usually equated with "being the lead character". (Doing something in a smoothly competent manner usually isn't all that funny.) Given that understanding, complaining that men have more buffoonish roles in contemporary comedy is essentially complaining that there are too many men in leading comedy roles.
Yeah, like there's such great scope for character development in one-off newspaper cartoons and one-minute television commercials.
By your same argument, there were too many women in leading comedy roles fifty years ago. So you're trying to tell us that despite a generation of feminism, the relative power of men has since increased? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have found out more about this while preparing a sermon:
The Diocese of Oxford did some work on the shortage of men who attend church and Tear Fund Tear Fund found that 35% of men left the church in last 20 years. Things that put many men off include:
Sentimental hymns – especially a worship song that includes the words: Jesus is my boyfriend
emotionalism and compulsory touchy-feely stuff
especially my pet hate – where you’re expected to hold hands and look into the eyes of others during the grace - cringe
‘church' is seen as largely about relationships
between an individual and God and between the members of the congregation.
Women in general 'do relationships' better (certainly differently) than men,
whether it is remembering the names of their children's friends, or keeping the Christmas-card list.
From the "good mornings on the way in to the chatting over coffee afterwards, church is largely about these relationship matters,
and many men would prefer a situation that involved more 'doing something'.
women's relationships tend to centre around conversation
whereas men's relationships tend to centre around shared activity;
a few games of pool at the pub
Above all, Christianity is seen as a religion for the weak
Church services are passive.
While women are allowed to need someone else in their lives,
to be a "True Man" is to be self-reliant.
There’s a men-only church called XY
They meet in a pub
Instead of listening to a preacher they argue, are allowed to swear
Any theology is linked to real life, like ethics in the workplace.
They say that, to be successful:
Don't hold it on a Sunday morning.
Provide food that isn't vegetarian or soup
Have hymns you can belt out
don't allow services to go over an hour
don't do coffee and gossip
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I can think of two churches I've attended whose congregations were around 50% male.
The points in common between these two churches (both Anglican) were:
- formal structure of worship
- flexibility of church activities, with new ideas suggested and trialled on a regular basis
- good choir, comfortable with singing anything from Tudor anthems onwards
- very competent organist
- church building used for local secular musical groups during the week as well as church groups.
I'm honestly not sure which of the above may be significant.
I suspect most men won't put up with services that are banal in style or content, whereas many women will, for the sake of meeting friends, having a sense of community, or involving the children. It doesn't necessarily mean that women like the services that way, just that they've possibly had more experience of making the best of slightly tedious social situations.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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QuietMBR
Shipmate
# 8845
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Contrast two different Bible study groups.
One sits in a rapt circle, waiting for the priest to tell us what to think, and is horrified as a group if anyone challenges anything. It is two-thirds older female.
And yet, at my church, the rote "pastor says" types are the mostly males who left to form their "own church" with said pastor. They appear to like being told how and what to think.
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"My Jesus would never be accepted in my church...the blood and dirt on His feet might stain the carpets." Todd Agnew
Posts: 298 | From: Middle Atlantic, USA | Registered: Dec 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I can think of two churches I've attended whose congregations were around 50% male.
The points in common between these two churches (both Anglican) were:
- formal structure of worship
- flexibility of church activities, with new ideas suggested and trialled on a regular basis
- good choir, comfortable with singing anything from Tudor anthems onwards
- very competent organist
- church building used for local secular musical groups during the week as well as church groups.
Church I've been associated with here that hits the 50% or more male mark is quite the opposite-- large mega-church, American evangelical happy-clappy. No organ, and no secular musical groups during the week, altho lots of church groups during the week.
Not sure what the common ground is.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I have found out more about this while preparing a sermon:
The Diocese of Oxford did some work on the shortage of men who attend church and Tear Fund Tear Fund found that 35% of men left the church in last 20 years. Things that put many men off include:
Sentimental hymns – especially a worship song that includes the words: Jesus is my boyfriend
Is there any worship song ever written that actually includes the words "Jesus is my boyfriend"???? Generally that's a term for the sappy lovey songs that sound like that, but I've certainly never heard any that went so far as to actually say it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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jerrytheorganist
Shipmate
# 4720
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Posted
This was in reference to a Jesus is my boyfriend song,, doesn't exactly fit anymore,,
Here's one I wrote as I was making fun of praise music one day in the church office. Enjoy.
OHHHH Jesus is my Boyyyy Friend,,, What a friend is he...
He thinks I am speeecial ,, What a friend is he..
He saved my soul from DARRRKNESSS covrs all my sinnnnnnnn. (YAYYYY)
Jesus is My BOY Friend ,,, WHAT A FRIEND IS HE.
[ 22. March 2011, 03:52: Message edited by: jerrytheorganist ]
Posts: 94 | From: Plainville, Kansas, United States | Registered: Jul 2003
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I should add that the two churches I mentioned above were from a limited sample; I've only included Anglican churches as I attended any other type far too long ago to recall the demographics.
