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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader
Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Picture two men pointing guns at each other. Both know that if either of them shoots then the other will shoot back, and therefore neither will shoot. But if one of them sneezes, they're both dead.

Fixed that for you.
If you can figure out a way to get every single country in the world to swear off nuclear weapons for ever and ever amen then I'll be the happiest bunny in the warren. Until then, it remains the case that MAD is the best defence against being nuked.
For now we'll just export war and be killed gradually, but no less surely.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Picture two men pointing guns at each other. Both know that if either of them shoots then the other will shoot back, and therefore neither will shoot. But if one of them sneezes, they're both dead.

Fixed that for you.
If you can figure out a way to get every single country in the world to swear off nuclear weapons for ever and ever amen then I'll be the happiest bunny in the warren. Until then, it remains the case that MAD is the best defence against being nuked.
Or you could invest in a bullet proof suit instead of a gun.

MAD is crap because it does not protect. And insane world leaders are a thing that happens at regular intervals.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Picture two men pointing guns at each other. Both know that if either of them shoots then the other will shoot back, and therefore neither will shoot. But if one of them sneezes, they're both dead.

Fixed that for you.
If you can figure out a way to get every single country in the world to swear off nuclear weapons for ever and ever amen then I'll be the happiest bunny in the warren. Until then, it remains the case that MAD is the best defence against being nuked.
Someone will sneeze, at some point. How do you defend against that?

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Someone very nearly did. Given this little fun episode and this well known bit of willy waving I think it's fair enough to fear that it is, in fact, only a matter of time before MAD kills us all.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Doc Tor
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Technically, they actually did sneeze, only someone was there with a hanky.

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Forward the New Republic

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TurquoiseTastic

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Picture two men pointing guns at each other. Both know that if either of them shoots then the other will shoot back, and therefore neither will shoot. But if one of them sneezes, they're both dead.

Fixed that for you.
If you can figure out a way to get every single country in the world to swear off nuclear weapons for ever and ever amen then I'll be the happiest bunny in the warren. Until then, it remains the case that MAD is the best defence against being nuked.
Well we say we expect almost every other country in the world to do this. We would not be impressed if, say, South Korea decided that they wanted to have some nuclear weapons. I bet they could fairly easily make some, and they have rather more reason to want some than we do.

The point about the Mexican stand-off with guns that you describe is that it is an incredibly dangerous situation. If you were dealing with that situation, the very first thing you would try to do is get everyone to put the guns down. Everything else would take second place until that happened.

I can just about see that the US might be a special case. They could argue as the "world superpower" and "world policeman" they should be the last ones to put the gun down. I think that's arguable. But there seems much less defence for Britain to have nuclear weapons. If Britain, then why not Germany, or Spain, or Brazil, or Australia, or... anyone really?

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Humble Servant
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# 18391

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Picture two men pointing guns at each other. Both know that if either of them shoots then the other will shoot back, and therefore neither will shoot. But if one of them sneezes, they're both dead.

Fixed that for you.
If you can figure out a way to get every single country in the world to swear off nuclear weapons for ever and ever amen then I'll be the happiest bunny in the warren. Until then, it remains the case that MAD is the best defence against being nuked.
One thing is certain - we will never have a nuclear free world while the UK holds these WMD. Stomping into Iraq on the pretext that they were not allowed to own the very weapons that we had was the most hypocritical thing about the whole Sadam Husein episode. How can we speak out against a weapon that we have stockpiled and are renewing. We believe in them; why shouldn't others.
If we want the nukes gone, we must lead the way.

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George Spigot

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Maybe we should make a list of all the other things we should do because if we don't someone else will.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:

I can just about see that the US might be a special case. They could argue as the "world superpower" and "world policeman" they should be the last ones to put the gun down. I think that's arguable.

If you accept that the US ought to be global policeman, that is. Personally I have very grave reservations about any one state assuming this role, whoever they may be.

Also it seems fairly clear to me that the days of US as the sole global superpower are coming to a close and we need to get ready to welcome our new Chinese overlords.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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alienfromzog

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Corbyn missing first Privy Council Meeting he could attend due to 'prior engangement'

Any thoughts?

