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Source: (consider it) Thread: Flags and national anthems
leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(When I occasionally officiate at Matins, which is mostly attended by the staff, prior to the Sunday Eucharist, I never use the prayers for Queen and Royal Family. Is Outrage, I know, so sue me...).

IJ

Hardly anyone does the state rayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at he 3rd collect.

--------------------
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Seriously though the lack of a proper national anthem does nothing to engender any sense of identity.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Bishops Finger
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@leo, you are quite right, but our Matins is FWIW stand-alone - 930am Matins, 1030am Eucharist, with 35-40 minutes in between the two.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Gee D, I did not say the Queen is the symbol of national identity on this side of the pond (are you on the same side as us, in fact?), I deliberately said 'the Crown'. My country is the United Kingdom, after all; the Commonwealth is part of The Commonwealth, after all, of which the Queen is the head (for the time being). Perhaps you could tell us what is your symbol of national identity.

No, I am on the western side of a pond larger than the Atlantic.

I took your point about Queen/Crown. Whichever way you put it, neither is a symbol of national identity. Nor is the flag although there's no real support for moves to change it. It is extremely hard to think of one. For Madame and me, it is the land itself, although not in the same manner as for the ancient peoples. They belong to the land, where they were born shapes them and describes them. It is not as if the land belongs to them. But saying that the land is for us is not to say that it is for many others. Perhaps it's Anzac Day.

[ 01. October 2017, 20:49: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza.

"Take it"? You mean you decided to steal it?
quote:
The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.

Lucky thieves. I don't see how your being American enters into it (unless you feel lucky that the police didn't discover that on this occasion American behavior was exactly as shitty as they suspected.)
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mousethief

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Gotta go with Dave W. on this one.

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Soror Magna
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Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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simontoad
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Not me. Dave is being too heavy-handed, although if he happens to be a nostalgic Hungarian Communist I will withdraw my criticism.

It sounds like Gramps and his fellow travelers* were out on a college-style lark. It's on the same level of criminality as daubing an advertising billboard with a political slogan.

*titter

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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?

I don't think they do it for the Cricket (Test Cricket you heathens). That might be because everyone's anthem was God Save the Queen until India achieved nationhood... (don't bother checking that, its probably wrong).

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Human

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza.

"Take it"? You mean you decided to steal it?
quote:
The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.

Lucky thieves. I don't see how your being American enters into it (unless you feel lucky that the police didn't discover that on this occasion American behavior was exactly as shitty as they suspected.)

Communism being equal to Liberty oriented systems and all, hell even better in a lot of ways!

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Not me. Dave is being too heavy-handed, although if he happens to be a nostalgic Hungarian Communist I will withdraw my criticism.

It sounds like Gramps and his fellow travelers* were out on a college-style lark. It's on the same level of criminality as daubing an advertising billboard with a political slogan.

*titter

So if I'm Hungarian, Gramps49's story is one of theft, but if I'm not, it isn't? This appears to be a variety of relativism with which I'm not familiar.

romanlion's relativism is more straightforward - theft is bad in principle (I assume he would agree), but not if you're an American in a communist country.

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simontoad
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no, no. If you were emotionally connected to the situation, I would refrain from criticising you. That's all. I would seek to be understanding of your pain. I am a beautiful human being, I know. I sometimes move myself to tears. [Big Grin]

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Human

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Not me. Dave is being too heavy-handed, although if he happens to be a nostalgic Hungarian Communist I will withdraw my criticism.

It sounds like Gramps and his fellow travelers* were out on a college-style lark. It's on the same level of criminality as daubing an advertising billboard with a political slogan.

*titter

So if I'm Hungarian, Gramps49's story is one of theft, but if I'm not, it isn't? This appears to be a variety of relativism with which I'm not familiar.

romanlion's relativism is more straightforward - theft is bad in principle (I assume he would agree), but not if you're an American in a communist country.

Wasn't that what happened with that youngish American guy who was imprisoned in N. Korea, was released this year due to ill health, and who died after he got home? I think he took either a N. Korean flag or propaganda poster. NK Was Not Amused.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?

I suppose sports are a tribal activity and the anthem singing is part of its tribal nature, like wearing your team’s scarf?

I don’t know, I don’t support any team in any sport.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?

I'm not sure if there is an explanation - as discussed above, British non-international team sports generally are not opened with anthems. One exception in my experience is Ice Hockey, which is particularly ridiculous in the UK where a large proportion of the players are not British.

