|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: What puts you off from setting foot inside a church?
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think all forms of worship that don't currently have well over a 100 year pedigree are likely to seem 'contrived' to somebody. I imagine that fewer and fewer people will have an issue with this, as the shared memory of inherited forms recedes.
However, I think there will always be places where the most beautiful traditions will be carefully preserved. People who want them are going to have to adopt a sectarian rather than a parish mindset, and be willing to travel a considerable distance in order to set foot inside the churches that offer the worshipping styles and doctrines that they prefer. I understand from the Ship that many churchgoers in rural areas are already doing this.
Some people say this quite a ,lot on here and it may be true. but why should it be the good stuff that gets relegated to the rare minority taste? Why can't more people just be arsed to think about the value of inherited beauty? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But there are no vows, no "I do" or "I will" pronouncements other than to say you're not encumbered by engagement to anyone else, and are entering into the marriage freely, nor any "I now pronounce you" pronouncements.
Ah, that's not an option here in Britain (except for the "I pronounce you") - the marriage would not be valid.
I wonder how Orthodox parishes in Britain do it. Perhaps people get legally married in a secular context (here we'd say at the courthouse or by the Justice of the Peace) then married in the eyes of God at church. Now we miss Father Gregory more than ever.
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, nature abhors a vacuum, and people love ceremonies--and so, in the absence of the ancient, decent and orderly ceremonies of the Church, people will invent their own.
I think this is similar to "dedication" services for people who don't believe in infant baptism. They instinctively feel there is a need for a rite of passage here, and since they reject the traditional one, they invent a new one. The altar call is similar.
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[snip]
Some people say this quite a ,lot on here and it may be true. but why should it be the good stuff that gets relegated to the rare minority taste? Why can't more people just be arsed to think about the value of inherited beauty?
When have they ever had to in any other context? They have no experience of trying to see the good side of anything that doesn't tingle their immediate sense of fun or enjoyment. (This is the chief purpose of lutefisk, by the way -- forcing you to accept and eventually love part of tradition that isn't of itself pleasant.)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
There was one wedding where the bride wanted to release two doves after the ceremony - to fly off separately? That's another one that is more usual at a funeral where the symbolism makes far more sense. [To allow this the PCC has to adopt a policy which includes all sorts of checks - humane keeping of homing pigeons, release somewhere safe (without peregrines poised to pounce) within a reasonable distance of their loft ...*]
I've seen the candles requested in England - starting with two candles and both those candles lighting the one. I have fortunately wiped all further details from my mind so can't remember if it actually happened.
The only orthodox weddings I've seen are like the non-conformist weddings - registry office legal marriage, religious orthodox wedding. And there are legal requirements on the registry office marriage service, including no religious inputs.
* I worked as a part time church administrator for a few years to bolster my earnings working with young people, got to research all sorts of esoteric things.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
That sounds about right, MT. Plus in some cases a sort of faux-humble inverted-snobbish idea about 'authenticity'.
[ 03. January 2017, 18:38: Message edited by: Albertus ]
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
That sounds about right, MT. Plus in some cases a sort of faux-humble inverted-snobbish idea about 'authenticity'.
As if something that's over a thousand years old isn't authentic.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Mousethief, have I got this right? Is it in the cut-right-down Protestant weddings or the Orthodox wedding that there is not point where the couple each individually say any equivalent of,
'I Mickey Mouse take you Minnie Mouse to be my wife .... ', and vice versa except that the word is 'husband' whether followed by the full vows, 'to have and hold .... etc' or not?
Without that 'taking', freely, knowingly, publicly and reciprocally given, in the law of England and Wales, the couple will not end up married. Even if conducted by an authorised deputy registrar, the ceremony will be void. Failure on this point would almost inevitably also result in the deputy registrar having his or her licence to perform weddings instantly and irreversibly removed.
