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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is English really swimming both ways?
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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And I thought it was Billy Connolly - a song about Scottish national dress, wellies.

M.

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

Americans usually Yankify any English television hit instead of simply importing it. But with BBC America, a lot of British TV shows are getting exposure.


Top Gear and other motor racing channels are my current faves. On F1 races here in the US, 3 out of 4 commentators are Englishmen. The fourth man is frequently called away to car auctions and replaced by another Englishman. Having met David Hobbs once at my local racing venue I would have to say he is my favourite. I have never driven an actual race car but I did take the helm of a supercharged Jaguar saloon car a few months ago, accompanied by a former Le Mans winner. With only one or two practice laps, I was not very fast, but my wife was also along for the ride.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
If you are a farmer or proper country person you have green wellies. Otherwise they are red or black.

Here on the west of Ireland, they come in every colour and pattern, as they are used as a fashion statement. Given how much it rains, many people wear them the whole time, even when going to night-clubs and things (very odd, I know) so they make the best of a bad job by 'accessorising' them.

Did I mention that it's a bit damp around here? [Eek!]

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mousethief

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When I were a lad, green was the only color they came in. Your fashion choice was loops or no loops.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I always laugh when Americans say fanny, but that's because my inner 12 year old never really felt the need to grow up.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When I were a lad, green was the only color they came in. Your fashion choice was loops or no loops.

Didn't you see the heavy duty black ones with soles like bits of tyres and big wide tops you could get two pairs of trousers into? Sometimes with metal toe-caps? Like these.

Round here occasionally worn by people on damp construction sites but more often by farmers doing whatever things farmers do with mud and muck and heavy machinery.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Zach82
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Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

Rubbers, IIRC.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

I have no word for them because I have never spoken about them. If I ever saw one it was unknowingly.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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dj_ordinaire
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Does this refer to the big overtrousers that anglers wear? If so, then they would be called waders... They are the only vaguely similar thing I can think of!

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Zach82
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That's surprising- galoshes are ever so useful.

[ 04. October 2012, 16:41: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

I have no word for them because I have never spoken about them. If I ever saw one it was unknowingly.
I've had a job where I used overshoes. They're galoshes in the UK too.

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Robert Armin

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

Spats?

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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Spats do not cover the sole of the shoe, unlike galoshes which cover the whole shoe.

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Angloid
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Reminds me of this (which I found with a complicated Google search. If you scroll down you might find the whole poem: for the usual reasons I've just quoted a few lines:

quote:
Reminds me of a brilliant poem by the late and much-lamented "Observer" columnist, Paul Jennings. I knew I had it somewhere - a book called "The Jenguin Pennings" which has the price of 3/6d printed on the cover - it was published in 1963. I hope it gives you as much pleasure as it has me. Here it is:-

I'm having a rapprochement with galoshes
And some would say this heralds middle age;
Yes, sneering they would say
'Does he always wear pince-nez?
Old jossers wore galoshes when ladies' hats were cloches,
Ha! Woollen combinations are this dodderer's next stage!'
.....
There's nothing manly, I repeat,
In always having cold wet feet;
Galoshlessness is foolishness when sharply slants the sleet -
And I utterly refuse
The expression 'overshoes',
To make galoshes posher I would scorn this feeble ruse.
....



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churchgeek

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Just noticed this thread!

From the OP article:
quote:
Yagoda notices changes in pronunciation too - for example his students sometimes use "that sort of London glottal stop", dropping the T in words like "important" or "Manhattan".
Where I'm from (Great Lakes area), that glottal-stop "t" has been around a long time. I can't imagine an American pronouncing the t's as "t" in "important" or "Manhattan". To my ears, that would sound pretentious! I'm from Detroit, and we notoriously pronounce the second "t" in our city's name as a glottal stop. Also, Toronto natives drop the 2nd t in their cities name (as do we in Michigan), so I think that's a Great Lakes region pronunciation thing.

Ship of Fools has added "Britishisms" to my own speech. I've found myself saying some food or other has "gone off" (natively I would say it's "gone bad"), and that something was "missed out" rather than "left out." Or "meant to" instead of "supposed to" - I tend to use either one. I'm sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Not from SoF necessarily, but I think it makes more sense to fill in a form, as the British do, rather than to fill out a form, as we do in my native dialect. Curiously, we "fill out" a form, but on the form, we "fill in" blanks or other specific data points. E.g., "If you could fill out this form - you only need to fill in your name, address, and date; we'll take care of the rest."

