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Source: (consider it) Thread: One True Church? Don't make me laugh.
Fr Weber
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By the yardstick of Mt 7:16 (which refers to individuals, not groups of people or institutions), all you can say is that the people who did this were ravening wolves. I still don't see where it gives you any leeway to paint the entire RCC with the black brush, sorry.

This would be different if it could be shown that the Roman Church taught that allowing poor children to starve was laudable. But it doesn't. All this shows is that some people really suck at being Christians. Alert the fucking media.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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It doesn't paint the entire RCC as evil. My point is that I'd expect the "one true church" to be a lot better than this. I'd expect it to be a bit more fucking obvious to its nuns that this sort of thing isn't acceptable. But to the contrary; if RuthW's evidence is aught to go by, it seems to me that its teachings reinforced the prejudices that can lead to this sort of thing. How else did the Magdalene slave labour camps, I mean laundries, ever get set up in the first place, except through utterly despising those they were for.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

This would be different if it could be shown that the Roman Church taught that allowing poor children to starve was laudable.

The Roman Church taught that having children out of wedlock was a sin. This is the root cause of their treatment of the women and the children.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

This would be different if it could be shown that the Roman Church taught that allowing poor children to starve was laudable.

The Roman Church taught that having children out of wedlock was a sin. This is the root cause of their treatment of the women and the children.
It still teaches that, as do many other churches. The teaching does not ineluctably lead to maltreatment of unwed mothers or their children.

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The teaching does not ineluctably lead to maltreatment of unwed mothers or their children.

It clearly did.

Whether it still does, I'm not sure. How many unmarried Mums and their children attend your Church?

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Fr Weber
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Besides which, to be precise, the sin is not having the child, but the fornication which led to the child's conception.

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Curiosity killed ...

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And what happens to the fornicating men who helped the women become pregnant?

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The teaching does not ineluctably lead to maltreatment of unwed mothers or their children.

It clearly did.
That's not at all clear. How about the millions of other Catholics who haven't starved children born to unwed mothers?

quote:
Whether it still does, I'm not sure. How many unmarried Mums and their children attend your Church?

At the moment, I don't think I have any parents who had kids out of wedlock. If I discovered I had, nothing would change, and anyone who treated them differently because of that would get an ass-kicking.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But what is the mistaken theology? I suppose that unmarried women are sinful? I suppose it went beyond that to a view that they should be punished, and then that their children should be punished. I don't know how that connects with any kind of theology, but maybe somebody can illuminate that.

The mistaken theology is that women who have sex outside of marriage are then beyond the help or support of the church, and, by implication, God.

It is this theological position that meant it was acceptable to refuse baptism or sacred burial to these women and their children.

Ingob - The response in your link is expressing sorry, but not admitting that what was done was wrong. There is something of trying to distance from it, while accepting that they need to deal with it now.

It all sounds like he is saying "we will find out if there is anyone responsible who we need to consider first". With the history re covering up abuse, this is not good enough.

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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I could be wrong, IngoB, but I don't think I've ever posted on the subject of abortion on SoF in all the time you've been here, so you don't know what my position is, nor whether it matches up to your caricature of it. Since addressing your caricature would involve discussions of a deceased equine nature, as well you know, it's probably going to have to be left on one side. Rest assured it's nothing like you appear to think. But feel free to make presumptions.

You wrote polemics, and I mirrored it right back at you, in order to show you that your were writing polemics. You don't really get to complain about that, it is tit for tat. But FWIW, if we consider the "you" in these statements to be in the plural, then what you individually believe is not so important. Rather we were then both caricaturing positions of large groups of people. But if the "you" in these statements was to address us personally, then I'm elated to hear that you give a fuck about both the abuse/neglect in the RCC and about abortion. However, what then gave you the right to claim that I do not? Can you point to anything that I have written that would show that I do not? I don't think so.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It doesn't paint the entire RCC as evil. My point is that I'd expect the "one true church" to be a lot better than this. I'd expect it to be a bit more fucking obvious to its nuns that this sort of thing isn't acceptable.

That's pretty much the rant of St Peter in Acts 5 against Ananias and Sapphira. Or of St Paul against St Peter in Galatians 2. And if you were either of these gentleman back then, you'd be excused for thinking that you were dealing with a rare exception to the rule of how this whole Church thing would work out. Two millennia of Church later, that is just hilariously naive...

