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Source: (consider it) Thread: Olaf
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Being on call 24/7 is unbiblical. Stop trying to make your local priest breach the basic principles of Godly living.

Priests: take comfort in the fact that even Jesus got nagged when he was trying to get some rest. "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?" (Mark 4:38)

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:

Stop Whinging and get on with "it" for (literally) heavens sake man get some gratitude in your life.


Honest to God, Pyx_e. [Overused]

This is something we all need to hear from time to time. I'm as guilty as anyone of bitching instead of being grateful.

On the other hand, I don't want to be too hard on Olaf. He is a high-church Protestant in a resolutely MOTR denomination. So the options are 1) adjust expectations, 2) move to another denomination/communion/jurisdiction, or 3) stay and try, possibly fruitlessly, to influence the way things are done.

Being in a place which is for me a good fit, I'm very thankful I don't face that situation.

Counterpoint, though : the essence of the priesthood is, it seems to me, the celebration of the Eucharist. This is the central act of Christian worship, and from it everything else flows. The top priority of a priest (in any church with a catholic conception of the priesthood) ought to be the celebration of the Holy Communion. Bounden duty and service, right?

Sadly, I've met too many priests who seem to feel that the liturgy is an unpleasant duty to be avoided when possible and to be dispensed with as quickly as possible when it can't be avoided. These are the people who, when asked why the became priests, say "Because I want to help people." Fucking hell, Jack, if you want to help people become a social worker. The job of a priest is to bring people closer to Jesus.

Well, yes, I'm grateful for that, Fr. Weber.

I quit my UMC after many years because the new pastor had been there for eight months without a single communion. I slipped away quietly because I didn't like to complain (really.)

The new church was a perfect fit for me and I loved the pastor as did every other person I talked to during the two years he and I were both there. So it's not true that everyone complains all the time.

Then he left and we got a new pastor. She was there for over a year and during that time she did one thing only. She did the Sunday service complete with Eucharist and a fluffy ten minute sermon. That was all. She never once kept the Wednesday or Saturday office hours she had promised, she went to zero meetings or home visitations, and worst of all, she never returned a single phone call. Lifetime members of that church died and were buried without her help.

So should those nice people have been grateful for her, Pyxe?

I would love to have a priest like Pyxe. I imagine his sermons are awesome and he would give me many, much needed kicks in my flimsy faith, but there are bad pastors and its really all too important for entire congregations to have to depend on them.

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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Oh my. A few points:

First, I never suggested clergy be available 24/7. I fully support not one but two, yes two consecutive days off each and every week. I'd love to see more ecumenical collaboration to make this happen, by handling each other's emergencies. Our church does it this way with vacations, and it seems to work well. I'd also be perfectly okay with a month or more of vacation per year--real, drop-everything vacation--including Sundays. That is far more than most Americans receive.

Second, I realize clergy are busy. Most of us are very busy people. Yet even on my busiest day, I am able to squeeze some time out when needs arise. Thirty minutes out of a week certainly isn't the same as jumping to 24/7 availability, yet with any suggestion of further clerical responsibility, the discussion seems to gravitate toward this. I did something like this just today.

I reiterate what I mentioned earlier: we laypeople are at your mercy on sacramental issues. I actually get along fine with my own pastor, and I simply shrugged off the incident about Ascension. I did not expect there to be an instant agreement to my request, and my pastor knows very well that my help could be expected in such an instance. I do so all the time.

As for my high church leanings, as mentioned above, you are absolutely right. I am certainly not alone in Lutheranism, but I am farther that direction than many nowadays.

The honest answer to why I don't leave is simply that I belong doctrinally where I am. Not perfectly, perhaps, but we all know that finding the perfect fit is not always a given. Issues of churchpersonship in Lutheranism very often rest with the pastor, who in Lutheranism far more than in Catholicism or Anglicanism has control in a congregation. Sure, there might be push-back or complaining from a congregation, but if a pastor chooses to dismiss the church musician, hire another one, and completely change the worship style, it can and does happen. Pastors come and pastors go, but their tenure can be quite long in many cases.