For a few decades I've noticed my friends and I using Britishisms thanks to television and music. It's only increased thanks to the internet and BBC America, along with popular books like Harry Potter, I suppose (I've never read them). It's only natural - you find a nice phrase, you keep it. Why shouldn't that happen? (As long as others around you understand your meaning.)

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Angloid
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Americans might not all use the glottal stop but few of them, IME, pronounce the letter 'T' except as an initial consonant. It is usually something like a soft 'D". (Manhadd'n)

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Moo

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# 107

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I pronounce Manhattan with a vocalic n after the second 'a'. Man-ha-n.

Moo

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Americans might not all use the glottal stop but few of them, IME, pronounce the letter 'T' except as an initial consonant. It is usually something like a soft 'D". (Manhadd'n)

I've never heard anybody voice the T's in Manhattan.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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I've always found the inner London glottal choke, as in dropping "t"s,[<< geh - in' >> for <<getting>>] hard vocal work, adding to the difficulty of saying the word. Mind you I was brought up sounding like Prince Charles, who does NOT glottaly choke, even if he does gargle marbles.

One Americanism that gets me, and the NRSV is riddled with it, is the construction

quote:
one hundred forty four thousand
which always sounds to me like 100[x](44,000) therefore (and my maths fails me at this point) 44,000 with a shitload of zeroes after it,* rather than 144,000. Or, say "one hundred sixty nine" (the number of pancakes Little Black Sambo ate), which to me sounds like 6,900 pancakes (100 x 69) rather than 169 (one hundred and sixty nine).

Paradoxically there was a quaint extension in deep southern speak where the year 1886 would become "eighteen and eighty six", (heard at the beginning of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Mr Bojangles", in the interview with the owner of the dog that sings ... but elsewhere, too), but I think that was a generational thing.

I doubt if many bonza ockerisms have wrought their shenanigans elsewhere, and fewer kiwi-isms. Kiwis incidentally, tend to say "woman" and "women" identically, which is confusing.

*14,400,000 I think. [Confused]

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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I was incidentally staggered the first time I heard "route" pronounced like the verb "to rout", rather than "root". I gather that's mixed in the states, with either being acceptable (Rout 66, or Root 66*), but I suspect because of the computer hardware "router" the former will colonise the world.

*which of course would have a different meaning in OZ/NZ, as in "a wombat/kiwi eats roots and leaves" [Ultra confused]

[ 05. October 2012, 22:38: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Ondergard
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# 9324

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.

Where does this irritating "just saying" bollocks come from? It seems to occur in posts from Americans - or faux Americans - who want to say something offensive and think that a twee mis-spelled ending to their sentence will ward off the irritated. Not so.

I bet it came from one more in the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet.

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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I'm sure we called them 'dustbin trucks'.

We just call them the garbo truck!

Anyway, 'avagoodwekend!

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
Where does this irritating "just saying" bollocks come from? It seems to occur in posts from Americans - or faux Americans - who want to say something offensive and think that a twee mis-spelled ending to their sentence will ward off the irritated. Not so.

I bet it came from one more in the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet.

You find assertions of the superiority of the American covers of Harry Potter offensive? In a post referencing "the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet." [Roll Eyes]

[ 06. October 2012, 02:15: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I doubt if many bonza ockerisms have wrought their shenanigans elsewhere, and fewer kiwi-isms.

Didn't "uni" come from Australia, as one of the many abbreviations used in everyday speech?

(This abbreviation really jars for some reason. I never cared much for "varsity" either.)

(And I really dislike "leccy" for electricity, though that started here.)

[ 06. October 2012, 08:06: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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Clint Boggis
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Following on from Zappa's numerical thoughts, it always sounds odd to me that Americans say "three and one half" with the redundant, often "one". We'd always say three-and-a-half" with a barely-enunciated '-a-'. Many fractions do need fully specifying (two thirds, three quarters, seven eights) but no-one would doubt the number of halves in a quantity as you can only ever have one.

[ 06. October 2012, 09:58: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
but I suspect because of the computer hardware "router" the former will colonise the world.

