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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Well, the grand jury decided there wasn't enough evidence to proceed to trial.
This is a space to discuss all aspects of the case, public and personal reactions, whether possible civil disturbance should affect a grand juror's decision, etc.
What say you?
[ 02. November 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I'm appalled, but not surprised. It wasn't a normal grand jury process, and I think the prosecutor got exactly the results he wanted. American cops have a license to kill young black men.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
How are grand jury verdicts decided? Do they have to be unanimous or is it a majority vote? If it is the latter I would be very curious to know the racial breakdown of that vote.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
How are grand jury verdicts decided? Do they have to be unanimous or is it a majority vote? If it is the latter I would be very curious to know the racial breakdown of that vote.
I'm told it need to be a majority (possibly 3/4 to indict) and the grand jury was 9 white to 3 black. I'm also told, however, that the jury is largely an irrelevance to a process led and controlled by the prosecutor - the prosecutor can get an indictment for pretty much anyone (proverbially up to and including a ham sandwich) but police officers are very rarely indicted.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm less distrubed by the grand jury decision than by the general assumption that it must be wrong.
Killing and murder are regularly treated as synonyms. They're not.
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
From the other side of the world this looks like a recipe for disaster.
To decide in an open court that the police officer is not guilty (or at least not proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty) is at least a transparent decision with reasons. To decide in a closed session that there is no case to answer on any charge whatsoever invites suspicion of a stitch up , especially in such a famous case.
Who is going to run a sweepstake on how many hours elapse before the next person is shot in that town as a consequence? The victim could be a another black civilian (my bet) or possibly given the awful state of gun law in America, a police officer and then a civilian.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
orfeo--
I'm going to try to keep this short and simple. We've tangled on this sort of thing before, and I really don't want to again. So I'm just going to say this, and bow out of any further debate on this particular point.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
I don't know what exactly happened, and whether or not the officer should've been brought to trial.
For hundreds of years, people of African ancestry have been treated horribly here. Some of the manifestations have changed, but it's still awful. And much of that involves bad encounters with law enforcement and the judicial system. Cases like this one happen frequently, AIUI, and aren't appropriately dealt with. So there are the horrors of each individual case, plus cumulative recent injustice, plus injustice going all the way back to slavery.
That's the context. That's why people are inclined to think this was wrongful killing and wrongly handled.
It may not make sense across the miles, but it's true.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh, I know that's the reasoning. It's still a reasoning process that makes me deeply uncomfortable.
Let me say a few additional things:
First, it's perfectly possible that the decision MIGHT be wrong. But deciding that requires the ability to look at the evidence, in a fairly careful manner.
Second, I do think that decisions like this should be open to scrutiny and question. In that respect, trials are a lot better than grand juries. I won't claim to fully understand the grand jury system as there is no such thing here (or AFAIK anywhere besides the USA).
(2A) I will say, though, that it seems a bit odd to be talking about the jury as if it's somehow a rubber stamp for a decision not to prosecute, which some commentary is doing. As far as I can see, the purpose of a grand jury is to make a decision whether a prosecution can proceed, and that it's only relevant when someone does want to prosecute.
Third, this issue does not just arise in a racial context. I see it everywhere. I've seen it in my own city. There is a simple reasoning process that I see repeatedly: that someone died, and the death was tragic, so therefore the death must be someone's fault.
This reasoning process is rarely articulated, but it is present over and over again. "Fault" isn't even always criminal. Sometimes it's about suing. Just last week, our High Court decided a case where a mentally ill man killed his friend after being discharged from hospital, and the deceased's relatives were trying to sue the hospital. They lost. The hospital did not owe the kind of duty necessary for the suit to be successful.
It is entirely possible for someone to be responsible for a senseless, tragic death. But that responsibility requires proof. It is also entirely possible for a senseless, tragic death to occur for which no particular person is to blame, or for which the dead person is just as much to blame as anyone else. The reason I get so uncomfortable about these cases is that the latter possibilities never seem to be where the majority opinion ends up. The finger always points somewhere.
There is also the danger of confirmation bias: of noticing every time a white person kills a black person and "gets away with it" but not noticing (or not noticing as much) every time that (a) a white person kills a black person and doesn't get away with it, (b) a white person kills a white person, or a black person kills a black person, or (c) a black person kills a white person and "gets away with it".