Hopefully this clarifies my position, which is far less calculated than many suggest. I am making my best effort to understand it from a pastor's perspective, and I certainly hope that the ordained here will do likewise.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Your synod must be very very different than mine. A pastor here attempting to interfere in a major way with the music is likely to get it back from the church council up any of several orifices.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
in any voluntary organisation, there is always a small core of individuals who will roll their sleeves up and get on with the work, and a much larger group of others who will stand around and complain, but not do a hand's turn themselves. I wonder why this is? [Mad]

Because there is a much larger group who will say "Why did you do it that way?" than one who will say "Thanks for doing it that way."
Or, "You did that wrong."

Or, "It took you long enough/why didn't you do that earlier/read my mind?"

Or, "why aren't you/why isn't someone else doing more?"

Lyda*Rose - awesome story.

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Leaf
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I fully support not one but two, yes two consecutive days off each and every week... I'd also be perfectly okay with a month or more of vacation per year--real, drop-everything vacation--including Sundays.

In other words, you support normal middle-class working conditions. It's possible that in an American employment context, this makes you enlightened.

quote:
Second, I realize clergy are busy. Most of us are very busy people.
How patronizing.
quote:
Yet even on my busiest day, I am able to squeeze some time out when needs arise. Thirty minutes out of a week certainly isn't the same as jumping to 24/7 availability
Do you mean this to refer to an Ascension Day service? Do you think this would involve thirty minutes? Let's review the math.
  • Does your pastor live in a little tower in the belfry? No? Add travel time to and from home.
  • Would you like your pastor to be prepared to lead the liturgy? Add liturgical preparation time.
  • Would there be a sermon, even a brief one? Add homiletical preparation time.
  • Does your pastor have a family (gasp!) with activities that may need to be rearranged around this? Add rearrangement time. Does all of this still add up to thirty minutes?

quote:
I reiterate what I mentioned earlier: we laypeople are at your mercy on sacramental issues.
If you are in a remote area and find it difficult to find access, this is a problem. Which of the various mooted solutions do you support: local ordination, reserved sacrament, licensed laypersons?
quote:
I actually get along fine with my own pastor, and I simply shrugged off the incident about Ascension.
No. You did not shrug it off. It stung you to the point that you played it up in the Styx, in order to gain sympathy. "Poor Olaf! He was laughed at - yes, actually laughed at - for this perfectly legitimate request!" If you had shrugged it off you wouldn't have mentioned it.

quote:
The honest answer to why I don't leave is simply that I belong doctrinally where I am.
Then you might consider finding more productive ways of coping with your frustrations than taking potshots at clergy. No doubt you will have learned Luther's explanation of the Eighth Commandment somewhere along the way: "We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, speak well of him, and explain his actions in the kindest possible way." Give it a try, my Internet neighbour.

quote:
Hopefully this clarifies my position, which is far less calculated than many suggest. I am making my best effort to understand it from a pastor's perspective, and I certainly hope that the ordained here will do likewise.
You give no evidence of attempting to understand a pastor's perspective. On the contrary, you spend a great deal of effort justifying yourself. Such efforts are pointless, you know; you ARE justified by grace through Jesus Christ.
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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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Olaf, what the ever-living fuck are you on?

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:

"We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, speak well of him, and explain his actions in the kindest possible way." Give it a try, my Internet neighbour.


So was that Leaf, defending Olaf and explaining his actions in the kindest possible way?

Are some of you actually saying that on a message board dedicated to expressing Christian unrest we aren't supposed to complain about clergy?

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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No at all, but they sure as hell get to complain back. Especially since ordinarily they have to shut up and deal with complaints in a benevolent, pastoral manner. Here they get to be rageaholic savages, praise God.

Ain't the Ship wonderful?

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Is it time for my annual St Valentine already?

Bi-annual surely? I barely give you a thought except when
I see a post defending the clergy or moaning about your lot.

Do you remember your post from October 2006 containing the line: "To lead in a Christian context is to be hated, reviled and mocked. Priests learn that one week after ordination."? (I've kept the quote because it is in a short thread of PMs I exchanged at the time with Erin).

When I challenged you back then you slunk off and never replied. You've done the same every time when challenged since. So a final time. Why are priests not to be criticised? What is it about a priest's life (hated, reviled, mocked) that's so different from other professional experiences?

Paperboy, of course I remember that quote, I have an encyclopaedic brain, remembering everything everybody ever wrote. 2006 !!!??? Sheesh.

