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Source: (consider it) Thread: Can the Queen disinvite Trump?
Gramps49
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My son and I got into a long discussion over the weekend about the petition to disinvite Trump to visit the Queen. He argued that since PM May already made the invite, the Queen has to honor it. However, my argument is that the Queen has the right to chose who she will or will not see, especially concerning the very unpopular Trump immigration ban.

Will the Queen be honor bound to the PM or will she reflect the will of her people?

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:


Will the Queen be honor bound to the PM or will she reflect the will of her people?

The last poll I saw on it suggested that "the will of her people" (TM) was to let him come. Don't confuse the views of liberals posting on SoF (with which I associate myself wholeheartedly) with the reality on the ground.

Anyway, if the PM says it's happening, it's happening. Much as we may wish it otherwise, it's unthinkable that the Queen would overrule the govt on this. Publicly anyway. If the govt wanted to come up with a face saving way of rowing back from it then that's where it would have to come from. HMQ is not about to stand precedent on its head by going against the govt.

Sorry about that.

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DaleMaily
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My feeling is that she will have essentially have to meet him so long as her government wishes to receive him. I imagine that she could voice her objections to the government in private (just make sure Michael Gove isn't within hearing distance...) and the Palace probably could make the visit as short as possible, but given she has entertained world leaders who have violated human rights on a grand scale, which Trump is yet to do, I can't see her kicking up a fuss about seeing Trump.

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Pigwidgeon

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It would be a shame if she woke up with a 24-hour cold that morning...

[Biased]

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, after wining and dining Ceausescu, I can't see the problem really. She will obey the govt.

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Rocinante
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I have heard that the proper protocol was not followed (May essentially announced the visit at a press conference without briefing or consulting the palace) and Her Maj is very much Not Amused.
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Augustine the Aleut
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Queens do as they are advised by their prime ministers. However, it's entirely conceivable that Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom will receive Mr Trump in London, but Her Majesty the Queen of Australia (either in person in Canberra or as represented by her Governor General) will decline to do so (should he have the nerve to travel to Oz).
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Brenda Clough
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Someone should knit HM a pussyhat. You could get a tiara over it.

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Alan Cresswell

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AIUI, the invite for a state visit has been offered and accepted. Therefore, withdrawing it (by the UK government, as noted the Queen doesn't have a say) would become a major diplomatic snub so is very unlikely to happen.

However, I'm not aware of any date having been suggested and as the various flunkies on both sides compare diaries to find a suitable date that could result in a fairly lengthy delay in the visit (though highly unlikely to be the 4 years needed until he's out of office, unfortunately). But, I can imagine Sir Humphrey suddenly noticing an early date being available should the President reverse some of his decisions, and not noticing it if he doesn't.

Finally, does anyone know whether the Queen has to host him on a state visit, or could that honour be passed to another senior royal? There could be some interesting conversations if it was passed to Prince Charles. Especially if a venue could be found with some wind turbines on the skyline.

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mr cheesy
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Possibly not, but the Speaker of House of Commons* just barred Trump from addressing Parliament in Westminster Hall for his "racism and sexism"

* not a gov position.

Extraordinary.

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Bishops Finger
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According to this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38884604

Speaker Bercow says he is 'opposed' to Trump addressing Parliament (and I daresay a few MPS might well concur), so the question perhaps is how far does the Speaker's influence extend as regards 'barring'?

And it might not be too fine an idea to put Pussygrabber too close to a wind farm - wouldn't do his Magic Hair much good...

God help us, he might end up looking like Benny Hinn... [Eek!]

*sings*

'We shall overcomb, we shall overcomb....'

IJ

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Pigwidgeon

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I always thought he bore more resemblance (coiffure-wise) to Boris Johnson.

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mr cheesy
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I was listening, he said decisions on Westminster Hall are made on consensus between the Speaker of the HoC, the Speaker of the Lords and some Sarjeant from the Parliamentary authorities.

Implication being if the Speaker objects, it doesn't happen.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I always thought he bore more resemblance (coiffure-wise) to Boris Johnson.

If a tool has a similar purpose, it will have a similar appearance.

