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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Flags and national anthems
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That said, when I started school we would recite each morning: "I honour my God, I serve my King, I salute my flag", at which we would salute. A suitable change in 1952 of course.
At least that gives you the proper relationship between the three. And makes no false claims about liberty and justice being for "all."
Also it occurs to me that it's much healthier to salute a flag than to pledge loyalty to it. If Congress passes an act tomorrow to use a different flag as our national ensign, would the allegiance I pledged yesterday be a lie? The whole concept is stupid.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Last Night of the Proms looks brilliant from the Southern Hemisphere. My wife likes to watch it and she is a filthy leftie of the worst sort.
"Land of Hope and Glory" and "Rule Britannia"? Sounds pretty un-Australian to me. Good, very singable, melodies, silly words?
There's a famous story (which I heard Jack Fingleton tell) of a clash between Australian patriotism and British patriotism at a reception in Australia for the visiting English cricket team. Both had "had a few".
quote:
High ranking Australian politician: Australia is the finest country in the world and Australians are the finest people in the world.
England fast bowler Fred Trueman: Yeah, well your ancestors were sent here by the finest magistrates in England
Fred got left out of the next two tours! Fingleton thought the exchange was hilarious, and the ban was completely over the top.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Slight tangent....but only slightly....
When one of the offspring got married a few years back it was an international-ish wedding. And given the very real problem with flags that they had encountered, the couple asked if the flags based in the church could be removed for the duration of the ceremony And explained why. The church happily agreed and the flags were reinstated after the event.
As for the national anthem, my peace loving and liberal spouse would walk out of church if we even sang the national anthem. He usually excuses himself from church attendance on Remembrance Sunday in order to avoid a scene.
For lots of people, flags and the national anthem are either a sign of appropriate pride or of honouring something. But sometimes, flags and our national anthems are just plain divisive.
I guess this issue raises lots of issues though.....and i am enjoying reading through the thread. Thank you all!
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That said, when I started school we would recite each morning: "I honour my God, I serve my King, I salute my flag", at which we would salute. A suitable change in 1952 of course.
At least that gives you the proper relationship between the three. And makes no false claims about liberty and justice being for "all."
Also it occurs to me that it's much healthier to salute a flag than to pledge loyalty to it. If Congress passes an act tomorrow to use a different flag as our national ensign, would the allegiance I pledged yesterday be a lie? The whole concept is stupid.
That reminds me of a conversation I had with a parishioner of a former parish of mine, he objected to the City removing the Union Jack from civic property on the grounds that our World War I and World War II veterans did not fight and die under the Maple Leaf (It only became Canada's national flag in 1965) but under the Union Jack of the UK.
I was too kind of the time to tell him that of all the issues in the world from poverty to climate change, to etc, that it seems to be trivial to be complaining to the City about what flag it should fly under.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Anglican Brat wrote:
quote:
That reminds me of a conversation I had with a parishioner of a former parish of mine, he objected to the City removing the Union Jack from civic property on the grounds that our World War I and World War II veterans did not fight and die under the Maple Leaf (It only became Canada's national flag in 1965) but under the Union Jack of the UK.
Was it this flag or this flag that was being taken down?
Because if it was the first one(aka the Union Jack), I don't think the World War II troops, at least, were fighting under that flag anyway, were they?
[ 27. September 2017, 13:55: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Anglican Brat wrote:
quote:
That reminds me of a conversation I had with a parishioner of a former parish of mine, he objected to the City removing the Union Jack from civic property on the grounds that our World War I and World War II veterans did not fight and die under the Maple Leaf (It only became Canada's national flag in 1965) but under the Union Jack of the UK.
Was it this flag or this flag that was being taken down?
Because if it was the first one(aka the Union Jack), I don't think the World War II troops, at least, were fighting under that flag anyway, were they?
The first one, but good point on your explanation that our Canadian troops were technically not flying under the Union Jack in the Wars.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Reaching back into the recesses of my former bureaucratic life, where the flag and symbols people had their cubicles down the hallway, and where a former officer (known as the vexillology vixen for reasons I will not explore nor discuss) told me that much of the 1965 flag fury -- of which I was just old enough to hear the discussions at my elementary school--- was under the mistaken impression that the Red Ensign was the flag under which Canadian forces fought in WWII. The Red Ensign had a presence at many military installations as it was flown over federal government buildings, but the flag used by the Canadian military itself was the Union Jack, and Anglican_brat's grumpy parishioner was correct. By that point in military history, flags were rarely flown at the front, someone having figured out that they were a good target for the other side's artillery.