For a CofE wedding, the priest is automatically able to conduct weddings without having to be appointed by the registrar, but has to follow the authorised service books. There is some flexibility, as to in what order things are taken, but on that core point above, the 'taking freely, knowingly, publicly and reciprocally' there is none.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Orthodox weddings have no vows, no "I take thee," no "I do" or "I will." The couple says nothing other than "No" to the question "Are you engaged to anybody else?" and "Yes" to the question "Are you entering into this marriage freely?" (these are paraphrases of course). The rest is the priest and the choir and the people. Oh maybe they all do the Creed together, I can't remember.
Sounds like UK law is based on the services of the Church of England, and forcing that model on all the noncons as well.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
I poked around on a few sites of Orthodox churches in the UK and found that all of them require a state marriage before they will celebrate the sacrament of matrimony.
As of a couple of years ago, I have strongly encouraged couples to do the same when I marry them. I'm less and less at ease with being a State functionary these days, and if they're already at the courthouse to get the license they may as well get married at the same time. Then I don't have to worry about paperwork, or satisfying state requirements, or any of that nonsense.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sounds like UK law is based on the services of the Church of England, and forcing that model on all the noncons as well.
There isn't UK law in this matter - there is English & Welsh law, Scottish Law, and Northern Irish law.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Whereas I am adamant that the church(es) should get out of the legal side of things
I very much agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sounds like UK law is based on the services of the Church of England, and forcing that model on all the noncons as well.
There isn't UK law in this matter - there is English & Welsh law, Scottish Law, and Northern Irish law.
I stand corrected.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think all forms of worship that don't currently have well over a 100 year pedigree are likely to seem 'contrived' to somebody. I imagine that fewer and fewer people will have an issue with this, as the shared memory of inherited forms recedes.
However, I think there will always be places where the most beautiful traditions will be carefully preserved. People who want them are going to have to adopt a sectarian rather than a parish mindset, and be willing to travel a considerable distance in order to set foot inside the churches that offer the worshipping styles and doctrines that they prefer. I understand from the Ship that many churchgoers in rural areas are already doing this.
Some people say this quite a ,lot on here and it may be true. but why should it be the good stuff that gets relegated to the rare minority taste? Why can't more people just be arsed to think about the value of inherited beauty?
I suspect that appreciating 'the value of inherited beauty' has always been a fairly minority taste.
On a practical level, though, there are surely issues to do with finances and resources. There won't be sufficient numbers of quality organists, choirs, or clergy to ensure that every parish can provide a traditionally beautiful experience every week. And where they do exist they might want to go where there will be people to appreciate them.
However, the CofE will surely have the best of it. Many other historical denominations are likely to face even greater difficulties in maintaining their traditional practices.
[ 04. January 2017, 23:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think all forms of worship that don't currently have well over a 100 year pedigree are likely to seem 'contrived' to somebody. I imagine that fewer and fewer people will have an issue with this, as the shared memory of inherited forms recedes.
However, I think there will always be places where the most beautiful traditions will be carefully preserved. People who want them are going to have to adopt a sectarian rather than a parish mindset, and be willing to travel a considerable distance in order to set foot inside the churches that offer the worshipping styles and doctrines that they prefer. I understand from the Ship that many churchgoers in rural areas are already doing this.
Some people say this quite a ,lot on here and it may be true. but why should it be the good stuff that gets relegated to the rare minority taste? Why can't more people just be arsed to think about the value of inherited beauty?
How dare the majority not share my preferences?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
On a practical level, though, there are surely issues to do with finances and resources. There won't be sufficient numbers of quality organists, choirs, or clergy to ensure that every parish can provide a traditionally beautiful experience every week.
Isn't this assuming that a 'traditionally beautiful experience' of liturgy necessarily involves choirs, elaborate ceremonial, professional or quasi-professional leadership? A simple country church Evensong need have none of this; a monastic Eucharist needs neither organists nor incense nor processions to be a profound and beautiful experience... There will always (well, probably) be cathedrals to provide the grand spectacles; the average parish church is better off not trying to emulate them. As for resources, surely a high-tech 'praise service' needs much more than any traditional liturgy.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Obviously, if you take away the choirs and the organists (and even the handsome but expensive church buildings) you'll have something much more doable for many communities.
The high-tech praise service wasn't what I was thinking of as the inevitable alternative to 'traditional' worship, but that too will presumably be available for those who are willing to travel for it.