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But to the contrary; if RuthW's evidence is aught to go by, it seems to me that its teachings reinforced the prejudices that can lead to this sort of thing. How else did the Magdalene slave labour camps, I mean laundries, ever get set up in the first place, except through utterly despising those they were for.

You could of course spend a couple of minutes to find out about the original motivations behind these institutions. But it might lead to a more informed and balanced perspective, and less ranting.

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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Ingob - The response in your link is expressing sorry, but not admitting that what was done was wrong. There is something of trying to distance from it, while accepting that they need to deal with it now.

Here is the full statement the BBC was quoting from. I think it is pretty clear that he thinks that something went gravely wrong.

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It all sounds like he is saying "we will find out if there is anyone responsible who we need to consider first". With the history re covering up abuse, this is not good enough.

What he in fact is saying is that while he is the local archbishop, he simply does not have any access to records of this institution and that his archdiocese was not responsible for running it. He points to where he believes these records can be found, names who was responsible for running it, welcomes the public enquiry and promises to help in any way he can. What else exactly do you want of the man? That he sends in a SWAT team of albino monks to to torture the truth out of the Bon Secours Sisters?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Church collusion with patriarchy makes for one very unholy mess.

I'm not sure about in collusion with; the church has been one of the pillars of patriarchy, hasn't it?
Indeed. Every church.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The fact that Roman Catholics did something contrary to the doctrine of their church does not invalidate those doctrines. To argue otherwise is erroneous. Your emotional reaction to this horrible news is leading you straight into a logical fallacy.

Except for that thing about good trees and good fruit, and bad trees and bad fruit, which if I recall correctly comes from a quite reliable source.
Was he referring to churches in that pronouncement, or individuals? If the latter, can what he said reasonably be transferred from the one to the other, particularly when the church cannot realistically control the behavior of all the bad trees it might contain? The same reliable source also foretold weeds and tares growing together until the judgment, and forbade trying to dig up the tares.

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Lyda*Rose

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IngoB:
quote:
What else exactly do you want of the man? That he sends in a SWAT team of albino monks to to torture the truth out of the Bon Secours Sisters?
In my revenge fantasies. [Devil]

But I think you are right, I think it is clear that the Archbishop realizes the horror and tragedy of the situation and sounds ready to have his diocese to its part in revealing the full extent of the truth. If he indeed puts up no walls beyond that of the confessional, it will be to the church's credit.

Now if the current Bon Secour Sisters actually do their part to the fullest extent, I'll consider it a miracle. Their predecessors sound like ghastly, evil witches. They gave celibacy a bad name. [Mad]

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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

This would be different if it could be shown that the Roman Church taught that allowing poor children to starve was laudable.

The Roman Church taught that having children out of wedlock was a sin. This is the root cause of their treatment of the women and the children.
Children who were born to married parents suffered equally if they came into the care of church-run orphanages, etc. The Ryan report documents many abuses. There was an eleven-year-old girl whose mother had died. The father did not feel capable of raising a motherless girl, so he sent her to a nearby convent. Unfortunately, this was one of the Magdalen laundries.

The Ryan committee heard testimony from many witnesses who had been raised in RC institutions. Some reported sexual abuse; many reported being seriously overworked, and not being sent to school. Almost all reported being seriously underfed. The nuns had much better food than the children. The leftovers from the nuns' tables were put into buckets for the pigs. Any child who was caught taking food from the pig bucket was severely punished.

Moo

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Pre-cambrian
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
But I think you are right, I think it is clear that the Archbishop realizes the horror and tragedy of the situation and sounds ready to have his diocese to its part in revealing the full extent of the truth. If he indeed puts up no walls beyond that of the confessional, it will be to the church's credit.

If the church puts up no walls beyond the confessional it is not to its credit. It is only because of the church's long record of obstruction in issues like this that its behaving with basic decency can be seen as creditable.

What strikes me about the whole situation is that all the talk is of memorials or inquiries. That's all very nice, but surely the most important thing when faced with a mass burial of nearly 800 dead children at a rate of one a fortnight is to set up a crime scene.

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L'organist
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I think the argument 'something went wrong' could reasonably be applied if the cess-tank disposals were few over a brief period.

However, it would seem that these disposals took place over a period of 35+ years so it wasn't 'something that went wrong' it was routine.