The 1960s flag debated resulted in a situation where flag-worshippers were focussed on the Red Ensign, after 1965 no longer in any way the country's flag. Their pain was assuaged by the new provincial flags of Ontario and Manitoba, which were red ensigns with the provincial shields in the fly and so provincial flags were often flown in cottage country. During the Harper years, the Red Ensign got a minor and contextual presence back in this interesting if convoluted historical flags document.
Partly because Canada never had an official national flag for the first century of its existence and partly because oaths of allegiance were directed toward an individual (king or queen du jour), we never developed the same flagocentricity as our southern neighbour. However, the cultural influence from south of the border was strong, and my colleagues in the Flag and Arms Cubicle Corridor Complex finally succumbed in the 1980s to sacks of letters (well, there was a box) asking for copies of our flag protocol, and issued a guideline. I have a vague memory that Bill Domm, once MP for Peterborough, wanted to introduce a flag respect bill, and this might have had something to do with its birth, but I would need to make a telephone call to verify this and today I will be too preoccupied with order a new kitchen window to be installed.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Thanks for the correction on the military, Augustine.
quote:
Partly because Canada never had an official national flag for the first century of its existence and partly because oaths of allegiance were directed toward an individual (king or queen du jour), we never developed the same flagocentricity as our southern neighbour. However, the cultural influence from south of the border was strong, and my colleagues in the Flag and Arms Cubicle Corridor Complex finally succumbed in the 1980s to sacks of letters (well, there was a box) asking for copies of our flag protocol, and issued a guideline. I have a vague memory that Bill Domm, once MP for Peterborough, wanted to introduce a flag respect bill, and this might have had something to do with its birth, but I would need to make a telephone call to verify this and today I will be too preoccupied with order a new kitchen window to be installed.
I remember when Sheila Copps was Minister Of Canadian Heritage, she was really big on handing out flags, and at one point even complained that her own government needed to hand out more.
Funny that such an ardent Canadian nationalist thought that importing US-style flag-fetishism was a good way to build national identity. Guess maybe she thought she'd beat Uncle Sam at his own game.
[ 28. September 2017, 15:04: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Jehovah Witness refuse to stand or acknowledge any national flag. We had a girl in our elementary (primary) class who was JW. She would just sit at her desk when we did the Pledge of Allegiance. Looking back at it, she was probably right. Christians shouldn't have to make any pledges other than to their God.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The Conservative Political Action Conference seems to like waving any flags, as long as they’re red, white, and blue.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Re Canadian flags. I tend to see the maple leaf when travelling. At least some of the people sporting them are Canadian. Generally, it's more fun to share a table with the Australians. Who also run all the ski areas in western Canada, as lifties and instructors.
In my youth the stubby beer bottle seemed to be the national symbol.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Symbolic theory could help illustrate this matter.
It may seem obvious, but no object has any meaning absent human construction. In a way, our ability to create symbolic meaning is a pale reflection of God in creation. We cannot create anything in the sense that God does, but we can "create" meaning in imposing on objects, pictures, and images ideas and values.
So saluting the flag or standing for the anthem does not make sense unless it is understood that what one is doing is professing the values or ideas that the flag or anthem stands for. One value that American ideology of freedom ascribes to is freedom of speech and expression, which goes back to the Revolution, when before colonists took up arms against Britain, they were already waging a free war of ideas in discourse.
Kneeling during the national anthem, whether or not one perceives it as disrespectful or respectful, is really not the issue. It is an act of expression and as such, to me, it reflects the values of American ideology which at least in its proclamation, holds free thought and expression in high esteem.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eirenist--
Thank you! I'd been thinking of saying that, but was afraid of the possible reaction.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I don't see why there should be a reaction, as it's clearly true. However I would still judge that British attitudes towards the Crown - except among a small minority of extreme Royalist - are less forceful and quite often more ironic and informal than the American respect or even veneration (or is that too strong a word?) for their flag.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Last Night of the Proms looks brilliant from the Southern Hemisphere. My wife likes to watch it and she is a filthy leftie of the worst sort.
"Land of Hope and Glory" and "Rule Britannia"? Sounds pretty un-Australian to me. Good, very singable, melodies, silly words?
There's a famous story (which I heard Jack Fingleton tell) of a clash between Australian patriotism and British patriotism at a reception in Australia for the visiting English cricket team. Both had "had a few".
quote:
High ranking Australian politician: Australia is the finest country in the world and Australians are the finest people in the world.
