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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Rev. Colin Urquhart and the Charismatic Renewal
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That makes sense - although I'm wary of the 'improve through use' thing ..
You can get better at singing scat by practice.
Is the ability to sing scat a spiritual gift?
I can see where you are coming from, though, Baptist Trainfan and the both/and, not either/or part of me wants to agree with you ...
It's a similar issue for those who believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist ... unless they sign up for full-on RC Transubstantiation (as I understand it and I may not have done) then it's a case of this bread and this wine being STILL bread and STILL wine (ie the molecular components have not changed) but also, at the same time, somehow being the Body and Blood of Christ ...
So, I find it a bit problematic. I can still 'speak in tongues' if I want to but these days I tend not to - not because I'm all utilitarian but I no longer find it helpful nor can really see the point ...
I understand what it is supposed to achieve - and yes, I'd agree that it's 'disassociative' rather than 'ecstatic' but these days I'd rather reach for a litany or some set prayers ... although that too can be 'disassociative' to a certain extent ...
I remain wary of attempts to get people to 'speak in tongues' and I'm far more accepting of those instances where it apparently happens spontaneously. I know of a few such instances - with an Anglican nun for instance - in times of stress - in the case of a very brainy theology professor too - equally in a time of stress and in prayer - or with ordinary bods who hadn't been taught, instructed or encouraged to do so.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I still speak in tongues occasionally, but only in private prayer.
I've never quite understood this one, when considered in the light of probably the key passage most charismatic churches cite, 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul says: quote:
Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
If there are no one else about, what does it achieve?
I'm similarly of the sceptical mindset that hears the same set of phonemes (roosh-ka-la-mana-kee....etc) and thinks most, if not all, just comes from aping. The only time I've been aware of a case xenolalia was when I gave directions to someone who asked me in the street and the person I was with looked at me extremely puzzled and thought I was speaking Danish or Swedish, though I thought I was speaking clear English. I don't know for certain what happened; it's something I doubt I'll ever know.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I know people who claim to have spoken in recognised 'unlearned languages' - xenoglossia - or 'xenolalia'? - including my own brother-in-law.
The thing is, though, that we only have people's 'word for it' in such instances ... but then, that applies to lots of other things too.
I find myself largely in agreement with Sipech though ... if it's for use in private, what's the point?
People use analogies like, 'Well, you might use endearing terms to your wife/husband/partner/children etc ...'
Sure, but you don't have an entire 'language' for that - you might have the odd endearing phrase or two but that's about it.
I've come to the conclusion that the apparent Pauline stipulations in 1 Corinthians 14 are so ambivalent and ambiguous as to be of no practical use in terms of determining what is or isn't done in church - other than in general terms - 'let everything be done decently and in order.'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The idea that something has to happen in public or else it's pointless is rather strange to me, especially with regard to how we should pray - I've been told that there are so many different ways to pray, and that they're all valid if they're helpful to us!
We don't all need justification from a (human) audience to the same extent.
[ 08. April 2016, 19:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The idea that something has to happen in public or else it's pointless is rather strange to me, especially with regard to how we should pray - I've been told that there are so many different ways to pray, and that they're all valid if they're helpful to us!
I think you are rather missing the point because you are abstracting something from the hermeneutic tradition within which it exists (part of which is a particular reading of 1 Corinthians 10-14).
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The idea that something has to happen in public or else it's pointless is rather strange to me, especially with regard to how we should pray - I've been told that there are so many different ways to pray, and that they're all valid if they're helpful to us!
We don't all need justification from a (human) audience to the same extent.
This is certainly my experience. I have never prayed in tongues in public, and at this age doubt I ever will. for me it's too intimate and I would become self conscious in a way that's counter productive.
Chris, I'm really not following what you're referring to in your comment? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 08. April 2016, 22:18: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I still speak in tongues occasionally, but only in private prayer.
I've never quite understood this one, when considered in the light of probably the key passage most charismatic churches cite
You need to read the rest of the chapter. quote:
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves (v4) (...) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding (v14-15)
Even if only as a concession, Paul acknowledges the use of tongues for self-edification and 'prayer with the spirit'.
quote:
Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
I am drawn to some extent by the explanation that Paul is actually seeing uninterpreted tongues as a sign of judgement on unbelievers (by comparison with Babel and also a passage in Isaiah (?) which talks about being invaded by a people whose language they don't understand, complete with some "tongues" utterances). This is reinforced by his assertion that if unbelievers come to a meeting with uninterpreted tongues, they will think everyone is mad.
That said, the whole of 1 Cor 14 makes a lot more sense if it is read as, above all, a defence of intelligibility in public worship, rather than as a how-to manual on tongues-speaking and prophecy.
quote:
The only time I've been aware of a case xenolalia was when I gave directions to someone who asked me in the street and the person I was with looked at me extremely puzzled and thought I was speaking Danish or Swedish, though I thought I was speaking clear English. I don't know for certain what happened; it's something I doubt I'll ever know.
Anecdotes of this kind, much closer to Acts 2 than 1 Cor 14, abound; I have a few of my own. Odd, isn't it?
[ 09. April 2016, 06:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
We could start a Kerygmania thread on those verses in 1 Corinthians 14. It need not become Hellish - although discussions between myself and a former Shipmate on the issue invariably did.