AFZ

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

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Ricardus
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Well, I'm ambivalent towards Mr Corbyn as I've said, but the article also points out that Mr Cameron took three months to attend, so this story seems to be just mischief-making.

That said, as far as I can see all of the arguments against the monarchy apply a fortiori against the Privy Council, which has actual and rather sinister powers despite its lack of democratic legitimacy - ask the Chagossians (whose cause Mr Corbyn has defended in the past - one of his good points IMO).

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Doc Tor
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Perhaps the temptation to have a strong word with one particularly ham-faced Privy counsellor regarding the calumnious defamation spoken from a stage in Manchester yesterday would have proved too great, and he's wisely withdrawn himself.

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Forward the New Republic

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Well, I'm ambivalent towards Mr Corbyn as I've said, but the article also points out that Mr Cameron took three months to attend, so this story seems to be just mischief-making

I agree. Judging by the reason he missed the RWC opening ceremony he probably has a good reason too.

What worries me is that he needs to pick his battles. The way this will be spun is un-prime-ministerial.

I like that he cares more about doing good than looking good but he's got to win too.

AFZ

P.s. I agree with you about Diego Garcia: one of the most shameful episodes in our nation's history.

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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lowlands_boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Perhaps the temptation to have a strong word with one particularly ham-faced Privy counsellor regarding the calumnious defamation spoken from a stage in Manchester yesterday would have proved too great, and he's wisely withdrawn himself.

I can't imagine Cameron arses himself to turn up all the time either. Surely he can get intelligence briefings on account of being the PM, rather than having to turn up to a free lunch for it.

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I thought I should update my signature line....

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alienfromzog

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Owen Jones was very much a Corbyn supporter from the beginning. This piece is very interesting:

quote:
Jones in the Guardian:
It is a moment of anguish that should have caused discomfort in both No 10 and No 11. “You’re about to cut tax credits when you promised you wouldn’t,” an anguished mother yelled from last night’s Question Time audience
[she voted Conservative in May]

When I shared the video of the disillusioned Tory voter, some of the responses were less than sympathetic. She was berated for bringing it on herself and for having an “I’m all right, Jack” attitude. This is political suicide. Tory voters having their tax credits chipped away desperately need to be love-bombed. You are told you are doing the right thing. You are told that you are hard-working and you are striving. And yet you are being penalised. Hundreds of thousands of those affected are self-employed people, a natural constituency for the Tories.

I do not think that everyone who voted Tory was being selfish. I think they believed what they were told.

It's no good shouting about Tory lies. We have to, have to, have to win the argument.

I had a look back at last night's QT. Just before this bit, the Conservative MP described Labour as a threat to Education and Health because both desperately needed a strong economy. The implication being obvious.

The thing is though. The Tories have delivered the opposite. Show this to the people and the Conservative party's support will collapse.

As I've said elsewhere, the reason why the Tories should be worried about Corbyn is because he will call them on this. On Austerity, on Tax Credits, on the real effects of their policies in a way previously Labour were not brave enough to do. The reason why the Tories aren't worried is because they are confident that their propaganda machine and tame press will win.

Watch this space.

AFZ

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:

I do not think that everyone who voted Tory was being selfish. I think they believed what they were told.

It's no good shouting about Tory lies. We have to, have to, have to win the argument.

Up to a point. The problem is that there were plenty of stories in the press prior the election about various vulnerable groups (such as the disabled) who feared the consequences of the brutal cuts that were being talked about. To that extent there were also a large number of people who who bought into the strivers/shirkers deserving/undeserving dichotomy, and assuming which group the Tories would assign them to.

So the fury is not so much that their eyes have been opened to the extent and reality of the cuts, but that they feel they have been categorised incorrectly.

The easiest thing in the world would be to re-draw the dichotomy slightly to include a few of the more vocal.

[ 16. October 2015, 20:36: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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I do struggle with the idea than any grown adult would believe that the tories are on the side of the working poor. I've a lot of sympathy for the victims of this government but I do have to ask how dumb you have to be to be taken in by this shower. Being a bit dense is not a reason to punish someone, of course, but I hope the lady concerned and others will learn this basic, fundamental political truth: never trust a tory.
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L'organist
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One of the biggest problems with political life is that all parties think they can prevent the UK economy from being subject to pressures from elsewhere in the world. Sure, governments can try to put in place measures which will lessen the impact of, say, a global downturn, but they can't wrap the economy in cotton wool.