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rolyn
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Why would the Queen wish to snub a democratically elected leader from a Country on which the UK has depended heavily in the past and still does now.

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quetzalcoatl
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Bercow certainly didn't mince his words about Trump, and mentioned racism and sexism, and attacks on the judiciary. I notice that the opposition benches applauded thunderously, while the govt side were silent mainly. I don't think they like Bercow.

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Mudfrog
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What I can smell is a load of hypocritical bullshit - from the editor of the Guardian up to the Speaker of the House of Commons.

Why should The President of The United States not receive a full state visit?

Did anyone protest the invitation to the various other leaders of the world who have actual blood n their hands?

No.
It's just fashionable at the moment to condemn Trump.

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Anselmina
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Interesting to know what kind of conversation Trump would have with Phil the Greek.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Why should The President of The United States not receive a full state visit?

Because of the sexism and racism.

quote:
Did anyone protest the invitation to the various other leaders of the world who have actual blood n their hands?
Not all leaders get to speak in the Houses of Parliament.

As to the state visit - not all leaders get that either.

quote:
No.
It's just fashionable at the moment to condemn Trump.

Yeah. That might be because of his current activities as the leader of the most powerful country in the world.

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Schroedinger's cat

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I think the speaker does have the right to say who can and cannot speak in the house. He is able to bar an MP for bad behaviour.

The Queen, as has been said, couldn't disinvite Trump. She could explain to Theresa that he should be disinvited. Or that should Mrs May be so unreasonable as to do such a thing again, Her Majesty would be Very Unhappy. Which is the equivalent of tearing her off a very blue strip.

I think it is fair to say that Mrs May made a Very Bad Decision when she invited Trump. I suspect that she will not make such a Bad Decision again.

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quetzalcoatl
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I thought that there have been lots of protests over state visits, e.g. former POWs stood with their backs to Hirohito; there were protests over Putin and the Chinese leaders, and the Saudis. Somebody actually threw themselves under Putin's car. But demonstrations over Trump will probably be huge.

[ 06. February 2017, 17:43: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

The Queen, as has been said, couldn't disinvite Trump. She could explain to Theresa that he should be disinvited. Or that should Mrs May be so unreasonable as to do such a thing again, Her Majesty would be Very Unhappy. Which is the equivalent of tearing her off a very blue strip.


I'm not really sure that the Queen could even do that. Is it known that the Queen has ever done such a thing before? I know that there are periodic audiences with the Queen, but it seems highly unlikely that there would be no constitutional crisis if it was known that the Crown had "explained to the PM" what should or shouldn't be done.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Did anyone protest the invitation to the various other leaders of the world who have actual blood n their hands?

Personally, no. But, there were substantial protests over state visits by several other world leaders. This isn't new, though the advent of social media has probably resulted in more people having their say. Plus, we expect civilised behaviour from an American leader, so abuses of human rights by an American President is more shocking than (say) the Chinese President (not that that stopped protests over the visit by Bush).

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quetzalcoatl
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One of my memories of a protest over a Chinese visit, is that the police tried to cover up pro-Tibet signs, and even threatened arrest of demonstrators.

As I mentioned, the Hirohito visit became famous, because not only did former POWs stand with their back to him, but wore red gloves (to symbolize blood), and whistled Colonel Bogey.

[ 06. February 2017, 18:16: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Why should The President of The United States not receive a full state visit?

Because of the sexism and racism.

If the Ceausescus, the Putins, the Chinese and the Emir of Kuwait all qualify, I query why President Trump shouldn't.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Plus, we expect civilised behaviour from an American leader, so abuses of human rights by an American President is more shocking than (say) the Chinese President (not that that stopped protests over the visit by Bush).

Do we not risk having double-standards here?
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Brenda Clough
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The reason it is particularly important to diss the Tiny Fingered One at every turn is that this is the only way to communicate with him. Today he announced that all negative polls were rigged against him; he already does not read although he devours TV. His motivations revolve solely around rankings and prestige. The Queen can communicate with him in a way that we Americans can only manage with a million women in pussyhats screaming at his gate.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Bercow certainly didn't mince his words about Trump, and mentioned racism and sexism, and attacks on the judiciary. I notice that the opposition benches applauded thunderously, while the govt side were silent mainly. I don't think they like Bercow.