[ 25. November 2014, 07:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm less distrubed by the grand jury decision than by the general assumption that it must be wrong.
Killing and murder are regularly treated as synonyms. They're not.
I would expect such a decision to be made in open court with the prosecutor doing their best to seek a conviction while the defence does their best to seek an acquittal. I find it very hard to believe that the case was so open and shut that there could be no charges - which is what the grand jury (or more realistically the prosecutor) has apparently decided. Given the prosecutor's strong ties to the police it is not out of line to suggest some degree of bias at play here.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
But how does a grand jury get to hear the case in the first place, if the prosecutor does not wish to prosecute?
That's what I'm struggling to understand. I'd appreciate someone explaining it for me.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Because the DA's faking it. We in the UK have a long history of Public Inquiries which take years to come to the conclusion that what's plain as a pikestaff didn't actually happen, the police and the security services didn't through incompetence or deliberate action act against the public, government ministers knew nothing, and all those documents that ought to exist have mysteriously disappeared and well, who knows?
"See? I tried, but you the people didn't want the officer to be prosecuted. Now quit whining and burning shit down."
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think the decision was wrong because, as I understand it, the Grand Jury is there to decide whether there is a case to answer. From what I have seen, there is a case to answer - which doesn't mean that the officer is guilty. It means that there is sufficient evidence to indicate he might be guilty.
Of course, I might be wrong on a) the US legal system and b) the situation.
The shooting of a 12YO for waving a toy gun around yesterday tells me that there is something very wrong there, and maybe an indictment would have signaled a change. As it is, it SEEMS like white officers can kill black youths without fear of recrimination. If that is my impression - right or wrong - then I am sure many others experience the same.
Impressions are not facts, But most people riot based on impressions and beliefs, not facts. Governments are brought down based more on belief than fact.
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Blog
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Impressions are not facts, But most people riot based on impressions and beliefs, not facts. Governments are brought down based more on belief than fact.
This is true.
But this is also what shits me. Politics is largely a fact-free zone. I am naive and idealistic enough to hope that the court system still has an interest in facts. I am even naive and idealistic enough to believe that politics, and public debate in general, should be interested in facts, but I'm well aware that it usually isn't.
Because facts take time. And nobody has any.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm less distrubed by the grand jury decision than by the general assumption that it must be wrong.
Killing and murder are regularly treated as synonyms. They're not.
Killing could be accidental. That could be incompetence on the part of a surgeon that results in a patient's death.
Murder is deliberate. An example would be aiming a firearm at an unarmed teenager and discharging the weapon half a dozen times. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm less distrubed by the grand jury decision than by the general assumption that it must be wrong.
Killing and murder are regularly treated as synonyms. They're not.
Killing could be accidental. That could be incompetence on the part of a surgeon that results in a patient's death.
Murder is deliberate. An example would be aiming a firearm at an unarmed teenager and discharging the weapon half a dozen times.
I have neither the time nor the energy to explain to you in detail why this reasoning is completely wrong. Suffice to say that it displays no concept of the need for particular forms of knowledge and/or intention nor the existence of defences that excuse a killing. Nor does it contain any acknowledgment that this unarmed teenager appears to have caused injuries, nor the conflicting evidence as to just what his movements were in the seconds before his death.
Sure, firing a weapon straight at an unarmed teenager who is just standing there is murder. But it is very rare for people to just stand there. Your unarmed teenager is a blank slate, a sitting target, not a person interacting with another person.
[ 25. November 2014, 10:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I read this on a blog today -
"Our country is broken.
We cannot fix it by taking away military toys from the domestic police, as pundits suggest. We can only fix it through a deep and uncomfortable national conversation about the institutions of racial oppression that continue to cause unimaginable pain, tear communities apart and kill unarmed teenagers on the street."
Yep - when 67% of the population of a city is black yet most of the leaders and police are white this rings true ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yep - when 67% of the population of a city is black yet most of the leaders and police are white this rings true
Did I read this right? 67% of the population is black, yet 75% of the Grand Jury was white?
Irrespective of the legitimacy or even the relevance of Grand Juries (which sound a bit like our old Star Chamber) while I wouldn't expect precise proportionality, something close might persuade the policed that the police act impartially.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Group rights, grievances and history of maltreatment isn't answered nor addressed in a individualized system of justice.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Are the transcripts out, as promised? If so, are they available online?
