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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why do Gays have to 'come out'?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm going to quote one of the comments on the Daily Telegraph website because I think it hits this thread right between the eyes.
quote:
Sports personality announces he'll marry - comments - 'well done mate'
Sports personality announces new baby- comments - 'well done mate'
Sports personality announces new tatoo- comments - 'well done mate'
Sports personality announces he's gay - comments- 'who cares’,’ shut up', 'batting for the other side', 'I’m not homophobic, BUT', 'whys this news'
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Well done, orfeo.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Otter
Shipmate
# 12020
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Posted
Among other reasons, because I have a younger relative who Mr. Otter and I think may also be hanging out in a closet. Coming out might take some of the heat off if/when she does. My coming-out was actually was fairly anti-climactic, which is an even better example.
And because if enough of us do, we hope it will become as non-eventful as mentioning you like a particular hair color.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", YMMV, limited-time offer, IANAL, no purchase required, and the state of CA has found this substance to cause cancer in laboratory aminals
Posts: 1429 | From: Chicago, IL 'burbs | Registered: Nov 2006
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Because being straight is seen as the default. It is often implicitly assumed in conversation. You don't need to explicitly 'come out' as straight, because people generally assume it.
Oh really? You try being a single women in her 40s with a lesbian best friend. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
It doesn't bother me much - my friend is much more sensitive about it than I am, in case I come in for some of the abuse she occasionally gets. But it does feel weird that my sexuality is so much a matter of discussion.
So yes, weird though it sounds, every now and then I feel obliged to out myself as heterosexual. Mainly in case some nice man might be put off trying.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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StarlightUK
Shipmate
# 4592
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Posted
I wonder how the OP thinks those of us who are gay should respond to people who assume we are heteosexual. I wear a ring on my finger, as does my partner on his. If somebody comments upon it and asks if I am married (and it has happened) I have the choice to collude in their underlying assumption that I am straight or simply be honest with them and tell them that I am in a Civil Partnership. I can no more deny an integral part of who I am than a straight person can deny themselves. To do so would in my view be psychologically and spiritually damaging.I (and all other gay folk) was created in the image of God in exactly the same way as straight people have been. God looks at what he has created and calls it good:-)
Posts: 76 | From: Brighton | Registered: Jun 2003
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Because why should anybody lie to hide something that important in their life?
People fall in love, you know. Most people agree this is very good and happy news - so why would want to "keep it to ourselves"? Would you ask heterosexuals to keep quiet about it? (Maybe you would, I don't know - I'm asking.)
People naturally want to talk about the joy in their lives, and loving somebody else is one of the biggest joys of all - but you're asking people to be ashamed of it, Garden Hermit.
And that's really just weird, when you think about it....
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Because being straight is seen as the default. It is often implicitly assumed in conversation. You don't need to explicitly 'come out' as straight, because people generally assume it.
Oh really? You try being a single women in her 40s with a lesbian best friend.
Ah, okay - I'll reword that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Being straight is seen as the default unless people think they see evidence to the contrary. Actually, sometimes people think I'm a lesbian too, because I'm single, I don't flirt, I don't wear make-up, and I am not very girly. And because I'm a Christian, they assume I must think homosexuality is a terrible thing, so they think I must be a conflicted closet lesbian. They say things to indicate they think this, but people rarely ever simply ask outright - hence the need to 'come out' if people keep assuming untrue things about you (which can also be coming out heterosexual in cases like yours, but more often is coming out to be not heterosexual).
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Aside from honesty, a political stance, serving as a role model, etc. etc. and whatever other lofty ideals, staying closeted just takes a hell of a lot of psychic energy, especially for a celebrity. You can't be seen in public with the one you love, or if you are, you have to have a cover story. You set up sham dates so the paparazzi have pictures of you with someone of the appropriate gender. You dread the the inevitable interview question "so what about your love life?" and have to do a dance or outright lie. You read the tabloids with trepidation waiting for the moment when that nasty ex decides to get back at you with an exposé. You have to watch what you say or do at every moment, lest people suspect. And they likely do, so you wonder what they're saying behind your back, if they don't have to guts to say it to your face.
