Source: (consider it)
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Thread: One True Church? Don't make me laugh.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by cheesy marzipan: quote: It is not just about what the nuns, priests, church hierarchy did or didn't do. It is about what the rest of society did or didn't do, the questions nobody asked, the complaints that were ignored.
This is a vital point often overlooked; partly because Irish society does not want to look at it. In some cases women were sent to these places because they had become pregnant and could no longer work and were deemed to be nothing more than another mouth to feed with no return in work. Sometimes they were sent because they had learning difficulties, disorders that were not understood or were in some way disabled. Some were sent to these institutions as a form of punishment for bringing shame on a family or because they were thought to be undisciplined or 'naughty children'. Society knew only too well what went on in these places. There are people alive today who will say that when they were bad as children they would be threatened with 'You'll be sent to the institution'. People in society knew what was going on and it was compounded by a society that was facing horrific poverty and a deeply uncertain future, where someone who didn't fit in or couldn't put a hand to the plough was deemed an unnecessary burden.
The statistics of death in these places is horrific. Malnutrition, lack of medical care, a serious lack of access to medications, improper conditions, lack of proper sanitation and little by way of good sources of heat all contributed to a high death toll. Very often these institutions were overcrowded so infection was a serious problem. I am in no way trying to excuse it, but it does go some of the way to explain it. neglect however, is still neglect.
Not all in Irish society turned a blind eye. There are many places where something quite different was taking place, where single mothers found a home and a place of support. Some orders, groups and homes from all denominations existed to house single mothers, pay for their education and look after their children with proper nutrition and medical care; especially those who had suffered rejection and expulsion from their own families. Understandably the vast majority of these women never stayed in Ireland; leaving the very second they had enough money to get out. These stories have never really been told in Ireland and I am beginning to wonder if they ever will be. The sad fact is that nobody wants the good story and the media only wants the scandal.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
fletcher, thank you for a magnificent post.
Part of what has happened is a shift in the scapegoating - where the women were once the bearer of all the ills, now it is the Catholic Church. It is a very serious issue for the Irish people. I am speaking as one who has a significant Irish contingent in the parish.
As an example, I once quoted from Angela's Ashes - I was not commenting on Ireland, I was referring to an incident in the book to do with the Sacred Heart. There was an outcry afterwards. The issue? "How could you quote from that book which shows up Ireland in such a bad way?" I am not an Englishman, so I could not be blamed for having an English anti-Irish sentiment, but I could be blamed for colluding in "exposing" dark truths.
There is a great defensiveness the Irish story. And that is understandable because of history. But I do wonder sometimes, after all that has been revealed, how some folk still express yearning for the "strict old days". Others, meanwhile, shift the issue from being an Irish one to being a Catholic one. It helps with not facing the realities of the society which made this happen. For sure the Churches were intricately tied up in that - but one cannot simply separate it all out and shift all the blame onto the Catholic Church. It's useful because the Catholic Church in Ireland is now the whipping boy, but it means the truth is then conveniently kept shrouded.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Triple Tiara,
(This is meant in a more Purgatorial than Hellish tone, but since we're here...)
Given that you:
a) presumably do believe that the Catholic Church is the 'One True' one; and
b) are being entirely honest and fair about the failings of people in that institution;
is there any form of wickedness that could be committed by the institution, its hierarchy or its laity that could shake your confidence that your Church has this special 'One True' status? Is the rightness of the RCC purely a matter of correct official doctrine, sacramental validity and historical continuity with the NT believers, or could it ever be called into question by officially sanctioned evil?
-------------------- "Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
It's the question of Judas: why did Jesus call one who was to betray him? Does the fact that Judas betrayed Jesus invalidate the entire College of Apostles?
There has been wickedness in the hierarchical structure of the Church since its birth. There has been wickedness motivated by (an incorrect) adherence to the Church ever since. There have been outrageously wicked popes - such as the one in my avatar.