As for the 'good' nuns refusing baptism to these infants, words fail me.

I have Irish relatives and the effect that the scandals to do with the Magdalenes, Christian Brothers' schools, sexual abuse by priests, has had on them, particularly the older generation, cannot be over-stated. Among the younger generation there is deep cynicism towards all national institutions, and the RCC in particular.

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Adeodatus
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I completely agree that this is a horrifying, nightmarish thing that has happened. But before we get too self-righteous with regard to Catholicism in Ireland, we might remember that burial of the dead in unmarked mass graves was common practice in asylums and workhouses in England until well into the 20th century.

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The Rhythm Methodist
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Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
The Ryan committee heard testimony from many witnesses who had been raised in RC institutions. Some reported sexual abuse; many reported being seriously overworked, and not being sent to school. Almost all reported being seriously underfed. The nuns had much better food than the children. The leftovers from the nuns' tables were put into buckets for the pigs. Any child who was caught taking food from the pig bucket was severely punished.
Well, RC institutions may indeed have been responsible for sexually abused, overworked, malnourished and brutalised children - but its nice to know that some survived. I'm sure we can all take comfort from assertions such as Fr Weber's, that (in essence) it is not RC company policy to starve helpless babies and toddlers to death. And who can deny he is right when he says there are millions of Catholics who don't engage in such practices? So very reassuring!

IngoB correctly informs us that the RC has an hierarchical structure. That generally implies lines of responsibility and accountability - something they have yet again failed to demonstrate. The nuns - despite being part of that hierarchical system - did not adhere to the 'company policy', and were not held to account. Over many years, children died in pitiful misery and neglect...while the church did nothing to save them.

I can't imagine the stench that assailed those nuns, every time they lifted the lid of their cesspit - full of the rotting corpses of children - to throw in another helpless victim. But for me, what really stinks is an organization - which actually claims to represent Christ - presiding over such misery and suffering. Frankly, I don't give a damn that the RCC don't instruct their nuns to be brutal and barbaric: the fact that cruelty doesn't appear in Catholic standing orders does nothing to lessen the responsibility of the church - whatever some might think. Ultimately, the nuns' institution (and so many similar ones) have acted on behalf of and have represented the RCC. The extent of the church's negligence is truly astonishing, even by the appalling standards to which we have, sadly, become accustomed.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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The Church of Ireland welcomes you.
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I completely agree that this is a horrifying, nightmarish thing that has happened. But before we get too self-righteous with regard to Catholicism in Ireland, we might remember that burial of the dead in unmarked mass graves was common practice in asylums and workhouses in England until well into the 20th century.

It still is in some areas: there have been a few recent scandals over hospitals not telling the truth. One, I think Addenbrookes in Cambridge, was found to be cremating the bodies of miscarriaged children to heat the hospital when they told the parents that the children had been buried.

The big question is why was no one asking questions about an average of 2 children dying in one institution, each and every week? It does appear like there's a bigger cover up here or that the registration process is flawed or that the Registrars were also scared of the nuns.

Other questions spring to mind.

Why did no one at that level ask "Where are you burying these children?"

Who actually put the bodies into the cistern/sewer?

I'm seeing some dissembling already on the net which seems to explain mass graves by reburials of victims of the potato famine. OK - but where are the records?

I know it's easy to point the finger and other denominations had their baby homes and scandals. But none (e.g. in England) have perpetrated the systemic abuse of vulnerable people that the RCC oversaw in Ireland. It's almost as if it were done by deliberate plan or design - it could not have happened surely without meticulous planning to do it, then cover it up before, during and after.

It's not ok to say we are judging yesterday by the standards of today. Those standards applied then - they're called basic care, love and humanity. God weeps over this thing that calls itself a church yet doesn't listen to the cry of a child: it's clearly a case now of the lampstand being removed. Thanks for nothing RCC you're really messing it all up for the ret of us now - how on earth are we supposed to say, look that isn't the church but this (looking at my own place), is?

I am so angry that the insane half of me wants to go to the local Priest who has over 5000 people through his church, to ask him how he can stay in such an god less institution.

[ 06. June 2014, 07:15: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...That's pretty much the rant of St Peter in Acts 5 against Ananias and Sapphira. Or of St Paul against St Peter in Galatians 2...