Widely thought of on those benches as an ego-centric, vain little man, I suspect (and I'd agree with them).

But I'm curious about the opposition to President Trump addressing Parliament in Westminster Hall. We learnt recently that he is bathophobic, which is apparently a fear of depths, including staircases. An address in Westminster Hall involves the speaker speaking from half-way up a flight of stairs. If you don't like the guy, that's presumably exactly where you'd want to put him for a couple of hours?

[ 06. February 2017, 19:00: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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Stercus Tauri
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Why should The President of The United States not receive a full state visit?

Did anyone protest the invitation to the various other leaders of the world who have actual blood n their hands?

Could it possibly be time to stop welcoming vile people as if they were acceptable statesmen/women? Is precedent a sufficient reason for continuing this pretence? If it is, then how the blazes do I explain this to my grandchildren? I'll just tell them that I shared the mass delusion, and everything will be fine.

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Gee D
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HM will do as her Prime Minister advises her - she always has and will continue to do so. That has left her in unpleasant situations in the past - the Ceascescus being only one couple for whom doing her job must have been very difficult.

Nothing to sop her letting the PM know what she thinks - and as the PM has a weekly audience, I'd be very surprised if the topic had not been raised before the Washington visit. I've already given one certainty; another is that HM will not disclose what she said to the PM. Not at all sure about the reverse though.

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Pigwidgeon

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Rather than huge crowds of protestors, I'd love to see empty streets and sidewalks/pavements. I know it won't happen, but for him to be totally ignored would be wonderful. If he sees big crowds (even with signs and pussy hats), he'll just brag about how he was greeted by the biggest crowds ever.

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quetzalcoatl
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I think for Hirohito, along some sections of the crowd, there was dead silence, but also backs turned.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One of my memories of a protest over a Chinese visit, is that the police tried to cover up pro-Tibet signs, and even threatened arrest of demonstrators.

As I mentioned, the Hirohito visit became famous, because not only did former POWs stand with their back to him, but wore red gloves (to symbolize blood), and whistled Colonel Bogey.

Hirohito had only one big ball?

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quetzalcoatl
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The other was in the Albert Hall.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems highly unlikely that there would be no constitutional crisis if it was known that the Crown had "explained to the PM" what should or shouldn't be done.

What's the worst that could happen? Would she be dishonored? At her age, and with her history behind her? I say go for it, Queenie, old gal.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems highly unlikely that there would be no constitutional crisis if it was known that the Crown had "explained to the PM" what should or shouldn't be done.

What's the worst that could happen? Would she be dishonored? At her age, and with her history behind her? I say go for it, Queenie, old gal.
No, the PM would be dishonoured, and might be brought down. The monarchy would be under severe pressure also.

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Gramps49
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Why would a President of the United States not receive a state visit (to the UK)?

1) Because he was not elected by the majority of the people? The Electoral College, be damned.

2) Because his ban in effect would prohibit some of Her Majesties loyal subjects from entering the US if they have ever been a resident of the named Arab countries, especially Syria? Yes, that has been stayed by the courts for the time being.

3) Because he has thumbed his nose at NATO, of which the UK is a key partner. Remember the UK lost 454 personnel in support of the US in the Afghan War--for which I, as an American, thank you for your sacrifice.

4) Because the Orange One has direct connections to Fascist parties, which have their genesis from the old German National Socialist Party, which also caused so much suffering to your people in the not too distant past.

5)Because, as someone already pointing out, the invitation was not adequately coordinated with the palace.


But, now that the Speaker of your Parliment has said he is not willing to allow the Orange One to Speak before the houses, could this create a crisis of confidence for the PM?

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Bishops Finger
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Hopefully, yes. She deserves it.

IJ

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

But, now that the Speaker of your Parliment has said he is not willing to allow the Orange One to Speak before the houses, could this create a crisis of confidence for the PM?

This must be stopped clock time, because John Bercow, smarmy git that he is, has said something I agree with.

