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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Rev. Colin Urquhart and the Charismatic Renewal
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I once read an article by a very Reformed evangelical that maintained that New Frontiers - as a Reformed flavoured charismatic outfit - was some kind if Trojan Horse that was attempting to lure stalwart evangelicals off the straight and narrow and back towards - cue creepy music - darnn Darrnn DAaaRRNnn ... Rome!
I agree with Baptist Trainfan that at its best there can be something wholesome about the more cerebral and intellectually satisfying elements of Reformed preaching and teaching - as indeed there is in abstract, geometric Islamic art ...
And I conjoin the two deliberately ...
But equally it can be rather arid.
All these things have their shadow sides. Ritual can become ritualism, revival can become revivalism ... a Reformed emphasis can end up very dry, a Wesleyan emphasis can end up wallowing in sentiment.
We need elements of each, I think, to create some kind of equilibrium.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I agree entirely. I was merely speculating as to whether the rationality of the Reformed tradition makes it one in which charismatic expression is inherently less likely to take root. (I'm not in any way thinking of a Calvinist/Arminian divide, more of an "intellectual"/"emotional" one).
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I agree entirely. I was merely speculating as to whether the rationality of the Reformed tradition makes it one in which charismatic expression is inherently less likely to take root. (I'm not in any way thinking of a Calvinist/Arminian divide, more of an "intellectual"/"emotional" one).
To which I repeat, I suspect it is more down to personality types that inhabit these circles than theology - historically the Reformed tradition has been as prone to charismatic movements as anything else.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I once read an article by a very Reformed evangelical that maintained that New Frontiers - as a Reformed flavoured charismatic outfit - was some kind if Trojan Horse that was attempting to lure stalwart evangelicals off the straight and narrow and back towards - cue creepy music - darnn Darrnn DAaaRRNnn ... Rome!
I agree with Baptist Trainfan that at its best there can be something wholesome about the more cerebral and intellectually satisfying elements of Reformed preaching and teaching - as indeed there is in abstract, geometric Islamic art ...
And I conjoin the two deliberately ...
But equally it can be rather arid.
All these things have their shadow sides. Ritual can become ritualism, revival can become revivalism ... a Reformed emphasis can end up very dry, a Wesleyan emphasis can end up wallowing in sentiment.
We need elements of each, I think, to create some kind of equilibrium.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I am not sure RC Renewal is invisible at all levels. Certainly locally it is visible and acknowledged by local charismatic leaders. The Alpha Course videos speak of Pope Francis as a prophetic voice. Soul Survivor work with RC renewal groups.
In terms of music there is certainly overlap - just like Anglicans singing Methodist Hymns.
But some material is clearly theologically catholic:
Our God is Here
None of this explains why the charismatic movement is so evangelical.
Friends who are involved with the RC charismatic movement emphasise very strongly that they want to be spirit filled and Catholic. They go to prayer meetings and Mass on Sunday.
This means they're not such an identifable, seperate group in the same way as some of the others who've gone on to set up their own churches, conferences etc. And then slagged off the churches they've left.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that's a helpful observation, Tubbs. We might not notice RC charismatics because most of the time they simply attend Mass and do what other RCs do ... they aren't hiving off into specially constituted groups for the most part ... or if they are they do this alongside, rather than instead of, what the rest get up to.
So, for all we know, there might be plenty of charismatic RCs at our local RC parishes and we'd be none the wiser.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that's a helpful observation, Tubbs. We might not notice RC charismatics because most of the time they simply attend Mass and do what other RCs do ... they aren't hiving off into specially constituted groups for the most part ... or if they are they do this alongside, rather than instead of, what the rest get up to.
Which is exactly how the Charismatic Movement was intended to work from the beginning: Renewal of the religious community you are part of, through the working of the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Not the easiest road to travel, by the way. The majority of communities proved to be wary of, or downright hostile to, any renewal that wasn't either liberalizing or traditionalist. Today there are parishes were the CR is appreciated, but there are far more parishes were people don't even know it exists.