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You could of course spend a couple of minutes to find out about the original motivations behind these institutions. But it might lead to a more informed and balanced perspective, and less ranting.

If St Peter and St Paul ranted on occasion then I think it's a reasonable response to this scandal. Don't you?

I wouldn't normally pick up on language in this pedantic way, sorry IngoB, but I think it's fair enough with someone like you who uses words so precisely and skilfully.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Nothing I've heard today on R4 about the attitude of the church and Irish state towards unmarried mothers, their concept of "double original sin" on the children of these mothers, the forced adoptions that were routine has done anything to lessen my belief in the connection between Catholic teaching and the maltreatment of children in the "care" of these institutions. When you treat people as a problem, this happens.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I think most institutions can become corrupt and autocratic, if they are not held in check. Unfortunately, after independence in Ireland, the Catholic Church was basically told to deal with education and some other welfare issues, and the Irish state tended to opt out of any checks on what was going on.

The moral of the story for me is that all institutions must be held accountable, must be frequently inspected for signs of maltreatment of people, and so on. Whether this happens is another matter.

But you have to assume that schools, hospitals, prisons, churches, and so on, can easily become corrupt and damaging to people. But alas, vigilance is often ignored.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What he in fact is saying is that while he is the local archbishop, he simply does not have any access to records of this institution and that his archdiocese was not responsible for running it. He points to where he believes these records can be found, names who was responsible for running it, welcomes the public enquiry and promises to help in any way he can. What else exactly do you want of the man? That he sends in a SWAT team of albino monks to to torture the truth out of the Bon Secours Sisters?

I do understand this, but his statement sounds like a political expression of regret. I have no doubt that he feels that mistakes have been made, and that this is a horrific find.

What I want is a sense of shame, because this reflects on HIS church and HIS faith. As well as mine, and I feel ashamed.

So no, I am not after a SWAT team. I am after the senior representative of the faith that drove these appalling events committing to use the power and influence that he has to get to the truth. To accept that there may have been failings in HIS organisation that allowed this to happen.

Maybe I am so used to the weasel expressions of regret from the Westminster politicians, who will do whatever it takes as long as it doesn't impact themselves, that when I see something like this, I assume the worst.

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I do understand this, but his statement sounds like a political expression of regret.

I have to be frank and say I didn't get that from reading the statement. I thought it sounded genuine and appropriate.

But I guess we all read between the lines based on our own subjective views.

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Penny S
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I didn't detect political slithering, either. It seemed a good statement to me.

And I've been spending the day fantasising about millstones and slurry pits.

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quetzalcoatl
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Aren't cases like this repeated across Europe? I thought that the foundling hospital, or orphans' home, became quite common, and were often filled, not just by orphans, but by unwanted children, illegitimate children, and so on.

Their mortality rate was high, partly because they were separated from their mothers, also infectious diseases, poor diet, cold, and so on.

There are estimates that millions of children died in these institutions, (Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, 'Mother Nature').

I'm not saying this excuses the Irish example, but it is a widespread phenomenon.

quote:
I still recall the crisp autumn day in the old cathedral city of Durham, England, when at a conference on abandoned children, the full extent of a phenomenon I had been aware of for years sank in. The talks were routine scientific fare. Overhead projectors flashed graphs and charts onto a screen. The black lines sprawling across the grid summarized data from European foundling homes, tracking changes in infant mortality rates over time. As the morning wore on, the phenomenon of child abandonment was described, country by country, epoch by epoch, for England, Sweden, Italy, even Portugal’s colony in the Azores. Gradually it dawned on me that this phenomenon affected not tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of infants, as I had long assumed, but millions of babies. I grew increasingly numb. Hrdy, p. 302.


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Penny S
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I picked up this link from another site. A good man.
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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nothing I've heard today on R4 about the attitude of the church and Irish state towards unmarried mothers, their concept of "double original sin" on the children of these mothers, the forced adoptions that were routine has done anything to lessen my belief in the connection between Catholic teaching and the maltreatment of children in the "care" of these institutions. When you treat people as a problem, this happens.

The treatment of children at this particular hostel seems inexcusable, and I have no wish to mitigate that fact.

But the article says:

quote:
According to Corless, death rates for children in the Tuam mother and baby home, and in similar institutions, were four to five times that of the general population.
I am wary that it would be the same in similar institutions. Some evidence on Mother and Baby homes suggest otherwise. And the researcher based alot of her evidence on direct conversations.