(According to this list there have been 109 state visits to the UK during Her Majesty's reign. Two of those were by US Presidents (Bush in 2003 and Obama in 2011).

Here is a list of people who have addressed Parliament. The Americans are Reagan (1982), Clinton (1995), and Obama (2011).

Bush did not address parliament on his state visit, and Reagan and Clinton's addresses were not part of state visits.

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Callan
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Her Majesty would not dream of interfering in politics. If Mr Trump is invited on a State Visit, she will, of course, receive him.

She does, however, have ways of making her displeasure felt. When the King of Saudi Arabia visited she offered him a tour of the estate at Sandringham. When he arrived to receive said tour who should hop into the driving seat but Her Majesty.(According to the laws of Saudi Arabia, Allah has very strong views on women drivers). She proceeded to take him round the estate in a manner that suggested that if Britain turned republican she could get a gig as Bodie or Doyle in a remake of The Professionals. It is quite with the talents of Her Majesty to behave with studied courtesy whilst conveying the impression that he is about as welcome as something one inadvertently steps in on a pavement where the local canines have been less than continent.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think for Hirohito, along some sections of the crowd, there was dead silence, but also backs turned.

I recall the back turning thing by the PoW veterans who had experienced horrible abuse at the hands of Japanese soldiers during WW2.A legitimate form of protest from those who felt strongly enough to want to do that.
But as another post says above this current anti trump thing is fashionable, making it a wholly different matter. Despite everything thrown at the current US President he is still innocent until proven guilty, (if there is something to be found then the Americans are the ones who have to find it).
There are many many world leaders who fall well short of that bar, not to mention leading British Public figures and at least one deceased PM implicated in things best not mentioned here.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

The Queen, as has been said, couldn't disinvite Trump. She could explain to Theresa that he should be disinvited. Or that should Mrs May be so unreasonable as to do such a thing again, Her Majesty would be Very Unhappy. Which is the equivalent of tearing her off a very blue strip.


I'm not really sure that the Queen could even do that. Is it known that the Queen has ever done such a thing before? I know that there are periodic audiences with the Queen, but it seems highly unlikely that there would be no constitutional crisis if it was known that the Crown had "explained to the PM" what should or shouldn't be done.
Revealing what the Queen has said is considered vary bad etiquette. But there is some evidence that she has, on occasion, made her opinions known. I think, since Diana's death, she has taken a lot more interest in public perception.

But maybe not. She has to be seen to be a-political, so her opinions are only ever represented by others.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think for Hirohito, along some sections of the crowd, there was dead silence, but also backs turned.

I recall the back turning thing by the PoW veterans who had experienced horrible abuse at the hands of Japanese soldiers during WW2.A legitimate form of protest from those who felt strongly enough to want to do that.
But as another post says above this current anti trump thing is fashionable, making it a wholly different matter. Despite everything thrown at the current US President he is still innocent until proven guilty, (if there is something to be found then the Americans are the ones who have to find it).
There are many many world leaders who fall well short of that bar, not to mention leading British Public figures and at least one deceased PM implicated in things best not mentioned here.

So you're saying that any potential protesters fail to meet your minimum offense level, thereby delegitimatizing their protest? Do you suppose they accept your authority to determine for them what constitutes a legitimate cause for protest?

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Posts: 62791 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Her Majesty would not dream of interfering in politics. If Mr Trump is invited on a State Visit, she will, of course, receive him.

She does, however, have ways of making her displeasure felt. When the King of Saudi Arabia visited she offered him a tour of the estate at Sandringham. When he arrived to receive said tour who should hop into the driving seat but Her Majesty.(According to the laws of Saudi Arabia, Allah has very strong views on women drivers). She proceeded to take him round the estate in a manner that suggested that if Britain turned republican she could get a gig as Bodie or Doyle in a remake of The Professionals. It is quite with the talents of Her Majesty to behave with studied courtesy whilst conveying the impression that he is about as welcome as something one inadvertently steps in on a pavement where the local canines have been less than continent.

I love it! My opinion of Her Majesty has just gone up another ten points!

