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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Coward Uncle Pete
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro ...

sounds painful
Actually it sounds pretty good.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I typed in 'mousethief cooler'.

No hits for that. [Eek!]

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Get your arse to Mars

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Using DuckDuckGo I get the thread from July where you posted the recipe.
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The suggestion that he wasn't your monster is simply that if he had been your monster, you wouldn't have given two shits about what he did.

None of them are my monster, thank you very much. I'm no more a fan of the Sauds than I am of the Castros. The chief difference is that there's nobody on these boards posting gushing praise of the Sauds for me to disagree with.

But rest assured that if anyone posts a thread calling Salman bin Abdulaziz (or any of his predecessors) a great, great man whom Saudi Arabia are fortunate to have then I'll be right there to show them the error of their ways.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I typed in 'mousethief cooler'.

No hits for that. [Eek!]

Does that mean there's nothing cooler than mousethief?

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.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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So sorry to disappoint you, Marvellous Marvie. There is nothing you can say or do that would make me the supporter of the cold, corparatist capitalism you espouse, RuthW notwithstanding.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of them are my monster, thank you very much.

Humanity has so far managed to avoid putting people you share political views with into positions of power?

Well. Normally I'm a pessimist but this actually gives me hope.

[ 05. December 2016, 18:45: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Get your arse to Mars

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
So sorry to disappoint you, Marvellous Marvie. There is nothing you can say or do that would make me the supporter of the cold, corparatist capitalism you espouse, RuthW notwithstanding.

None of this is about which political theory you favour. It's about you supporting a specific oppressive dictator.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of them are my monster, thank you very much.

Humanity has so far managed to avoid putting people you share political views with into positions of power?

Well. Normally I'm a pessimist but this actually gives me hope.

Given that my political views center around the right of people to decide things for themselves, it's difficult to see which oppressive dictator could be said to agree with them. There are a few people with whom I share political opinions who have been put into positions of power as a result of free and fair elections, but I doubt either of us would say they were "monsters" in this context.

You and Pete seem to be treating politics like it's a game - or better yet, a war - where your side winning is the only thing that matters, and the way you get there is unimportant. I don't subscribe to that view, and I don't think the ends justify the means.

I may be in favour of capitalism, but I'd rather live in a socialist country that is that way due to the will of the people as expressed through free and fair elections than a capitalist country that is that way because of dictatorial oppression. Can you say the same with the political opinions reversed?

Another way of putting it is I'd rather see people freely choose the "wrong" answer than see them forced to accept the "right" one. Again, can you say the same?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.

And as we've previously discussed, the only freedom you want leads to the vast majority - of which you're not one, because you're a disciple of Rand and therefore utterly self-deluded about your place in the pecking order - having only the freedom to starve to death at the side of the road.

Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.

Both right and left are guilty of that particular sin. But I was talking about how you and Pete are approaching the issue, not the political theories themselves.

quote:
because you're a disciple of Rand
Never read a word of hers in my life, but from the few reviews I've seen I doubt that would be true.

As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.

The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.

Both right and left are guilty of that particular sin.
False equivalence. It's mainly the Right, of any flavour. One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
because you're a disciple of Rand
Never read a word of hers in my life, but from the few reviews I've seen I doubt that would be true.
I don't doubt it. You're right up her street.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.

You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply?
quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
quote:
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Two nits to pic Doc. One is that, in practice, Socialism doesn't have a fantastic human rights track record. Which is why I prefer democratic socialism. Two, whilst I believe you are not a fan of dictators, I don't think the same can be said of Uncle Pete. Anyone who calls Castro great or a hero is willing to support a dictator if they have share political views.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.

Which of those headings do you consider Castro to fall under?

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.

You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply?
quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.

It's the ability to reverse any decision that the people no longer support that's important. Not just the ones you think are terrible.

quote:
quote:
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
I've specifically asked you three times (albeit in only two different posts) if you would say the same. Your responses have been to bluster about how bad the right is rather than to confirm that you would, in fact, prefer a democratically elected capitalist government to a socialist dictatorship.

I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two nits to pic Doc. One is that, in practice, Socialism doesn't have a fantastic human rights track record. Which is why I prefer democratic socialism. Two, whilst I believe you are not a fan of dictators, I don't think the same can be said of Uncle Pete. Anyone who calls Castro great or a hero is willing to support a dictator if they have share political views.

Oh, for the love of your God! I admire Castro only in the respect that he was the right leader for Cuba and held strong against all attempts by your government to kill and/or overthrow him. I never said he was not a dictator who killed both bad and good people. I admire Cubans who stood for humanitarian aid (yes he did, but I doubt that was reported widely in your press.) Nor do I doubt that,t given the chance, your government would have treated Cuba as a friend until it was no longer useful to them and then left it to fester as Haiti has been left to fester. PS- Social democracy doesn't work. It ends up doing its best to capture the centre point between left and right, and thus becomes indistinguishable from any other political movement.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Oh, for the love of your God! I admire Castro only in the respect that he was the right leader for Cuba and held strong against all attempts by your government to kill and/or overthrow him. I never said he was not a dictator who killed both bad and good people.

quote:
Farewell to a great, great man
Yeah, not buying it.
quote:

I admire Cubans who stood for humanitarian aid (yes he did, but I doubt that was reported widely in your press.) Nor do I doubt that,t given the chance, your government would have treated Cuba as a friend until it was no longer useful to them and then left it to fester as Haiti has been left to fester.

All governments do this, even your beloved Castro.
BTW, I've not decried Castro as Evil, with no merits. I'm looking for a more balanced view. Which, despite a few throw away comments, you do not seem to have.

quote:

PS- Social democracy doesn't work. It ends up doing its best to capture the centre point between left and right, and thus becomes indistinguishable from any other political movement.