What convinces me, however, is that there always arises a cleansing moment. Sometimes the Church is forced into that cleansing kicking and screaming - the Reformation is an example of something that forced the Church to clean up its act. Soon After Alexander VI we had St Pius V, St Charles Borromeo, St Francis de Sales.
What would convince me that the Church was in fact defective? If wickedness became doctrine. But the fact is that wickedness is committed by people who profess good doctrine. Conversion is never complete. And what this does to me is remind me that I too need constantly to clean up my act, because I am never fully converted and far too much of me does not live up to the Gospel.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
But what if the wickedness is systemic?
The very systems of the Church encouraging silence about such matters, reverence of those who should never be revered and protection of those who commit terrible abuse?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Clericalism wherever it arises is a source - perhaps the principal source - of systemic evil in the Church, I would submit. I'd also expand the notion of clericalism to include all the religious "professionals", from Amish elders who control their communities, to various professed religious communities in the RCC who exercise proximate control over institutions such as schools and orphanages or adoption agencies. The lack of effective lay input into policy and leadership inevitably leads to abuse, as power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Hierarchs who behave like despots - and there have been examples aplenty in America - exemplify this in the RCC, whose organizational structure particularly tends toward despotism (using despotism as a neutral term in itself, e.g., United Methodist bishops in the US have far greater despotic powers than bishops of TEC). The mantra that the Church is not a democracy has a toxic subtext. Perhaps the Church cannot be a democracy and still be Church, but it needs must at least be an effective polyarchy in which laity, diaconal and presbyteral clergy, and the hierarchy all actively and fully participate in the formulation and implementation of policy, and do so with some measure of equality.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: I know exactly where your one-liner came from LsK. And that was what I found so crass - making capital out of what was once again seen as a Catholic issue. The truth is it is an Irish issue. Granted, the Catholic Church is intricately caught up in that, but so are other churches. To try and say "oh it's those evil Catholics - why not become a protestant?" is gross.
But people do become definitively alienated from their Church communities for a variety of reasons. Do you prefer they cease being practicing Christians, that they cease to receive the means of grace (which V2 recognized are possessed in at least some sense within "protestant" churches), that they drift along very likely never to return to the Catholic Church in any real sense (a lapsed Catholic being buried with Catholic rites hardly counts, as it's done to/for them, not by them)?
Yes, historically there has been a particular Irish societal problem contributing to the problems there, but other forms of exploitation by RC clergy and religious have occurred internationally and systemically. The set-up of other churches hasn't created the same conditions under which abuses thrive so easily, though whenever an institutional Church gains a particular hegemonic faculty approved by the State - such as Anglicans running boarding schools for Indian/First Nations children in Canada, it has bred systemic abuse.
Anyway, the watchwords of the Church must be Semper Reformanda, and circling the wagons just won't do.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Oh stop it. Did you bother to follow the links I provided?
The situation of those who were in CofI institutions seems to be even worse than those in Catholic ones. Is an appropriate response to those stories "The Catholic Church welcomes you"?
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: Oh stop it. Did you bother to follow the links I provided?
The situation of those who were in CofI institutions seems to be even worse than those in Catholic ones. Is an appropriate response to those stories "The Catholic Church welcomes you"?
While I don't find LsK's comments particularly savory, Roman Catholics on this board have argued "The Catholic Church welcomes you" in response to problems in Anglicanism many, many times. [ 08. June 2014, 13:59: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: But what if the wickedness is systemic?
The very systems of the Church encouraging silence about such matters, reverence of those who should never be revered and protection of those who commit terrible abuse?
Some writers suggest that the abandonment of children, their maltreatment, and their frequent deaths, was a Europe-wide phenomenon, often found in foundling hospitals, homes, and so on. How many children died? Millions?
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: But what if the wickedness is systemic?
The very systems of the Church encouraging silence about such matters, reverence of those who should never be revered and protection of those who commit terrible abuse?