England fast bowler Fred Trueman: Yeah, well your ancestors were sent here by the finest magistrates in England
Fred got left out of the next two tours! Fingleton thought the exchange was hilarious, and the ban was completely over the top.
Was Freddie Trueman of the wrong social class to play test cricket? I'm just wondering whether the board came down hard on him because he was an uppity prole (confirmed). I have a recollection that Trueman ended up emigrating to Australia and had a long and distinguished career as a commentator. I could google, but I prefer to speculate ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Certainly my memory of him is extremely positive. I've just googled him, and he must have been the guest commentator on the ABC all the time in Australian summers. He never emigrated. I'm misting up with nostalgia now...
I reckon my wife likes the tunes and the Great British Lunacy of the Last Night of the Proms. We went to a touring show earlier this year and Blake's Jerusalem was brilliant. I'm pretty sure we were one of very few couples under 60. For the flag waving bit we got a flag with the Union Jack on one side and the Australian flag on the other. Naturally I used it to taunt my republican friends, especially my Irish mate.
For the Americans, here is a song about
a Grand Old Flag
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
We are subjects of HM but you could most certainly not call her the focus of national identity - nor is our flag although the new flag campaign seems to have few supporters. The flag's not in relation to republics generally AFAIK, so why in the US?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
I have officiated at a couple of military funerals and it is indeed moving. But the really interesting thing relevant to this thread is that when the color guard presents the folded glad to the next of kin they
Kneel
It is a symbol of mourning, humility-- and respect.
When Colin K began his protests he sat during the anthem. A veteran came to him and shared why he was offended by the actions. And Colin listened. A committed Christian, he and the veteran came upon the notion of kneeling as a way of demonstratting mourning and grief re Americas "original sin" of racism while still conveying deep respect
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Moo: quote:
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
This happens at military funerals in Britain, too.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
I don't know if it's simply a matter of seeing the ritual, but rather, being inculcated in a military culture that attaches a substantial degree of reverence to it.
From years of reading the Ship, I'd say there is probably a certain venn overlap between people who are moved by the words and imagery of Christianity, and people who(for example) have laughed at the movie Life Of Brian. People falling in this category likely think that the emotions they feel for something in one context don't necessarily get transferred over into another one, eg. Someone might be moved at seeing his mother's favorite crucifix resting atop her coffin at the funeral, but if Marilyn Manson wants to wave a bloody crucifix around on stage to thrill the kids, well, it's a sin against good taste, but that's about it.
Now yes, many(possibly even most) people will see any trivialization or degradation of a sacred item as an affront to their memory of more traditional uses of the item. But again, I think that's because of how they've been taught to regard it.
TL/DR: People who have seen the flag used in military funerals are offended by its degradation because they're been taught to regard profanation of the flag as a terrible thing, not simply because the ceremony itself is moving.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Cross-posted with Jane...
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Moo: quote:
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
This happens at military funerals in Britain, too.
Which I think backs up my point that it's the overarching ideological system, not the ceremony, that provokes such an emotional investment in the flag. The UK, as far as I know, doesn't have anywhere near the same cult of the Union Jack that the US has for Old Glory.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Gee D, I did not say the Queen is the symbol of national identity on this side of the pond (are you on the same side as us, in fact?), I deliberately said 'the Crown'. My country is the United Kingdom, after all; the Commonwealth is part of The Commonwealth, after all, of which the Queen is the head (for the time being). Perhaps you could tell us what is your symbol of national identity.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Moo, I saw the flag ceremony at my father's funeral. It was beautiful; I cried. This however does not impact my reactions to any other use of the flag.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
Moo, you're falling into the trap of thinking that other people are the same as you, and will react the way you react to a given thing.
It's not the case. You do not know what effect events have on another person, because you know so little about them. Even people I know well constantly surprise me by not doing what I expect.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
I'm not sure the phrase "focus of national identity" has much meaning to me, whether Brenda or anything else. I just don't think that way. This is probably why I don't get all this huffing and puffing about flags. They're just ways to know who's from which country at Eurovision to me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
I think Flanders and Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice" must be required listening for this thread. To me, its gentle irony does a rather good job at capturing an English identity.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
I confess to having very mixed feelings about the flag of my country, despite having been subjected to the usual brainwashings of daily pledge-recitation through much of my early schooling. For one thing, it's horribly gaudy. As an object of veneration, it seems to stand for some ideals I value strongly, but it also stands for some actions, attitudes, and policies with which I'm in deep disagreement.