The result here in The Netherlands, 45 years onward, is that RC charismatics seem to become more traditionalist. Also the optimistic ecumenicism of the beginning is shifting more and more to the RC variant of "You are very welcome to return to the RCC.". A tell-tale sign of this was the popularity in the RC-CR of the Dutch translation of Rome Sweet Home some years ago.
Reflecting om what transpired in the last 45 years, I wonder if maybe movements in general shouldn't allow themselves to outlive their goals.
In the case of the CR, too much energy seems to go into the continued existence of the Movement itself, instead of realization of the original goals.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks - yes opaWim, that's another helpful observation.
In many ways, the charismatic renewal in the Anglican Communion - and also among the Presbyterians, Baptists and others - was meant to 'operate' in the same kind of way ... but also in reaction to opposition and also in response to the perennial Protestant impetus towards continual reform - 'semper reformada' - and indeed perhaps inherent schismatic tendencies - there was a pull towards separation and hiving off to form new communities ...
I mentioned the Renewal magazines ... you can trace the development of this tendency there. Initially, as I mentioned upthread, there were plenty of RC and Anglo-Catholic voices alongside evangelical Anglican ones and also renewalists from Baptist and other 'non-conformist' or Free Church backgrounds ... the late (great) Douglas McBain and so on.
Some of those who went on to form the 'restorationist' 'new churches' here in the UK were also regular contributors to Renewal magazine - notably Arthur Wallis who was a pivotal figure in the development of the 'new churches' ...
So, all of a sudden, you got a plethora of articles and letters on the 'stay in or move out' debate ... which was something that had been live and current within evangelicalism for some time. Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones famously clashed with the Anglican evangelical, John Stott over the issue of whether evangelicals should leave the CofE as it had become far too liberal and 'apostate' and form their own independent evangelical churches ...
I found myself caught up in all of that and after some deliberation, threw in my lot with the restorationists despite considerable reservations.
I went through all of that and came out the other side, relatively unscathed ... even though I have bemoaned a lot of what went on here on the Ship.
Whatever does not kill us makes us stronger ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
On the wider charismatic issue, I think some of the wisest words ever written on it all came from Dr Andrew Walker the sociologist (Pentecostal turned agnostic turned Russian Orthodox), Nigel Wright the Baptist and Tom Smail (Church of Scotland) the veteran renewalist in their 1996 SPCK book, 'Charismatic Renewal: The search for a theology'.
I've often said that this book kept me sane 20 years ago. It's dated now, but in many respects I think it's conclusions hold good.
I do encounter a lot of disillusionment among those who were involved in the charismatic renewal back in the 1970s - both those who operated within the historic denominations and those who set up their own new churches, networks and 'streams'.
I get criticised for the use of the term 'over-egged' as I do for my 'both/and not either/or' mantra but I do wonder whether 'over-egged expectations' were partly to blame ... as the triumvirate of Walker, Wright and Smail observed, there can be a kind of 'over-realised eschatology' in charismatic circles.
I do wonder whether, by its very nature, the charismatic dimension is bound to disappoint ... it sets itself up for a prat-fall to some extent.
If vatic and intense spiritual experiences are set as the aim and bench-mark then it's hardly surprising that there's going to be disillusionment and burn-out ... after all, if you were involved in 'rave-culture' you'd need to build in some chill-time otherwise you'd boil over and burn yourself out pretty quickly ...
This has always been an issue for revivalist or enthusiastic movements ... Evan Roberts the Welsh Revivalist burned himself out after 18 months ... although he did have a bit of a second-wind years later ...
Slow and steady wins the race. Charismatic enthusiasm is always at its best, I think, when grounded within a liturgical or sacramental framework or else some form of systematic Reformed-style preaching and teaching approach.
Even then, there is no guarantee that it it's going to stay on track - and perhaps it's unrealistic to expect such a thing ... perhaps there is a natural and healthy tension at the heart of things between the institutional and the charismatic, the spontaneous and the ordered, the planned and scheduled and the immediate ...
What does tend to happen, though, is that any form of charismatic activity becomes 'routinised' over time ... so people then try to shake it all up a bit by pushing the boundaries or introducing new fads ...