Even in computer stores it is pronounced rooter. No sign of a takeover here.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
One Americanism that gets me, and the NRSV is riddled with it, is the construction

quote:
one hundred forty four thousand
which always sounds to me like 100[x](44,000)
There is an Anglicized Edition of the NRSV, but then there'd probably be Britishisms in there you wouldn't like.

quote:
I doubt if many bonza ockerisms have wrought their shenanigans elsewhere, and fewer kiwi-isms.
Though we wouldn't use the phrase, we do understand what a chunder in the dunny is.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
one hundred forty four thousand ]which always sounds to me like 100[x](44,000)
There is an Anglicized Edition of the NRSV, but then there'd probably be Britishisms in there you wouldn't like.
... ooo, no, I'd cope with them.
,
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
we do understand what a chunder in the dunny is.

I don't, of course. [Disappointed]

Incidentally I went to varsity in Enzed, but when I came and went again in Oz it was Uni, and now I think Uni has taken over in EnZed

College in both these antipodean countries would be what one goes to from about aged 13-18 ... [Frown]

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:


(And I really dislike "leccy" for electricity, though that started here.)

Don't know where 'here' is, but I thought it was a scouseism. There's a large housing estate on the fringe of Liverpool divided by a road, and the sides were distinguished by whether they had mains gas (the Gas side) or not, (the Leccy side).

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Lone voice: I'm not!

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I've always found the inner London glottal choke...

Glottal stop. And its not just inner London its the whole urban south-east of England. I was brought up speaking like that in the 1950s and 60s in Brighton. (And we used to say "innit")

Effectively all English speakers use glottal stops for inter-vocalic /t/ at least sometimes. Down here in the south-east of England we do it almost all the time.

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Even in computer stores it is pronounced rooter. No sign of a takeover here.

Or in the south-east of England, "ROO'uh" [Smile]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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mousethief

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For years I lived in a city here called Renton, but you rarely said "ren-tun"; the natives call it re'un with a glottal stop in the middle. And we're a good few thousand miles from SE England.

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Zach82
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quote:
...it always sounds odd to me that Americans say "three and one half"
Not me- I would usually say "Three anna-haff"

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I've always found the inner London glottal choke...

Glottal stop. And its not just inner London its the whole urban south-east of England.
Plus Grea'er Manchester. (I think they sound the T after an S. Difficult not to)

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mousethief

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I say something close to "three yunna half."

ETA: I think "three and one half" would be in more formal situations, say on a newscast.

[ 06. October 2012, 13:47: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.

Where does this irritating "just saying" bollocks come from? It seems to occur in posts from Americans - or faux Americans - who want to say something offensive and think that a twee mis-spelled ending to their sentence will ward off the irritated. Not so.

I bet it came from one more in the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet.

I first heard it about 10 years ago from a Californian friend who was supply-teaching in the rough end of Oakland. I gather that she heard the expression from Black or Latino teenagers who wanted to make points without challenging another to a fight. By the middle part of that decade, I came to hear it on US television programmes.

A social linguist acquaintance confirms this dating. She has just finished a splendid academic paper on the use of "absolutely" as an emphatic positive response, dating it to 1991-- it has since appeared in novels and films set in Victorian times and the 1940s and 1950s. There is a apparently a circle of language geeks who watch films set in other periods for linguistic anachronisms such as this. I suppose that it keeps them out of billiard parlours.

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Angloid
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# 159

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I'm reading The House of Silk by Anthony Horowitz, which is a sort of spoof Sherlock Holmes novel. Purportedly written by Dr Watson around 1912 and embargoed for 100 years because of its politically sensitive nature. It is very well done and captures Watson's plodding style, but I keep getting subconsciously jarred by what I sense are anachronisms but can't put my finger on.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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The one place I do use a glottal stop instead of a 't' is at the end of 'that' in the phrase, 'that one'.

Moo

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I've always found the inner London glottal choke...

Glottal stop.
Sarcasm clearly wasted. [Disappointed]

(As it happens I come from South-east England, but never mind).

I also find the US construction
quote:
X died September 24, 2009
awkward. Sort of a conjunction free zone. [Confused]

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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'sceuse me when I come back to the wellies. Somehow I've got it in my mind that Elizabeth Windsor wears green wellies. QED: Green wellies are posh.

I gather that "tidy" and "lush" have meandered from south Wales (never heard them in the north) to England-English, so I wonder if they'll meander to America as well.