Then those systems need to change. Beneath the shrill and the headline, if anyone actually wants to know the truth, then you will discover that the Catholic Church is now extremely robust when it comes to issues of child-protection. This impacts daily parish life in a way not done before. As an example: I publish the name of our safeguarding officer on the front page of every parish newsletter; children acting as altar servers need to be vested and out of the sacristy before I get there; CRB checks for everyone working with children's liturgy, or any child activity and so on. These were all implemented over a decade ago.
And no, this was not simply in response to reports in the media, as some like to suggest. Down the centuries the Church has implemented things which then become taken for granted, even mocked - such as confessional boxes so that there was a separation between priest and penitent because some priest in the past had taken advantage of a vulnerable penitent.
If you don't like hierarchy and you don't like clergy, that is your issue. It's not a Catholic issue. Catholics know their value. When there are bad priests and bad bishops, Catholics actually get angrier than those outside because these things tarnish that which we know to be good.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: Oh stop it. Did you bother to follow the links I provided?
The situation of those who were in CofI institutions seems to be even worse than those in Catholic ones. Is an appropriate response to those stories "The Catholic Church welcomes you"?
While I don't find LsK's comments particularly savory, Roman Catholics on this board have argued "The Catholic Church welcomes you" in response to problems in Anglicanism many, many times.
About theological issues, no doubt.
My contention is this is not just a Catholic "problem". Hence my links. Trying to make sectarian profit out of human suffering is indeed not "savoury" as you put it.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: [QUOTE] When there are bad priests and bad bishops, Catholics actually get angrier than those outside because these things tarnish that which we know to be good.
What evidence do you have for such a sweeping generalisation?
The other examples you provide are clear and correct. But, they weren't perpetrated by the church but by secular authorities. In Ireland, the church was the state for the care of these women and children. That was not the case anywhere else.
Please don't try to pass the buck on to other people either. Ok other churches and denominations are not whiter than white - but we have a specific case to debate here and the level and scale of abuse perpetrated by the RCC appears to have no rival, anywhere. It is systemic, inhuman and for years was covered up - even long after it had stopped. Why? Not simply to protect the guilty people actually to salve the conscience of a guilt ridden church.
Saying "Catholics get angrier ..." is rather like saying "we do it better than anyone else." Well, in this case, I accept it, you do - and you have a lot more reasons for doing so.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Poppycock, all of that.
I am not passing any buck here - I think these things need to be faced square on. Faced, admitted, corrected.
I have been addressing very specifically those on here who have been making sectarian capital out of this. "Come to us, we're better".
No, sadly, you were and are no better in these issues.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: [QUOTE] It's not a Catholic issue.
In this case it is: try to understand how those 5 words might seem to one of the mothers whose child was buried in that garden.
I suggest you say those words at each and every mass you take over the next week. Ask those attending what they feel and believe it to be. Instead of asking the denomination, ask the people in the church and who were directly affected. I don't somehow think that many will say that this is "Society's problem."
This is a catholic issue: it happened in a home run by an agency of the RCC. Continually trying to step away from it multiplies your culpability.
Burial and baptism may possibly been without the rites of the church (in some cases) but thankfully it was accompanied by the tears of Christ.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
This question isn't limited to the Catholic church in Ireland in the 1950s, it's a much broader question of which this news story is one bit - why is the church so often taking it's moral signals from society instead of from God?
If all Ireland despised out of wedlock Moms and their children, that does not explain why the Church would endorse that behavior instead of being a shining light - even in the face of social mockery - for God's values of welcoming and caring for the poor and the outcast.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Poppycock again.
For as long as we mark this a "Catholic" issue then we fail to address the deeper issues at stake.
There are specifically Catholic issues which indeed need to be addressed, have been addressed and are being addressed.
But conveniently shifting it all onto being simply a Catholic issue - that fails to address a massive part of the issue. That may suit you, but it does not serve the truth, nor making sure it never happens again.
(cross-posted) [ 08. June 2014, 14:54: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: Poppycock, all of that.
I've never claimed to be any better either on behalf of myself or nay denomination. There are enough problems in all churches but the sheer indifference and bluster never ceases to amaze me.