Just about every gay person I know sees coming out as positive experience (though sometimes with some hindsight), describing it as a relief, or even a liberation, even if the immediate aftermath was nasty (I know people who have lost jobs, lost friends, lost family). Coming out means layers of pretense and fear fall away. They may have some issues to deal with, but in the end a weight is lifted off their shoulders and they can get on with life.
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
A couple people said the equivalent of "Hi. I'm Mary. I'm bisexual." or "Hi. I'm Bob. I'm gay." I didn't understand the pertinence (at least not in that context).
I recently joined a Bible study with a small group I didn't know. I had no particular reason to think they were homophobic, but at my first meeting I made clear I was gay (though I was a little more graceful than just blurting out "By the way, I'm gay"). I figured it was just better to know up front where I stood, and of they were going to have a problem, it was better to know sooner rather than later. In that little group, intimate matters, or just "what did you do last weekend?", was likely to come up, and I didn't want to have to wonder about what I could or couldn't say.
Believe it or not, in my world people (half jokingly) say it's harder to come out as Christian than gay. Saying, "Sorry, can't make it to brunch, I have church," has raised more than a few eyebrows. I sometimes, when I can't be bothered, gloss over it with "I have other plans," but these days I figure if this person is going to know me, he or she might as well know now that I'm a card carrying, church going Christian up front, and let them be weird about it if they're going to. It's also true that if someone is going to be weird about something, be it gay or Christian or something else, being up front about it kinda pulls the rug out from under them.
[ 28. February 2011, 23:07: Message edited by: Wilfried ]
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I still don't get it.....
I have many aspects of my personality which I keep hidden.....I slowly reveal them to people I choose to, and when I think it necessary.
In the past several friends have told me privately that they are gay or have gay fantasies. They didn't tell the local newspaper.
Pardon me, but the above sounds suspiciously like a form of "some of my best friends are..." when one is about to say or do something discriminatory.
Public figures find it in their interest to come out publicly: open the closet door themselves rather than wait for an opportunistic scandal-monger to force it open at a time of his or her choosing. It's only prudent. Senator Craig didn't come out. He was outed, and today he is no longer a senator. Barney Frank came out and gets re-elected with nary a second thought among his constituents.
But really now, how many people in private life come out by issuing a press release? They just tell people whom they know, with various degrees of ease and casualness. Perhaps one of your fantasies is that these friends of yours choose you and only you to confide in. Why should they be telling you alone? What difference would it make in their lives to tell you and no one else? Assuming that they don't fancy you, why would the matter even come up with you in particular? As for sexual fantasies per se, I've never breathed a word of specifics about mine to any relative or close friend. What reason would there possibly be to do so? This claim of yours is a bit hard to believe.
To be sure, I must agree with you that there is something a little tacky and in less than the best of taste about any adult's making a production of coming out. It is probably different with kids, who are in a heterosexist environment by virtue of sheer numbers and may need to make a declaration in order to gain the space necessary to find kindred spirits. But in their case, I would also advise against making such a statement too final too soon. Adults should be able to forge their identities and be themselves without pigeonholing.
But as long as sexual orientation matters in the public sphere, coming out is a brave political statement with implications beyond oneself: i.e. it is altruistic. If Harvey Milk had not prevailed upon gay Californians to come out in their thousands, the whole country might today be living under various forms of "Briggs Initiative." We are now further from that threat than ever, and the reason is that ordinary people see too much of the truth about us to believe the old lies anymore. As much respect as I have for good taste, heaven help me if it causes me to "pass by on the other side" and overlook others in need.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
If it weren't for all the brave people who've come out before us, DP and I would be living in fear, and in an atmosphere of lying/unreality.
(I find it interesting that Real Christians[tm] who are adamantly against lying about anything else -- I've heard numerous pious folk say that if they were transported to the Nazi times they wouldn't even lie to a Gestapo agent about a Jewish refugee hiding in their cellar -- seem to think it's not only fine but preferable for their gay neighbors to lie, and lie about the most basic facts of their lives.)