It's the faddishness of the whole thing that is the Achille's Heel I think.
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
My experiences largely align with yours, Gamaliel. I was very much part of the Bryn and Kerry Jones' ministry scene in the 90s. I loved much of it and got swept along by it all. I do still remember attending the Builth Wells bible weeks with affection, there was much that was good about them. Even so, I found I couldn't totally buy into it all; the 'flirting' with the Word of Faith scene, touches of the prosperity teaching, the whole Kansas prophet thing, etc, etc. The church I was involved in at the time recognised Bryn as Apostle. It then broke away him and, in my opinion, things got even more weird and troubling and I left the whole church scene completely for years. Reading Prof. Walker's book at that time was really healing for me in a way, as it clarified in a very balanced way both the attractions and pitfalls of the restoration movement.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
To bring it back to the OP, it is worth noting that all of these figures (Bryn Jones etc) have - like Urquhart - ended up heading up their own networks, which have a certain degree of isolation from any other Christian group.
Often centred around an annual festival, with spin offs like own brand worship music, a particular set of authors that are well known inside their movement and so on. Usually the local churches that make up the network tend to have minimal contact with any other churches in their area - and so in some way retain a certain sense of exclusivity.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
That was certainly the case some years ago; but is it still as true today? (Others may be able to comment more accurately than I).
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Usually the local churches that make up the network tend to have minimal contact with any other churches in their area - and so in some way retain a certain sense of exclusivity.
It's certainly true (and frustrating for those of use who are in such churches, but are ecumenically minded) though not all of the lack of contact is due to an isolationist attitude.
With the "stay or move out" debate mentioned above, where churches were started having decided to move out, they tended to start by poaching members from more established congregations, which leaves a substantially bitter taste in those left behind in the older denominations, who are subsequently less keen on ecumenical relations with what the Monty Python team would term "splitters".
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
I still have friends from when I was involved and it seems to me that many of these churches are very keen to build bridges and work with other church groups, for example in street pastor initiatives and providing soup kitchens, etc. Unfortunately, some of them still, however, have an air of condescension, of seeing traditional congregations as, at best, missing out and, at worse, being dead wood in need of drastic pruning. Having said that, though, my experience is very limited to be fair.
[ 06. April 2016, 14:51: Message edited by: Doone ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
With the "stay or move out" debate mentioned above, where churches were started having decided to move out, they tended to start by poaching members from more established congregations, which leaves a substantially bitter taste in those left behind in the older denominations, who are subsequently less keen on ecumenical relations with what the Monty Python team would term "splitters".
The older churches can also be very condescending, vaunting their tradition and "good order" over "those happy-clappy mindlss Evangelicals down the road".
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm clearly "mindlss" - or just not very good at typing! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm clearly "mindlss" - or just not very good at typing!
I assumed you were turning into Gollum .. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The older churches can also be very condescending, vaunting their tradition and "good order" over "those happy-clappy mindlss Evangelicals down the road".
I've been at the sharp end of that, where ecumenism is, de facto, defined as 'Anglican plus Catholic' which always reminds me of this.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, so have I, where - as Baptists - we were regarded by the local Rector (by not by his church members!) as well below the theological salt. Anyway, we're drifting off the point ...
What I do think is interesting is to notice how much the renewal movement influenced even the churches which rejected it: e.g. in music styles, greater informality, lay participation, and informal local ecumenism. Of course Renewal wasn't the only factor; but I think it contributed.
[ 06. April 2016, 15:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The older churches can also be very condescending, vaunting their tradition and "good order" over "those happy-clappy mindlss Evangelicals down the road".
But this situation doesn't necessarily apply - in the example I'm thinking of, the churches weren't necessarily break away groups of any kind.
The surrounding churches that they don't really have contact with tend to be largely similar stylistically.
Admittedly they don't have any particular historical connection with these churches, but they generally tend to mix a lot less than is the case with evangelical churches in the same area.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I see ... but that is also true for some non-charismatic churches such as (e.g.) the Grace Baptists and some Christian Brethren.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I see ... but that is also true for some non-charismatic churches such as (e.g.) the Grace Baptists and some Christian Brethren.