If the RCC were to say once and for all, we repent of it, we accept we did wrong, help us to move on and make redress and be better, that's a start.
Instead all we hear is well we weren't the only ones. Yep we know but just look at the systematic nature of the abuse at all levels and in all places.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Poppycock again.
Read the whole thread. I was addressing those who were making sectarian capital out of this.
There is sufficient written and linked to on this thread to address the Catholic Church's remorse about what has happened.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: Poppycock again.
For as long as we mark this a "Catholic" issue then we fail to address the deeper issues at stake.
There are specifically Catholic issues which indeed need to be addressed, have been addressed and are being addressed.
But conveniently shifting it all onto being simply a Catholic issue - that fails to address a massive part of the issue. That may suit you, but it does not serve the truth, nor making sure it never happens again.
It is not "all" being shifted onto the RCC. Specifics have. Tell us how it is being addressed and will be?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: When there are bad priests and bad bishops, Catholics actually get angrier than those outside because these things tarnish that which we know to be good.
What evidence do you have for such a sweeping generalisation?
The other examples you provide are clear and correct. But, they weren't perpetrated by the church but by secular authorities. In Ireland, the church was the state for the care of these women and children. That was not the case anywhere else.
Please don't try to pass the buck on to other people either. Ok other churches and denominations are not whiter than white - but we have a specific case to debate here and the level and scale of abuse perpetrated by the RCC appears to have no rival, anywhere. It is systemic, inhuman and for years was covered up - even long after it had stopped. Why? Not simply to protect the guilty people actually to salve the conscience of a guilt ridden church.
Saying "Catholics get angrier ..." is rather like saying "we do it better than anyone else." Well, in this case, I accept it, you do - and you have a lot more reasons for doing so.
It might be better to say that "Irish Catholics get angrier....". There are and have been Irish Catholics in my family: when cases like this come up some roll their eyes and say "Oh God, not again", other cry and pray while there are always some who walk out of the RCCs door and never enter any church again save for weddings and funerals.
The sectarianism of the last 40 years (or 400 years - take your pick) is no help, and has to be remembered when making generalisations. Never mind, this is only Hell, not the Shankill Road or Bogside in the mid-seventies.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: Poppycock again.
Read the whole thread. I was addressing those who were making sectarian capital out of this.
There is sufficient written and linked to on this thread to address the Catholic Church's remorse about what has happened.
Think for yourself - don't just follow the party line. What would you do if it was on your patch?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: There is sufficient written and linked to on this thread to address the Catholic Church's remorse about what has happened.
The spokesman in the article originally linked didn't seem to show any remorse.
-------------------- Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: Posted by cheesy marzipan: quote: It is not just about what the nuns, priests, church hierarchy did or didn't do. It is about what the rest of society did or didn't do, the questions nobody asked, the complaints that were ignored.
This is a vital point often overlooked; partly because Irish society does not want to look at it.
When the reports on historical child abuse by priests in Ireland were published, I was surprised to learn that, if a case was reported to the Garda, the chances of then doing anything about it was slim to nil. I was also surprised by how rarely this was mentioned in the press coverage.
-------------------- "Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: Posted by cheesy marzipan: quote: It is not just about what the nuns, priests, church hierarchy did or didn't do. It is about what the rest of society did or didn't do, the questions nobody asked, the complaints that were ignored.
This is a vital point often overlooked; partly because Irish society does not want to look at it.
When the reports on historical child abuse by priests in Ireland were published, I was surprised to learn that, if a case was reported to the Garda, the chances of then doing anything about it was slim to nil. I was also surprised by how rarely this was mentioned in the press coverage.
That was essentially the position in the UK for a very long time.
Even with much more public understanding, sexual abuse of a child who is not photographed or abducted is extremely difficult to prove - most cases don't get to court. Even if the children do end up on the at risk register. [ 08. June 2014, 19:00: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Going back to the homes - over here in the UK, some young women were put into mental asylums because of being seen as sexually out of order, then thoroughly institutionalised so they could not be released. No nuns or priests involved.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Autenrieth Road: quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: There is sufficient written and linked to on this thread to address the Catholic Church's remorse about what has happened.