I did have to keep quiet about my sexual orientation for much of my adult life -- as long as my parents were alive, in fact. I can tell you that my mental AND physical health both improved the day I stopped feeling the need to hide who I am and whom I love. It's made me a better, more authentic person.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Garden Hermit:
(1)You are conflating two different things: sexual activity and sexual orientation. Sexual activity =/= sexual orientation. (As many others have pointed out) straight people may engage in sexual activity that you may consider "gay" and gay people may engage in sexual activity that is common among straight people (other than penile-vaginal intercourse, obviously.) Sexual activity means "what bits go where". Sexual orientation is not about which bits go where: it is a social (and perhaps political) category. When someone says, "I'm gay" they are not telling you which bits go where, and it is simply incorrect (as well as rude) to speculate on their sexual activity.
(2) Sexual activity is a private matter. Sexual orientation is a public matter. Why? Because otherwise everyone assumes that everyone else is straight (that's called "heteronormative") and I imagine it would be damn annoying to be constantly assumed to be something I'm not. It's a way of announcing definitively to possibly well-meaning family and friends, "Look, stop fixing me up with people of the opposite sex. I'm not attracted to them." It reduces the invisibility of the gay community, and - horrors! - makes it more socially acceptable to be a functioning member of society and gay at the same time.
Garden Hermit, perhaps it would be a fun experiment for you to be perceived as gay in a context in which it is not socially acceptable. As long as you don't get the shit kicked out of you, of course. This might increase your understanding of, and empathy for, people who come out and say that they are gay and wish to be socially accepted as such.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
staying closeted just takes a hell of a lot of psychic energy
Amen. I had no idea just how much psychic energy until I stopped doing it!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Lord things move quickly around here. Nearly two pages and all the time in the wrong place.
Hold onto your hats as this thread moves to where is should always have been.
John Holding
Purgatory Host
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Public figures find it in their interest to come out publicly: open the closet door themselves rather than wait for an opportunistic scandal-monger to force it open at a time of his or her choosing. It's only prudent.
A former acquaintance (friend-of-a-friend) who was a closeted gay applied to one of the secret services (I think CIA) and they said they wouldn't take him if he wasn't out. That way it wasn't something that somebody could hold over him.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Well, that's an improvement. Back in the J. Edgar Hoover days, gay people were hunted out of government jobs ostensibly because were by definition security risks. Coming out wasn't an option.
[ 01. March 2011, 04:43: Message edited by: Wilfried ]
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
So Garden Hermit, if someone were to ask you "Are you heterosexual?" would you say, "Um, I don't care to discuss my sexual orientation--that's a private matter"? I doubt it. For one thing, if you said that, they'd probably think you were gay.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
It seems to me that some gays still risk losing their jobs if they come out. Yes, there are laws to prevent such discrimination. But any employer has ways to ease someone out of their position, if they are judged to be damaging to the company. The actual issue at the heart of the matter may not be mentioned at all - and I know gay people who are scared that such a thing would happen to them if they went public.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Back in the late 1970s I started a college course with a residential weekend and I wore a gay badge of some sort. I was the only out gay person at the event and there were a few mutterings about why I was making such a show of myself in this way when other folks didn't feel the need to declare their heterosexuality - this was interspersed with conversations about wives, husbands, children, etc. from the other participants.
Some people seem unable to make the connections!
I think my response of choice these days is the Queer Nation one of
quote:
We're Here, We're Queer, Get Used To It!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Garden Hermit - it's brilliant he's come out as gay. Secondary school students around here still bully people they suspect of being gay - it's the favourite insult for anything. I have watched at least one year 11 (16 year old) falling apart when he couldn't face himself and probably his mother's reactions and it was devastating for all of us trying to get him through school and exams without damage - to him or anyone else. He was almost certainly gay - not that we forced the discussion.
The more positive role models out there showing that being gay is not a bad thing and not something that has be hidden, the fewer teenagers who are advised to stay in the closet to avoid bullying and the fewer teenagers who cannot live with themselves when they work out they are gay.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Curiosity, have the teens in your area starting using the phrase "talking to Mr Tumnus"? It means "So deep in the closet (wardrobe) that they've reached Narnia" and it's an insult slung at those who use homophobic insults. I.e. "You're only homophobic because you're in denial and really gay yourself."
There's a bit of me that thinks a snappy playground reply to homophobia is good, but it's a pity the snappy reply involves using being gay as an insult. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I would say it involves being in denial as an insult - not necessarily being gay.
I like it. Although it is perhaps too subtle for its intended audience.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I made a mistake in the title...I should have added on National Broadcasting.