Sure, except the means employed are different. In the case of the ones above, theology. In the case of the latter exclusion via social means.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nice to meet you Doone. I was involved in the Bryn and Keri Jones thing and knew both men fairly well.
I clashed with them towards the end - which wasn't unusual of course - but ended my involvenent on good terms and without rancour.
Incidentally - strictly speaking, Keri should have been Ceri but his Dad couldn't spell Welsh names correctly.
Interestingly enough, in his last few years Bryn was milder and more moderate than he had been ... Keri continued to plough a rather narrow furrow though.
The network all broke up of course - and some former Covenant Ministries personnel went in an even wilder and whackier direction.
I'm still in touch with some folk from those days but it's all a shadow of its former self.
That's a tangent from discussing Colin Urquhart and Kingdom Faith but there are parallels as Chris Stiles has identified.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
Thank you Gamaliel, you've brought back some fond memories.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, so have I, where - as Baptists - we were regarded by the local Rector (by not by his church members!) as well below the theological salt. Anyway, we're drifting off the point ...
Still the case here, I'm afraid, with the added venom of members in the pew too.
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Bringing some threads together.
For (anglo)catholic charismatics the central supernatural act of the Christian life is the sacrifice of the mass. Gifts of the spirit, miraculous healing, raising from the dead, marvellous. But nothing compared to what happens on the altar. At its best this anchors us.
Of course ecumenically that same belief really does create some boundaries. For anglo-catholics and roman catholics. Here the local ecumenical scene tends towards the evangelical and charismatic. I am delighted to be part of it, but I have do to a lot of theological translation work in my head sometimes to make any sense.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, so have I, where - as Baptists - we were regarded by the local Rector (by not by his church members!) as well below the theological salt. Anyway, we're drifting off the point ...
Still the case here, I'm afraid, with the added venom of members in the pew too.
I'm truly sorry to hear that too.
I don't doubt it happens but it's not something I've had direct experience of - either when I was a member of a Baptist church nor in any Anglican churches that I know or have frequented.
Our Baptist church used to go on church weekends-away to an Anglican retreat centre and the very High-Church priest who was chaplain to the nuns at the adjacent priory was nothing but courteous and eirenic.
I don't doubt ExclamationMark's experience though, but at the same time I have come across Baptists over the years who don't believe that Anglicans are 'sincere' because they use set prayers rather than extemporaneous ones (although many Anglicans use both, of course) ... as though written-prayers are somehow inherently less sincere than extemporary ones.
So there can be bad blood - unfortunately - on both sides of the equation.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, but how common is it?
I'm not trying to minimise ExclamationMark's experience, but from what I've seen of liberal, MoR or even High Church Anglicans, there's rarely ill-will or anonomosity - let alone 'venom' - towards non-conformists in general or Baptists in particular.
They tend to reserve 'venom' or ill-feeling towards other Anglicans if anything ...
Yes, it's possible to come across supercillious vicars like the one in Wallace & Grommit but the harshest reaction one might usually encounter is one of bewilderment, misunderstanding or indifference - the latter probably being worse.
Perhaps I've been lucky but by and large, wherever I've lived, most churches of whatever stripe seem to roll along quite well together. If anything, where I am now, it's the evangelical Anglicans who tend to keep themselves aloof, not the liberal, MoR or more Catholic-y ones.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I think it depends on the area and the history. It goes every way. Tensions may be theological, or sometimes down to culture and ethics.
I am passionate about ecumenism. Because in my experience it changes the spiritual atmosphere of a town, city or place.
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
Is it partly a generational thing as well? In my somewhat limited experience, it's often the more elderly who tend to be suspicious of what they term the 'happy clappy lot'. I am in a rural area, though, where the local churches, mostly CofE and a few Methodist, are pretty traditional, with aging congregations, and there is little opportunity for first hand experience of different forms of worship. Ironically, of course, the most thriving (in terms of numbers and outreach programmes, etc) church within a 5 mile radius is Baptist and would be considered to be part of the 'happy clappy' scene.