Anyway your options are:

1/ Start a Purg thread, I can put up an argument which support my alleged statement. This will give you the chance to get over your 8 year old resentment.

2/ Continue to be pretty much ignored by me because my Mum taught me to never argue with someone who buys ink by the barrel. Also I find you (or the be precise your online persona) to be unfriendly, unfunny, unrepentant and pedantic. Whilst many shipmates fall into a couple of those categories you are one of the few who ticks all the boxes.

As others have noted, time to stop salivating every time someone rings my bell.

Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Gentlemen, may I invite you to purgatory?

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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You can if you can find any gentlemen.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Boom tish.

I think you'll find my standards sufficiently low.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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I'm not certain Olaf has always expressed himself in the most tactful way possible, but I do have some sympathy for his surprise that a major feast receives short shrift in a liturgical church. Except for Christmas, Easter, and perhaps Pentecost I'd be hard pressed to name a more important feast day.

I don't think that's really the issue, though--somehow Olaf managed to step into the cow-pat of lay-clerical relations. After that, Ascension Day became a very minor footnote.

I don't think it's fair to then saddle Olaf with every resentment for every parishioner that makes an inappropriate call on the rector's day off. Perhaps I'm not the best person to comment on that, though--in my trade I've discovered priests and ministers are no more likely to respect my time off either.

I get a LOT of exposure to priests and ministers and from a wide variety of denominations. Some of them are truly the salt of the Earth. There are some on the Ship that I am quite certain are living saints. I would stop and reflect on any post they chose to make. If I found myself near their parish on a Sunday, I would make extraordinary efforts to attend.

A lot of priests and ministers also truly suck at their jobs, and one wonders how they managed to slip through the discernment process. Even when I agree with what they may be saying, they make me cringe at the unhelpful way in which they manage to say it. To pretend these people do not exist is to lose credibility; we all know they do, whether or not we choose to admit it to each other over the clerical-lay divide.

Most, though, are in the middle--muddling along the best they know how, trying to be better Christians and sometimes mucking it up. Surprisingly, perhaps, these are the clerics I like best and from whom I usually learn the most.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Most, though, are in the middle--muddling along the best they know how, trying to be better Christians and sometimes mucking it up.

In other words, people.

quote:
Surprisingly, perhaps, these are the clerics I like best and from whom I usually learn the most.
Not really surprising. Both Superman and Lex Luther are remote and not particularly approachable. And, their life experience is so different from you and me it's difficult to know what they can teach.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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Precisely, Alan. And we have a lot of that type on the Ship, too.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
A lot of priests and ministers also truly suck at their jobs, and one wonders how they managed to slip through the discernment process. Even when I agree with what they may be saying, they make me cringe at the unhelpful way in which they manage to say it. To pretend these people do not exist is to lose credibility; we all know they do, whether or not we choose to admit it to each other over the clerical-lay divide.

I don't think I've ever had a parish minister or priest who I thought was genuinely lousy at it. Some are better than others, to be sure, and some I disagreed with profoundly, but I don't think I've encountered any who were really bad. Lousy Archdeacons, on the other hand... [Devil]
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Jack o' the Green
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# 11091

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Not really surprising. Both Superman and Lex Luther are remote and not particularly approachable. And, their life experience is so different from you and me it's difficult to know what they can teach.

Losing your hair can make you bitter and twisted, and underpants should always be worn underneath.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
A lot of priests and ministers also truly suck at their jobs, and one wonders how they managed to slip through the discernment process. Even when I agree with what they may be saying, they make me cringe at the unhelpful way in which they manage to say it. To pretend these people do not exist is to lose credibility; we all know they do, whether or not we choose to admit it to each other over the clerical-lay divide.

I don't think I've ever had a parish minister or priest who I thought was genuinely lousy at it. Some are better than others, to be sure, and some I disagreed with profoundly, but I don't think I've encountered any who were really bad. Lousy Archdeacons, on the other hand... [Devil]
So bad you had to go a place without them, eh?
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I'm not certain Olaf has always expressed himself in the most tactful way possible, but I do have some sympathy for his surprise that a major feast receives short shrift in a liturgical church. Except for Christmas, Easter, and perhaps Pentecost I'd be hard pressed to name a more important feast day.

