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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Flags
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I don't know whether there has been a thread on this before.
In the U.S., many churches have U.S. flags in their worship spaces, typically off to one side of the chancel. I have sometimes run across discussions about this, questioning its propriety. I don't know whether this practice is found in other countries.
So: Is this found in other countries, and do you regard it as good, bad or neutral?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Churches- Anglican churches at least- in England & Wales sometimes have a Union Jack by a war memorial tablet: this would not IME be very common but nor would it be surprising. Cathedrals and some major historic town parish churches may have the former colours of the local regiment laid up there for safe keeping. But otherwise, no, the national flag is not a standard part of church furnishing here. That said, in the C18 and C19 it was quite common for CofE chuches to display the Royal Arms, but that related AIUI to the Royal Supremacy over the church.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
It would be a big no-no in the Netherlands.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I thought that those churches which displayed the Royal arms either did so because they had been in receipt of funds from Queen Anne's Bounty or because a Chancel Liability existed with the Crown or a (usually long-dead) senior member of the royal family.
Churches of the Church of England may fly flags from their tower flag pole (if they have one) and what these should be is laid down in a schedule.
Tomorrow being the Nativity of the BVM, for example, the cross of St George should be flown.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Ah, didn't know that about the Arms- thanks. I believe the 'default' flag for a CofE church to fly is the cross of St George with the diocesan arms in the canton, isn't it? Here in Wales we fly, if anything, the CinW flag. But not really seen insde the Church. I am trying to think whether or not I have ever seen a Red Dragon in a Welsh church or chapel. I don't think I have but I wouldn't swear to it. It would not be usual, anyway.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yes, flags are common. Ours sits in the nave. We move it into the chancel when we have a funeral for a veteran. I'm not into God and Country sort of things but not a battle I'm willing to fight.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
Nope. No flags where I worship and glad of it.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
No, NO, NO! A thousand times, NO.
Keep the battle pennants, the war flags, the national flags out of the worship space. Repeat after me: "Ethnophyletism is a heresy, a very bad heresy."
The Christian Ensign is the Cross, adorned with the suffering body of the Savior. It is the sign accompanied by lights and by incense. It is the ensign before which we bow our heads when it passes by in procession.
If one must have banners, then do, depicting: the Holy City, the Virgin Mother, the title saint of the parish, a Corpus Christi banner, the implements of the crucifixion, most anything that guides the mind back to the cross.
Anything else is a compromise with the civil religion. I realize that it may take decades before diligent priest and wardens can manage to extirpate an American flag from the church.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The vast number of civic or national memorials at churches is overwhelming, too. I went to St.Paul's in London for the first time last month. You could hardly dram one more national commemoration in.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I realize that it may take decades before diligent priest and wardens can manage to extirpate an American flag from the church.
Our TEC shack has a few flags - there's a US flag, one that appears to be the lion rampant of the royal arms of the kings of Scots, and I think the Union Jack (although I haven't looked closely enough to see whether it's the current version or the 1776-era version.) I've never seen them moved, and I've never seen any attention paid to them, even on one of the nationalistic holidays.
The only vaguely flag-like thing that I have ever seen "in use" is the parish banner, which carries the name of our church, the cross, and the insignia of the Episcopal Church, and comes out in procession sometimes.
I'd guess that the Boy Scout troop at the church might get the US flag out when they meet.
This thread is rather inspiring me to go and ask the priest why the flags are there, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
Usually the only flags you'll see in a church here are the Union flag and then the Newfoundland flag (at least one of the three flags of Newfoundland), or the Vatican flag.
Not in the chancel or the sanctuary but I know the cathedral in town has a Union flag and then the St George's up hanging over the altar rail.
Our Basilica has the Vatican Flag and a Newfoundland flag.
My parish changes it. Could be the Union, could be Newfoundland, sometime the Irish flag and then others the Vatican.