It was the 'Nationwide' bit that I was querying...not the individual admission to friends and family.
I was also interested in why the BBC took this as 'National News' for broadcast during the day...when there was so much else going on (eg the Green Lobby being split over the new proposed Railway line.)
The 'coming out' must have been issued by a lobby group for it to have been picked up.
There are a variety of programmes on TV where people discuss the most intimate details of their lives. I just wonder why ?
And weekend papers just love to revel in all sorts of 'admissions'.
Sorry for any confusion.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I was also interested in why the BBC took this as 'National News' for broadcast during the day...when there was so much else going on (eg the Green Lobby being split over the new proposed Railway line.)
The 'coming out' must have been issued by a lobby group for it to have been picked up.
GH - have you read the interview he gave? It's in the Daily Telegraph. It sounds to me as though the England team's pr people would have set up an interview with the journalist, who breaks the news, which then spreads to the other media. You can read there his own words about why he came out, including the bit where he says "Once the secret was out...my friendships with the boys (the Englad Cricket Team) blossomed. It’s easier now I’ve got nothing to hide. I can get fully involved in all the banter, which I love. It took a few days to get back to normal. I cracked a joke about myself and after that everything was absolutely fine."
It's unusual, and therefore newsworthy, because he is an international sports player - very few of them are openly gay.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
News broadcasters picked up on this because they thought people would be interested. Now, I don't care what some sports personality's sexual orientation is, like I don't care which Hollywood star is marrying which other one, which celebrity got drunk and punched someone last weekend and who's announced their pregnancy. I agree that it isn't news. However, if the media thinks it's interesting and hypes it it isn't the celebrity's fault. Most likely all they did was attend an interview and give an honest answer to a direct question.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
My personal favorite gay sports quote is by Martina N. In an interview a male reporter asked her is she was still gay. Her response: "Are you still the alternative?"
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
It seems to me that some gays still risk losing their jobs if they come out. Yes, there are laws to prevent such discrimination.
In 30 US states it is legal to fire someone for being gay. 37 states it's legal to fire someone for their gender identity (which could include me refusing to wear skirts, ever).
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Can I ask a vaguely related question to this thread?
If a sports person "comes out" in this way I could see a potentially uncomfortable situation with regard to changing facilities. As a woman I would not be comfortable taking off my clothes in front of any man apart from my husband (or a doctor for a medical exam)yet I'm quite happy stripping off in a women's only changing room. But I'm not sure I would be comfortable doing so if I knew that someone there had the potential to look at me sexually as I feel that is reserved for my spouse. Is that likely to be a source of discomfort? Is it likely to be considered discrimination if someone asked for a private changing area in that situation? How does this work in other situations where people share facilities without much privacy and are therefore divided up according to gender? (Army camp, group holiday hotel rooms, youth hostel, hospital ward etc)
Please forgive me if I am being an ignorant heterosexual here, I'm trying to learn and understand...
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
My personal favorite gay sports quote is by Martina N. In an interview a male reporter asked her if she was still gay. Her response: "Are you still the alternative?"
That's very similar to a quote from the film 'Bhaji on the Beach' where it is said by a feisty Asian lady to a yob.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Lucia, let's try reframing the question. If you were in a room full of naked men, would you be considering every single one of them an object of lust?
And, apart from a possible case of embarrassment, would you have any problem knowing how to behave?
It is almost 100% certain that if you have been happily stripping in front of other women, you have done so in front of lesbians. There may even have been a few who found you visually attractive.
The perhaps sadder truth, though, is that so many middle-aged overweight straight men are mortally afraid every gay man who gets a glimpse of them is going to want their body. Take it from me: we don't.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Can I ask a vaguely related question to this thread?
If a sports person "comes out" in this way I could see a potentially uncomfortable situation with regard to changing facilities. As a woman I would not be comfortable taking off my clothes in front of any man apart from my husband (or a doctor for a medical exam)yet I'm quite happy stripping off in a women's only changing room. But I'm not sure I would be comfortable doing so if I knew that someone there had the potential to look at me sexually as I feel that is reserved for my spouse. Is that likely to be a source of discomfort? Is it likely to be considered discrimination if someone asked for a private changing area in that situation? How does this work in other situations where people share facilities without much privacy and are therefore divided up according to gender? (Army camp, group holiday hotel rooms, youth hostel, hospital ward etc)
Please forgive me if I am being an ignorant heterosexual here, I'm trying to learn and understand...