Where we do have a problem is that there are some in British public and political life who think that the normal laws of fiscal prudence shouldn't (don't?) apply to a nation state: a level of economic ignorance which is frightening. The fact that this mirrors the ignorance of large numbers of the electorate doesn't help or make it any better.

In another thread there is a discussion about health care costs and affordability: this becomes more and more pertinent to the UK economy generally as the NHS budget takes an ever greater share of GDP with no sign of such increase stopping, rather that it is likely to accelerate.

To get back to J Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party: what puzzles me at the moment is his total silence on the row about Tom Watson: startling if TW was just a backbencher, extraordinary since TW is his deputy. Of course, this might have something to do with the many scandals involving the local authority children's homes in Islington when JC was a councillor there and Margaret Hodge was Chair of the SS Committee...

[ 17. October 2015, 10:13: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I do struggle with the idea than any grown adult would believe that the tories are on the side of the working poor. I've a lot of sympathy for the victims of this government but I do have to ask how dumb you have to be to be taken in by this shower. Being a bit dense is not a reason to punish someone, of course, but I hope the lady concerned and others will learn this basic, fundamental political truth: never trust a tory.

I agree with your conclusion [Biased] but that's a little beside the point.

The thing is, in our democracy (any democracy?) most people today have very little engagement. People don't vote rationally, they don't think things through. Hence why rhetorical devices and propaganda are much more effective than the truth. Divide and rule works really well.

I suppose with someone like this woman one of two responses are possible: 1. "Well you brought it on yourself" 2. "This is what the Tory policy means for people like you - oh and all these other groups too"

I think Owen Jones' point (and he's more left than me) is that 2. is the only rational response - these are the people Labour needs in order to win.

I don't know, I wonder if people are guilty of a kind of I'm alright Jack approach and are learning a sorry lesson that the Tory's division of workers/shirkers (or whatever this week's version is) puts them on the wrong side. I suppose it's easy to be self-righteous but for me, it's more important to win.

Not because winning is the important thing but because to enact the right policies, power is needed. That means winning.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
One of the biggest problems with political life is that all parties think they can prevent the UK economy from being subject to pressures from elsewhere in the world. Sure, governments can try to put in place measures which will lessen the impact of, say, a global downturn, but they can't wrap the economy in cotton wool.

No, no, no, no, no.
The biggest problem is that the worldwide economic crisis has been used to justify unjust policies. Moreover they are bad policies from a purely economic perspective. It's not that Osborne is doing harsh but necessary things, it's that he's doing unnecessary and damaging things that are also very harsh. No one is looking for utopia here, just learning the lessons of the 1930s would do for me.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where we do have a problem is that there are some in British public and political life who think that the normal laws of fiscal prudence shouldn't (don't?) apply to a nation state: a level of economic ignorance which is frightening. The fact that this mirrors the ignorance of large numbers of the electorate doesn't help or make it any better.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here but you're close to comparing the national economy to a household budget.

This is a really bad idea in economic terms
This is a really good idea in political rhetoric terms.

This is a really good place to start.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In another thread there is a discussion about health care costs and affordability: this becomes more and more pertinent to the UK economy generally as the NHS budget takes an ever greater share of GDP with no sign of such increase stopping, rather that it is likely to accelerate.

This isn't true. The NHS budget is not increasing in terms of share of GDP. It might need to but it's not. Moreover, Britain's healthcare spend (as a proportion of GDP) remains around the European average, below France and Germany and half of the US. So, whilst it would be foolish to suggest there is no problem here, it is shrill in the extreme to suggest that it is a major threat to the UK economy at this point.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
To get back to J Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party: what puzzles me at the moment is his total silence on the row about Tom Watson: startling if TW was just a backbencher, extraordinary since TW is his deputy. Of course, this might have something to do with the many scandals involving the local authority children's homes in Islington when JC was a councillor there and Margaret Hodge was Chair of the SS Committee...