Whereas I don't recall any of my churches EVER having an Ascension Day service.

Or maybe it was just so trivial in my world that I ignored it.

But my experience has always been that Ascension is mentioned as part of the following Sunday.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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Olaf should come over to the dark side. My Church always celebrates Ascension - it is always translated to the nearest Sunday.

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Even more so than I was before

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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I suppose some of that might be regional--more decades ago than I care to admit when I was in college in the Midwest US, one could even find the occasional Baptist church with an Ascension Day service (and it is difficult to find a less liturgical creature than a US Baptist).

Ascension Day marks a major event in the life of Jesus. At a time when just about every church in the US has a service on the national Thanksgiving Day, one might think that worthy of a yearly service.

I've sung in Ascension Day choirs at least three times that I can still remember; it's not quite as unusual as a Celebration of the Feast of King Charles the Martyr.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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It seems that the ordained stick together, which is quite admirable. Do keep in mind that some of you are dedicated shepherds, while there are others in the world who are not. Maybe not many, but they do exist. My statement, while it may have inadvertently hurt those dedicated people who have given their lives to the ministry (for which I have apologized, and for which I even apogize again), comes from a world where not every person is as zealous in their vocation as others. If you've never had to deal with this in your own experience with your own clergy before the laying on of hands, then you are fortunate. If you've never had to deal with colleagues like this, then you are likewise fortunate. I am not as fortunate, nor is my congregation.

Yet, the instant reaction to my comment, which is more reflective of my experience than anybody else's here, leads me to wonder. My own profession takes quite a bit of jabbing, yet I am able to separate attacks on the profession itself from attacks on my person. Notably, personal attacks are something I did not do here to you, but many have done so to me. I'm not prepared to state that your vocation is better than anybody else's, or that it deserves to be held as a privileged caste. That is the Protestant side in me, I know, but it seems many who have jumped into this discussion also fall on this same side of the Reformation. Maybe my mind will change with time, but it doesn't seem right at this moment for me.

As many of our churches face dwindling numbers, many of you here are more and more often going to have to justify your duties. Do you keep and report an inventory of your time management? Do you share and report it to your councils or superiors? I'm sure many do. I'd never ask a pastor to do this, and I would speak up against it happening as a requirement, but I certainly know many congregational council members, treasurers, etc. who certainly would do this. I wouldn't ask a pastor to even keep an eight-hour office day, but this was actually stated and echoed by many in my congregation. My own congregation, and many of its neighbors, have considered hiring part-time ministers. Yes, they exist around here. They're mostly retired folk looking for extra money. We must give great credit to the "tent-makers" among us who already work multiple jobs to make ends meet.

Do I support local ordination? Yes. Do I have a problem with reserved sacrament? Absolutely not. Am I calling out the fact that some pastors are busier than others, in some cases having very little to do and in others being overwhelmed? You bet. You can contradict it all you want, but I've spent way too much time in church offices to know better. There's also a lot to be said for the sole priest of a "small" parish of 10,000 with three vocational deacons who all have day jobs and can't help during the week (an extremely common occurrence around here), who says mass five to six times a week. Then there's the sole priest of a parish of 100 with an average attendance of 30, and one mass a week.

It's easy to jump to the defense of simply because they are both ordained, but I'm not so sure that deference to the fact that they are both ordained justifies defending both of their jobs as equally grueling.

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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It shouldn't be that difficult to admit that there are clergy who are unfit for the job. Even Jesus had an 8.3% failure rate when he chose his Apostles.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:

"We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, speak well of him, and explain his actions in the kindest possible way." Give it a try, my Internet neighbour.


So was that Leaf, defending Olaf and explaining his actions in the kindest possible way?

Well yes, actually. I did not call Olaf names (although I do keep a selection of choice adjectives and nouns in a jar beside the keyboard, and I admit I was tempted. But in this case I did not choose to use them). I did not attribute his comments to malice or stupidity but to frustration. I provided solid spiritual advice. I did challenge him when I felt his interpretation of his own actions and motivations was overly generous to himself, but I rather think that fits the thrust of Luther's commentary.

You, on the other hand... I think I might deal with you differently
[Axe murder] but that is because you are not Olaf.

Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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Olaf,

Thank you for your apogy. However, this bit of your post was surprising, filled with straw, and misdirected:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Am I calling out the fact that some pastors are busier than others, in some cases having very little to do and in others being overwhelmed? You bet. You can contradict it all you want, but I've spent way too much time in church offices to know better.

Who is contradicting you? What are you talking about? Is this a point that anyone was arguing? Why this sudden narrative of knowledge and superiority on your part, about something only you seem to be arguing?

I would be interested in hearing a more direct response from you to Pyx_e's OP, as there were some pretty strong challenges to you in there. Ah well.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
It seems that the ordained stick together, which is quite admirable.

Great. And now you might want to formulate some kind of meaningful reply to the laity among us.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Yep.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
My statement, while it may have inadvertently hurt those dedicated people who have given their lives to the ministry (for which I have apologized, and for which I even apogize again), comes from a world where not every person is as zealous in their vocation as others.

Ah, so you're from the "better to kill 10 innocent men than let one guilty man go free" school. Very Christ-like, I'm sure.

quote:
Yet, the instant reaction to my comment, which is more reflective of my experience than anybody else's here, leads me to wonder.
"Gee, I wonder why, when I took a vicious slash at a whole group of people, only some of whom have offended me, people reacted badly. I can't even possibly imagine. If only someone could explain why my vitriol and red-hot spleen weren't greeted with more acceptance!"

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fletcher christian

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# 13919

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posted by Olaf:
quote:

I'm not prepared to state that your vocation is better than anybody else's, or that it deserves to be held as a privileged caste

Perhaps you could indicate the 'many' who have stated this on this thread? I seem to be missing that on my screen here.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
My statement, while it may have inadvertently hurt those dedicated people who have given their lives to the ministry (for which I have apologized, and for which I even apogize again), comes from a world where not every person is as zealous in their vocation as others.

This is true in every single occupation.

Sweeping generalisations simply don't cover it. And this is your problem, sweeping generalisations. I would stay away from them here if I were you.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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I could not survive on a CofE clergyperson's stipend, still less on that of a Catholic clergyman. Hats off to those who do.

[ 04. June 2014, 10:39: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I'm not certain Olaf has always expressed himself in the most tactful way possible, but I do have some sympathy for his surprise that a major feast receives short shrift in a liturgical church. Except for Christmas, Easter, and perhaps Pentecost I'd be hard pressed to name a more important feast day.

Whereas I don't recall any of my churches EVER having an Ascension Day service.

GASP! In the CAPITOL??? (double gasp).

My coupla hundred congo local has one.

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
It shouldn't be that difficult to admit that there are clergy who are unfit for the job. Even Jesus had an 8.3% failure rate when he chose his Apostles.

No. He had a 100% failure rate. They were all rather stupid knobs most of the time. Oh. And they deserted him too when push came to shove...

As for Judas. He wasn't a failure. He was destined for that role.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
...
As many of our churches face dwindling numbers, many of you here are more and more often going to have to justify your duties. Do you keep and report an inventory of your time management? Do you share and report it to your councils or superiors? I'm sure many do. I'd never ask a pastor to do this, and I would speak up against it happening as a requirement, but I certainly know many congregational council members, treasurers, etc. who certainly would do this. I wouldn't ask a pastor to even keep an eight-hour office day, but this was actually stated and echoed by many in my congregation. My own congregation, and many of its neighbors, have considered hiring part-time ministers. Yes, they exist around here. They're mostly retired folk looking for extra money. We must give great credit to the "tent-makers" among us who already work multiple jobs to make ends meet.

Most Pastors work well over an eight hour day, but you seem to be implying that most do considerably less than that.

Part time ministry is already happening. Part time works when the congregation accespts that part time means really means part time. Rather than full time hours for part time money. The church would still have stump for accomodation, expenses etc. Most of the people who go for it are either retired ministers, married to someone in a well paid job or working two jobs.

Hiring a retired minister who's willing to work for less money may solve one problem - but means there are less positions available for ministers coming out of college or looking for their next role. If churches aren't offering opportunities for the next generation to develop their skills and career etc, then they're going to have real issues when those retired ministers finally retire for good.