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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The Church of Ireland welcomes you.

This sort of sectarian opportunism is what is most unsettling about this thread.

"The Church of Ireland welcomes you"

"The Church of Ireland welcomes you"

"The Church of Ireland welcomes you"

"The Church of Ireland welcomes you"

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nothing I've heard today on R4 about the attitude of the church and Irish state towards unmarried mothers, their concept of "double original sin" on the children of these mothers, the forced adoptions that were routine has done anything to lessen my belief in the connection between Catholic teaching and the maltreatment of children in the "care" of these institutions. When you treat people as a problem, this happens.

Or Protestant teaching, for that matter, as the record shows. It just so happens the Catholic Church was the biggest player, so its defects are most obvious.

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And I've been spending the day fantasising about millstones and slurry pits.

And this is the unsettling image that rises above all in this story. Except it is inaccurate. I too reacted in horror at the thought of children being disposed of as sewage. But that is clearly not the case. It was the "disused septic tank" that was re-used as a grave. In one article I read this was described as "a convenient hole", a description designed to raise the temperature, but nevertheless true. Yet the men who first unearthed remains there as boys describe the bodies they found as "neatly stacked".

The tragedy of this is the tragedy of the pauper's grave. There are many of these, including in England, and still functioning today.

In London

Please excuse the source.

Similarly

There is a massive tragedy here about the poor and the marginalised. And the Church - all Churches - which should have been at the forefront of caring and alleviating their suffering turned the moral tables on their heads and instead joined in the punishment. Sickening.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The mistaken theology is that women who have sex outside of marriage are then beyond the help or support of the church, and, by implication, God.

It is this theological position that meant it was acceptable to refuse baptism or sacred burial to these women and their children.


Moo has a good point about the awful treatment of children in all sorts of institutions. I remember that two of Charlotte Bronte's sisters died from the effects of the school for daughters of Church of England clergy that they attended. I live near Columbus Ohio where, in 2014, we have an infant mortality rate that rivals third world countries.

But it's what SC said that I can't get past. These children not only died, many died without Baptism. Unwed mothers were turned away from the help of the church and the gift of Holy Communion. How dare they?

What convoluted reading of the scriptures saw Jesus extending love to the woman at the well -- who after five husbands must surely have borne several out of wedlock children -- and then thought they could turn away women and children who Jesus clearly loved from his own grace?

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Triple Tiara

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I am not convinced about the denial of baptism. Many survivors of these awful institutions recount stories of later appalling treatment when they ask for their baptism certificates. Many recount finding their birth parents through information on baptismal certificates.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I am not convinced about the denial of baptism. Many survivors of these awful institutions recount stories of later appalling treatment when they ask for their baptism certificates. Many recount finding their birth parents through information on baptismal certificates.

You mention what happpens when survivors ask for information. Those in the mass graves aren't in such a position.

That said, I doubt if there was a uniform policy or enforcement of whatever policy should have been uniform. Many homes were understaffed and I doubt that those running them were ideal for the job.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
There is a massive tragedy here about the poor and the marginalised. And the Church - all Churches - which should have been at the forefront of caring and alleviating their suffering turned the moral tables on their heads and instead joined in the punishment. Sickening.

Spot on, TT. The thing is, this is how the privileged treat the marginalised.

On Radio 4's 'Today' this morning there was someone who seemed to suggest there was some initial confusion over whether this 'grave' might be linked with a nearby 'famine grave'. The reference, of course, is to the Irish Famine of the late 1840s, in which something like a million people died, while their (Protestant) British landlords dined in luxury on their Irish estates. There are stories a-plenty of starving people begging for food and literally being turned away at the landlord's door.

ExclamationMark is right, too, in that there are still some very questionable practices around the disposal of remains of perinatal deaths. I came into NHS chaplaincy around the time of the Alder Hey scandal, in which it was found that hospital laboratories all over the country had been retaining organs and tissue - sometimes on open display - without families' consent or knowledge.