I've got some suspicions, but I'm pretty much with orfeo about making a hasty judgment here. Apparently there will be a lot to wade through, so it might be hard to get some idea about how the specific processes were handled. But the result doesn't in itself prove bias.
To misquote Horseman Bree and Leonard Cohen, everybody doesn't know there was a fix in. I don't. At least not yet. That doesn't make me a cockeyed optimist either.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Grand jury proceedings must remain confidential if anyone is indicted. However, if the jury returns a no bill, then the judge may release the record. That urgently needs to happen in this case.
The most-widely reported version of what happened is that Brown was shot when he was running away with his hands over his head. The policeman tells a very different story.
He says that he was driving his patrol car when he saw two men walking along in the middle of the street. He stopped his car and called out the window for them to get over to the sidewalk. One of them replied, "We're not going very far.", and they continued walking in the middle of the street.
The policeman started to open his car door and get out. Brown quickly moved next to the door so that it would not open. (Brown was 6'5" tall and weighed 289 pounds. He could easily prevent the opening of the car door. Brown then reached through the car window and punched the policeman at least once in the face. He then tried to take policeman's gun, which was in a holster. There was a struggle for the gun and two shots were fired. One lodged in the police car and the other went into Brown's hand.
Brown turned and started going away from the police car; the policeman got out of the car, and Brown turned and charged him. (Given the discrepancy in physical size, Brown could easily have overpowered the policeman and taken the gun.) The policeman started shooting.
There are several pieces of evidence that back up the policeman's story. Apparently the autopsy report shows that Brown was shot from the front and his hands were not above his head. Moreover, Brown's blood was found inside the police car, on the gun, and on the policeman's uniform. If it is true that Brown's blood was found inside the police car, this is strong evidence for the truth of the policeman's story.
It is vital that the judge release the grand jury report so that people can understand why they reached the decision they did.
I am not denying that police brutality against blacks happens. However, the fact that it happens does not mean that all allegations are true.
MOO
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
In the comments under Cohen, it is stated that the prosecutor comes from a family of police, and his father, one of those policemen, was killed by an African-American.
It doesn't look as squeaky clean as it should, even if he bent over backwards to be unbiassed.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Group rights, grievances and history of maltreatment isn't answered nor addressed in a individualized system of justice.
This is very true. And in fact I'd go so far as to say trying to make the individualized system of justice address such things is fundamentally wrong. No individual policeman should be answerable for the ongoing story of poor treatment of African-Americans. Other methods need to be found to deal with it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Moo - that may be the case. I am not arguing that the policeman was definitively in the wrong. If there was a court case, and he was acquitted, I might disagree, but that would be acceptable.
What seems to be wrong is that the prosecutor felt there was sufficient evidence for a grand jury, but that there is apparently no case to answer. There is some evidence of wrongdoing, otherwise it would not have come to grand jury. But not enough to warrant a trial?
Given the sensitivity of the situation, which indicates that it is very hard to get a clear and defined truth, there seems like a good case to be answered as to what actually happened. The officer does appear to have a case to answer.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Did I read this right? 67% of the population is black, yet 75% of the Grand Jury was white?
As of the last census, Ferguson was 67% African-American. The grand jury came from all over St. Louis County which is 73% white. So, the makeup of the grand jury reflected the demographics of St. Louis County.
quote:
originally posted by Penny S:
In the comments under Cohen, it is stated that the prosecutor comes from a family of police, and his father, one of those policemen, was killed by an African-American.
It doesn't look as squeaky clean as it should, even if he bent over backwards to be unbiassed.
The county attorney didn't present the evidence to the grand jury and he could have declined to prosecute based on lack of evidence. Instead, he county attorney presented all of the evidence to the grand jury. The grand jury made the decision not to indict. The prosecutors weren't in the room when the decision was made. Normally, grand juries indict but normally prosecutors only present cases to a grand jury they believe they can win at trial.
Had there been an indictment, Wilson would have been acquitted. When Wilson was acquitted, the same statements about the legitimacy of the process would have been made. What is happening now was going to happen eventually. We are just getting the outrage now rather than later.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Given the sensitivity of the situation, which indicates that it is very hard to get a clear and defined truth, there seems like a good case to be answered as to what actually happened. The officer does appear to have a case to answer.
I cannot see how the sensitivity of the situation has anything to do with the quality of the evidence. It has to do with demographics and identity.