It is distinguishable from far left and far right, it is distinguishable from countries that need to lock their citizens in (coughCUBAcough).
There is no perfect system of government. There is, and never will be, any utopian government. Government will always be a compromise. You choose what things you will compromise for what things are most necessary. There is a discussion in what ideals can be most closely achieved, but short of a radical change in human nature, no system will be perfect.

As far as Castro:
Any government that needs to repress its people to maintain itself has failed those people.

Castro could have done much better by his people. He chose not to do so.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.

Which of those headings do you consider Castro to fall under?
If you can get your rigidly binary mind around the concept, neither.

quote:
quote:
quote:

As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.

You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply?
quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.

It's the ability to reverse any decision that the people no longer support that's important. Not just the ones you think are terrible.
Because of course I'm going to want to reverse decisions I agree with. But to avoid your semantic word-play, yes, that's kind of what democracy is about.

quote:
quote:
quote:
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
I've specifically asked you three times (albeit in only two different posts) if you would say the same. Your responses have been to bluster about how bad the right is rather than to confirm that you would, in fact, prefer a democratically elected capitalist government to a socialist dictatorship.
And this is the first time you've actually expressed it this way. There's been zero bluster. I'm far more committed to the democratic process than you'll ever be - you're simply wearing it as a cloak and you'll shed it just as soon as you get a sniff of what you really want, which is hyper-capitalist libertarianism.

quote:
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
No, you're not saying that at all. Or rather, that's not all you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't like people being in a position to tell you what to do. And for you, that goes for democracies as well as dictatorships.

You're simply using this issue as a cover for some socialist bashing - in reality, you don't give a shit about it. Whereas democratic socialists would die at barricades defending what you'd so quickly ditch.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Extrajudicial killings happen in every jurisdiction, including the US and UK. Each should be investigated and those responsible prosecuted, but single cases aren't necessarily indicative of anything broader.

Perhaps, but I feel like the killing of law abiding human rights activists is currently not a particularly common practice in either the U.S. or U.K. I'm sure there's always something one could say "what about...." I don't view our leaders as saintly or even particularly virtuous, and they probably have to be fairly vicious pragmatists when they need to be. Until they can muffle dissent or lock up their opposition willy nilly, I would say we're on a slightly better footing relative to a one party authoritarian state keeping everyone equally impoverished.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I feel like the killing of law abiding human rights activists is currently not a particularly common practice in either the U.S. or U.K. I'm sure there's always something one could say "what about...." I don't view our leaders as saintly or even particularly virtuous, and they probably have to be fairly vicious pragmatists when they need to be. Until they can muffle dissent or lock up their opposition willy nilly, I would say we're on a slightly better footing relative to a one party authoritarian state keeping everyone equally impoverished.

I'd say the next 4 years should prove an interesting test to this idea.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm far more committed to the democratic process than you'll ever be - you're simply wearing it as a cloak and you'll shed it just as soon as you get a sniff of what you really want, which is hyper-capitalist libertarianism.

That's a ridiculous assertion, especially from someone who is defending Fidel Fucking Castro.

quote:
quote:
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
No, you're not saying that at all. Or rather, that's not all you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't like people being in a position to tell you what to do. And for you, that goes for democracies as well as dictatorships.
What the hell are you talking about? You're heading into the realm of delusion if you think anything I've said on this thread is even remotely similar to that rubbish.

quote:
You're simply using this issue as a cover for some socialist bashing - in reality, you don't give a shit about it. Whereas democratic socialists would die at barricades defending what you'd so quickly ditch.
I'm arguing in favour of democracy and freedom. It's a theme that runs through every post I've made on this thread. How you get from there to the idea that I don't give a shit about it and would happily ditch it is beyond me.

And again, you are the one defending an oppressive dictator on this thread. Not me. And there seem to be no lengths to which you won't go while mounting that defence. You even started defending Hitler when I brought him up to illustrate a point back on page 2.

Throughout my entire time on these boards I cannot recall once arguing against anyone who said that Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Batista, Franco et al were oppressive dictators, because they were. The fact that I happen to be on the same side of politics as them doesn't enter into it. But for some reason, when the oppressive dictator in question is from the left side of politics those who are also on that side can't seem to stop making excuses for him, minimising the evils of his reign, or filling the thread with tangents so that the criticism gets drowned out. Isn't that interesting?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Feel free to point out anywhere I've defended Castro. Your argument is invalid.

And actually, I've run out of fucks to give here. A stone can't be pierced by an arrow, and I've no further wish to try.

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Get your arse to Mars

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Originally posted by MtM:
quote:
I'm arguing in favour of democracy and freedom. It's a theme that runs through every post I've made on this thread. How you get from there to the idea that I don't give a shit about it and would happily ditch it is beyond me
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree. The government you seem to favour limits the have nots in favour of the haves. This is a consistent theme of yours on SOF

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.

That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.

My answer to those questions is different to yours, yes. But that doesn't matter - we should both get an equal right to have our say about how we will be governed.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29840 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.

That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.

My answer to those questions is different to yours, yes. But that doesn't matter - we should both get an equal right to have our say about how we will be governed.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29840 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.

That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.

My answer to those questions is different to yours, yes. But that doesn't matter - we should both get an equal right to have our say about how we will be governed.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29840 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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So important he posts it three times... [Disappointed]

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8696 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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Sorry, iPhone cock up.

I thought you weren't coming back?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Merely in a hosting capacity. I still have to read your crap, whatever.

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Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8696 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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Yeah, I realised that about five minutes after I posted.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29840 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged



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