When I travelled to Florida however long ago that was, there were American flags er'rywhere and I wasn't surprised to see five or six in various places at the Shrine of Mary, Queen of the Universe where I went to Mass.
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Keep the battle pennants, the war flags, the national flags out of the worship space. Repeat after me: "Ethnophyletism is a heresy, a very bad heresy."
Amen. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
God hates flags.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Local regimental flags flew in the chancel in the Anglican Church when I was a child. On a funerary visit recently, I noted that they had been framed and moved to the church walls with the other memorials. The Regiments were disbanded in the 1968 reformation of the Forces.
Otherwise the only time I see flags of any sort in Church (there are some in the narthex) is when there is a Church parade. The flags are removed after the Parade.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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pomdownunder
Apprentice
# 16666
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Posted
Just as a counterexample, I know of several charismatic evangelical churches in the UK (including the one in Surrey that I was a member of) where flags of many different nations are displayed in what space they meet in (in our case, a rented conference venue)
These are generally to symbolise one or both of:
- a concern for an interest in reaching out to the nations of the world as per the great commission (especially flags for nations where that church has an active involvement of some kind)
- the multicultural make up of the local church, with flags for the nations represented among the members
Posts: 8 | From: Down Under | Registered: Sep 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Bad. Very bad. OK on an OHP for Remembrance but that's it.
Banners only here.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The Boys' and Girls' Brigades customarily parade their flags in and out of church at Parade Services, with the congregation standing. I once sat at such a service with a French Mennonite, who refused to stand - that caused eyebrows to be raised.
In my last church, the BB and GB companies closed down. One person wanted to have the now-disused flags suspended from the ceiling in their memory, and threatened to leave the church if they weren't. Delicate negotiation was required!
[ 08. September 2014, 08:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. Has anyone ever come across "the Christian flag" being displayed in church?
Dear God, gules on azure? I think not.
Oh, and the first example of its use in the link is from 'Focus on the Family' so I definitely think not...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I tend to agree ... nevertheless, has anyone ever come across it?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
OK: I've consulted our parish oracle on flags this is the gen.
Churches of the Church of England should, by default, if they raise a flag have the Cross of St George which has in the first quadrant the arms of the diocese; the diocesan arms are not to be adorned with a mitre or any other device. The diocesan arms should be in the correct position on both sides of the flag - in other words they should be against the jack when the flag is raised.
If a church doesn't have a flag with the diocesan arms it may fly the cross of St George alone.
On those days designated for the flying of the union flag from government buildings churches should either fly a union flag or nothing. A full list is available from the DCMS but broadly: birthdays of the sovereign, her husband, children, the wife of the heir apparent and heir presumptive; accession day, coronation day, Remembrance Sunday.
Flags should not be flown at half-mast (not even on Remembrance Sunday) unless a directive has been issued for national mourning from the office of the Earl Marshal.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pomdownunder:
Just as a counterexample, I know of several charismatic evangelical churches in the UK (including the one in Surrey that I was a member of) where flags of many different nations are displayed in what space they meet in (in our case, a rented conference venue)
These are generally to symbolise one or both of:
- a concern for an interest in reaching out to the nations of the world as per the great commission (especially flags for nations where that church has an active involvement of some kind)
- the multicultural make up of the local church, with flags for the nations represented among the members
Yes, these are the reasons flags are present within my NFI church, often they are donated by members. There were 23 nationalities at a service head count last year and these are reflected in the number of flags.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
The Flag Institute (a charity) has a useful poster offering advice on flag flying days for churches, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available on its website.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
The use of flags doesn't always intend any kind of nationalism, but it is a bit naive to suppose that they won't be taken that way. See for example the comment under 'distractions' on this mystery worshipper report.
Having one but not another may be a simple oversight, but one cannot help but think there may be political connotations.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
A US flag and the "Christian" flag are often seen flanking the chancel in US Protestant churches. I've seen this across the denominational spectrum.