The officer does not have a case to answer simply on the grounds of being an officer, and white. Nor does he have a case to answer just because of a perception of uncertainty. A trial is aimed at a criminal conviction. It is not a judicial inquiry for the purpose of general fact-finding. If there is sufficient evidence of self-defence such that it would not be possible to negate that evidence and therefore achieve a conviction, then isn't that enough to make a trial pointless?
We had the Trayvon Martin case. A decision not to prosecute was overturned. There was a trial. There was an acquittal. It doesn't seem to have made anyone any happier to have had a trial, nor does it seem that the trial and the evidence of self-defence that it included changed many people's minds.
[ 25. November 2014, 14:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm less distrubed by the grand jury decision than by the general assumption that it must be wrong.
Killing and murder are regularly treated as synonyms. They're not.
This.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
For hundreds of years, people of African ancestry have been treated horribly here. Some of the manifestations have changed, but it's still awful. And much of that involves bad encounters with law enforcement and the judicial system. Cases like this one happen frequently, AIUI, and aren't appropriately dealt with. So there are the horrors of each individual case, plus cumulative recent injustice, plus injustice going all the way back to slavery.
That's the context. That's why people are inclined to think this was wrongful killing and wrongly handled.
Good context - but it doesn't change the simple fact that no one here, or in the vast majority of America (or anywhere else) knows exactly what happened that day. Nor have any of us seen all of the evidence.
We also live in a society where every young man killed by the police was "a good boy" or "was turning his life around", even when evidence to the contrary is clear as day. There's plenty of lying and plenty of mistrust on both sides of the issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think the decision was wrong because, as I understand it, the Grand Jury is there to decide whether there is a case to answer. From what I have seen, there is a case to answer - which doesn't mean that the officer is guilty. It means that there is sufficient evidence to indicate he might be guilty.
Without having seen all of the evidence, it appears the grand jury (who did) felt that no case to answer exists. As Orfeo pointed out above, killing does not necessarily equal murder; if the killing was justifiable under MO law, no case exists.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
It is vital that the judge release the grand jury report so that people can understand why they reached the decision they did.
I am not denying that police brutality against blacks happens. However, the fact that it happens does not mean that all allegations are true.
Exactly. All tigers are cats. Not all cats are tigers.
It seems to me the that reason the prosecutor handled this case in the way he did -- introducing far more evidence and testimony before the grand jury than is generally done -- was specifically to try and show that he wasn't covering up anything in an attempt to get the jury to return a no-bill. Completing that process requires release of the evidence to the public now that the proceedings have concluded.
For some folks, like those rioting and looting (sidebar - how stupid does one have to be to think that burning down the neighborhood one lives in will get them what they want?), it won't matter - their minds are made up, and they will do what they will do.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Good context - but it doesn't change the simple fact that no one here, or in the vast majority of America (or anywhere else) knows exactly what happened that day. Nor have any of us seen all of the evidence.
I'm given to understand that all the evidence presented in the case has been made public.
The problem is that no one tile in the mosaic is the pattern. But the problem is the pattern. The pattern says that cops kill black young men with impunity. And every time we see lack of punity, it reinforces our perception of the pattern.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Group rights, grievances and history of maltreatment isn't answered nor addressed in a individualized system of justice.
This is very true. And in fact I'd go so far as to say trying to make the individualized system of justice address such things is fundamentally wrong. No individual policeman should be answerable for the ongoing story of poor treatment of African-Americans. Other methods need to be found to deal with it.
Isn't this the problem "Other methods need to be found to deal with it."? No one wants the group mediation, restoration of relationships/non-relationships and emotional defusing, that would require give and take on all sides. Truth and Reconciliation Commissions models look clumsy when I've seen them in operation (in Canada regarding Indian Residential Schools), but apparently they do much for the airing of group grievances. The history of race relationships seems to cast a very, very long shadow in the USA.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm given to understand that all the evidence presented in the case has been made public.
I wasn't aware it had actually been released - the last reports I saw suggested that the court hadn't actually agreed to do so, despite McCullough's pronouncement at his press conference.
[ETA: just found them - they can be viewed here.]
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The problem is that no one tile in the mosaic is the pattern. But the problem is the pattern. The pattern says that cops kill black young men with impunity. And every time we see lack of punity, it reinforces our perception of the pattern.