FWIW, I agree with Eutychus that the overall thrust of the passage is a call for intelligibility in worship rather than instructions on how to organise a tongues-fest.
As for the rest of the passage, I find it ambivalent, contradictory and like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. I'm not sure anyone is entirely sure what he's actually referring to or talking about.
On the Acts 2 thing and actual languages being employed - I'm not sure such stories 'abound'. If anything, if all the millions of charismatics were actually speaking known languages in a miraculous fashion, then surely we'd have documentary or audio evidence by now? As far as I am aware no serious scientific study has found such a thing.
Conversely, plenty of studies have found glossolalists almost exclusively using phonemes and sounds common in their native languages.
Sure, there are anecdotal accounts of apparent xenoglossy - and they probably aren't uncommon -although 'abound' might be too strong - in circles where there's an expectation for this sort of thing to happen.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - people look out for apparent examples.
Nevertheless ...
Be all that as it may, as far as 'tongues and interpretation' go - I only supposedly 'interpreted' a tongue once. How did any of us know that the apparent interpretation was 'correct'? What criteria do we use?
I could have come out with any number of very general conjectures and apparent 'meanings' - any one of which could or would have been accepted.
As it was, I 'interpreted' the tongue in very general terms - as prayer of deep love and gratitude.
How did I - or anyone else there - know that this was right,wrong, good, bad or indifferent? Anyone with a modicum of biblical sounding language could have come up with the same or similar.
It's all very vague and fluffy and these things mainly act as reinforcements or 'tokens of exchange' for those who already hold to the kind of world-view where this sort of thing is valued and expected. I would posit that very little of it has value or significance beyond that ... rather like Masonic symbolism it only has meaning and significance within its own context.
That's not an analogy I'd push too far other than to observe that any apparent meaning is in the eye of the participants and not necessarily subject to objective evaluation.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the Acts 2 thing and actual languages being employed - I'm not sure such stories 'abound'.
As on other occasions, you have referred to an apparent instance of xenoglossy in your immediate family. Sipech has too. On previous occasions I've reported my puzzled experience of David Carr speaking fluent Québecois or Old French (I lean towards a con trick, but cannot be sure), and I was party to another instance where a French person of Italian extraction started speaking in Kabyle to a Kabyle-speaker, which I have no reason to doubt was genuine.
More research is needed!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure - I'd forgotten the David Carr incident, you had mentioned that.
Yes, more research is needed as there's no smoke without fire, as they say.
Interestingly enough, FWIW I have come across similar stories among the Orthodox where monks on Mt Athos are said to have greeted visitors in their own languages - including Gaelic in one instance - and where (the details vary) other people apparently heard them speaking Greek or whatever ...
I s'pose my default position on these things nowadays is that there are more things in heaven and on earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy ... but there remains a certain amount of ambivalence or ambiguity around these things that behoves us to err on the side of caution.
I've not spoken to my brother-in-law for a while about the particular incident he recounts - but I may well raise it with him at some point.
He's moved to a more liberal position theologically - certainly on Dead Horse issues and so on - but would still probably retain some kind of openness towards the 'charismatic' even though he no longer attends charismatic churches.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think there are explanations of these phenomena. For example, we tend to pick out or interpret the words we hear in a way that makes sense to us - so if someone says a load of gobbledegook which contains words which sound a bit like something we recognise, then we fill in the gaps. Hence not a great surprise that people sometimes hear something they recognise.
I've been around a lot of this kind of thing (including the dog braying, horses, visions, prophecies, tongues (both the stuff which sounds like performance nonsense poetry and the stuff that sounds like it could be a real language)) and I now feel it is all bunkum.
Apart from anything else - it seems to me that it'd be amazingly useful to have people who could communicate to each other without learning a language, and so if the deity really invested people with that gift there would be no arguing about it and it would be highly praised. As it is, most of the time I hear second-hand reports (usually, it seems, actually third hand conspiracy-type stories) and the stuff I've experienced never seems to match the stories. Even when I've been there.
[ 09. April 2016, 10:54: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the Acts 2 thing and actual languages being employed - I'm not sure such stories 'abound'. If anything, if all the millions of charismatics were actually speaking known languages in a miraculous fashion, then surely we'd have documentary or audio evidence by now? As far as I am aware no serious scientific study has found such a thing.
Unfortunately most stories of this kind of thing tend to be anecdotal: "I heard it from my friend who had it on absolute authority from her brother that he'd heard ..." - which is hardly definitive. Equally, there are few medically authenticated cases of lasting organic healing. This is not to say that psychosomatic and, indeed, "inner", healing are not valuable in themselves; but they're not what are being claimed.
FWIW I believe that the first missionaries who went to Congo with the Pentecostal Missionary Union (this must be about a century ago in the Smith Wigglesworth era) thought that "God would give them the language". But he didn't; they had to learn it the hard way!
[ 09. April 2016, 11:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think there are explanations of these phenomena. For example, we tend to pick out or interpret the words we hear in a way that makes sense to us - so if someone says a load of gobbledegook which contains words which sound a bit like something we recognise, then we fill in the gaps. Hence not a great surprise that people sometimes hear something they recognise.