If I am allowed to offer a tangent: People who've been in seminars where I've been interpreting have picked up words like "sound" (to mean "good"), "dead" (to mean "very"), "deffo" (to mean "certainly") and "gobshite" (to mean "Man Utd fan"). I've heard people from Belarus, Germany and Russia using those words as consequence.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Rosa Winkel:
quote:
I gather that "tidy" and "lush" have meandered from south Wales (never heard them in the north) to England-English, so I wonder if they'll meander to America as well.
In what context would you use them?

I've usually heard "lush" used to describe lawn grass or garden foliage. Or mascaraed eye-lashes on TV commercials. [Roll Eyes]

Tidy not so much, but occasionally someone will say, "I'll tidy up" instead of "I'll clean up". "Tidy" generally means lighter work than "clean".

I've heard both words used at times all my life, 50+ years, in California.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
("just saying") I first heard it about 10 years ago from a Californian friend who was supply-teaching in the rough end of Oakland. I gather that she heard the expression from Black or Latino teenagers who wanted to make points without challenging another to a fight.
In that context, not "bollocks" at all. It was a good adaptation to keep conversing without resorting to violence. And street violence can get ugly in some neighborhoods.

BTW, Ondergard, the word "bollocks" isn't a favorite of mine either, but life is too short to stop and savor a moment of irritation. Just sayin'. [Razz]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Martha
Shipmate
# 185

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Those are the standard meanings, but I'm assuming Rosa Winkel is referring to their more slangy sense. Lush is a Bristol-ism as well as a Welsh-ism, often in the phrase "gert lush", which the Urban Dictionary defines as "The highest form of praise that can be given to anything by a Bristolian."

Tidy has a similar meaning of great, good - I'd maybe use it in the phrase, "That's a tidy bit of work" meaning a substantial job well done.

Martha, ex-Bristolian

(That was aimed at Lyda Rose's previous post.)

[ 07. October 2012, 02:55: Message edited by: Martha ]

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Ah, thanks!

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I was incidentally staggered the first time I heard "route" pronounced like the verb "to rout", rather than "root". I gather that's mixed in the states, with either being acceptable (Rout 66, or Root 66*), but I suspect because of the computer hardware "router" the former will colonise the world.

*which of course would have a different meaning in OZ/NZ, as in "a wombat/kiwi eats roots and leaves" [Ultra confused]

In Canada, Roots is a major clothing store; apparently items like this sweatshirt are frequently souvenirs for folks from the Antipodes.

On the root/rout item, in the computer industry I hear both but more often the "oo" version. And that includes in phone conversations between California, Ottawa, and Israel. YMMV. That is, a "rooter" is where you direct the packets with "root add" (and if it's Unix, with "root privilege") even though the command is typed "route add", and the hardware device is inventoried as "router".

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
In Canada, Roots is a major clothing store;

See, now, when I saw that, I read it in my head to rhyme with soots, not boots or flouts. "oo" is ambiguous because it could be like the "oo" in good or the "oo" in food. In my idiolect, at least, when the word "roots" stands by itself, it has the "oo" of "good." Pronouncing it with a long "oo" sounds overprecise or stuffy.

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
Those are the standard meanings, but I'm assuming Rosa Winkel is referring to their more slangy sense. Lush is a Bristol-ism as well as a Welsh-ism, often in the phrase "gert lush", which the Urban Dictionary defines as "The highest form of praise that can be given to anything by a Bristolian."

It might have become more widespread since the proliferation of the Lush stores (the ones that sell huge blocks of soap you can buy a chunk of, etc etc).

ETA there was a time when "lush" could also mean someone who usually drank too much. "He's an old lush."

[ 07. October 2012, 08:11: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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'Lush' in the Bristol sense was also prevalent in the North East (of England) back in the late seventies.

About American dates (not the things you eat): I don't understand the logic of putting month/day/year when you could start with the smallest and go up to the biggest with day/month/year. 7 October 2012 - or 07-10-12 - makes more sense to me than 10-07-12. I know some British people, even more illogically, use the American way when using the name of the month, but in numerical form it is always the other.

9/11 threw me for a long time, but I realise the poignant connection with the emergency phone number.

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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Ogiginally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
A social linguist acquaintance confirms this dating. She has just finished a splendid academic paper on the use of "absolutely" as an emphatic positive response, dating it to 1991
I was using it in that sense when I was at college in the late 70's.

M.

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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I can date that use of absolutely back into the early 80s too

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