While I can appreciate your point here, the problem is that the law doesn't work that way - it handles the individual case, not the sum of all cases in aggregation.
[ 25. November 2014, 14:13: Message edited by: jbohn ]
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The whole point of a grand jury is to decide if there is sufficient evidence to warrant going to trial. Not to decide guilt or innocence, that is for a regular trial jury, assuming the grand jury decides there is actually a case to try. In this case they decided there wasn't.
Also, to the best of my knowledge this particular grand jury was not created with the goal of dealing with this one case. Rather they met to handle a whole slew of possible cases, and were unlucky enough to be still on the job when this particular bombshell fell into their laps. So their racial makeup was not finagled in any way relative to the Ferguson case.
St Louis county is a weird mix. It totally surrounds but does not include St Louis city, and it ranges from lily white in some parts to almost wholly black in other parts.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
how stupid does one have to be to think that burning down the neighborhood one lives in will get them what they want?
I wonder how many of the arsonists, looters and rioters actually live in Ferguson.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Third, this issue does not just arise in a racial context. I see it everywhere. I've seen it in my own city. There is a simple reasoning process that I see repeatedly: that someone died, and the death was tragic, so therefore the death must be someone's fault.
This reasoning process is rarely articulated, but it is present over and over again. "Fault" isn't even always criminal. Sometimes it's about suing. Just last week, our High Court decided a case where a mentally ill man killed his friend after being discharged from hospital, and the deceased's relatives were trying to sue the hospital. They lost. The hospital did not owe the kind of duty necessary for the suit to be successful.
It is entirely possible for someone to be responsible for a senseless, tragic death. But that responsibility requires proof. It is also entirely possible for a senseless, tragic death to occur for which no particular person is to blame, or for which the dead person is just as much to blame as anyone else. The reason I get so uncomfortable about these cases is that the latter possibilities never seem to be where the majority opinion ends up. The finger always points somewhere.
Or in shorter version: Why do these unarmed black men keep shooting themselves?
The usual standard for firearms training is that you don't point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot. I'm not sure exactly how you get to the idea that deliberately shooting someone six times at distance is one of those accidental things that just happen. Can you walk me through the logic there? I'm not necessarily saying that there's always criminal liability in such an act, but to paint it as an accident with no human actors or fault involved seems a huge stretch.
For those who want transcripts, they can be found here.. Darren Wilson's testimony (and it's unusual for the accused to testify before a grand jury) can be found in volume 5, starting on page 197. The interesting thing to me is Wilson claims to have been suspicious of Brown because his knowledge of an earlier robbery where cigarillos were stolen, yet prior statements by the Ferguson Police Department claimed Wilson did not know about that robbery. It's an interesting disparity.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
how stupid does one have to be to think that burning down the neighborhood one lives in will get them what they want?
I wonder how many of the arsonists, looters and rioters actually live in Ferguson.
Good question. But it's a pattern we've seen time and again - in Detroit, in Los Angeles, etc.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The interesting thing to me is Wilson claims to have been suspicious of Brown because his knowledge of an earlier robbery where cigarillos were stolen, yet prior statements by the Ferguson Police Department claimed Wilson did not know about that robbery. It's an interesting disparity.
He may have heard something on his police radio that was meant for another policeman. Here is a surveillance video of the convenience store robbery. This video makes me wonder just how gentle and harmless Brown was.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
A grand jury can interview pretty much anybody they damn well want to. And not being idiots, this one chose to hear from basically anybody with the slightest connection to the case. That would certainly include the accused.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The shooting of a 12YO for waving a toy gun around yesterday tells me that there is something very wrong there, and maybe an indictment would have signaled a change. As it is, it SEEMS like white officers can kill black youths without fear of recrimination.
Really? It seems to me that every time a white officer kills a black person there is all kinds of recrimination. I don't ever remember seeing rioting in the streets when a white or black officer killed a white youth.
This is only racial because people want to make it racial, claiming profiling and unfairness on racial lines when there is none. The young man in Ferguson was a bully. He demonstrated his attitude in the video from the convenience store earlier that day. Brazenly stealing what he wanted and then using his superior size to shove the store clerk aside without pausing on his way out. He then proceeded to walk down the middle of the street, refuse to walk on the sidewalk after the police had told him to, punch a policeman in the face and then try to take away his gun. If I, an old white woman, punched a police office in the face and tried to take his gun, he would shoot me and it would never make the news.