This one is just odd. I'm not sure if you're suggesting Corbyn (and others) were involved in a cover-up, but either way the idea that the majority of the media would not be throwing such at Corbyn if there were a story here - given what nonsense has already been thrown at him - is just ridiculous.

AFZ

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:

I suppose with someone like this woman one of two responses are possible: 1. "Well you brought it on yourself" 2. "This is what the Tory policy means for people like you - oh and all these other groups too"

I think Owen Jones' point (and he's more left than me) is that 2. is the only rational response - these are the people Labour needs in order to win.

The problem with Owen's arguments is that he continues to use the vocabulary of 'strivers' (vs presumably 'shirkers'. Any strategy based around this - in the long run - just enforces the dichotomy pushed by the Tories in the last election, with a minor re-drawing of the borders so that a slightly different set of people are now the 'in' group.
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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:

I suppose with someone like this woman one of two responses are possible: 1. "Well you brought it on yourself" 2. "This is what the Tory policy means for people like you - oh and all these other groups too"

I think Owen Jones' point (and he's more left than me) is that 2. is the only rational response - these are the people Labour needs in order to win.

The problem with Owen's arguments is that he continues to use the vocabulary of 'strivers' (vs presumably 'shirkers'. Any strategy based around this - in the long run - just enforces the dichotomy pushed by the Tories in the last election, with a minor re-drawing of the borders so that a slightly different set of people are now the 'in' group.
I'm not sure that's fair. Jones has written a lot about how this dichotomy is totally false. I think in this context he's aiming at a proof-by-contradiction. i.e. There's no doubt that this lady is a striver... therefore...

AFZ

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Arethosemyfeet
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There's a real irony in someone talking about "normal laws of fiscal prudence" accusing other people of economic ignorance. When you have control of your currency you have many more options available to you that lessen the impact of a recession and speed the recovery from it. A nation state also has to be wary of the multiplier effects of its actions. If a household cuts it's spending then that doesn't (usually) lead to a fall income as well. If someone insists on using the household analogy the best comparison is refusing to spend money on putting petrol in the car you use to get to work because you'd have to put it on the credit card. True you won't add to your debt in the short term, but that won't help you when you get sacked for not showing up to work.
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Martin60
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Picked up the Daily Telegraph in the hotel morning room. Sigh. I used to regard it as holy writ. Full of snipes against Corbyn. Snipes which polarize me FIRST toward him on the issues of the sniping: he has Hamas supporters and has endorsed the IRA and won't launch nukes.

I have to then dig in to my response deeper. Jeremy is right to empathize with Hamas, the IRA, to see where they are coming from, that they are forced in to extremism by their powerlessness. I buy ALL of that. Including understanding why Palestinians start murdering Jewish civilian occupiers.

Which is a foul, feckless, deranged evil response to institutionalized evil. One I'd have praised in the Warsaw ghetto. In Britain if the Nazis had won. Which I've been ambivalent about in the war against apartheid. Just exposing my own inconsistencies there.

I voted for Jeremy and take responsibility for that. I will take this up with him in my continued support.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Done.

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Love wins

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

The problem with Owen's arguments is that he continues to use the vocabulary of 'strivers' (vs presumably 'shirkers'. Any strategy based around this - in the long run - just enforces the dichotomy pushed by the Tories in the last election, with a minor re-drawing of the borders so that a slightly different set of people are now the 'in' group.

I'm not sure that's fair. Jones has written a lot about how this dichotomy is totally false. I think in this context he's aiming at a proof-by-contradiction. i.e. There's no doubt that this lady is a striver... therefore...

Really? Looking at the various interviews with her, she states that her business is currently making no profit. So essentially her income amounts to the various tax credits which she is collecting; welfare in all but name.

Which is absolutely fine. There should absolutely be a safety net, and it is somewhat nonsensical that we are in a situation where people are better off (in some circumstances) by re-classing themselves as self employed. The cuts to tax-credits are being used to fund tax cuts elsewhere to the more well off.

The issue here is prior to the election there were plenty of stories around projected cuts - including cuts to disability benefit. That so many people on relatively low incomes were so willing to vote Tory was party down to the inability to feel that they had a common cause with the disabled (among other groups). Continually harping on about 'strivers' is unlikely to make this more likely.