The spokesman in the article originally linked didn't seem to show any remorse.
Do you know what the question was to which the spokesman gave his answer? I don't. Do you think those were the only words he spoke? I don't.
It's come to the point where Catholic spokesmen have to issue written responses only, because careful editing and editing out of crucial parts of verbal responses make it possible to totally mangle what was in fact said. I do not know if that happened here, but we don't hear what the priest is asked or what the context of his reply was. Very neat trick.
So if you want to know what the full response was, you need to read the statement of the Archbishop of Tuam.
Right here in this thread Exclamation Mark has engaged in the ploy of taking a phrase I used about something completely different and applying it to the whole matter of the children's homes. I refer to this post. Neatly done. Except he lifted that phrase from this: quote: If you don't like hierarchy and you don't like clergy, that is your issue. It's not a Catholic issue. Catholics know their value.
See how easy it is to take something out of context and then use it to hammer someone? Fortunately, it's here in writing so we can see what Exclamation Mark has done.
I'd like to see the full interview with that priest.
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: This is a vital point often overlooked; partly because Irish society does not want to look at it.
When the reports on historical child abuse by priests in Ireland were published, I was surprised to learn that, if a case was reported to the Garda, the chances of then doing anything about it was slim to nil.
Back in the 80s when I first read a news article about sexual abuse by Catholic clergy in Louisiana, parents said when they complained about the abusive/illegal behavior of the local priest, the community ostracized them. How dare you criticize our priest! Being an intensely Catholic community, ostracism means losing customers, losing jobs, kids harassed in school, etc.
I expect that reaction is why the local police did nothing in Ireland: first, they simply did not believe the accusation, priests are perfect. Second, they knew if they did believe and act they would be opposed by an outraged public - outraged at them.
Still, I don't understand why the church institution was looking for guidance to local culture instead of to Jesus' commands to care for the downtrodden and outcast.
And yes I have that same question about American southern churches in slavery era, and some stuff I've seen in individual churches today, but when I ask I'm told "the behavior is wrong but you have to let people do what they want or they won't come back and that will hurt the church."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: I have been addressing very specifically those on here who have been making sectarian capital out of this. "Come to us, we're better". No, sadly, you were and are no better in these issues.
The Catholic Church is the one making the claim to be the one true church, not mine.
Of course I think my church is better -- I wouldn't still be in it if I didn't. But it's not a doctrinal claim.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote: So if you want to know what the full response was, you need to read the statement of the Archbishop of Tuam.
Thank you for posting that full response - it is most revealing.
Alongside the expressions of shock and horror, we find this: "While the Archdiocese of Tuam will cooperate fully nonetheless there exists a clear moral imperative on the Bon Secours Sisters in this case to act upon their responsibilities in the interests of the common good."
It's nice to know the Archbishop has identified the 'clear moral imperative' on the Bon Secours Sisters to 'act upon their responsibilities....'
Alas, there has never been such recognition of the clear moral imperative for the Sisters' hierarchical overlords - the RCC - to act on their responsibilities. In point of fact, this statement is only notable for one thing - there isn't a single paragraph, sentence or even one word which acknowledges the slightest responsibility of the church for the suffering and deaths of these children.
They'll co-operate with any enquiry, while already making it clear that it is the Sisters 'wot dunnit'. Ironically, I think those sisters - an integral part of the RCC family - are effectively going to find out how it feels to be the unwanted and abandoned daughter. The church will organise a service - they'll even provide a memorial plaque...but they won't have the decency to admit their fault. I'd say this gutless, self-serving statement was obscene, if not for the fact that I reserve this word for what actually happened to these kids, under the tender ministrations of the Catholic church. And ultimately it is the church which has to answer for those young lives - no matter how much the Archbishop would now apparently like to distance himself from the Sisters.