Why are most of the police in this largely black town mostly white? The police chief of this town has said he would love to hire more black officers but very many black men want to be policemen. Not enough qualify and apply for the positions. Why was the jury more white than black? That could be the way the jury was selected and it might reflect the number of registered voters in the area. In my town only registered voters are called to jury duty.
There is a tendency to blame someone when this sort of thing happens but in this case and in the case of the 12 year old brandishing what appeared to be a gun on a play ground and, again, refusing to obey police orders, I think the blame falls on the criminal victims and to some extent their parents.
We always see the parents in these cases screaming at the police, but when are they going to take a little responsibility themselves? Why did someone buy that 12 year-old a toy that looked like a real gun? Why haven't the parents taught their sons to obey the law, don't punch store owners and police, or, at the very least, teach them to put their hands up when the police tell them to?
If we start demanding that police allow violent members of the public to take their guns, or allow someone of any age to draw and aim (what appears to be a gun) at them, without defending either themselves, or the children on the playground, then no one will be willing to accept this thankless job.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
He may have heard something on his police radio that was meant for another policeman.
That was essentially his testimony before the grand jury, which begs the question of why the Ferguson Police Department made a point earlier of maintaining that Wilson knew nothing about the robbery. That statement was a few days after the shooting, so they certainly should have interviewed Wilson at that point. So why the information disconnect? Did Wilson say something different to his superiors than he did to the grand jury, or did he make the same statement but his superiors felt the need to alter it for public consumption?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The jury was more white than black because it was chosen to reflect the composition of St. Louis County, in which jurisdiction Ferguson falls. It was not chosen with regards to this case, but long beforehand. The child with the fake gun was in another state, not in MO. And yes, there was fuckedupness going on, but not necessarily in the places most people imagine it to be.
I'm being dragged out the door by husband wanting to run errands--back in a bit.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I just heard them say that of the 62 people arrested in Ferguson last night, 60 were from Ferguson.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
]Really? It seems to me that every time a white officer kills a black person there is all kinds of recrimination. I don't ever remember seeing rioting in the streets when a white or black officer killed a white youth.
Which points to a good part of the issue being one of group relations with specific shootings or incidents only being a occurrence on the long path of troubles. I am reminded of the story Jared Diamond tells in one of his books about a child who darted out in front of a car in New Guinea and was killed. The fault was clearly the child's, but the resolution involved the families of the driver and child going to tribal-like mediation and exchange of information, emotions, food and money. None of it had anything to do with guilt or culpability. Rather restoration of relationship and prevention of violence between the groups, which in that case, like Ferguson case, didn't know each other before the incident.
How weird would it be to have the family of the deceased and some of their supporters, and the family of the officer and some of his supporters meet and talk? Apparently very very weird.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
how stupid does one have to be to think that burning down the neighborhood one lives in will get them what they want?
I wonder how many of the arsonists, looters and rioters actually live in Ferguson.
Good question. But it's a pattern we've seen time and again - in Detroit, in Los Angeles, etc.
I've lived thru two rounds of L.A. riots and the charge of "outside agitators" simply doesn't hold water. Similarly, I haven't seen any assessment of what happened last night of course, but in the early Ferguson unrest virtually all arrests of outsiders were of journalists-- including my son-in-law.
edit: see Twilight's post re last night's arrests.
[ 25. November 2014, 15:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
how stupid does one have to be to think that burning down the neighborhood one lives in will get them what they want?
I wonder how many of the arsonists, looters and rioters actually live in Ferguson.
Good question. But it's a pattern we've seen time and again - in Detroit, in Los Angeles, etc.
I've lived thru two rounds of L.A. riots and the charge of "outside agitators" simply doesn't hold water. Similarly, I haven't seen any assessment of what happened last night of course, but in the early Ferguson unrest virtually all arrests of outsiders were of journalists-- including my son-in-law.
edit: see Twilight's post re last night's arrests.
That's pretty much what I was getting at - in this individual case, it may involve outsiders (although, from Twilight's post, apparently not), but the general trend is local residents burning down their own neighborhood(s) to protest perceived injustice. Which makes about as much sense as showering in a raincoat.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
OK, an independent panel of citizens heard all the evidence, and decided to no bill it.