[ 05. January 2017, 10:57: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
On a practical level, though, there are surely issues to do with finances and resources. There won't be sufficient numbers of quality organists, choirs, or clergy to ensure that every parish can provide a traditionally beautiful experience every week.
Isn't this assuming that a 'traditionally beautiful experience' of liturgy necessarily involves choirs, elaborate ceremonial, professional or quasi-professional leadership? A simple country church Evensong need have none of this; a monastic Eucharist needs neither organists nor incense nor processions to be a profound and beautiful experience... There will always (well, probably) be cathedrals to provide the grand spectacles; the average parish church is better off not trying to emulate them. As for resources, surely a high-tech 'praise service' needs much more than any traditional liturgy.
Spot on.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
It behoves any church community, whatever its size, churchmanship, or whatever, to do whatever it does do well - surely Our Lord deserves nothing less.
(Apologies for the three whatevers in one sentence)
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
I am going to the kirk scot in London and it may be wet as I go and work .
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
Its a Scotish one in London and it was very good.
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
The Scots Kirk in London is Crown Court. It has this title due to being the Church of the Court of St James (i.e. the Scottish Embassy in London).
St Columbas is from United Free Church of Scotland background if my memory serves me correctly. Therefore has no role within the Scot's state.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
We have been told that what puts someone off from setting foot in our church is the approach to the church door.
Our church is surrounded by a churchyard, which is surrounded by a wall. The usual way to approach the church is through an arched gateway (the gates themselves are fixed open on a Sunday) and up a short path. On a Sunday, two people stand at the door to greet people and hand out the Order of Service.
This person has said that they don't like walking up the path being watched by the greeters. People standing smiling as they approach is, apparently, offputting. Being watched makes them feel self conscious and they are concerned that they might trip or stumble and look foolish. I've checked and it takes me 24 steps from gateway to church door, so it's not a long walk.
(There is a side entrance, but this involves walking through the room in which the choir are assembling, and would probably involve a certain amount of "excuse me-ing" which presumably this person would also find off putting.)
Has anyone else come across people being put off from setting foot inside a church because there are greeters at the door?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
My snap opinion (especially if this is the first complaint of this type) is that they're too sensitive. At least you can be grateful that they didn't demand that you exhume and move all those graves, so depressing to walk past on the way to services.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I must say, I wouldn't be keen on walking up a church path with an audience watching my 24 steps. (It sounds like the title of a story. Imagine what could happen on the way!)
The greeters should be standing discretely inside, not eyeballing new arrivals. (Otherwise they could be down at the gate, handing out notices there. But that would be unusual.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
That was rather my viewpoint as well, but I sat through a meeting in which every one else was discussing the "problem" seriously. I didn't want to be the sole dissenting voice saying "guess it sucks to be him/her"
Also, we have a congregation of about 90 to 100, so the greeters spend more time handing out Orders of Service and chatting to people than they spend watching people come up the path.
(cross posted with Svitlana)
[ 05. July 2017, 14:50: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
Standing by the gate was suggested, and would work on warm dry days. The greeters already stand outside if the weather is particularly fine. Alas, the north of Scotland is not blessed with many such warm, dry days!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We have been told that what puts someone off from setting foot in our church is the approach to the church door.
Our church is surrounded by a churchyard, which is surrounded by a wall. The usual way to approach the church is through an arched gateway (the gates themselves are fixed open on a Sunday) and up a short path. On a Sunday, two people stand at the door to greet people and hand out the Order of Service.
This person has said that they don't like walking up the path being watched by the greeters. People standing smiling as they approach is, apparently, offputting. Being watched makes them feel self conscious and they are concerned that they might trip or stumble and look foolish. I've checked and it takes me 24 steps from gateway to church door, so it's not a long walk.
(There is a side entrance, but this involves walking through the room in which the choir are assembling, and would probably involve a certain amount of "excuse me-ing" which presumably this person would also find off putting.)
Has anyone else come across people being put off from setting foot inside a church because there are greeters at the door?
I'm none too keen on greeters, period.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Has anyone else come across people being put off from setting foot inside a church because there are greeters at the door?