This statement is a despicable refusal to own any meaningful culpability for these terrible events. Naturally, there can be no expression of remorse for the church's behaviour, because there is not the slightest admission they were involved - let alone, ultimately responsible.
The Archbishop's words left me feeling that what they couldn't cover up, they would disown...putting me in mind of how the RCC has handled so many other 'incidents'. Protecting the church at all costs - even at the price of honesty and integrity - has never been a good strategy: it makes it harder to prevent future, similar episodes, and it also damages the reputation of the church....and not just the RCC.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: quote: Originally posted by Autenrieth Road: The spokesman in the article originally linked didn't seem to show any remorse.
Do you know what the question was to which the spokesman gave his answer? I don't. Do you think those were the only words he spoke? I don't.
Point taken, thanks TT (or why do I always think it should be TTT? That "triple" is a powerful magnet...)
-------------------- Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Giving credit where due --
quote: June 8, 2014 03:42 PM EST | AP
DUBLIN (AP) — Ireland should investigate the Catholic Church's mistreatment and burial of babies who died decades ago in nun-operated homes for unmarried mothers, a senior church official declared Sunday as the country confronted another shameful chapter of its history of child abuse.
Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin made his appeal following revelations that hundreds of children who died inside a former church-run residence for infants were buried in unmarked graves at the site in western Ireland.
Martin said the probe should have no church involvement, be led by a judge ...
Huff Post article today
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: [QUOTE]Fortunately, it's here in writing so we can see what Exclamation Mark has done.
Yes it's very easy to blame others isn't it? Yes I took the phrase and I accept it is (sort of) out of context. But the fact is you have used a form of words - as the RCC is wont to use words - to dissemble.
Later on you could, quite reasonably, point out that you've said that it's not a Catholic issue. If no one picked you up, then you'd see your understanding as unchallenged - in which case you'd consider yourself (and your views) totally vindicated.
I won't play that game TT. You're in mortal danger of adding your culpability to the list of others: you are defending the indefensible. I repeat as others have here - the case in question is a Catholic one: it was overseen by the RCC, the abuse happened at the hands of the RCC; the RCC determined the approach taken and, subject, to more detailed investigation possibly colluded and initiated cover ups.
Whether this was all a "policy" decision or the work of twisted individuals remains to come out, perhaps not in this world.
Spare a thought, would you, for the families affected - ask your congregation what they think as I suggested earlier and you might get a non priestly view of it all.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: Giving credit where due --
quote: June 8, 2014 03:42 PM EST | AP
DUBLIN (AP) — Ireland should investigate the Catholic Church's mistreatment and burial of babies who died decades ago in nun-operated homes for unmarried mothers, a senior church official declared Sunday as the country confronted another shameful chapter of its history of child abuse.
Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin made his appeal following revelations that hundreds of children who died inside a former church-run residence for infants were buried in unmarked graves at the site in western Ireland.
Martin said the probe should have no church involvement, be led by a judge ...
Huff Post article today
That's about 35 years overdue but nevertheless I applaud his words.
Just make sure the Judge is independent: might be best to have one who is non RCC and from the UK.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It wouldn't really be an Irish investigation if it was lead by the British would it ?
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Just make sure the Judge is independent: might be best to have one who is non RCC and from the UK.
Why would that make him independent? Sectarianism and British rule have been the curse of Ireland for at least 400 years. Any findings of an inquiry chaired by a judge from the UK would be unacceptable to Irish politicians, religious figures and the Irish population alike.
(x-p with Doublethink) [ 09. June 2014, 06:23: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Just make sure the Judge is independent: might be best to have one who is non RCC and from the UK.
Why would that make him independent? Sectarianism and British rule have been the curse of Ireland for at least 400 years. Any findings of an inquiry chaired by a judge from the UK would be unacceptable to Irish politicians, religious figures and the Irish population alike.
(x-p with Doublethink)
Point taken but the Judge does really need to be independent, hear the evidence in public, allow no stone to remain unturned and keep no evidence secret, otherwise the allegations of cover up will continue. [There are ways of ensuring that the names of the families affected can be kept secret for reasons of sensitivity].