That certainly makes sense - as does subconsciously absorbing things we hear and then reiterating them. For instance, after living in Lisbon for a couple of months I had the classic dream in which everyone was speaking in Portuguese, yet I hardly understood a word. Clearly my mind had picked up stuff which I hadn't yet been taught.
(Mind you, presumably this couldn't be true of the Mt. Athos monks speaking Gaelic - although an less-than-credulous part of me suggests that they may just have learned some international greetings via Linguaphone ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ).
I have never claimed that my 'tongues' are xenoglossy, although I have heard real languages which sound similar. Having studied a bit of linguistics, I am pretty sure that they do include some phonemes which I don't normally use.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
What I heard from David Carr was very definitely some non-standard form of French. If it was a con, it was a good one.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Mmm. Would that be so hard to fake?
Also - why on earth would the deity want Mr Carr to speak in an old language? That's quite a stretch.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Actually, the Congo thing happened earlier than that - with the first US Pentecostal missionaries to India and China. They literally set out by ship fully expecting to come down the gang-plank the other side and to start preaching the Gospel to the Indians and Chinese in their own languages without having had to learn them ...
There were a few indications during the voyage that all was not quite as they expected when they tried to engage lascars, Chinese or Indian cooks and sailors in 'tongues' only to receive funny looks.
Indeed, the whole 'tongues of men and of angels' thing only came about as a form of Pentecostal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13 when the initial missionaries found they couldn't communicate in 'tongues' when they arrived on the mission-field.
Rather than abandon the practice they re-interpreted it as the ability to speak in some kind of unknown prayer-language - 'tongues of angels.'
Even as a fully-paid up tongues-speaking charismatic I was never entirely convinced of that particular interpretation - it's clear from the context that the Apostle Paul is writing hyperbolically - 'look, even if I could speak in angelic languages and could fathom all mysteries - even if I were to give my body over to be burned - and yet had not love ...'
It doesn't necessarily mean that the 'unknown tongues' were 'the tongues of angels'.
I don't pretend to understand what the heck the Apostle Paul is talking about or describing in 1 Corinthians 12 - 14 ... and I don't get overly prescriptive about it these days.
I'm prepared to accept Eutychus's 'take' to a certain extent because he's someone whose judgement I respect - given other things he's investigated and reported on these boards over the years.
And his account of someone speaking Kabyle to a native-Kabyle speaker sounds like a first-hand account. I'd like to know more about that.
On the Mt Athos thing, I don't necessarily give those stories any more credence than Pentecostal ones, say, simply because the Orthodox Church is older and more venerable ...
Nor do I necessarily take accounts of Anglo-Catholic nuns and a venerable university theology professor any more seriously than I would similar accounts I've heard among evangelical Anglicans or among the Brethren.
I'm prepared to hear anyone out on this sort of thing - irrespective of churchmanship.
On the phonemes thing, my comment there was that MOST studies have shown that the vast majority of tongues-speakers use phonemes and linguistic effects that they are used to in their normal speech.
That doesn't mean that there are exceptions to the rule.
For instance, when staying with relatives in Glasgow at one time, I watched a fascinating documentary on Scottish TV about the phenomenon. They'd filmed and recorded all sorts of instances in all sorts of churches around South West Scotland and only found one guy - a prominent pastor - who was actually using phonemes that weren't naturally found in Glaswegian accents ...
Indeed, on an audio level if you like, this guy's 'tongues' sounded most convincing - but they still couldn't match it up with any known language nor did it have the characteristics one would expect of a language used for conventional communication - but how do you work that out? How do you identify grammar, syntax and so on in an unintelligible language-like utterance?
I don't doubt that there are people around, Baptist Trainfan included, whose glossolalia sounds 'more convincing' than others ... back in the day, I was often told that mine did, for instance.
But this is where the 'practice makes perfect thing' comes in. If you are content to go 'angara-bangara-ganera-bangera' and pass that off as 'tongues' then that's what you'll keep doing. But if you start to vary the pattern, introduce new sounds or phonemes - on a subconscious level perhaps - then it will begin to 'fill out' and sound more like a 'proper' language than it might otherwise do.
That, in itself, doesn't 'prove' anything either.
So, what are we left with?
We have some intriguing and tantalising accounts - from Eutychus, from Sipech, from my brother-in-law - of claimed xenoglossy -- either overheard or spoken by themselves ...
We have some verses in 1 Corinthians 12 - 14 which are capable of being interpreted in different ways and where there is no universal agreement on what they actual refer to ...
We have some embarrassing 'angera-bangera-dangera-sondera-hondera' examples ('Untie-me-bow-tie', 'shecameonahonda', 'aveabicardi') ...
And we have, so far, no actual scientific evidence of xenoglossy whatsoever.
The most I've seen any scientific study concede is that some examples are 'language-like' and that 'disassociative' areas of the brain seem to be involved ... indeed, that the parts of the brain that seem to involved in 'speaking in tongues' are those which are associated with things like appreciation of music, with religious feelings or beliefs in general etc ... all of which is fascinating ...
But where does it get us?
I'm no longer sure.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Mmm. Would that be so hard to fake?