Such patriotism as I feel is probably more aroused by the songs 'America the Beautiful' or 'My Country, 'tis of Thee' than by our near-unsingable national anthem, and I'm moved more by the ideals expressed in certain famous speeches & documents (The Gettysburg Address, I Have a Dream, and the Declaration of Independence) than anything else.
This week I've been re-living memories of the Viet Nam War because of Public Television's airing of Ken Burns' documentary. I was emergine from childhood into adolescence into adulthood during that period. I'm realizing, as I read through this thread, how profoundly that experience altered my attitude toward my government, and also to my country and fellow citizens.
I protested the war, but I also objected to the way fellow citizens treated returning soldiers. Sure, there were soldiers who volunteered and believed they were on the side of the angels. But there were many others who went because they were drafted, and no more supported the war than I did.
Currently, I'm wondering what patriotism I can possibly muster toward a country which, ethically speaking, seems to be bent on turning itself into a cesspool.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Symbolic theory could help illustrate this matter.
Is that anything like semiotics?
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Should such strong emotions affect (or effect) the law? Should they affect hiring and firing decisions?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Should such strong emotions affect (or effect) the law? Should they affect hiring and firing decisions?
No.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I just want to let everyone know that I took the knee in the lounge-room at work when the National Anthem was sung at the beginning of today's Grand Final. It was quite a struggle to get up.
On the subject of Australia's national symbol, I reckon it is the flag, but it could also be a sprig of wattle or a kangaroo. Lots of people would like to see the flag changed, and for Australia to become a Republic, so there isn't consensus around our national symbols as there was say in the 1950's.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
NZ spent in the region of $NZ 27 million with 2 referenda in 2015 and 16 to decide whether or not to change our flag. First question was should we change it? Which got a "yes" vote. The second gave some alternatives, but the current flag won out in the end - possibly because some of the alternatives were fairly dire.
I am not that interested in flag waving, but I was surprised how strongly I felt against some of the alternatives and in the end supported keeping the current flag, with the hope that some better alternatives may be offered at some time in the future.
I think NZ only made flag burning illegal in the last few years.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I just want to let everyone know that I took the knee in the lounge-room at work when the National Anthem was sung at the beginning of today's Grand Final. It was quite a struggle to get up.
On the subject of Australia's national symbol, I reckon it is the flag, but it could also be a sprig of wattle or a kangaroo. Lots of people would like to see the flag changed, and for Australia to become a Republic, so there isn't consensus around our national symbols as there was say in the 1950's.
Isn't it a surf board and a Barbie, complete with sangers and shrimps?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
I do hope you're taking the piss, Karl. Shrimp? Shrimp?!
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
NZ spent in the region of $NZ 27 million with 2 referenda in 2015 and 16 to decide whether or not to change our flag. First question was should we change it? Which got a "yes" vote. The second gave some alternatives, but the current flag won out in the end - possibly because some of the alternatives were fairly dire.
Huia
Dire? Some were brilliant!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I especially liked the one with the kiwi riding on the back of the sheep... ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
NZ spent in the region of $NZ 27 million with 2 referenda in 2015 and 16 to decide whether or not to change our flag. First question was should we change it? Which got a "yes" vote. The second gave some alternatives, but the current flag won out in the end - possibly because some of the alternatives were fairly dire.
Huia
Dire?
I rather enjoyed this use of *that* kiwi after the final result.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I imagine that if I took a stack of Union Jacks to certain neighbourhoods in Belfast and set fire to them - or the Irish tricolour in certain other neighbourhoods likewise - then I would be liable to have my collar felt.
But that's not usually considered a reflection of how mature and admirable Belfast culture is. Rather the opposite - it's a symptom of a severely problem-ridden society (which we all hope is gradually healing).
Burning a flag is like blasphemy; it's a deliberate disrespect of a symbol of what others hold sacred. It's bad manners.
But it seems to me that if I want the freedom to express - in symbol and in word - points of view which others might find iconoclastic or offensive, then I should be prepared to grant others the same freedom with regard to my own sacred cows.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not a Kipling short story, set in the school of Stalky and Co., describing the visit of a "yellow-bellied flag flapper" to the school, and the disgust offered by the boys to such a coarse thing? Somewhat predated the "jingo" thing, but may have permeated some attitudes about the flag and all that glory, once WW1 was over.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
I'm not sure the phrase "focus of national identity" has much meaning to me, whether Brenda or anything else. I just don't think that way. This is probably why I don't get all this huffing and puffing about flags. They're just ways to know who's from which country at Eurovision to me.