Was no true bill the right decision? As I wasn't in the grand jury room, I can't know for sure, but it's certainly possible. Brown was a big guy who'd just committed a robbery. It's credible that the officer feared for his life.
The result? A night of arson, looting, and violence. Multiple gunshots fired, any one of which could've destroyed another life. Looks like the grand jury's gonna have a lot more work ahead of it.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I just heard them say that of the 62 people arrested in Ferguson last night, 60 were from Ferguson.
Really from Ferguson or just folks saying they're from Ferguson?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Could this ever happen here?
quote:
how New Guineans resolve the death of a child who is killed in a traffic accident outside of a court system.
Within five days of the boy's death the family and the driver's employer had come to an agreement on how to make good through a compensation ceremony. The process included the employer and his staff participating in a formal mourning ceremony, giving the family food and a small amount of money to "say sorry".
"In traditional societies, such as New Guinea, the emphasis is not on punishment or deterrence, the emphasis is on emotional reconciliation,"
Is reconciliation and restorative justice simply out of the question?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is reconciliation and restorative justice simply out of the question?
I don't know that it's even possible to begin a process with people willing to assault journalists and burn down businesses completely unrelated to what they're supposedly upset about.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
people, these are not a unit block. These are human beings. Some are fuckwits. Some are decent people. Some have been wronged. Some are wronging others. Trying to deal with a bunch of individuals as if they were all exactly the same is ... basically going to set us up for further problems.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is reconciliation and restorative justice simply out of the question?
I don't know that it's even possible to begin a process with people willing to assault journalists and burn down businesses completely unrelated to what they're supposedly upset about.
A good first step would be the media to stop calling the rioting "protests," and the end of excuse making articles like this.
The U.S. has yet to heal centuries of institutional racism, but healing won't start until all citizens are treated with the dignity of high expectations. Making excuses for arson and violence infantilizes. It is, in its own way, deeply racist.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Look, I'll tell you what I saw (via Twitter etc.) last night while my family was sleeping.
I focused on two areas, Ferguson itself (where I may be taking classes soon) and the Shaw neighborhood, where I once lived and where our ministry has centered for the past 25 years.
In Ferguson, everything seems to have gone bad very quickly. Gunshots, fires, outright nasty crap including people losing their small businesses altogether.
In Shaw, things didn't seem to go to hell until the police for whatever God-only-knows reason began acting in really bizarre ways. (Possibly due to fear that it was all going to tip over into Ferguson-style violence, but still.)
Shaw/South Grand is a different neighborhood and the protesters there seem to have been a very different lot. For one thing, you've got a major university (St. Louis U) on that street, and a medical school and a couple schools of nursing etc. You've also got a very very multi-ethnic population, predominantly black and white, but with sizable populations of every immigrant group since the Vietnamese boat people, all living within a stone's throw of Grand. So: Vietnamese, Cambodians, Somali, Rwandans, Burundi, Bosnians (a big one), etc. etc. etc.
It's also an area that has undergone major revival (not quite gentrification, more internationalization and revitalization).
So who was at the protests there? It seemed to me to be people who were much more set on peaceful protest. People chanting, carrying signs etc, marching, and taking periodic breaks in the coffee shop, church, etc. I believe there was one idiot fairly early who tossed a trashcan through a business window, but that was unusual and surprising. Until for some freakin' reason I haven't figured out yet, the tear gas started flying. WTF?
What violence I could pick up on (property damage, mainly windows) seems to me to have started AFTER that and in response to that.
And it wasn't helped by some idiot's decision to tear gas a couple of designated safe places filled with people, including a coffee shop and a church. Which were of course filled with people, many of them student types, all madly twittering away on their i-phones. And taking photos and video. Can you say "public relations disaster"?
I swear, I was SO tempted to go down and join in the protests after that shit happened, and I am a cold-blooded analytical type who is far more inclined to accept the grand jury's decision than to question it when I haven't heard the evidence and they have. And I wanted to get my butt down there and join in. Because that kind of shit shouldn't be happening.
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING????
And I'm pissed off because it is in some sense MY neighborhood, and because they (someone) mishandled the response, what was originally peaceful if vigorous went to shit.
I am so pissed off.
ETA: Byron, I am this close to calling you to hell. Please reconsider your tone when speaking about this highly complex and emotionally charged situation.
[ 25. November 2014, 16:25: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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