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: I won't play that game TT. You're in mortal danger of adding your culpability to the list of others: you are defending the indefensible.
Bullshit. He's defending the RCC as an institution, as a whole, he's not defending the treatment of children in this or any other of the Irish homes (which weren't all Catholic!).
Plus - mortal danger? Seriously? C'mon.
quote: Spare a thought, would you, for the families affected - ask your congregation what they think as I suggested earlier and you might get a non priestly view of it all.
Spare us this histrionic crap!
It's been pretty clearly explained on this thread how this is an Irish problem, not exclusively a Catholic one.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
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Posted
Exclamation Mark - the fact that you managed to get outraged about pretty much everything and see corruption everywhere and always know what's wrong with every church diminishes the credibility of your assertions and dilutes the impact of the truly outrageous. Or would dilute the impact of the truly outrageous if anyone was still listening to you.
-------------------- Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: I hope it isn't unseemly for me to say it in front of others, Karl, but since you've added me to your ignore list I can't respond to your PM otherwise. I assure you I will not argue with you on the Lord's Day.
Mea Culpa. I don't recall doing that. Consider yourself unignored. Indeed, consider the matter closed. I over-reacted. [ 09. June 2014, 08:07: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
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Posted by Rhythm Methodist: quote: The Archbishop's words left me feeling that what they couldn't cover up, they would disown...
When the first reports came out regarding child abuse and the Roman Catholic church there was a rather clear desire to create a bit of distance. While I don't defend this, it is an entirely human and understandable response. Many clergy had trained with those who turned out to be serial abusers, some were left in total shock, others refused to believe it and this trickled through to the hierarchy in an unhelpful way.
Towards the end of Benedict's time things were rough for RCs here. Whether it was true or not, many (including the hierarchy) felt that there was an element of flagging energy to deal with it all and a pervasive hopelessness which wasn't motivating all the positive changes that were and needed to continue to take place in response to this crisis. The RC church needed someone who could communicate clearly and with honesty and be charismatically media savvy. That is what they got, and for the situation here that has been good. It has motivated the changes, built in a new confidence to move forward in a positive way and create the necessary safeguards into the future.
However, there is one issue that has been dogging the whole affair here - namely that the orders have not played ball, some of them have been playing catch up in an extraordinarily slow fashion which looks to some as dragging their feet, and some have refused to take either responsibility, make the necessary public statements or even commit to the agreed compensatory system set up between the church and state. In this context the comments are entirely appropriate. Orders that believe they can sit tight and say nothing in the hope that by next week it will all be forgotten should no longer be permitted to do this, nor should the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Ireland be seen as the enablers for this to happen.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: quote: Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras: The Church of Ireland welcomes you.
This sort of sectarian opportunism is what is most unsettling about this thread.
I don't fucking believe this! 800 babies dead and the Catholic Apologists still manage to find a way of claiming that the most disturbing thing is how persecuted those poor ickle Catholics are.
Yes, LSK's comment was in poor taste. But yours was fundamentally lacking in humanity.
-------------------- My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell?
Then you should just give up now on the idea of preaching that God is good in any sense other than the Greeks used the term "The Kindly Ones". If you believe a sacramental order is the main thing that stands between children and hell then you are a maltheist, believing that God is evil and must be placated because otherwise it is God's will that the innocent be tortured past human imagining.
-------------------- My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by QLib: Exclamation Mark - the fact that you managed to get outraged about pretty much everything and see corruption everywhere and always know what's wrong with every church diminishes the credibility of your assertions and dilutes the impact of the truly outrageous. Or would dilute the impact of the truly outrageous if anyone was still listening to you.
I accept what you say. I recognise that my words and attitudes have been inappropriate. Sorry.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Justinian: quote: Originally posted by IngoB: What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell?
Then you should just give up now on the idea of preaching that God is good in any sense other than the Greeks used the term "The Kindly Ones". If you believe a sacramental order is the main thing that stands between children and hell then you are a maltheist, believing that God is evil and must be placated because otherwise it is God's will that the innocent be tortured past human imagining.