[Big Grin]

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Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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The latest figures I saw on Trump from the Opinium/Observer poll, published Saturday 4th Feb was that only 36% want the visit to 'go ahead regardless', while 25% think that it should be delayed until his travel ban on Muslims from various countries is lifted/expires (which he shows no signs of removing/dropping, and has talked about expanding) plus 28% think that it should be cancelled outright. Together that's 53% who aren't keen on the visit. In addition:

quote:
In addition to the 64% who believe he represents a threat to international stability, the words most commonly associated by Britons with the divisive US president are dangerous (50%), unstable (39%), and bigot (35%). A further 56% believe he is untrustworthy.
Governments, in their naughtiness, roll out the red carpet all the time to dictators who they think might buy weapons systems and other toys. I don't personally approve of this and find it a bit sickening but the Saudis and the Ceaucescus didn't have a hope in hell of undermining NATO or undermining the rule of law in the USA, and were in no position to fatally compromise the Five Eyes with regard to Russia (even if the Ceaucescus might have liked to, they weren't in a position to undermine effectively from within).

Embracing Trump is embracing someone genuinely dangerous to us, to our way of life and to our allies who still share our values. He's not just odious. He's a genuine danger - given to provoking the Chinese, looking the other way to Russian aggression in Ukraine (and potentially to expansionism in the Baltic), compromised in his relations with the FSB, and though you wouldn't think anyone was capable of making things worse in Syria and Iraq, he's having a good go at it, by alienating anti-Isis allies on the ground with the visa ban and talking about taking their oil. He's set off a round of sabre-waving with Iran and already launched a total fuck-up of a military operation in Yemen which bodes ill for the future. He's also dangerously unreliable, ignorant and incompetent in just about every respect. He can't even call a friendly fellow right-wing refugee-hating Anglosphere ally like Australia's Malcolm Turnbull without causing havoc.

He has comprehensively shat on the carpet of Post World War 2 stability and is transforming his own country into what The Economist Intelligence Unit(EIU) have described as 'a flawed democracy'. If you think they're raving lefties, I don't know what to say to you.

The Queen will do what she's asked by the Prime Minister as that's what she does, but people who embrace Trump and drive ahead this visit are embracing a large unflushable turd and all the perfumes of Araby won't sweeten that.

[ 06. February 2017, 23:46: Message edited by: Louise ]

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Posts: 6884 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
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# 16378

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These are indeed strange times. Sometimes we just have to break with tradition.

The Orange One is such a narcissist that any slight by HM would be devastating to him. But I am sure she will keep the visit to the minimum amount possible.

To the point of the Queens driving ability, if I recall she drove transports during WWII.

Posts: 1866 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
He can't even call a friendly fellow right-wing refugee-hating Anglosphere ally like Australia's Malcolm Turnbull without causing havoc.

On the other hand New Zealand's current Prime Minister found him "warm and thoughtful" [Eek!]

Huia

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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(From across the Pond.)

Alan--

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Finally, does anyone know whether the Queen has to host him on a state visit, or could that honour be passed to another senior royal? There could be some interesting conversations if it was passed to Prince Charles. Especially if a venue could be found with some wind turbines on the skyline.

I've been wondering that, too. (Other than the windmills! [Biased] ) If T is at all capable of taking in a small amount of info about, say, climate change, Pr. Charles might be just the person. I think he's written a book on climate change? If he could keep it very simple, the way he might explain it to an inattentive five year old, maybe at least "oh, something icky is going on" might get through to T.

Not that I would wish T on Pr. C!

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Posts: 17448 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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As Trump is a head of state, protocol says that he is invited by HM as head of state of the UK. On the other hand, Angela Merkel, for example, is a head of government and thus Theresa May is the proper person to issue the invitation.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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According to the Sunday Times (behind a paywall, so no link) Trump has said that he does not want to meet Prince Charles, but would prefer to meet Prince William.
Posts: 6325 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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Has anyone considered the diplomatic consequences if Trump *does* arrive, the Queen is too ill to receive him, and he spends the whole time sulking in the American Embassy and refusing to come out because he doesn't want to meet Charles?

If HM *is* well enough to receive him, I'd back her against Trump any day. I am sure she is quite capable of making her feelings known...

Posts: 3779 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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