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:

Do I support local ordination? Yes. Do I have a problem with reserved sacrament? Absolutely not. Am I calling out the fact that some pastors are busier than others, in some cases having very little to do and in others being overwhelmed? You bet. You can contradict it all you want, but I've spent way too much time in church offices to know better. There's also a lot to be said for the sole priest of a "small" parish of 10,000 with three vocational deacons who all have day jobs and can't help during the week (an extremely common occurrence around here), who says mass five to six times a week. Then there's the sole priest of a parish of 100 with an average attendance of 30, and one mass a week.

It's easy to jump to the defense of simply because they are both ordained, but I'm not so sure that deference to the fact that they are both ordained justifies defending both of their jobs as equally grueling.

Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]


The Minister with an attendance of 30 and a Parish of 100 might also be running a food bank, doing pastoral visits, schools work, building inter-church relationships, organising the safeguarding programme etc

The minister with a small parish of 10,000 might have a team who does the pastoral visits and runs the food banks etc, but is also doing schools work, running the youth club, the safeguarding etc.

How about giving equal credit to all who serve in church regardless of whether they're ordained or not?! Rather than playing the numbers game to work out how is a slacker and who isn't.

Tubbs

[ 04. June 2014, 14:48: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]

No, but saying Mass is the only thing they do that cannot be done by anyone else.

If the rest of the congregation wants a youth group, foodbank or closer relationship with the parish next door but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they can do it anyway. If the rest of the congregation wants an extra Communion service but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they're shit out of luck.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]

No, but saying Mass is the only thing they do that cannot be done by anyone else.

If the rest of the congregation wants a youth group, foodbank or closer relationship with the parish next door but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they can do it anyway. If the rest of the congregation wants an extra Communion service but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they're shit out of luck.

Shit out of luck and bus-timetables. Bummer.

Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I've not met the pastor who refuses to put on an extra communion service for a congregation that wants it (and will turn up) because he'd rather do social work. Seriously.

What I have met are pastors who would gladly do the extra services (many agitate for them) but nobody will turn up. While at the same time the pastors are under constant pressure to do the food bankery, ecumenicalwhatsit, bus route, administrivia, etc. because "it's your job, Pastor, and we have to work and take care of our families."

Perhaps the pastor ought to say "Hell no, you can do the stuff you're pressuring me to do and I'll hold an Ascension Day service to which one or two people will turn up, no more." Perhaps he ought. But given the immense pressure from the whole congregation to do the reverse...

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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It is extremely disheartening when, in our Congregationalist tradition, we spend time in Church Meeting deciding to put on an event - only to find, on the day, virtually no-one comes.

This has happened with our Harvest Evening service; many people say, "Oh, we must have that" but then stay home watching TV.

It seems that people are often quite good at making decisions like this, which they then feel should only apply to other people.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]

No, but saying Mass is the only thing they do that cannot be done by anyone else.

If the rest of the congregation wants a youth group, foodbank or closer relationship with the parish next door but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they can do it anyway. If the rest of the congregation wants an extra Communion service but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they're shit out of luck.

What actually happens in many places is that they want a youth group, foodbank and closer relationship with the parish next door - or say they do - but 'want' it in a kind of intellectual, I can have a warm satisfied glow if we have these things kind of way. Which involves not lifting a bloody finger to generate these things but having a fit of pique if the Minister withdraws from supplying them in order to provide the other warm, satisfying glow of having an Ascension Day service.

Congregations can sometimes be little more than consumers of theological services.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]

No, but saying Mass is the only thing they do that cannot be done by anyone else.
If there's a requirement for a particular service, that can be arranged by non-ordained members of the church. If you can't find an organist, or someone else to play music, you can decide whether to have hymns and if so select hymns that can be sung unaccompanied. If no one is willing to preach a 20 minute homily, find people to share short thoughts on the readings.

In many, but not all, traditions if you want Communion then that part of the service would need to be lead by an ordained minister. If you can't get an ordained minister interested then you'll have to have a service without Communion.

It's not rocket science. If someone thinks marking Ascension with a service on Thursday is important then they can arrange a service to mark that. The nature of that service - choice of music/hymns, existence and length of sermon, with or without Communion - is going to be a function of those who can attend and want to assist in organisation. If it's important to celebrate an event with a church service it must surely be better to have a service that doesn't tick all the boxes than to have no service at all.