Also - why on earth would the deity want Mr Carr to speak in an old language? That's quite a stretch.
This was back in my NewFrontiers days.
As I recall, Carr claimed to have left school at 14 and to have spent his working life prior to entering ministry in local professional football.
He subscribed, I think, to a theological stable that held at least one category of tongues ("of men") to be human languages (I have heard others opine thus), and held his "tongue", claimed to be Old French, up as an example.
I studied Old French at university and knew enough about it to be convinced what he said in prayer was something like it, and understand bits (it was not till later that I discovered Québecois, which is not dissimilar, to French ears ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ), as did another attendee from France at the event, and what I understood was apposite.
Could he have mugged up on Québecois on the quiet? Quite possibly. Would it be uncharacteristic of him? From how I remember his larger-than-life talk and his current website, possibly not. But it would be pretty barefaced with respect to the direction of his ministry nonetheless.
[ 09. April 2016, 11:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry to double-post, but from fairly extensive reading of early Pentecostal history, I'd suggest that the Congolese missions of Willie Burton and others were pretty well-organised, planned and executed by Pentecostal standards.
Burton was no slouch. He made adequate provision for training - for medicine (rather than expecting to miraculously immune from tropical diseases) and so on.
He even took time out to relax by pursuing his hobby of painting water-colours - which attracted some criticism from more 'super-spiritual' colleagues.
To be fair to some of the old-time Pentecostals, they did combine practical nouse with their Pentecostalism ... and that's why I'm still - like Dr Andrew Walker the sociologist - prepared to cut them more slack than certain other charismatic developments.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
More research is needed!
That would be interesting, but of course it wouldn't prove that such phenomena were the work of the Holy Spirit. Or, for those who are convinced, prove that it isn't.
All spiritual phenomena, so it seems, can be reduced to scientific explanations. Believers choose where to place their boundaries, but even rational religion has to face charges of irrationality in the long run.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... how about the Kybale instance, Eutychus?
I've not heard of anyone doing what Carr apparently did ... but I'd certainly heard claims that people could and did speak 'old' versions of languages - ancient Spanish seemed to be a favourite - in both Christian charismatic settings and in occult circles.
The sceptic in me puts that down to the utterances being close enough, but not quite, to recognisable languages so that hearers concluded they were speaking older versions of whatever language it happened to be.
The trouble is, a lot of the anti-tongues stories one hears - as well as the pro-ones - are also often based on second or third hand accounts.
Growing up in South Wales I was familiar with stories of English visitors trying to 'interpret' prayers in Welsh-speaking chapels further west on the assumption that the speakers were 'speaking in tongues' and how they interpretations were invariably well-wide of the mark ...
But these were also second or third-hand accounts ...
Tell us about your Kybale instance ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Even as a fully-paid up tongues-speaking charismatic I was never entirely convinced of that particular interpretation - it's clear from the context that the Apostle Paul is writing hyperbolically - 'look, even if I could speak in angelic languages and could fathom all mysteries - even if I were to give my body
Yes. And I wonder what all those folk who have 1 Cor. 13 at their weddings ("because it's so beautiful") make of that?
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair to some of the old-time Pentecostals, they did combine practical nouse with their Pentecostalism ... and that's why I'm still - like Dr Andrew Walker the sociologist - prepared to cut them more slack than certain other charismatic developments.
Indeed; he credits them with a great deal of common-sense or, as he puts it, "working-class nous"!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
And his account of someone speaking Kabyle to a native-Kabyle speaker sounds like a first-hand account. I'd like to know more about that.
It was about 20 years ago in my front room, in a "Toronto" meeting. I knew both people involved well, but have lost touch with both since.
The tongue-speaker was from a Pentecostal background, very intellectually sharp, highly strung but normally not into ecstatic states. That evening she really and unusally was, and went round praying in tongues for different people.
The guy she prayed for in this instance was a recent Muslim convert (through a vision as I recall), and a leading academic in his field. He related afterwards that what she said, in Kabyle, amounted to something along the lines of "you lazy dumbass, stop being a Christian in word and not in deed".
She is of Italian extraction and I'm confident she did not naturally speak Kabyle and would not be given to lying. A plus point in favour of authenticity in my mind: the message did not consist of trees and waterfalls...
quote:
We have some embarrassing 'angera-bangera-dangera-sondera-hondera' examples ('Untie-me-bow-tie', 'shecameonahonda', 'aveabicardi') ...
You forgot "calorgasheater..."
As I understand it glossolalia as ecstatic religious utterance is not limited to Christianity. To me that makes it morally and spiritually neutral (a bit like falling over a.k.a. being slain in the Spirit). Can God work through it? I think so. Can it be faked/manipulated? I think so too.
This may not be a reference in view of his misdeeds, but former Anglican Bishop Peter Ball is quoted by Adrian Plass as saying he loved speaking in tongues, because he always felt that the only person you could talk complete nonsense to was someone you were best of friends with.
And finally, as I've said before, Stoo's thread speaking in tongues in Heaven many years ago is the one time I've actually hurt myself laughing at something posted here.