My assumption is that in the main it is left to crowds (and sometimes DJs who lead the crowds) to create the aural landscape at many sports. Those sports here which do habitually play the national anthem seem to be ones where the culture has been imported from North America.

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arse

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.

That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.

Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.

I have no problem praying for the Queen and the government - I'm praying that they'll not make more stupid decisions, that they'll face the consequences of their actions (in the case of the Tories) and that she'll quickly come to her senses and resign (in the case of the Queen).

I always think that the Queen certainly needs saving and that her councillors certainly need a bit of wisdom.

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arse

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Eirenist
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Bishop'a Finger, why do you refuse to pray for the Supreme Governor of your Church?
(I can't pursue this further now, I am about to leave for a week in Europe - I hope to be allowed back.)

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Kittyville
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quote:
There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
Hence the excellent line from Lord Denning which was, until recently, a (Kiwi, I think) shipmate's sig:

The House of Commons starts its proceedings with a prayer. The chaplain looks at the assembled members with their varied intelligence and then prays for the country.

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Gee D
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I'd be looking for a better authority than Lord Denning.....

Be that as it may, I can remember the weekly praying for Elizabeth our Queen, Phillip Duke of Edinburgh, Charles Duke of Cornwall* and all the Royal Family. We can't have prayed hard enough for poor little Charles.

* That will give you an idea how long ago it was - well before he became Prince of Wales.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Bishops Finger
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@Eirenist (I know you're away, but just very quickly) - I omit the State Prayers because we've already prayed for the Queen in the Lesser Litany ('O Lord, save the Queen. And mercifully hear us when we call upon thee').

Also, we need to keep Matins brief, as various jobs (such as lifts to church for an elderly member of the assembly of faith) have to be done before the Eucharist.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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L'organist
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We do Matins from the book - state prayers and all, and the Litany is intoned during the penitential seasons.

posted by Bishops Finger
quote:
I omit the State Prayers because we've already prayed for the Queen in the Lesser Litany ... we need to keep Matins brief...
You must be saving at least 45 seconds by skipping the prayers for HM, The DoE, PoW and royal family.

[ 02. October 2017, 16:43: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, that's about right. Time well saved.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.

That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.

Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.

In which case, replace prayers for the queen and royal family (who have no power) with those for parliament.

--------------------
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Bishops Finger
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Actually, what I usually do with the 45 seconds saved [Roll Eyes] is to pray extempore for those who will be coming into church that day, for worship or other pastoral reasons, and for our neighbouring parishes, before saying the Prayer for the Clergy and People. Given that we use Matins primarily as a 'staff' preparation for the Eucharist, that seems appropriate. Queen and Government etc. are usually prayed for during the Eucharist as well, of course.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.

The trouble is, the British people wouldn't agree about what the replacement should be.

You want us to forget the anachronism of the monarchy; others would want the monarch to be given at least a passing mention.

Some would prefer to remove all religious references, but others would struggle against that.

Occasionally, someone proposes that 'Jerusalem' become our national anthem, but I don't think that's quite right either. No monarchy, but the religious references are problematic. Also, it references a city that's nowhere near England!

Maybe we could get around the problem by creating a specifically English anthem. There could be a competition to come up with suitable song.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.

That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.

Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.

In which case, replace prayers for the queen and royal family (who have no power) with those for parliament.
The 1959/1962 Canadian BCP also asks that the GG and Lt Governors get endued with wisdom along with the legislators. The Book of Alternative Services gives no set prayers for the offices or the Eucharist, just a rubrical instruction to pray for the Queen and all in authority; occasional prayers for HM, authorities, and elections are on pp. 677ff for the curious. More attention gets paid to acknowledging the sometimes ceded sometimes unceded land upon which we stand.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Queen .....usually prayed for during the Eucharist as well, of course.
IJ

Well, I suppose we often pray for old people.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Except our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.

In its defence, it's really a prayer set to music. Like God save the Emperor, which has much better music of course

I like the second verse, with confounding politics and especially frustrating knavish tricks. And how much the language has changed since it was written.

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L'organist
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If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?

Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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simontoad
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I'd like to nominate Love Minus Zero/No Limit by Bob Dylan as the Planetary Anthem.