The idea of the proper and sensitive care of the dead is a very recent sensibility in the UK. And we're still very much in the phase that, while acknowledging that in death all are equal, some are clearly more equal than others.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Adeodatus wrote:

On Radio 4's 'Today' this morning there was someone who seemed to suggest there was some initial confusion over whether this 'grave' might be linked with a nearby 'famine grave'. The reference, of course, is to the Irish Famine of the late 1840s, in which something like a million people died, while their (Protestant) British landlords dined in luxury on their Irish estates. There are stories a-plenty of starving people begging for food and literally being turned away at the landlord's door.

And there were large exports of food from Ireland, during the Famine, as obviously, you couldn't let a little famine stand in the way of doing good business.

In a sense, the Galway bodies symbolize a whole holocaust of the poor, not just in Ireland, but throughout Europe, I suspect. It's also striking how children were seen as disposable, and treated very badly in foundling homes and so on. See Dickens.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Triple Tiara

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You mention what happpens when survivors ask for information. Those in the mass graves aren't in such a position.

I am trying to get my head around why you wrote that, and I'm afraid I am lost.

You wrote it in response to my saying I do not believe the assertion that children born out of wedlock were denied baptism. Whether they survived or died does not affect that.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I am not convinced about the denial of baptism. Many survivors of these awful institutions recount stories of later appalling treatment when they ask for their baptism certificates. Many recount finding their birth parents through information on baptismal certificates.

You mention what happpens when survivors ask for information. Those in the mass graves aren't in such a position.


[my italics]

TT, I wondered if it might not have been a coincidence that those who survived were baptised while those who did not survive were not baptised.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I do understand this, but his statement sounds like a political expression of regret.

I have to be frank and say I didn't get that from reading the statement. I thought it sounded genuine and appropriate.

But I guess we all read between the lines based on our own subjective views.

Then I am cynical in my old age, and will wait to see what actually happens.

Maybe I have been subjected to too much of that sniveling piece of festering shit Camerons "apologies" and carefully worded statements.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The Church of Ireland welcomes you.

This sort of sectarian opportunism is what is most unsettling about this thread.
Protestant churches are every bit as likely to embrace the hateful practices of their particular cultures as Catholic parishes are, and that's been acknowledged on this thread -- I acknowledge it, at least, by including an example of such a thing from my own parish. The Catholic Church isn't worse than any other -- but it isn't better, either, which is why I'm on board with the title of this thread.
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anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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What a depressing thread. Why do we use this type of tragedy to point the finger at "you Catholics!"

There seems a really sinister sense of glee in some of the posts. And as if dreadful atrocities had not been being committed throughout history by humans who belong to whatever: Catholicism, Anglicanism, Socialism.

Somewhere buried, there is a serious issue worth debating, which is whether evil things can be done within the church instituted by Jesus. And if so, how evil.

The thesis - implied - of the OP is that notable evil existing within an organisation invalidates any claim to be a valid expression of the church of Christ. I don't, personally, buy that.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Triple Tiara, a disused septic tank is still a septic tank. What sort of treatment would render it a suitable grave for anyone?

Neanderthal graves have been found into which people have been placed with care and flowers.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
There seems a really sinister sense of glee in some of the posts.

I'm curious as to which ones you mean.

quote:
And as if dreadful atrocities had not been being committed throughout history by humans who belong to whatever: Catholicism, Anglicanism, Socialism.
Who said this? Who even implied it?

quote:
Somewhere buried, there is a serious issue worth debating, which is whether evil things can be done within the church instituted by Jesus. And if so, how evil.
So start a thread in Purgatory.

quote:
The thesis - implied - of the OP is that notable evil existing within an organisation invalidates any claim to be a valid expression of the church of Christ. I don't, personally, buy that.
You got that out of "by their fruits ye shall know them"? Cause to me it looks like you pulled it out of your ass.

[codefix. —A]

[ 06. June 2014, 23:21: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
The thesis - implied - of the OP is that notable evil existing within an organisation invalidates any claim to be a valid expression of the church of Christ.

No, it's that it invalidates their claim to be THE ONLY valid expression of the Church of Christ. If they're going to make that claim then they'd damn well better be able to back it up, and they can't.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Triple Tiara, a disused septic tank is still a septic tank. What sort of treatment would render it a suitable grave for anyone?

Neanderthal graves have been found into which people have been placed with care and flowers.