I don't have it to hand, but somewhere I did see commentary from a homosexual that they are likely to be MORE uncomfortable about those situations than the heterosexuals around them.
Especially before coming out of course, but even afterwards.
Very few homosexuals would see a changing room full of heterosexuals as some kind of sexual opportunity.
Perhaps you should turn it around the other way. If you had the opportunity to be in the middle of a changing room full of men, would you see that as a chance to look at them sexually? Let's say they're all gay men so that you're pretty confident that they're not lusting after you and you feel safe from being looked at sexually yourself. Would you be openly gazing at them all?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Lucia, let's try reframing the question. If you were in a room full of naked men, would you be considering every single one of them an object of lust?
And, apart from a possible case of embarrassment, would you have any problem knowing how to behave?
Not every single one of them! But there might be someone who I found attractive but then it would feel extremely inappropriate to me that I was there with them naked and I would be very uncomfortable with that.
I would not want to see them naked and I would not want them to see me naked, because as I said for me I feel that nakedness and sexual attraction together is reserved for my spouse. So I suppose in theory if I was in a room full of gay men I would be less worried about stripping off! But it would feel extremely weird. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) I realise that others feel differently, for instance people who enjoy nudist activities presumably don't feel that way.
x-posted with Orfeo
[ 01. March 2011, 20:51: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Lucia, I would suspect for people in a locker room, it would become a matter of professional conduct--much the same way you (probably?) don't think twice about stripping for a male physician, and wouldn't consider it an imposition on what is reserved for your husband.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Very few homosexuals would see a changing room full of heterosexuals as some kind of sexual opportunity.
I wasn't in any way thinking of sexual opportunities in the changing room! Just more about the discomfort that could be felt by all parties.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Lucia, I would suspect for people in a locker room, it would become a matter of professional conduct--much the same way you (probably?) don't think twice about stripping for a male physician, and wouldn't consider it an imposition on what is reserved for your husband.
Thank you, that makes sense.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Lucia, let's try reframing the question. If you were in a room full of naked men, would you be considering every single one of them an object of lust?
And, apart from a possible case of embarrassment, would you have any problem knowing how to behave?
Not every single one of them! But there might be someone who I found attractive but then it would feel extremely inappropriate to me that I was there with them naked and I would be very uncomfortable with that.
I would not want to see them naked and I would not want them to see me naked, because as I said for me I feel that nakedness and sexual attraction together is reserved for my spouse. So I suppose in theory if I was in a room full of gay men I would be less worried about stripping off! But it would feel extremely weird. I realise that others feel differently, for instance people who enjoy nudist activities presumably don't feel that way.
x-posted with Orfeo
Well you've pretty much captured much of what this gay man feels in a change room. It's uncomfortable and awkward for ME.
You've also hit on something there with 'nudist activities', because I think there's a real issue equating bare flesh with sex. Obviously, bare flesh in the context of being with your husband can have a sexual context. But that doesn't hold true in all other contexts.
In fact, if the lesbians are looking at you with sexual attraction, they're probably not doing it in the change room much. They're doing it when they pass you on the street, in the corridor, in the shopping mall, as you're queueing, and so forth.
The fact that you're not AWARE of it, and that women don't suddenly jump on top of you while you're going about your daily business, shows that we're all quite capable of controlling ourselves and understand context.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
It was the 'Nationwide' bit that I was querying...not the individual admission to friends and family.
It is not something one "admits" as if it were shameful; it is an important clarification of one's identity. Once again, it is about a person's social identity, not their sexual activity.
It is important for gays and lesbians to tell society that they are not to be assumed to be heterosexual. I would guess it makes them feel less isolated and safer.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
For some reason, I find this to be appropriate. Changing room angst doesn't seem to have anything to do with sexuality.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
For some reason, I find this to be appropriate. Changing room angst doesn't seem to have anything to do with sexuality.
That was great.
Yup. I'm gay, but I'm definitely in the 'I'd rather have two pants than no pants' category! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
For some reason, I find this to be appropriate. Changing room angst doesn't seem to have anything to do with sexuality.
Yup that's funny!