I will sometimes seek out a side entrance when I encounter this.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I'm trying to figure this out--are there any non-church places where this kind of thing happens? I mean, where you (general you) are an outsider voluntarily looking to visit and take part, but the place you're going to is clearly home (territorially speaking) to a bunch of people you don't know? And there's no money involved, no financial contract to set the ground rules for your interaction.
I can't think of any.
Which means that we're asking people to cross some pretty high barriers--not only going to a new place, to take part in an unfamiliar function, but to do it among strangers and in particular, in the home territory of those strangers. The only thing I can think of that's similar is being a new student at a primary or secondary school--and that doesn't tick all the same boxes, because it's not a voluntary thing.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
There have been organizations (not-for-profits, political, etc.) where I have wanted to volunteer. But the "in group" at many of them does not encourage "outsiders." It's gotten so that I can't bring myself to set foot in that sort of environment, not knowing the people and the customs that they expect me to know.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I'm rather with North East Quine on this one. So often we're criticised for not being welcoming. It's even one of the things addressed in Mystery Worshipper. And now we have someone complaining not just that they don't want to be welcomed but that they find it threatening.
None of us are psychic. Standing at an entrance with hymn books and bulletins in hand doesn't endow anyone with temporary psychic powers.
I think we have to accept that we can't please everybody, and the more unpredictable a person's foibles are, the less entitled they are to grumble when others can't read their minds.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
So often we're criticised for not being welcoming. It's even one of the things addressed in Mystery Worshipper. And now we have someone complaining not just that they don't want to be welcomed but that they find it threatening.
I think it's a question of body language: straight on confrontation vs. standing to the side and turning one's way. I'm not threatened by the latter, but I really don't like the former.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm trying to figure this out--are there any non-church places where this kind of thing happens? I mean, where you (general you) are an outsider voluntarily looking to visit and take part, but the place you're going to is clearly home (territorially speaking) to a bunch of people you don't know?
Lots of them. Parties for start. I hate walking into a room where the perception is (whether or not it's actually true) that everyone there knows everyone else except me, and I know no one except perhaps the host.
New job. Although I'm now retired, I always dreaded the first day on a job. Strange office, strange people, strange ways of doing things -- and everybody knows everything about it except me.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm rather with North East Quine on this one. So often we're criticised for not being welcoming. It's even one of the things addressed in Mystery Worshipper. And now we have someone complaining not just that they don't want to be welcomed but that they find it threatening.
I'd phrase it a little differently. I don't think it's that they don't want to be welcomed. I'd put it that they don't find what's happening at NEQ's church to be welcoming. I can sort of understand that—the image that comes to my mind is the teacher waiting for the straggling children to come in.
I am reminded of a (no cost) historical society exhibit space I sometimes frequent. They always have someone seated at a desk at the door, ready to welcome visitors, describe exhibits, ask "is this your first visit," and offer to answer questions. If things are slow, they may follow you around to point out things. Some may well find it welcoming. I find it very offputting.
The hard reality is that not everyone experiences things in the same way. What some will find welcoming, others will not. We do the best we can and hope people will at least appreciate the attempt to be welcoming.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
And stores! Please don't jump on me the minute I walk in. A smile and maybe a "good morning/afternoon" are o.k., but then leave me alone and be available if I ask for help.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
"Being Welcoming" and having someone who's job it is to stand at the door with an oily grin and pretend they're interested in total strangers by threatening them with small talk are not the same thing.
Most welcoming thing a church can do is treat newcomers exactly how they treat the established congregation. If that's "like shit if you're not one of the clique" then no amount of "greeting" is going to guild that turd.
[ 05. July 2017, 21:32: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Fair point, Karl.
No church is ever going to get it 100% right, but fair point.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
I think we are open and welcoming towards visitors. Established members of the congregation are likely to be greeted with enquiries about their hip replacement / their latest grandchild / their ailing relatives; we can't replicate that with newcomers, but we would encourage newcomers to stay for tea or coffee after the service, and people would speak to them.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
|
Posted
As to North East Quine, Quite.