[ 07. April 2016, 21:07: Message edited by: Doone ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Possibly, but the older I get the less tolerant I have become of certain charismatic emphases myself - but not, I hope, of charismatics as people.y
I didn't interpret ExclamationMark's comments about 'venom' emanating from his local Anglicans as directed towards charismatics specifically, but non-conformists in general.
For whatever reason, EM's Baptist church appears to have been on the receiving end of some hostility from his local Anglican church - which is disappointing and regretable.
I wasn't trying to mitigate that, simply wondering aloud how common this was.
From what EM has said in the past, I wouldn't have his church down as some outrageously 'out there' wild and woolly charismatic outfit.
I wouldn't have blamed anyone for being somewhat suspicious of an outfit like Covenant Ministries, for instance - for all the good stuff there they would have had good grounds for concern.
What I don't 'get' - even from those with a highly sacramental position - is why there should be antipathy or 'venom' towards churches like EM's or Baptist Trainfan's.
You can disagree with people theologically or ecclesiologically without being nasty about it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
/tangent
We attend a MOTR Methodist church, and our kids are at an RC primary school attached to a charismatic RC church. Points up-thread characterising RC charismatics seem to fairly describe things here.
Our 10 yr-old was recently asking me a lot of questions about speaking-in-tongues - not having experienced this at our church or school masses, but on hearing that it sometimes happens at Fr P's wed-night sessions.
When, after me giving some background around pentecost, she innocently started asking 'so, are there people around who can interpret what these people are saying?' I felt I had to get a little stern and add this to questions about holy communion and the sinlessness of Mary which are very welcome, but not at school or in front of Fr P.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I'm not a 'knocker' in all this, though. I'm not a spirit-singer, but when needed I sometimes play in their praise band, and I particularly enjoyed (and enthusiastically signed) a permission slip which came home from school saying that 'I ________ (parent / guardian) would like my baptised child _____ to be prayed with, for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit' ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
In the main, they're good people. We talk a lot about the tree and its fruit with our kids.
[ 07. April 2016, 22:03: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I didn't interpret ExclamationMark's comments about 'venom' emanating from his local Anglicans as directed towards charismatics specifically, but non-conformists in general.
Yes. But some folk in my present church are disparaging of Evangelicals in general, and charismatics in particular - although not "venomously" so.
[ 07. April 2016, 22:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
mark_in_manchester:
But not all speaking in tongues is about prophecy, is it?
Anyway, regarding Methodists, I agree with Doone that on the whole they're likely to be quite a lot older than charismatic evangelical congregations, so there'll inevitably be a cultural gap.
The charismatic evangelical movement has also had less of an impact on contemporary Methodism than on some of the other denominations, so it seems quite alien from the normative Methodist perspective. IME a lot of lay preachers are 'old lefties', and even the middle aged ministers tend to be more on the theological left. (This isn't so in every case, obviously.)
In some areas class and racial differences have also caused some tensions between congregations.
These days a fondness for ecumenicalism has probably tempered Methodist unease and ambivalence about certain other churches. Moreover, I think struggling local congregations have realised that they need other churches in order to have a strong, multi-faceted local witness. I suspect a mutual pay-off in community affairs; the aging traditional congregations benefit by association with the 'coolness' of young, visible evangelicals doing their thing; and the newer (or simply more youthful) congregations benefit from the respectable, stabilising glow of the more traditional congregations.
But it must depend on the local dynamics, demographics and denominational spread involved. Churches in more homogeneous areas perhaps worry more about sheep stealing, and feel themselves to be in competition with each other.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
mark_in_manchester:
But not all speaking in tongues is about prophecy, is it?
For us charismatics it is. Not in the psychic-friends sort of way (i.e. foretelling the future) but in the (arguably perhaps) biblical sense of "speaking for God." I've tried to convince my husband to mediate his interpretations ("I hear God saying, 'I...'" vs. just launching into a first person God-statement) but he resists saying it feels artificial-- I think many/most tongue-speakers will say that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Age of charismatics is an interesting stereoptype issue. I, and most of the charismatics I have known over the years, are in our late 60s and 70s, and are still open to whatever happens though not likely to burst into prophecy in a standard church service.