I seem to recall that there was a "pledge" to the Christian flag too, used in Sunday School, but not sure how widespread that was.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I've never seen a 'christian' flag in the UK and it would not be legal for it to be flown from a CofE flag staff.
Which is just as well, seeing how prominently it features in promotional material to do with Focus on the Family, that splendid institution which promotes bigotry and hatred across an interdenominational group of affiliates and which has a worryingly large war-chest to do it with - more than $90 million at the last count.
Frankly, I'd fight tooth and nail not to have anything in any church I attended which linked me in any way to such an organisation.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
We had a bit of a debate about it in a previous parish I belonged to. The solution was to mount the U.S. flag on one end of the front of the west-end choir loft, with the Episcopal Church flag on the other end of the loft. (I'm sure the Flag Code was consulted and followed.)
This arrangement kept the flag present but not visible to those looking toward the sanctuary. So it no longer competed with the altar, pulpit, east-end Christus Rex, etc.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The only 'flag' we have at our place is on a tiny beer fridge which lives in the Vestry (it is a gift, and is intended to hold the weekly Art Group's milk.....).
It is decorated in Union Jack style, and I have told enquirers that it is, in fact, a new Tabernacle for the High Altar..... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I thought that those churches which displayed the Royal arms either did so because they had been in receipt of funds from Queen Anne's Bounty or because a Chancel Liability existed with the Crown or a (usually long-dead) senior member of the royal family.
No - there was a statute in 1660 requiring all churches to have them.
They were often in place of the rood or next to the 10 commandments, creed and lord's prayer which acted s a reredos.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Delicate negotiation was required!
Always take a threat of that nature seriously - always say "Go on, then"
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
We don't have any flags in the building. I would put my foot down, strongly, on any suggestion to introduce one anywhere except in the narthex. Placing a national flag inside the sanctuary is idolatrous.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
When I first saw this thread title, I thought it was about the horrors described in this thread. I was quite relieved to see otherwise!
Regarding the Christian Flag, as mentioned a few times so far, this is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject. It appears it was a North American development, with it's use outside that region mainly in areas that were the focus of mission work in the 20th Century.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Mainstream churches here in the colonies used to be chockers with them, most quietly removed over the years by sneaky, perceptive clergy, elders etc.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
God hates flags.
quote:
to which W Hyatt responded:
Quotes file!
Yeah, it's quite good. But in the UK it's quite old. One of Jamie Oliver's restaurant chains is called Union Jacks, and that's the tagline on some of their stuff - or used to be, they've probably updated and have something new by now. Pic
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
My pad has, in the mezzanine gallery, three regimental flags from some war or other. The tradition is that they hang until, like all of us, they return to dust. Bloody ugly, actually, but then I guess we are after we've hanged for a while, metaphorically or, worse, literally.
There used to be four but my predecessor-bar-one, a pacifist, started to remove one. It's twenty or more years ago now. He still has not been forgiven by ex servicemen and women.
A sister cathedral across the island, which has badged itself as a "Centre for Peace and Reconciliation" has worked outstandingly hard at the question of war memorials and flags where they have been a part of a colonialist mentality of oppressing the "pre-contact" people, the local Māori. They were, after much consultation, liturgically removed from centre stage, as it were, of the cathedral's sacred space, and pprocessed and liturgically re-hung in a side chapel(ish). They also initiated and consecrated a peace altar frontal to convey a different message to future generations.
They and their dean are amazing, whose sandals I am not worthy etc. Somewhere in their action is a message relevant to flags. Ultimately I would not have any symbol of temporal power in the scared places of God, but sometimes our history must be negotiated.
It's tricky.
PS ... that circumflex on "Māori" should be a macron. It's never done that before. May no Māori reader take offence.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
A US flag and the "Christian" flag are often seen flanking the chancel in US Protestant churches. I've seen this across the denominational spectrum.
I seem to recall that there was a "pledge" to the Christian flag too, used in Sunday School, but not sure how widespread that was.