I'm not a Republican, but I agree that the concept of a 'focus of national identity' must be problematic in Britain today. And certainly in England.
It's a fragmented and rapidly changing country, and the very idea of everyone rallying around the Queen, or around a flag, just doesn't feel authentic. AFAICS even Brexit isn't being experienced as an outburst of some sort of flag- or crown-based mania. IMO it's more of an expression of the lack of confidence in flags and monarchs.
This American fuss about flags is one of those cultural phenomena that prove what a different sort of place it is.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I have been the chaplain in charge of military funerals. I was the one that would present the flag to the family member--usually the spouse or the progeny of the military member. I would repeat the words: On behalf of a grateful nation, I present this flag to you. Then I would make a slow salute and about-face.
That serviceman served his country so that people could have the right of self-expression without repercussions from the government.
Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza. The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
... Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza. The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.
It ought to have been obvious that was a really stupid thing to do.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I was reminded of that poor American student in North Korea who souvenired a picture in his hotel - Oscar Weinburger? Or was he Secretary of State?
In any event, BAD GRAMPS. You risked depriving us of your company.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I was reminded of that poor American student in North Korea who souvenired a picture in his hotel - Oscar Weinburger? Or was he Secretary of State?
Otto Warmbier.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
(Caspar Weinberger was Secretary of Defense under Reagan.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What SvitlanaV2 said above.
Come Remembrance Sunday, I'll be interested to see how Father Polyfilla (a visiting retired priest, who calls himself that because he 'fills in the cracks'!) deals with our multi-ethnic, multi-national congregation. There will probably be only one person present who will actually have lived through WW2, but there will be others who have experienced more recent conflicts in their home countries...
I expect we shall sing our National Anthem anyway, or one verse of it at least, as a show of loyalty to the country in which we now live, and which shelters and provides for us.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
quote:
Kipling short story, set in the school of Stalky and Co., describing the visit of a "yellow-bellied flag flapper" to the school, and the disgust offered by the boys to such a coarse thing?
Not quite--the boys referred to the M.P. in question as a "jelly-bellied flag-flapper." When he arrived at the College, he didn't want to pay his driver what he owed and got into an argument (in front of the students). Then, before the Head introduced him to the assembled students, he talked to the Head with his back to them. So, even before his crass behavior with the flag, he'd established himself as someone who exploited people and who didn't know how to behave with simple courtesy. On a much smaller scale, does he remind you of a certain greedy, vulgar, stupid subhuman in public life today?
When I was still in elementary school, a group of students (I think at the University of Arizona) sat through the national anthem in protest (against racial segregation or the Vietnam war, I don't remember). And the reaction was as bloody idiotic as what we've seen today. "They should be put in prison for life!" "They should be taken out and shot!" Barbarian flag-flappers acted like subjects in a dictatorship rather than citizens of a democracy. Ignoramuses, unaware of the First Amendment--and the Supreme Court decision that no citizen can be required to stand for the anthem or recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
So, a restaurant owner in Wisconsin has been shrieking his stupid head off urging that all participants in the anthem protests be executed. I'm glad to see that his co-owners have distanced themselves from the bigoted moron.
In elementary school we were all subjected to a good deal of right-wing political indoctrination; McCarthyism was still virulent even long after the discrediting and death of that vicious sot. If someone in the old Soviet Union was sent to prison camp for a simple act of dissent, the jingoists would have been jumping up and down screaming about the evils of Communism! (Of course, repression was perfectly OK when committed by military dictatorships in Latin America...)
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What SvitlanaV2 said above.
Come Remembrance Sunday, I'll be interested to see how Father Polyfilla (a visiting retired priest, who calls himself that because he 'fills in the cracks'!) deals with our multi-ethnic, multi-national congregation. There will probably be only one person present who will actually have lived through WW2, but there will be others who have experienced more recent conflicts in their home countries...
I expect we shall sing our National Anthem anyway, or one verse of it at least, as a show of loyalty to the country in which we now live, and which shelters and provides for us.
IJ
Except our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.
[ 01. October 2017, 17:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Quite so. I didn't say I was looking forward to singing it, and, TBH, I'd prefer it if we didn't. In any case, the prayer 'long to reign over us' has been answered, surely.
(When I occasionally officiate at Matins, which is mostly attended by the staff, prior to the Sunday Eucharist, I never use the prayers for Queen and Royal Family. Is Outrage, I know, so sue me...).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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