I split my time between the Cathedral and a parish church. At the parish, I cannot get out of my post-ecclesiastical tea without multiple conversations. There has been a recent merger of two congregations, so there are new faces, and constant conversations (it seems to have been a successful merger - never a guaranteed thing). I cannot get out of there without some stranger striking up conversation. Part of the reason for my choosing the parish is that when first shopping around I was immediately accepted into the herd. There were no greeters with a horizon long stare. (Which I would have found off-putting.) It's about the after-party.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
"Being Welcoming" and having someone who's job it is to stand at the door with an oily grin and pretend they're interested in total strangers by threatening them with small talk are not the same thing.
Most welcoming thing a church can do is treat newcomers exactly how they treat the established congregation. If that's "like shit if you're not one of the clique" then no amount of "greeting" is going to guild that turd.
coming late to this thread, but my thoughts exactly
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
"Being Welcoming" and having someone who's job it is to stand at the door with an oily grin and pretend they're interested in total strangers by threatening them with small talk are not the same thing.
Most welcoming thing a church can do is treat newcomers exactly how they treat the established congregation. If that's "like shit if you're not one of the clique" then no amount of "greeting" is going to guild that turd.
coming late to this thread, but my thoughts exactly
I can't speak for other cultures, but in the cities and suburbs of the NE of the US, hospitality to strangers is no longer part of the majority culture (it certainly still exists among minority ethnicities, segments of the working class, and immigrants - and there are other exceptions, I am sure). This means that an emphatic welcome from members of a congregation - even if not from a designated welcomer - feels artificial both for the recipient of the welcome and for the giver. It feels like an effort has to be made not just to offer refreshment and invite to future meetings, etc., but even to be friendly and engage in introductions and small talk. It seems to be effortful and strained even for the recipient of the welcome, because they do not want to be rude to whomever is speaking to them.
As a recipient of welcomes at many churches I have visited when moving homes or merely traveling, I often feel worried about spending time talking to people welcoming me, because I worry that I will disappoint them if I do not return to that church or, even if intend on returning at least once, if I do not eventually become a member of the congregation. Although I have at times been members of Episcopal or RC parishes in places where I have lived (I know this isn't allowed for RCs), I almost always go the RC parishes when I travel, because I feel I can be anonymous in a congregation that is usually larger, healthier, and more mixed in age than any Episcopal congregation (I am 32). I am terrified to go to an Episcopal church only once or a few times where, especially if the congregation is struggling, I am often enthusiastically welcomed, invited to all kinds of things, and treated as a miracle just for being someone younger than 60 who walked through the door (I am exaggerating, of course, but my social anxiety is not exaggerated). People more socially gregarious than me might love the welcome, of course, but I do not know many of them.
Finally, I often find evangelical churches (of any or no denomination) the hardest to visit (which I have occasionally done out of curiosity), because even if the congregation is very large, healthy, and mixed (perhaps especially if this is the case), I will be targeted by a countless number of official and non-official welcoming people who not only want to a) exercise the Christian virtue of hospitality and b) help their congregation become or remain healthy in numbers and funding, but also c) really believe that they might be part of God's plan to save my soul. A and B are more true of the welcomers in evangelical parishes than just about anywhere else, and C seems to only be the case for welcomers at evangelical parishes. Even if I don't talk much, if they get any of my contact information on a list of guests that they usually encourage me to sign I often will be reached out to for months. In addition, if it is a small community that I live in, they will come up to me if they ever see me about town at the store or the gym and invite me to come again. As someone who is afraid of letting people down, I find this level of desire to "keep" me exhausting and I almost always think less of myself for turning it down.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
I must have a more self-centered nature. I never worry about disappointing the church I am visiting. Often I cannot join the congregation even if I wanted to (there is no way under the sun any average person can afford to move to Hampstead, right? And let us not even consider New York City). I accept the presence or absence of a greeter, or coffee, or a service leaflet, as the local culture -- in Europe there's often nobody at the door.