We (65+) are in fact of the most liberal generation in history -- our parents tended conservative, and the younger lots are tending far more conservative than we are, at least on the issues normally seen as important. Well, perhaps the younger lot are as liberal as we are on certain Dead Horse issues, but I'm thinking church and politics. We, the 65+s are the ones who did all the reforms, in reaction to those now in their late 80s and 90s.
Let me give you an illustration. I, then in my 40s and heavily involved in liberal and charismatic catholic anglicanism, was talking to an earnest woman in her mid 50s. She was trying to tell me that all the "older" people -- by whom she meant those over 65 -- were in love with "the old hymns", some of which she named. I pointed out that I in my lifetime had run across none of them, but that I believed my mother (then in her 70s) and grandmothers (dead, but born in 1885) were indeed familiar with these hymns. They weren't the songs of youth of people then 65, but of their parents.
We forget that stereotypes of who is "old" and what they like have to change. The Stones and the Beatles were the popular bands of my late youth, and anyone who tries to claim that the big bands of the 1930s are the cherished music of my youth needs to get a reality check.
John
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I didn't interpret ExclamationMark's comments about 'venom' emanating from his local Anglicans as directed towards charismatics specifically, but non-conformists in general.
For whatever reason, EM's Baptist church appears to have been on the receiving end of some hostility from his local Anglican church - which is disappointing and regretable.
I wasn't trying to mitigate that, simply wondering aloud how common this was.
From what EM has said in the past, I wouldn't have his church down as some outrageously 'out there' wild and woolly charismatic outfit.
Thanks everyone. The church I serve here is by no means wild and wacky: our theological stance is bog standard conservative evangelical with an emphasis on teaching, preaching and missional expression. We have no issues with women in leadership and currently have able women in such positions.
Yes, we use worship songs, some raise their hands as they sing, we have heard tongues once or twice but we also use an organ! We are also multi racial/cultural and broadly representative of our local community. Our building is used by another church several nights a week who worship in their own language. Several people groups in our church hold services in their own language once a month in the church, attracting others who come from the same background across a wider area.
Why do we find, in a place, held up as an example of ecumenism that the churches together is driven by one theological agenda at the expense of others? I wouldn't want to suggest we are the only ones who are marginalised - there are some who are looked askance at by their own denominations as others here have pointed out can happen. It reflects their theological position.
The upshot of it is that in a growing town we don't see much joined up thinking to meet the changing needs with some groupings spending longer of arguing about boundaries rather do anything. When they do get off that particular fence it can be very frustrating to be told what "they" are going to do now and be expected to join in. We get too busy talking about the ship even before we start to rearrange the deck chairs. There's lots more I could say but that's best kept for anyone who wants to PM me.
As for charismatic renewal,the impact of that here was a mass exodus from the mainstream churches 20 + years ago to new church outfits of various hues from the very ok to the downright bizarre (e.g Prosperity). Like our place some others are open to it but not a lot of it goes on in the established churches. There are lots of them too, most under severe pressure from lack of numbers needed to keep the show running.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
At the risk of personal tangents, this thread is causing me to reflect on what it means to be 'charismatic' or even 'post-charismatic' ...
As John Holding helpfully reminds us, most of the people who were in the first flush of the charismatic renewal in the mainstream denominations in the 1960s and '70s are now getting on a bit ...
And as SvitlanaV2 says, there are age, demographic and socio-economic influences underneath a lot of this stuff - as well as particular 'churchmanships' and theological positions.
Am I still charismatic?
I'm not sure I'd self-identify that way, but in many ways I'd say I was as 'charismatic' as I've always been only with the focus shifted in a broader - and hopefully deeper - direction.
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever these days in attending services where people 'sing in the Spirit', speak in tongues and prophesy.