My reasons include:

1. It was written by a winner of the Nobel Prize;

2. It has no overt political or religious meaning;

3. Its about how you look at the person you love when you love them in the best way you can;

4. It is one of my favorite songs;

5. It's guaranteed to annoy Putin and Trump.

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Human

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Palimpsest
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Except for the name of the country I've always felt America the Beautiful was a good and pretty generic anthem for use in any country that has water boundaries and mountains.
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Pigwidgeon

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I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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simontoad
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Both great suggestions. I shall refrain from being silly for the moment in the hope that more good ones are proffered. Rest assured I am absolutely gagging to post something from This is Jinsy.

I wonder if changing "America" to "The Planet Earth" would make it universal?

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Human

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Golden Key
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Re "God Save The Queen":

[Biased] [Angel]

Here's a parody I learned as a kid. There's a UK listing for it, but this is the closest to what I learned:

quote:
"God Save the King" (Experience Project).

King George, he had a date,
He stayed out very late,
He was the king.

Queen Mary paced the floor,
King George came home at four,
She met him at the door,

God save the King!



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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18174 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.

The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.

Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.

[ 05. October 2017, 07:50: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7389 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gill H

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According to one of my favourite Big Finish Doctor Who audio adventures, the planet Earth already has an anthem. It’s “I Will Survive”.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.

It's a very moving tune, isn't it? As are most Welsh songs, ISTM. I like the male voice choirs.

But I don't think singing about a shared culture would work in England, where there's so much diversity of culture. Singing about ancient warriors in the homeland of the British empire would be a problem.

References to natural beauty are inoffensive, though, and the English could also get mileage out of singing about poets, musicians, scientists, inventors, etc.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.

It's a very moving tune, isn't it? As are most Welsh songs, ISTM. I like the male voice choirs.

But I don't think singing about a shared culture would work in England, where there's so much diversity of culture. Singing about ancient warriors in the homeland of the British empire would be a problem.

References to natural beauty are inoffensive, though, and the English could also get mileage out of singing about poets, musicians, scientists, inventors, etc.

Ageing 2000AD readers may remember the Ghoyogian national anthem from DR and Quinch: "Ghoyogi, my Ghoyogi, home of the brave and free. Where greenish grey festoons of slime are hung from every tree."

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Though, seriously (no, not really) England could do worse than adopt the last lines of Gong's Flying Teapot

quote:
Originally written by a stoned hippy

Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea...

High in the sky, what do you see?
Come down to Earth, a cup of tea



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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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SvitlanaV2
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Not too bad....

[Smile]

But you'd need to have at least a line in there about the now dominant appeal of coffee.

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Cod
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?

Sounds like just about all national anthems then.

Why have a national anthem at all? Their main use is sporting events, and in my view the only appropriate way to begin one is with a whistle, except cricket, which should be begun with a polite round of applause.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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simontoad
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My Heart Belongs to Jinsy

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Human

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.

The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.

Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.

I used to hear a Canadian version of TLIYL, as a kid in the 1970s. The country was said to span `...from the Arctic Circle, to the Great Lake waters`. (Sorry, can`t get the quotation marks to work on this computer.)

Maybe we sang it in school, I`m not sure.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Gamaliel
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@Svitlana ...

So Blake's Jerusalem references a city that is nowhere near England ...

Blimey, I thought Jamat was the literalist on these boards ...

You have heard of metaphor, I presume?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Steve Langton
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.

The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.

Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.

Back in the late 1960s the Young Liberals published a songbook including a 'Britishised' version of "This Land is Your Land; I regret I didn't keep my copy. Has anyone out there got those words???
Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Svitlana ...

So Blake's Jerusalem references a city that is nowhere near England ...

Blimey, I thought Jamat was the literalist on these boards ...

You have heard of metaphor, I presume?

The question is whether it's an appropriate metaphor for our nation as it is at present. I'm not sure it is. Maybe we need to re-invent the idea of the mythical utopian city for a different age.

But if you're also saying that English towns and cities lack poetic elegance then I suppose I'd have to agree. Who wants to sing about Huddersfield, Leicester or Plymouth, for example? Perhaps the folk who live there, but I wouldn't even be sure of that.

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.

The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.

Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.

Back in the late 1960s the Young Liberals published a songbook including a 'Britishised' version of "This Land is Your Land; I regret I didn't keep my copy. Has anyone out there got those words???
When I was about 10 (in the early sixties) our Headmaster wrote a New Zealand version.

"This land is my land, this land is your land,
From Cape Maria, to Stewart Island,
In kauri forests and Cook Strait waters.
This land was made for you and me." - LG Anderson.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Gill H

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May the gloss in Ross be a good gloss...

Paint commercial

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