If I go into a church I am the consumer. It is for me to determine if the product on offer meets my needs, and if it doesn't I won't buy. As when I step into a store or a restaurant, all the agency and decision power lies with me, not the church. It's not precisely your fault if my needs are not met (I may be demanding and difficult) but if they aren't, I am gone.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
O dear. Pity us poor, little, backstreet, congregations, who simply cannot ever get it 100% right, or so it seems.
As Karl suggests, we simply greet and welcome newcomers/one-off-visitors/whatever in the same way as our regular (or irregular) folks, and leave the rest in God's hands.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Even if I don't talk much, if they get any of my contact information on a list of guests that they usually encourage me to sign I often will be reached out to for months.
I always beg off signing a visitor log or wearing a name tag, saying (if I have to) that I consider it a sin of pride. If still compelled, I give a false name and address. God knows who I am, and (if MWing) so does the Ship.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O dear. Pity us poor, little, backstreet, congregations, who simply cannot ever get it 100% right, or so it seems.
IJ
My favourite church that I've been a parishioner of was a backstreet, AC, poor, little place, daughter church of somewhere much grander, one service a week. It had actually been a tin tabernacle before being rebuilt as something more substantial in the 1920s.
Mind you, it did have a green marble altar and stations of the cross by Eric Gill. Oxonians will now know where I mean...
my current church averages 15 congregants on a good day, I lower the average age by perhaps nearly 40 years, and somehow we stagger on. Having said that, 15 out of a village of 200, so actually it's not bad. High days and holidays more like the high 70s.
[ 10. July 2017, 19:27: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
it is also a village of themuch commented on magic CofE pensioners. 2-3 in their 90s die, 2-3 in their sixties arrive in the village and start attending... Regular as clockwork. I think we'll be ok through to when I'm in my 60s at this rate, and that's a few decades off.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
The church I currently attend and another I have attended in the past have had rapidly dwindling and aging populations and big financial problems. Once I have committed to joining these congregations and making an annual pledge to financially support them, although I am not such a narcissist that I think I alone am holding the parish together (perhaps, with my personality, I am doing a bit of the opposite!), I worry that, if I ever move away, join a different parish because my spouse would rather go there, etc., I will effectively be pulling out a cork that I temporarily put into one of the holes in a slowly sinking boat (I tend to think in morbid analogies).
[ 10. July 2017, 21:33: Message edited by: stonespring ]
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
It would be nice if churches could remember that people with anxiety disorders and other difficulties with socialising (and having a pair of greeters stare at them as they walk up to the church ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ) exist. Particularly in the UK when that kind of forced joviality feels so fake to so many of us. I have an anxiety disorder and if there wasn't an obvious side-entrance wouldn't even bother going to North East Quine's church, I'm afraid - having greeters watch me as I walk up to the church sounds horrifying! It's not being 'too sensitive' but churches insensitively forcing an uncomfortable situation on others, see also forced small talk. Someone saying 'hello, welcome' as they hand me a service booklet and hymn book as I walk in is fine, as is someone saying hello to me after the service and asking if I enjoyed it. But many of us wish to quietly collect our thoughts and prepare our hearts before worship, and having to get into a big conversation with someone we've never met before (which in itself is quite nerve-wracking for many of us) disrupts that.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O dear. Pity us poor, little, backstreet, congregations, who simply cannot ever get it 100% right, or so it seems.
IJ
My favourite church that I've been a parishioner of was a backstreet, AC, poor, little place, daughter church of somewhere much grander, one service a week. It had actually been a tin tabernacle before being rebuilt as something more substantial in the 1920s.
Mind you, it did have a green marble altar and stations of the cross by Eric Gill. Oxonians will now know where I mean...
my current church averages 15 congregants on a good day, I lower the average age by perhaps nearly 40 years, and somehow we stagger on. Having said that, 15 out of a village of 200, so actually it's not bad. High days and holidays more like the high 70s.
I know exactly where you mean and I think it is becoming more popular thanks to its mother church's involvement with a particular church organisation. Certainly in that part of Oxford it and its mother church fulfil a particular need in terms of churches....I also feel like Oxford is quite unusual in terms of its population of church nerds, and given that there are two convents and a seminary in that part of Oxford alone, it's not exactly the same as St Thurible, Bladderwrack-Next-The-Sea.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