If you can organise a service of 20 people but there's no minister for Communion that puts you in a strong position to get the minister to participate next year, or good basis to write a letter to complain that the minister couldn't be arsed to come. On the other hand, if you can't get anyone else interested in holding such a service then you can't blame the minister for considering his other duties are more important than leading a Communion service for you.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Evensong
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# 14696

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[Overused]

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a theological scrapbook

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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Yes, hear hear, Alan. And I think orfeo is bang on the money about church attenders sometimes (often...?) being little more than consumers. If people think something is important then surely, surely, surely they should put whatever effort they can into making it happen themselves, instead of merely complaining that someone (usually the minister, of course) should make it happen.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Rowen
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# 1194

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As we planned for Christmas Eve, some years ago, I told Parish Council my plans. I minister in a very remote and rural parish, in a special denominational unit that deals with the utterly remote ministries. I will travel two hours out from our tiny town, to one of my frontier churches, I said, and do a Christmas Eve service, and then drive home. (With another two hour drive). But here in town, I suggested "you all attend the ecumenical Christmas BBQ and carols in tne park (Christmas is in summer here). If you want a midnight service, and as I would not yet be home, you could walk across the road, from my church, to the Anglican Church, and go there." I would do a morning service, however, on Christmas Day.
Most people thought that was reasonable. Some were very distressed that I was abandoning the town church, the mother church, as it were, and leaving them alone and unloved at this most holy of nights. So, I said that if they were that set on an Eve service, then they could do it themselves. Whilst initially excited, in the end, they saw reason, and agreed with my plans...
For weeks after, people around town asked me if it was true I had cruelly laughed at the church council and told them they had to do all Christmas worship services whilst I had parties and orgies and stuff. Even tne hairdresser asked, in all seriousness, about this. Sighsighsigh.
Eventually though, in the end, we had a lovely Christmas. But I am sure some parish councillors still believe the old orgy/party perspective.
Sometimes you can't win.

[ 05. June 2014, 08:27: Message edited by: Rowen ]

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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...

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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If you can organise a service of 20 people but there's no minister for Communion that puts you in a strong position to get the minister to participate next year, or good basis to write a letter to complain that the minister couldn't be arsed to come. On the other hand, if you can't get anyone else interested in holding such a service then you can't blame the minister for considering his other duties are more important than leading a Communion service for you.

In traditions that center on the Mass, however, it is the focal point of the worship service. Music, a sermon, etc. can all be considered extraneous, but the Mass itself cannot.

In my high-church parish, daily mass entails only the priest and one attendant server, and even he is technically superfluous. The liturgy itself does not have to change, so there really is very little effort needed. In nearly all traditions, the Ascension ranks right behind Easter/The Triduum in terms of importance. Furthermore, if the priest really has an unavoidable conflict, he can always arrange for someone from another parish to celebrate the Mass instead. If attendance is the main concern, multiple parishes can combine for a single service, as some parishes local to me regularly do.

I am unsure if there are many good excuses for omitting observance of the Ascension.

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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What actually happens in many places is that they want a youth group, foodbank and closer relationship with the parish next door - or say they do - but 'want' it in a kind of intellectual, I can have a warm satisfied glow if we have these things kind of way. Which involves not lifting a bloody finger to generate these things but having a fit of pique if the Minister withdraws from supplying them in order to provide the other warm, satisfying glow of having an Ascension Day service.

Congregations can sometimes be little more than consumers of theological services.

Well then the congregation can just fuck off. I've got no time for that shit, and if they don't really want to do it then that's on them.

But the dynamic is just not the same when it comes to a service of Holy Communion. That is the one and only thing a church can do where the minister does not have the option of saying "if you wanted it that badly you'd do it yourself". Oh, and it also happens to be the single most important and foundational act of worship in the entire religion.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909

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quote:
Originally posted by Rowen:
Eventually though, in the end, we had a lovely Christmas. But I am sure some parish councillors still believe the old orgy/party perspective.
Sometimes you can't win.

They're just jealous.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]

No, but saying Mass is the only thing they do that cannot be done by anyone else.

If the rest of the congregation wants a youth group, foodbank or closer relationship with the parish next door but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they can do it anyway. If the rest of the congregation wants an extra Communion service but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they're shit out of luck.