[ 18. October 2015, 23:22: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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To what extent do you think that the fact of Corbyn's platform is influencing actions such as; the withdrawal from the Saudi prison contact, Tories becoming concerned about the tax credit issue, Cameron getting round to writing to the Saudi government about specific cases etc ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Jane R
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# 331

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chris stiles:
quote:
...it is somewhat nonsensical that we are in a situation where people are better off (in some circumstances) by re-classing themselves as self employed.
It may seem nonsensical to you, but it is one of the reasons why the much-trumpeted unemployment figures are so low. People who are classed as self-employed but whose businesses are not making any profit (or not enough to live on) aren't counted as unemployed. Any other businesses that employ them don't have to finance their NI payments and make them members of the company pension scheme, so using freelancers works out cheaper than employing someone to do the same job; and you only have to pay them when they are actually working on something for you.

Presumably this woman has started up her own business in an attempt to find work that fits around her childcare responsibilities. I can relate to that; that's why I am self-employed, and although my own business does make a reasonable profit now it took nearly a year to build up a reasonable list of clients.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
It may seem nonsensical to you, but it is one of the reasons why the much-trumpeted unemployment figures are so low. People who are classed as self-employed but whose businesses are not making any profit (or not enough to live on) aren't counted as unemployed.

My 'nonsensical' remark was a comment on the macro level situation - clearly people need the money to survive, and so placing additional hoops through which to make them jump seems perverse. I can completely understand that the decision might make sense for each party (the Jobcentre gets someone off JSA and thus into 'employment', the claimant gets more from the government than they would have otherwise).

quote:

Presumably this woman has started up her own business in an attempt to find work that fits around her childcare responsibilities. I can relate to that; that's why I am self-employed, and although my own business does make a reasonable profit now it took nearly a year to build up a reasonable list of clients.

In this case, this woman has been running her business since 2013, and doesn't generate a profit. Her sole 'income' is from tax credits, which she can claim as long as she works for at least 16 hours a week[*]. I am not begrudging her that money at all, however I am questioning the reasoning and motives of people who vote to 'cut welfare' (welfare bad) but don't seem to count the payments they receive as a form of welfare - it seems to me to be a form of politicised spite against those even less fortunate.

[*] There is an additional twist here in that she says that many of her clients are on tax credits themselves, and she fears the impact the cuts will have on her business.

[ 21. October 2015, 09:35: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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alienfromzog

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# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I am not begrudging her that money at all, however I am questioning the reasoning and motives of people who vote to 'cut welfare' (welfare bad) but don't seem to count the payments they receive as a form of welfare - it seems to me to be a form of politicised spite against those even less fortunate.

This is an important issue.

There is a dual-culpability here.

The Tories for deliberately fermenting this view for their own political ends.

People who vote for them on the basis that the evil recipients of benefits (not lovely pensioners or hard working people like me) are the problem.

Either way this woman has had a change of heart. Whether you doubt her motives or not, the Left has a choice in its response. To win the argument surely something of "Yep, this is what the Tory policy does to you and lots of other innocents" rather than "It's you're own fault, I've no sympathy" is the more effective strategic response?

AFZ

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[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

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Alan Cresswell

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I think that an element of Tory practice being to employ their chums in Fleet Street to spin a web of half truths and misrepresentation to dupe people into voting for them against their best interests could also be highlighted.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:

To win the argument surely something of "Yep, this is what the Tory policy does to you and lots of other innocents"

Sure, if you want to win the immediate argument you do that. To actually change the view in the long run you have to challenge their definition of 'innocents' and 'welfare' though - which is where I felt the reiteration of the word 'striver' was unhelpful (presumably if you can't strive, you are chopped liver).
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Marvin the Martian

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# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I am questioning the reasoning and motives of people who vote to 'cut welfare' (welfare bad) but don't seem to count the payments they receive as a form of welfare

Whatever other failings I may have (which vary depending on who you speak to [Biased] ), I'm happy to say this is not one of them. They could abolish every single form of welfare or tax credit tomorrow and I wouldn't be a penny worse off.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I am questioning the reasoning and motives of people who vote to 'cut welfare' (welfare bad) but don't seem to count the payments they receive as a form of welfare

Whatever other failings I may have (which vary depending on who you speak to [Biased] ), I'm happy to say this is not one of them. They could abolish every single form of welfare or tax credit tomorrow and I wouldn't be a penny worse off.
Unless and until you are struck down by illness or disability / are made redundant / retire...