[ 09. April 2016, 11:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But this is where the 'practice makes perfect thing' comes in. If you are content to go 'angara-bangara-ganera-bangera' and pass that off as 'tongues' then that's what you'll keep doing. But if you start to vary the pattern, introduce new sounds or phonemes - on a subconscious level perhaps - then it will begin to 'fill out' and sound more like a 'proper' language than it might otherwise do.
I agree entirely.
quote:
The most I've seen any scientific study concede is that some examples are 'language-like' and that 'disassociative' areas of the brain seem to be involved ... indeed, that the parts of the brain that seem to involved in 'speaking in tongues' are those which are associated with things like appreciation of music, with religious feelings or beliefs in general etc ... all of which is fascinating ...
Which is an amplification of what I said in my post above.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It would be interesting to compare our bookshelves some time.
Along with both editions of Walker's book, and the one by Tom Smail Gamaliel mentioned, somewhere I have "With signs following" by one Stanley Frodsham, which is cover-to-cover anecdotes of people engaging in xenoglossy in the wake of the Azusa street revival (for the latest updates on that, see here in Hell - it's the 110th anniversary today, as Bethel et al. have noticed).
None of the anecdotes are properly sourced and it all sounds about as reliable as the angelic singing mentioned upthread, but still...
Finally (for now), I must have told the story of a service in our church plant here in France when it first got started in the early 1990s and before it went charismatic. A visitor from the UK started praying gibberish, and I thought "help, he's praying in tongues, what do we do???".
It was some time before I realised he was praying in heavily Geordie-accented English (which nonetheless required interpretation, albeit more reliably, perhaps, than from tongues of angels).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Growing up in South Wales I was familiar with stories of English visitors trying to 'interpret' prayers in Welsh-speaking chapels further west on the assumption that the speakers were 'speaking in tongues' and how they interpretations were invariably well-wide of the mark ...
Sorry, can't resist one more anecdote.
When my staunchly anti-charismatic parents-in-law went to church on holiday in Wales, they split over this issue.
My father-in-law overrode his qualms and went to the English-speaking pentecostals, after checking at the door that "there won't be any funny business [i.e. speaking in tongues], now, will there?" to the lasting embarassement of Mrs Eutychus, a little girl at the time.
His wife, meanwhile, opted to go to the Welsh-speaking (but 'sound') baptists - and sit through an entire service in a foreign language.
[ 09. April 2016, 12:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But this is where the 'practice makes perfect thing' comes in. If you are content to go 'angara-bangara-ganera-bangera' and pass that off as 'tongues' then that's what you'll keep doing. But if you start to vary the pattern, introduce new sounds or phonemes - on a subconscious level perhaps - then it will begin to 'fill out' and sound more like a 'proper' language than it might otherwise do.
I agree entirely.
quote:
The most I've seen any scientific study concede is that some examples are 'language-like' and that 'disassociative' areas of the brain seem to be involved ... indeed, that the parts of the brain that seem to involved in 'speaking in tongues' are those which are associated with things like appreciation of music, with religious feelings or beliefs in general etc ... all of which is fascinating ...
Which is an amplification of what I said in my post above.
Fair enough, Baptist Trainfan ... I was both trying to post complementary material and to 'challenge' you - mildly of course, at the same time.
Because to my way of thinking now, if 'tongues' is something that can be developed through practice, it's status as a 'spiritual gift' is somewhat diminished ...
Or is that rather binary of me?
The point is, I could make a rather impressive show of speaking in tongues if I wanted to - I'm loquacious enough - and as I've said to our local vicar who wants to move the parish in a full-on charismatic direction - if it's prophecies he wants then I could give him a fairly convincing-sounding one (sans trees and waterfalls, Eutychus ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) every week for the next six months ...
But where would that get us?
The point being, of course, that in the general scheme of things the bar is set so low for these apparent manifestations of the Spirit that almost anything can pass muster.
Give me half an hour and I could come back with some very biblically-sounding 'prophecies' and apparent 'words' which might sound the part but which would simply be something I'd cooked up for the occasion ...
That said, there is the issue of 'unction' - or what some used to call 'the anointing' ... which generally seemed to be some kind of adrenalin rush or overflow of nervous energy.
I went through a phase where my right arm would start to tremble and flap almost uncontrollably during 'Toronto-style' meetings and I'd wave my hand over people and they'd fall over. I was quite taken by this, initially ... I'd arrived, I'd got the power ... I was operating under the anointing ...
But then I realised I was rather enjoying the whole thing - and also came to the conclusion that it was self-fulfilling to an extent - people took this behaviour as some kind of cue and responded accordingly.
So I stopped doing it.
Can God work in and through glossolalia and these other things? Yes, I believe he can ... but I'm not in a big hurry to go back to it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because to my way of thinking now, if 'tongues' is something that can be developed through practice, it's status as a 'spiritual gift' is somewhat diminished ...
Or is that rather binary of me?
Yes, I think it is. For surely any gift (eg music, preaching) can and should be improved through use. And didn't Paul tell Timothy to "stir up" the gifts he possessed? (Or do you think that "charismata" fall into a different category?)
quote:
But then I realised I was rather enjoying the whole thing - and also came to the conclusion that it was self-fulfilling to an extent - people took this behaviour as some kind of cue and responded accordingly.