What actually happens in many places is that they want a youth group, foodbank and closer relationship with the parish next door - or say they do - but 'want' it in a kind of intellectual, I can have a warm satisfied glow if we have these things kind of way. Which involves not lifting a bloody finger to generate these things but having a fit of pique if the Minister withdraws from supplying them in order to provide the other warm, satisfying glow of having an Ascension Day service.

Congregations can sometimes be little more than consumers of theological services.

They can sometimes want things in the same way a child wants a hamster - they're less enthusiastic about cleaning its cage, changing its bedding and taking it to the vet.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Yeah, because all Ministers do is say Mass. [Roll Eyes]

No, but saying Mass is the only thing they do that cannot be done by anyone else.

If the rest of the congregation wants a youth group, foodbank or closer relationship with the parish next door but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they can do it anyway. If the rest of the congregation wants an extra Communion service but their Minister doesn't want to be involved, they're shit out of luck.

What actually happens in many places is that they want a youth group, foodbank and closer relationship with the parish next door - or say they do - but 'want' it in a kind of intellectual, I can have a warm satisfied glow if we have these things kind of way. Which involves not lifting a bloody finger to generate these things but having a fit of pique if the Minister withdraws from supplying them in order to provide the other warm, satisfying glow of having an Ascension Day service.

Congregations can sometimes be little more than consumers of theological services.

They can sometimes want things in the same way a child wants a hamster - they're less enthusiastic about cleaning its cage, changing its bedding and taking it to the vet.
Swop the hamster for gerbils and I know exactly what you mean. Feeding and petting is fine, but cleaning the cage and hoovering up the sawdust they flick ...!

It’s actually a bit more complicated … Each congregation is going to have its own set of expectations – spoken and unspoken – about what the Minister does. And most of them only start at, “Says Mass”.

Congregations will also expect pastoral visits, keeping an eye on the church fabric, community work, inter-church relations etc. In a larger church, there may be people to help with that. In a smaller church, the Minister does that. All that needs to be fitted around planning the service, any wider responsiblities you have in the demonination and family life.

Each congregation works differently. Some congregations will just run stuff by the Minister and then get on with making it happen. Others will want things, but may need a Ministerial shove to get on with it. Once they’re getting on with it, the Minister can take a step back. Others will expect the Minister to do everything, and if the Minister doesn’t, then it doesn’t happen.

There is a fairly compelling argument that if congregations want the warm and fuzzy glow from having things, but aren’t prepared to do any of the work – or even turn up if they’re arranged - they deserve a hearty “fuck you”. But no Minister with any sense is actually going to come out and say that.

But it’s the old double standard. Congregations want church resources used wisely – until it means something they value stops. It’s fine for congregations to be too busy during the week to do anything, but the Minister should always be available and there should always be something going on. But if a one off service is only attended by 10 people, 3 of whom are only there because they’re needed and takes a few hours to plan, then should it take place?

This dialogue is going to get more pointed as Ministry changes. Olaf wants Ministers to embrace part time and post retirement working, justify how they spend their time etc. All very sensible – but that means congregation’s expectations also need to change. In some cases, these changes mean Ministers will be doing less. If your Minister is part time and only works two days a week at church, plus Sunday then you’re not going to get a special, one off service for blah if it falls on a day that the Minister doesn’t work. Even if it means that it can’t happen because s/he’s not there. Part time means exactly that and there won’t always be someone else available to cover.

Tubbs

[ 05. June 2014, 10:57: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I am unsure if there are many good excuses for omitting observance of the Ascension.

And yet a great many people, on multiple threads now across multiple boards, have pointed out that their own personal history involves vast swathes of the church that haven't observed the Ascension on a Thursday, only on the following Sunday.

This doesn't appeared to have been a schism-worthy failing, until now.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I am unsure if there are many good excuses for omitting observance of the Ascension.

And yet a great many people, on multiple threads now across multiple boards, have pointed out that their own personal history involves vast swathes of the church that haven't observed the Ascension on a Thursday, only on the following Sunday.

This doesn't appeared to have been a schism-worthy failing, until now.

GCabot does appear to base his statement on what goes on in his own high-church parish, which follows tradition and liturgy.

There are many churches that do not celebrate Ascension Day on a particular Thursday OR Sunday, but they probably celebrate the Ascension every week, if not more often.

[ 05. June 2014, 11:21: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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