I can't help but to see it as an expression of God's unfathomable mercy that a mere splash of water and the recitation of a line of Sacred Scripture is all it takes for a baby to become part of the body of Christ.
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
It's only merciful if the baby has done something to deserve condemnation.
Which it hasn't. So its not mercy at all.
Justinian is quite correct. [ 09. June 2014, 13:02: Message edited by: Evensong ]
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm still gawking at the sentence that the sacramental order might be the thing that stands between children and hell. Bloody hell, to coin a phrase. So what do the Protestants say to that - that it's Christ who stands between them and hell?
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Justinian: quote: Originally posted by Triple Tiara: quote: Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras: The Church of Ireland welcomes you.
This sort of sectarian opportunism is what is most unsettling about this thread.
I don't fucking believe this! 800 babies dead and the Catholic Apologists still manage to find a way of claiming that the most disturbing thing is how persecuted those poor ickle Catholics are.
Yes, LSK's comment was in poor taste. But yours was fundamentally lacking in humanity.
I knew that at some stage you were bound to hove into view.
If you didn't always attempt to charge in on your white rocking horse you would have noted the words "this thread".
And you don't find using dead babies to promote sectarian opportunism disturbing?
-------------------- I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Justinian: Then you should just give up now on the idea of preaching that God is good in any sense other than the Greeks used the term "The Kindly Ones". If you believe a sacramental order is the main thing that stands between children and hell then you are a maltheist, believing that God is evil and must be placated because otherwise it is God's will that the innocent be tortured past human imagining.
FWIW, I was thinking there about a regular life of those children growing up and living as adults, where most of the sacramental order comes into its own. In the particular context here that perhaps was not readily apparent. My expectation for what happens to unbaptised infants who die is that at worst they will live in a state of eternal natural (but not supernatural) happiness that is traditionally assigned to limbo.
Furthermore, my concepts of the goodness of God (as God) and His love are those of classical theism. They are rather far removed from the now more standard projections of human morals and emotions onto the Godhead. They are instead mostly statements about the structure of creative causality (see here and here). For the most part, your rage against the God I believe in hence makes about as much sense to me as somebody being incandescent about Maxwell's equations. So your comparison to Greek gods is precisely wrong. I'm an atheist concerning both the Greek gods labeled "kind" in fear/sarcasm, and the actually kind anthropomorphic god many Christians believe in today. And I do not take that label in vain here. I believe that it is not possible that such god(s) exist as Creator. As demiurge(s) perhaps, but not as God. [ 09. June 2014, 14:56: Message edited by: IngoB ]
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Oh good grief, Father TT, my throw-away comment wasn't even particularly about dead children, but really more broadly addressed purely rhetorically to any theoretical Irish Catholics sufficiently dismayed to leave their Church. This is an internet forum, after all -- not real life. For what it's worth I don't think that Church-changing necessarily solves essential problems for individuals, but sometimes there is enough mismatch between aspects of personal identity (to frame it broadly) and an institution (Church or other) that one experiences no other alternative than to leave. Sometimes it's just too painful for individuals to stay where they are, and as Pope Francis recently commented, some people have their foot out the door anyway -- they don't really accept the ecclesiology of the RCC and don't accept significant parts of the magisterium (that was one of three groups of which the Pope was speaking, in this case what he labelled "the alternativists" or what have been labelled "cafeteria catholics"). While one might legitimately argue that these folks should submit themselves to the teachings and discipline of the RCC, it's just reality that many will not. I'm not out recruiting for Thames-swimmers, but if Christians in whatever communities find themselves in what they experience as an intolerable situation, I'm happy for them to join us in Ecclesia Anglicana (and God knows, we've got our own set of problems).
Finally, I've got more important things to critique about the Roman Catholic Church - both for good and bad - than what an order of nuns behaving badly did in the past. I'd be more worried about how the Church functions in the present day.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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