And what evidence do you have that this was not done in this instance? The eye-witness accounts of those who unearthed the grave said the remains were neatly stacked. Why is it so shocking that what was no longer in use for its original purpose was put to use for the decent interment of human remains? I repeat - these children were not thrown into a cesspit: their bodies were buried in a hole in the ground where once a septic tank had been.

I applaud the woman who started the campaign to have the place marked as a grave, so that those buried there would not simply be unnamed. That's what started this story. The poor deserve respect in death. Pauper's graves (where many people are buried together) are a sad feature because people are not remembered in them as individuals.

Two things should be borne in mind about Catholic sensibilities, especially those of that time:
1. the absolute necessity of baptism and the lengths to which people would go to ensure the baptism of an infant in mortal danger. Irish nurses used to be taught how to baptise as part of their training.
2. Burying the dead is one of the "Corporal works of mercy". It was in effect a mortal sin to deprive someone of a decent burial. It has to be done reverently. There has been nothing yet to suggest these children were not at least reverently buried. In a pauper's grave, yes. But that does not mean simply tossed into a cesspit.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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Come off it Ruth, you are being disingenuous.

And Marvin steps right up to the mark to prove the point. It's not the events which are at issue, it's that they "invalidate" the Catholic Church.

[ 06. June 2014, 20:30: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Come off it Ruth, you are being disingenuous.

And Marvin steps right up to the mark to prove the point. It's not the events which are at issue, it's that they "invalidate" the Catholic Church.

C'mon, TT, read what Marvin actually wrote. We think this is yet more evidence that the RCC is not the One True Church. If it were, y'all would collectively be better than the rest of us, but things like this show that you aren't. No one says this invalidates the Catholic Church.

And no, I'm not being at all disingenuous. Glee? Seriously? When the Catholic Church gets a bunch of bad publicity, where I live it tends to be bad for the public perception of all believers. I for one am not gleeful.

[ 06. June 2014, 20:48: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
It's not the events which are at issue, it's that they "invalidate" the Catholic Church.

For many of us who do not believe the claims the Catholic church makes for itself, this is also disingenuous.

It does not invalidate the Catholic Church as a part of the body of Christ, though it may well be that individual members of that Church are vile.

For those of us who do not consider the Catholic Church's claim to be the ONE true church to be valid in the first place, this sort of story (or, more personally for me, the circle-the-wagons response that all too often accompanies this sort of story) is more likely to be considered a validation of our own position.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
. A health board report from 1944 on the Tuam home describes emaciated, potbellied children, mentally unwell mothers and appalling overcrowding.
I think, had my life been abbreviated by neglect and starvation, that my corpse had been 'neatly stacked' would not count for a lot.

This was treatment legitimised by the church and the society around it, because the one is the expression of the other.

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anteater

Ship's pest-controller
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Marvin:
quote:
No, it's that it invalidates their claim to be THE ONLY valid expression of the Church of Christ. If they're going to make that claim then they'd damn well better be able to back it up, and they can't.
OK, maybe I hadn't realised they made such exclusive claims. I was raised as a JW and they certainly did. I find it hard to believe that the RCC, one of whose loyal members leads Churches Together in our area, has such a down on other christians, and frankly I doubt it.

However, . . surely the thesis is that the presence of evil invalidates a claim made for a religious organisation. It is not clear to me why this would not also extend to the claim that a church is A valid expression of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Is the claim that these deeds could never occur in a Church which sees itself as THE best expression of Christ's Church but not a problem for a Church which sees itself as one of the valid expressions of it.

Would the deed have to be correspondingly worse to invalidate the less ambitious claim? That's what I don't see.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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It was a hole with a stone slab closing it. When the lads who found it first saw it, they could see numbers of skeletons. Unlike many stories involving skeletons, this appears to be true. They are reported as neatly stacked, which is odd, since they would have had to remain neatly stacked, in the absence of coffins and with the loss of shrouds (assumed) and flesh, which seems unlikely. We don't know the dimensions of the hollow space, but presumably the bodies were lowered in on top of the previous burials. That would lead to an appearance of neat stacking at the top with the most recent burials having the least disturbance. There wouldn't be any other way of doing it.

I still feel that its previous use somewhat tarnishes the choice for respectful burial. Even if it were scrubbed out with Jeyes fluid first. And holy water. And blessed.

They have put someone's child, someone's grandchild, created in the image of God, in the place that had been used for disposing of excreta. Don't you think someone should have thought a little first?

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