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think that an element of Tory practice being to employ their chums in Fleet Street to spin a web of half truths and misrepresentation to dupe people into voting for them against their best interests could also be highlighted.

Surely not? I always thought that the Press was totally neutral, disinterested and incorruptible. [Two face]

(Problems is, many folk seem to think that it is, and swallow everything they're peddled, whether it be about "welfare scroungers", migrants being given "luxury flats" or whatever).

[ 21. October 2015, 16:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Surely not? I always thought that the Press was totally neutral, disinterested and incorruptible. [Two face]

(Problems is, many folk seem to think that it is, and swallow everything they're peddled, whether it be about "welfare scroungers", migrants being given "luxury flats" or whatever).

Whaaat? Admittedly I'm even more biased against the press than most. But I don't know anyone who thinks that.

My impression is that most people thought that Drop the Dead Donkey was almost too ready to give the media the benefit of the doubt. Here's a link for any shipmate from outside the UK who's strayed onto this thread.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I am questioning the reasoning and motives of people who vote to 'cut welfare' (welfare bad) but don't seem to count the payments they receive as a form of welfare

Whatever other failings I may have (which vary depending on who you speak to [Biased] ), I'm happy to say this is not one of them. They could abolish every single form of welfare or tax credit tomorrow and I wouldn't be a penny worse off.
You wouldn't need to increase your pension contributions ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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How is your insurance against redundancy?

Please do not give me I am in a secure job waffle. I was assured that my contract was rolling in the NHS, which turned into 3-year contract due to internal politics.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I am questioning the reasoning and motives of people who vote to 'cut welfare' (welfare bad) but don't seem to count the payments they receive as a form of welfare

Whatever other failings I may have (which vary depending on who you speak to [Biased] ), I'm happy to say this is not one of them. They could abolish every single form of welfare or tax credit tomorrow and I wouldn't be a penny worse off.
You wouldn't need to increase your pension contributions ?
Probably not, no - unless my employer's final salary scheme went tits up. But then I'd be screwed either way.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Well yes, but your state pension + your final salary pension is what you would be livign on post retirement. So therefore, if state pension was stopped - you wouldn't be getting it so there whatever it is 130 a fortnight worse off ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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I'm not expecting to get a state pension by the time I retire anyway. Even if such a thing still exists by then, demographics alone will probably dictate that it's only given to the very poorest pensioners. And the odds are that I won't be in that category.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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Ah - so what you're saying is that if all the benefits are abolished you wouldn't be any worse off than you would be assuming all the benefits were abolished?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm not expecting to get a state pension by the time I retire anyway. Even if such a thing still exists by then, demographics alone will probably dictate that it's only given to the very poorest pensioners. And the odds are that I won't be in that category.

Demographics be buggered and austerity too. It's the "shits in suits" that will cut pensions (and benefits), irrespective of the state of the economy.

The economy will recover and overtake the position it was in before the credit crunch, but pensions and benefits will continue to be cut because those who have the influence to overrule all but the bravest of democratically elected governments are determined to maintain the drift towards greater inequality of incomes, which has been going on for at least 35 years now.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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Marvin, would you be equally well off if you, your wife and/or children got sick and you had to take time off work for treatment or to care for them?

Sick employee or family member = Lack of reliability for work = zero job security, employment law having been changed to allow employers to get rid of workers quickly and easily under the Tories. No employment, no pension plan.

Plus there's all the welfare state provision from the NHS for the health care of the sick - that's more welfare, always assuming the NHS is still viable enough to do any caring for anyone.

People who end up homeless have lots of reasons for doing so:
  • struggling to work as they have PTSD following a work incident,
  • getting divorced and losing their house to their wife and children.
  • getting sick and behind on their mortgage payments.
I've met homeless people who ran their own company but had their house repossessed, not for anything they did, but because a big customer failed owing a shed load of money.

None of us are far from being reclassified as welfare claimants and skivers.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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