But that doesn't mean I'm not 'aware' of the presence of God or don't find a sense of the numinous ... but I'd be more likely, I think, to find that in a 'sacred site', an inspiring landscape or in some kind of contemplative or eucharistic / sacramental setting ... but that's more down to where I'm currently 'at' in terms of aesthetic preferences and so on ...
I've 'done' all the other stuff ...
I'm a lot more comfortable with the Orthodox 'panentheist' idea these days - God is present everywhere and fills all things.
Consequently, I'd be inclined to say that there was something 'charismatic' or 'prophetic' about the way EM's church is tackling various social issues in the way it interacts with its community, that there was equally something 'charismatic' about the way that a Church Meeting, say, at Baptist Trainfan's church might resolve an issue or come to some kind of consensus on a decision ...
That there was something 'charismatic' going on when Edward Green and his 'High Church' congregation gain a sense of the Real Presence in the Eucharist (and even when that sense of presence is 'absent' as it were and not apprehended as fully as at other times) ...
I'd even concede ( ) that could well be something genuinely charismatic going on when Mr Cliffdweller does his glossolalia and interpretation stuff ...
But equally, contra most tongues-speakers, I would suggest that much of what passes for 'tongues' is itself pretty artificial - the product of learned behaviour, subtle (or not so subtle) coaching and cues and - dare I say - of dubious value other than as some kind of placebo effect thing or the reinforcement of a shared experience ...
I've mentioned a piece of work before that the sociologist Dr Andrew Walker carried out at a big Pentecostal rally. He interviewed participants afterwards and found that hardly anyone could remember the content of the so-called 'prophecies' decoded from the 'messages' in 'tongues'.
For them, it was sufficient that these things had taken place as they were seen as proof positive that God was really among them. The content was secondary at best - or even irrelevant.
I'm not a cessationist, nor even particularly 'reformed' (small r) or Reformed (big R) these days, nor do I trust a great deal that comes out of the particular stable represented in the video link below - but I can't help but agree with some of the points made:
https://youtu.be/E5wlJZGH1vI
Whatever the case, I still believe in a supernatural - or 'supranatural' dimension - but tend to regard these things are working out through 'normal' providences as it were - rather than in direct, dramatic interventions - although I wouldn't rule such things out necessarily.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
As for charismatic renewal,the impact of that here was a mass exodus from the mainstream churches 20 + years ago to new church outfits of various hues from the very ok to the downright bizarre (e.g Prosperity). Like our place some others are open to it but not a lot of it goes on in the established churches. There are lots of them too, most under severe pressure from lack of numbers needed to keep the show running.
Yes, that is so true of many places. And it has left the mainstream churches severely weakened, in many cases with a whole generation missing, who would now be significant lay leaders. It has also fragmented and polarised the local "Body of Christ". Of course the mainstream churches are by no means blameless: in many cases they were simply not open enough to change and reform.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Consequently, I'd be inclined to say that there was something ... equally something 'charismatic' about the way that a Church Meeting, say, at Baptist Trainfan's church might resolve an issue or come to some kind of consensus on a decision ...
I wish that were more often true! Sighs ...
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've mentioned a piece of work before that the sociologist Dr Andrew Walker carried out at a big Pentecostal rally. He interviewed participants afterwards and found that hardly anyone could remember the content of the so-called 'prophecies' decoded from the 'messages' in 'tongues'.
For them, it was sufficient that these things had taken place as they were seen as proof positive that God was really among them. The content was secondary at best - or even irrelevant.
Which I think is a good response to Cliffdweller's post above.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Age of charismatics is an interesting stereoptype issue. I, and most of the charismatics I have known over the years, are in our late 60s and 70s, and are still open to whatever happens though not likely to burst into prophecy in a standard church service.
<snip>
It is one of the largely unspoken issues, particularly in my church. My housegroup has the lowest average age in the congregation, and I'm the only one under 50 in it.