Yes, that was certainly true of Toronto, too - and, indeed, of things like Stigmata. I always wondered if Toronto "falling" could happen in a church with hard floors and pews, as the cue of "taking away the chairs" was then absent (and you'd be afraid of bumpimg yur head!)
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I always wondered if Toronto "falling" could happen in a church with hard floors and pews, as the cue of "taking away the chairs" was then absent (and you'd be afraid of bumpimg yur head!)
Well I can answer this one: I "fell over" Toronto-style in a Cathedral and bounced off the stone furniture.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I was out for several minutes but no pain. I'm guessing I somehow managed to collapse in a way that lead to a bounce rather than hurting myself. Or something.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I think actually that people "crumpled" - i.e. fell in a very gentle and relaxed way.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
It happened to me back in 1982 without ever having seen it before - but I had heard of it.
I've certainly known it happen to people who weren't expecting it or who weren't obviously 'primed' - but there might still have been an element of suggestibility ... who knows?
In my case, I wasn't unconscious but was in command of my faculties - but was speechless for a few moments. I also felt what I can only describe as a 'cleansing' sensation and a kind of 'holy euphoria'.
It was never really encouraged or approved of in the circles I moved in - but there were occasional outbreaks, in 1984 and 1987 - and then it became de-rigeur in 1994/95.
By then, there was very much a 'Toronto liturgy' which was very easy to set up and replicate.
As for whether charismata are if a different order to other 'gifts' such as musical ability, artistic or sporting talent etc ... well, I think there is a link and a continuum between them but I'd somehow expect something with a purported supernatural origin to consist of rather more than 'angara-bangera-shondera-hondera' with a few more trills and flourishes thrown in for added 'authenticity' surely?
Otherwise, aren't we in danger of debasing the coinage?
I mean, you don't even have to be a person of faith to be able to 'speak in tongues' if that's all there is to it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It happened to me back in 1982 without ever having seen it before - but I had heard of it.
...
In my case, I wasn't unconscious but was in command of my faculties - but was speechless for a few moments. I also felt what I can only describe as a 'cleansing' sensation and a kind of 'holy euphoria'.
I think that was quite common. I can't speak for myself as I never experienced it (and only saw it once or twice).
quote:
By then, there was very much a 'Toronto liturgy' which was very easy to set up and replicate.
Absolutely - the "formalisation of charismata" perhaps? Definitely recognised in two books on the subject which came out at the time, one being Porter & Richter's "The Toronto blessing—or is it?" and the other being Patrick Dixon's "Signs of Revival" (which spent more time AFAIR analysing the "Blessing" in terms of altered states of consciousness, interestingly as it was written by someone who was within the charismatic movement).
quote:
As for whether charismata are if a different order to other 'gifts' such as musical ability, artistic or sporting talent etc ... well, I think there is a link and a continuum between them but I'd somehow expect something with a purported supernatural origin to consist of rather more than 'angara-bangera-shondera-hondera' with a few more trills and flourishes thrown in for added 'authenticity' surely?
...
I mean, you don't even have to be a person of faith to be able to 'speak in tongues' if that's all there is to it.
But, again, is that being a bit too binary? Might there not be a continuum between "faith/not faith" and between "spiritual/natural gift"? I don't know, although I absolutely take the point about "debasing the coinage". Ultimately there are much more important things in the Christian faith (such as sacrificial service) - not that you'd have thought so from the way that some folk were talking back in the 70s/80s!
Which perhaps us gets us back to the OP? Or to Bishop Butler's famous comment that "Enthusiasm is a horrible thing" - although that of course came two centuries earlier?
[ 09. April 2016, 16:26: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
PS Re. charismatic "liturgy". At one point, many moons ago, I attended a "traditional" Pentecostal church. The organist - a level-headed fellow and one of the Deacons - once confided in me and said, "We think we're open to the leading of the Spirit. But I can tell you, to within about three minutes, who is going to speak in tongues and what they're going to say". He was right; but, unlike many other people in that church, he didn't write off traditional denominations and was in fact very appreciative of Anglican liturgy.
All I'm saying is that every group rapidly develops its liturgical norms and, hence, its "signals" about "what happens when". True of the Brethren Assembly I attended while a student, too.
[ 09. April 2016, 16:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In my case, I wasn't unconscious but was in command of my faculties - but was speechless for a few moments.
I was at a service where people were going down following a touch from the man of God. One of those who went down jumped back to his feet and said "You pushed me over. Why did you push me?".
I used to fall over just to fulfill expectations. I never had the confidence to say anything so blatant though.
I heard a story about a Quaker service where someone was bringing a friend who had been encouraged to contribute something (I forget what). He had asked when he should share and was told to do so when the spirit moved him. He asked when that might be and was told "the feeling is very similar to the one you might get when I poke you in the ribs".
I think you have to be able to be critical and laugh at yourself in these sorts of situations. There is bound to be messiness and humanness in religions prizing spontaneity and spiritual happenings, and if it is all taken too earnestly and seriously then the required rationalizations cause too much cognitive dissonance.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because to my way of thinking now, if 'tongues' is something that can be developed through practice, it's status as a 'spiritual gift' is somewhat diminished ...
Or is that rather binary of me?
Possibly.