(BTW, how would you work out that a "mega-church" had large numbers of men? Would you count as they came in? Or subtly introduce a song that required the men to stand for some verses and the women for others? Just curious, as I tend to avoid very large churches.)
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
(BTW, how would you work out that a "mega-church" had large numbers of men? Would you count as they came in? Or subtly introduce a song that required the men to stand for some verses and the women for others? Just curious, as I tend to avoid very large churches.)
Just a rough visual headcount, nothing official. Although they do often sing those songs that have the "men's part" and the "women's part" which does help you to hear how many men are present.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Invictus_88
Shipmate
# 15352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I have found out more about this while preparing a sermon:
The Diocese of Oxford did some work on the shortage of men who attend church and Tear Fund Tear Fund found that 35% of men left the church in last 20 years. Things that put many men off include:
Sentimental hymns – especially a worship song that includes the words: Jesus is my boyfriend
Is there any worship song ever written that actually includes the words "Jesus is my boyfriend"???? Generally that's a term for the sappy lovey songs that sound like that, but I've certainly never heard any that went so far as to actually say it.
It's also apparently impossible to find a recording of "Be Thou My Vision" that isn't all 'girlied up' with boyband Irish vocals, plastic emotiveness and those awful panpipes.
Strange times.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Dec 2009
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Okay, so I will admit that I just looked at this thread for the first time and didn't read through the whole thing in full detail, but I found an article recently that I feel relates to the subject at hand so I thought I'd post it here: The Church with Balls!
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I mean, don't you believe the church should have something relevant to say to them?
Yes, I do. What do you think that would be?
I'm the one saying it hasn't got anything relevant to say to them, remember? I'm interested in what you think the church has got that's so amazing they should be flocking through the doors if only they'd open their ears.
[ETA:] I mean, isn't that part of the problem here? People who are already in church are asking why others don't share their love of it. It's like they're saying "christianity is so amazingly wonderful, why doesn't everyone else want to be part of it?"
And I'm thinking, well I think railway photography is amazingly wonderful, but I don't expect everyone else to want to do it as well. It's just that religious peopole do expect that. It's like they find it hard to understand that perfectly normal people, with no particular reason to dislike the church, simply aren't interested.
So, (and I'm honestly asking here, not just trying to find a way to shove your friends into a church) do these friends of yours have spiritual lives at all? I fully accept the premise that a person can potentially live a fulfilled life on earth without ever delving into the spiritual realms, but my experience is that a good percentage of people want to know more about their own spirituality in some form or another.
I guess what I'm saying is that unless you met all your friends at the atheist club (which is cool, no judgment from me ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) then statistically speaking (from my experience) at least one of them must be feeling less than whole without a spiritual life. Of course they can have that sort of life outside of a Church... however, I inferred from your post that they don't attend any sort of worship anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.
That all said, what a church should be providing to get them in the front door is a way to experience God. For different people this may be a different thing, for some it's a rock concert and lots of miracles (I don't recommend this if your friends are as cynical as I am, or as you appear to be), for some it's good teaching from the Bible, and for others it's a good liturgy. For others it's other stuff. There are certainly a good number of churches that don't produce anything of value as well.
Personally, I spend the past 20+ years scouring through Protestant churches of all sorts searching for something meaningful to me, and never found it. I never got out of Protestant Church what 1.5 years of Orthodox liturgy has given me. I resonate with much of the article I posted above.
Of course, I don't know your friends personally, so I don't know what they'd want out of a church (if anything at all), but I suspect if any of them are curious about the realm beyond this one, then there is a church to suit them. That's not to say they can't look into other faiths as well, but the thread is about churches after all.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I suspect if any of them are curious about the realm beyond this one,
That's the thing. They're not. It's not that they vehemently refuse to believe that such a thing exists (well, one of them does...), it's just that they don't care whether it does or doesn't. They're perfectly happy just doing their work, playing their sport and drinking their beer. Sufficient to the day the troubles thereof, and all that...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I suspect if any of them are curious about the realm beyond this one,
That's the thing. They're not. It's not that they vehemently refuse to believe that such a thing exists (well, one of them does...), it's just that they don't care whether it does or doesn't. They're perfectly happy just doing their work, playing their sport and drinking their beer. Sufficient to the day the troubles thereof, and all that...
Well, that being the case then... I don't personally feel that it's the churches job to cater to those who have no interest in a noetic life. I believe that it's the job of the Church to provide a means for those who are interested to meet with God. So I guess what I'm saying is in as much as your friends are free from any obligation to attend church, I believe that the Church is equally free from any obligation to try and draw them in.
I still believe in Evangelism, but more as a tool to find those who are seeking God: not as a tool to guilt trip non-seekers into feeling obligated to fill a pew every Sunday.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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