It seems likely that there'll be fair amount of change in the next 10-20 years or so as the generation that founded new church movement dies off. I wonder if there be a merging of some churches, possibly with Pioneer and Ichthus joining some smaller congregations in a similar way to the URC and Methodists have in some areas. Maybe, I might be wrong.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would suggest that much of what passes for 'tongues' is itself pretty artificial - the product of learned behaviour, subtle (or not so subtle) coaching and cues and - dare I say - of dubious value other than as some kind of placebo effect thing or the reinforcement of a shared experience ...
I am very much on the same page as you as far as this goes - as we have discussed in the past (and I would add to the sentence above 'possible ASMR like response'). My only qualifier is that I'd probably equally substitute 'tongues with all those other examples of the 'numinous' - at least some of the time.
My own experience of the OPs topic - in my case attendance at various 'Faith' conferences, was that at the time they heavily stressed 'getting tongues' as part of their youth ministry, a whole lot of their evening teaching sessions danced at the edges of word-faith teaching, and that at the time wordless singing was heard late at night across the campsite and people attributed it to angelic choirs.
So I'm not hugely surprised at their subsequent direction. I do wonder also whether part of their plausibility structure consisted of the fact that their main speakers were reasonably well spoken and so this got over the natural UK middle-class prejudice against enthusiasm of any kind.
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would suggest that much of what passes for 'tongues' is itself pretty artificial - the product of learned behaviour, subtle (or not so subtle) coaching and cues and - dare I say - of dubious value other than as some kind of placebo effect thing or the reinforcement of a shared experience ...
I am very much on the same page as you as far as this goes - as we have discussed in the past (and I would add to the sentence above 'possible ASMR like response'). My only qualifier is that I'd probably equally substitute 'tongues with all those other examples of the 'numinous' - at least some of the time.
My own experience of the OPs topic - in my case attendance at various 'Faith' conferences, was that at the time they heavily stressed 'getting tongues' as part of their youth ministry, a whole lot of their evening teaching sessions danced at the edges of word-faith teaching, and that at the time wordless singing was heard late at night across the campsite and people attributed it to angelic choirs.
So I'm not hugely surprised at their subsequent direction. I do wonder also whether part of their plausibility structure consisted of the fact that their main speakers were reasonably well spoken and so this got over the natural UK middle-class prejudice against enthusiasm of any kind.
Mm, I tend to agree. I remember, years ago, being told to just switch my brain off and babble for a while and I would soon be speaking in tongues with the rest ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . Sadly, I went along with this for a good while, though I'm normally more discerning. I'm not suggesting that it's all nonsense, though, by any means.
[ 08. April 2016, 10:18: Message edited by: Doone ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The 'singing in the air' or angelic singing thing was a feature of earlier revivals ... and I experienced that myself - or thought I did (?) at the first Bible Week I attended - the Dales Bible Week in 1982.
Someone else heard the same thing. I was on a night-shift as I'd volunteered for the security team (despite being a short, little weedy guy) in order to get there on a subsidised rate.
It had a profound effect on me at the time but after all these years I'm no longer sure that whether what I heard was some kind of atmospheric effect - air-brakes in the distance? some kind of breeze effect? - or what I took it to be ... certainly heard something ... and something that sounded very ethereal and spine-tinglingly numinous ...
There had been reports of this from earlier years - both in the main meetings and late at night when people were asleep - so there could have been an element of suggestibility there - I don't know.
Whatever the case, I don't base my faith on whether it was real, imagined or some kind of combination of the two ...
Like Doone and others, I'm reluctant to write the whole thing off - I certainly saw some things happen that didn't admit of an immediately 'rational' explanation in terms of learned behaviour or responses to platform cues and suggestibility ...
But 9 times out of 10, I'd agree that much of this stuff was induced - with people willing to participate and lay their critical faculities to one side in order to obtain some kind of experience.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
Sadly, I went along with this for a good while, though I'm normally more discerning. I'm not suggesting that it's all nonsense, though, by any means.
No, I agree. I still speak in tongues occasionally, but only in private prayer. I find it helpful when praying in "hard-to-resolve" situations. It's dissociative rather than ecstatic.
I have no problem in believing that tongues is a gift from God which is also learned and improved through use, nor in accepting that it clearly has both a human and divine element.
[ 08. April 2016, 12:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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