If we think of it as substantially no different than the non-ecstatic gifts-- can't preaching and teaching be developed thru practice? Even "helps"-- showing compassion-- gets better as we get used to encountering people with different sorts of needs, get more comfortable hanging out in hospitals or prisons or shelters. So there's no reason to think that tongues or healing wouldn't have a similar sort of learning curve.
Rather, I think we get closer to the problem-- and the discomfort we get with "coaching" re tongues-- in the 2nd half of your post:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The point is, I could make a rather impressive show of speaking in tongues if I wanted to - I'm loquacious enough - and as I've said to our local vicar who wants to move the parish in a full-on charismatic direction - if it's prophecies he wants then I could give him a fairly convincing-sounding one (sans trees and waterfalls, Eutychus ... ) every week for the next six months ...
But where would that get us?
The point being, of course, that in the general scheme of things the bar is set so low for these apparent manifestations of the Spirit that almost anything can pass muster.
But then I realised I was rather enjoying the whole thing - and also came to the conclusion that it was self-fulfilling to an extent - people took this behaviour as some kind of cue and responded accordingly.
So I stopped doing it.
Can God work in and through glossolalia and these other things? Yes, I believe he can ... but I'm not in a big hurry to go back to it ...
This seems to hit on what Paul is concerned about in 1 Cor. 12-14. Interesting that he never seems to say that whatever the Corinthians were doing that was unloving/ "clanging cymbals", he never says they weren't spiritual gifts. Rather, he seems to be saying they're worthless spiritual gifts.
And it seems just as valid whether you're talking about speaking in tongues or preaching/teaching (or posting on the Ship)-- which can be done in a way that is all about proclaiming/ pointing to Christ-- or can be all about wowing the crowd with my rhetorical wit.
So I would say we probably should take our spiritual gifts seriously, nurture and develop them, whether mundane or ecstatic. But we should also be always on guard constantly for any inner whiff of pride, show, or artifice.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure - good observations here.
@Baptist Trainfan, I have a fair bit of sympathy with your position - but it's not generally what is acknowledged or claimed in relation to charismata - other than in 'second naivety' circles, tongues and prophecy tend to be seen as unmediated and spontaneous phenomena rather than a skill that can be developed - such as icon painting, choral singing, preaching, bell-ringing etc - for all the workshops, seminars and so on that ostensibly teach people how to 'do the stuff.'
But it's all academic as far as I'm concerned because I don't go round trying to prophecy and so on these days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I feel that the Lord would say to us that some of us have lost our first love. We have lost the hotness of the spirit and moved into luke-warmness. We must return to the gifts that he gave us and not be spat out. But he is here for you tonight if you are willing to return. Now is the hour of renewal.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Cross-posted with Cliffdweller ...
Fair enough, but the things you've mentioned - acts of service, preaching, teaching and so on - are for other people's benefit.
How is a 'personal prayer language' of benefit to anybody else? Unless by 'building ourselves up we are in a better position to serve others ...
How do we 'improve' or ability to speak in dissociative and unintelligible utterances?
How do we 'interpret' them abd to what purpose?
I'm sure people found it 'helpful' when I 'interpreted' that 'tongue' that time - but the result would have been the same if I'd given one of half a dozen stock responses about God's love and care.
How could I have 'improved' the quality of the interpretation as it were? There's criteria for evaluating preaching, teaching, forms of social care, iconography, hymnody etc. What criteria is there for decoding or interpreting/evaluating prayers or 'messages' in tongues?
Pentecostalism has moved the goal-posts on this one since the early proponents realised that all was not as it seemed and they weren't actually speaking unlearned languages after all.
Whatever one thinks of medieval hagiographies - and I don't take them literally - at least stories of St David being enabled to speak in other languages to help him on his pilgrimage to Rome has got some 'point' to it.
I'm not saying that all contemporary charismatic and Pentecostal manifestations lack point and purpose - but there's a lot of sound and fury signifying not a great deal.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Which would equally apply to the RCC as it had a 'reverend gentleman' leading it the last time I looked, or to the Baptists as they have reverend gentlemen - and ladies - and the Methodists, and ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The sceptic in me puts that down to the utterances being close enough, but not quite, to recognisable languages so that hearers concluded they were speaking older versions of whatever language it happened to be.
Here's the thing though I would be equally as skeptical about the whole thing as you are - extraordinary claims demanding extraordinary evidence and all that.
OTOH, I'm willing to grant (as I suspect are you) that it is possible for God to do this miraculously, so we are really down to quibbling about whether *this* particular instance of all instances is genuine.
Thing is though - as again I'm sure you'll agree, even if this instance is true, then it's still very far away from being sufficient evidence to adduce a more general practice in the way that is being done.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Cross-posted with Cliffdweller ...
Fair enough, but the things you've mentioned - acts of service, preaching, teaching and so on - are for other people's benefit.
How is a 'personal prayer language' of benefit to anybody else? Unless by 'building ourselves up we are in a better position to serve others ...