The church I grew up in (Disciples of Christ, so not necessarily the type of church you'd stereotype as having a Christian flag) had a US flag and one of these on opposite sides of the chancel, and, once a year (I forget which Sunday—Memorial Day, maybe?), the congregation would recite both pledges of allegiance, stumbling through the unfamiliar one.*
The Basilica of the National Shrine has a giant US flag hanging on the belltower right now, as well as the usual one inside (across the chancel from the Vatican flag), and has for the past few weeks—I suspect it was put up for freshman orientation and nobody's yet bothered to take it down. TBH, while I understand that flags are popular on about everything in this town and that it might be the National Shrine, it still looks a bit tacky. Then again, I don't like it when they tart up the building for graduation either, so what do I know?
*ETA: we all grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag every day at school and before every civic function, so of course everyone knew that one by heart!
[ 09. September 2014, 02:38: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
I am reminded of an old story in the Diocese of Southwark (I think). An Anglo-Catholic parish petitioned for a Faculty for a new flag pole. When the Faculty came back (as is customary) it included conditions as to the flags to be flown. It read along the lines of "only the Flag of St George with Diocesan Arms or another approved national flag".
The (naughty) Vicar felt this gave him sufficient scope to fly the Vatican Flag!
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I do (I think) get the point of US churches having the flag there, but then I'm reasonably comfortable with civic religion. Wouldn't work here because the flag doesn't have anything like the cultural significance that it seems to have in the States- all that pledging allegiance stuff seems at best tweely odd and at worst rather sinister to us. But different strokes, and all that.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
... of course, when the natural order is followed during the 6 Nations then sometimes angels drape the Baner Cymru (Welsh flag) over the gallery near the organ loft ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That goes without saying! But then that's the flag of Heaven, isn't it?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Many years ago my wife was a teacher in a missionary children's school in Senegal. It was run by an American missionary society and the majority of teachers and students were American. There was, however, a small "British section".
Every morning, the whole school - including local Senegalese staff - had to pledge allegiance to the American flag. The Brits objected, saying that (a) neither they nor the local staff were American; (b) pledging allegiance wasn't part of their school culture; (c) if allegiance was to be pledged it ought to be to the Senegalese flag; (d) it was akin to idolatry as a Christian's allegiance is to God alone.
Most of the Americans simply couldn't understand that there was any problem, as the Pledge is so ingrained in US culture. At least the Brits (but not the Senegalese) were then let off from having to participate.
(This isn't an anti-American rant, by the way; I am sure there are aspects of British culture that Americans find bizarre!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'm so glad someone on here realises that - thanks Albertus. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm so glad someone on here realises that - thanks Albertus.
The Scots might not agree, especially in the current climate.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... Every morning, the whole school - including local Senegalese staff - had to pledge allegiance to the American flag. The Brits objected, saying that (a) neither they nor the local staff were American; (b) pledging allegiance wasn't part of their school culture; (c) if allegiance was to be pledged it ought to be to the Senegalese flag; (d) it was akin to idolatry as a Christian's allegiance is to God alone.
Most of the Americans simply couldn't understand that there was any problem, as the Pledge is so ingrained in US culture. At least the Brits (but not the Senegalese) were then let off from having to participate. ...
That's really weird. It's disturbing that anyone would let missionaries go overseas on their behalf who were so insensitive to foreign cultures not to see that that is expecting the Senegalese to be daily treasonous in their own country.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Indeed, although (to be fair) this was back in 1978. This particular group (which I will not name) were particularly insensitive to culture and found it hard to separate "Christianity" from "the way our country does things". Admittedly we all do that at times, probably more than we might realise!
On a similar theme, I flatly refuse to sing, "I vow to thee, my country". The tune - not written for singing - has too great a range anyway.
[ 09. September 2014, 15:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Bit like this, was it?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Given the chance, I'd fly the red flag from the building
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Printer-friendly view