Thanks for your replies. I appreciated that you answered me politely even if my question seemed a bit stupid. I don't know anyone in 'Real Life' to ask stuff like this or discuss it with. Most of the christians I know would probably be disturbed by the liberal direction I feel myself slipping in on the issue of homosexuality. And I don't know anyone well who is homosexual (as far as I know!)And discussions like this hopefully are helping me sort out some of the questions that pop up in my mind!
[ 02. March 2011, 07:53: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And Lucia, for my part I genuinely appreciate that you asked your question as a question, rather than framing it as a leaped-to conclusion.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I was also interested in why the BBC took this as 'National News' for broadcast during the day.
I'm pretty sure you're just taking the piss.
Your question is answered in your original post.
quote:
In the UK we've just had a cricketer declare himself to be 'Gay'...the first Cricketer to do it.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
My guess is that the whole point of the OP is that the OPer follows the cricket and is disgruntled now because he feels he can no longer tune in without imagining his sporting hero naked, sweaty, and in a clinch.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
My guess is that the whole point of the OP is that the OPer follows the cricket and is disgruntled now because he feels he can no longer tune in without imagining his sporting hero naked, sweaty, and in a clinch.
Brain bleach! Brain bleach!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
My guess is that the whole point of the OP is that the OPer follows the cricket and is disgruntled now because he feels he can no longer tune in without imagining his sporting hero naked, sweaty, and in a clinch.
There's another reason to watch sports?
(I find my enjoyment of the sport is directly related to the tightness of the uniforms involved. Basketball, meh. Football? BOOOORING. Baseball? Tight trousers and lots of bending over? Season tickets, please!)
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
(I find my enjoyment of the sport is directly related to the tightness of the uniforms involved. Basketball, meh. Football? BOOOORING. Baseball? Tight trousers and lots of bending over? Season tickets, please!)
My mother used to make noises like that about the Cleveland Browns. Their trousers apparently were tight in the sitzenplatz. She said she liked their "tight ends."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamentator
Apprentice
# 16278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Back in the late 1970s I started a college course with a residential weekend and I wore a gay badge of some sort. I was the only out gay person at the event and there were a few mutterings about why I was making such a show of myself in this way when other folks didn't feel the need to declare their heterosexuality - this was interspersed with conversations about wives, husbands, children, etc. from the other participants.
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Is having a conversation about your spouse or family quite the same as wearing a badge intended to display your sexual orientation to all who see it? I don't think it is that simple. It would be more appropriate to draw comparisons if you had had such similar conversations about your partner, for example, and this had drawn disdain.
Let me qualify this by stating that I am in no way justifying any negative comments you may have experienced then in response to the badge, but we should at least compare things accurately. Talking about family or whatever is, well, talking about your loved ones. It can hardly be said to be the same thing as standing up and declaring your sexuality.
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Glory to God.
Posts: 11 | From: London, UK | Registered: Mar 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The thing is...I stand up and declare my sexuality whenever I'm with my partner in public situations (grocery shopping, at the doctors', etc. being just a couple of examples) where it's clear we share a life together...whenever we have to explain our relationship to one another on legal/business papers...whenever anyone sees our identical wedding rings and does the math.
My feeling is that for some of you this constitutes an offensive level of "outness."
To which I say: Get over it.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lamentator
Apprentice
# 16278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamentator:
Is having a conversation about your spouse or family quite the same as wearing a badge intended to display your sexual orientation to all who see it?
Engagement and wedding rings also function as a badge - why do heterosexuals flaunt it?
Do they? I guess in some senses, yes. However, it is quite clear that in fact such trappings are no longer the domain merely of heterosexual couples, or are you indeed suggesting that gay couples should not or do not wear rings on certain fingers? More realistically, I suppose an argument could be made along the lines of sexually-orientated (in a heterosexual sense) t-shirts or other garments being flaunted as a statement, and this I feel would probably be a more valid comparison. Having said that, of course, I would react with a certain level of disapproval to any such overtly sexual display, so therein lies another argument to be explored. The rings you mention are more about commitment, in my book, than necessarily being a statement of sexuality.
[ 07. March 2011, 18:47: Message edited by: Lamentator ]
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Glory to God.
Posts: 11 | From: London, UK | Registered: Mar 2011
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