How do we 'improve' or ability to speak in dissociative and unintelligible utterances?
hmmm... I know for myself, the more I engage in the practice (which I don't all that often), the more I am able to benefit from it. Which is vague-- again, for me, it's such a personal thing, it's hard to say much more. So I do think there's something to "practice" here-- although not really "perfecting". I've never been "coached"-- never prayed in tongues in front of another person-- so I don't know how helpful that would be, although like you I'm skeptical-- although I'm not sure particularly why.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How do we 'interpret' them abd to what purpose?
I'm sure people found it 'helpful' when I 'interpreted' that 'tongue' that time - but the result would have been the same if I'd given one of half a dozen stock responses about God's love and care.
How could I have 'improved' the quality of the interpretation as it were? ...What criteria is there for decoding or interpreting/evaluating prayers or 'messages' in tongues?
I've never been "given" an interpretation, so I'm out of my experience there, and having to rely on 2nd hand data/ extrapolation.
The closest I've come to "interpretation" would really be discernment-- when I've felt sure that God was speaking to me (which for me hasn't ever come thru tongues-- that seems to be about something else... go figure). Early on, someone suggested keeping a journal when you think God is speaking to you, and then checking back later to see if you still felt that way. The idea wasn't to be negative about getting it wrong, but really the opposite-- the notion that distinguishing God's voice from other thoughts/"voices" in your head was a learned skill and some trial-and-error was useful. I have found that to be very helpful-- in part because it means "getting it wrong" is OK (unless you're, you know, sacrificing Isaac on the mountain or something)-- and makes me more willing to acknowledge that. While I don't see any growth in the frequency of discernment (still relatively rare and not something that can be manipulated on demand) but I have grown in confidence when I do feel I'm hearing from God.
Possibly interpretation could work like that? If it did (not saying it does, just noodling out loud) then probably best to stick to interpreting one's own private tongues for awhile before off-roading into others'...
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Pentecostalism has moved the goal-posts on this one since the early proponents realised that all was not as it seemed and they weren't actually speaking unlearned languages after all.
Yes. Which could be taken as "changing the goalposts"-- i.e. rewriting history to fit with the data. Or it could be taken as being open to new data wherever it comes from (including science) and adjusting what you understand about the Spirit based on new data. So to some degree the fact that Pentecostals (or some anyway) are open to this data which comes thru linguistics/ science is a sign of real progress.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Possibly.
If we think of it as substantially no different than the non-ecstatic gifts-- can't preaching and teaching be developed thru practice?
There are vanishingly few things where 'practice' consists of repeating what you do ad-naseuam (and probably none when you actually ask someone who is practiced in the field). It's far far more deliberate than that.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Possibly.
If we think of it as substantially no different than the non-ecstatic gifts-- can't preaching and teaching be developed thru practice?
There are vanishingly few things where 'practice' consists of repeating what you do ad-naseuam (and probably none when you actually ask someone who is practiced in the field). It's far far more deliberate than that.
I'm not really sure what you mean or are thinking of here. It seems to me that for MOST things-- including the ones I mentioned-- practice is beneficial. And most every sort of learning-- whether reading a book, sitting in a classroom, or being mentored in a hands-on sort of way-- involves asking someone who is practiced in the field to show you the ropes. What am I not following???
otoh, as I said, I'm fairly skeptical about coaching re tongues even though I've never experienced it and am not really sure even why I find the notion offputting. Maybe it's because for me it is so personal.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm not really sure what you mean or are thinking of here. It seems to me that for MOST things-- including the ones I mentioned-- practice is beneficial.
I didn't claim that practice wasn't beneficial. However, practice is rarely - if ever - just a case of repeating a 'final product' over and over again.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Thing is, Cliffdweller, was I 'given' the interpretation or did I simply interject with a few spiritual sounding platitudes in order to 'resolve' the issue of there being a 'tongue' with no apparent 'interpretation.'
Why spiritualise it? It's more likely to have been something we were makibg up.
I don't 'feel' any more or less spiritual now I'm not that interested in 'tongues' and prophecy and so on in the way I was when I was a fervent card-carrying charismatic.
Sure, religious enthusiasm can lead to boldness in witness and to fervency in prayer, worship and service - but there's an element of self-fulfilling prophecy and placebo effect about it.
The same applies, I suspect to praying the rosary or use of the 'Jesus Prayer'.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm not really sure what you mean or are thinking of here. It seems to me that for MOST things-- including the ones I mentioned-- practice is beneficial.
I didn't claim that practice wasn't beneficial. However, practice is rarely - if ever - just a case of repeating a 'final product' over and over again.
Again, I'm not sure what you mean.
I've been preaching for 20 years. But right now I'm preparing for my sermon by doing precisely that-- repeating the 'final product' over and over again. To some degree I'm perfecting-- finding a phrase that doesn't work or is confusing. But mostly I'm just repeating it as is enough to feel more confident in it.
But again, otoh, I'm not sure repeating nonsense syllables over and over is helpful-- but again, not quite sure why I'm put off by the notion. I'm pretty sure that's all I'm doing when I pray in tongues (although I believe the Spirit is doing something in and thru those nonsense syllables). So why does the notion of someone coaching me to do that sound so off-putting? I'm really not sure why-- but it is.
[ 09. April 2016, 22:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
.. or to the Baptists as they have reverend gentlemen - and ladies - and the Methodists, and ...
You're saying that the Baptists have gentlemen?
Is outrage!
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