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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Poppies - Time to Forget?
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I'm probably the last of my family to be able to write this. My great-grandfather (my mother's mother's father) enlisted in 1916 (Library & Archives Canada put his attestation paper online a few years ago).
He was at Vimy and Passchendaele. A bit later he suffered a Mustard Gas attack where his respirator was compromised by a bullet. He survived, but his health was ruined for the rest of his life. He died of pneumonia in 1956.
I'm 33, so I never knew him, but I knew my great-grandmother who was widowed for 40 years; she died in 1994 and I certainly knew her. It wasn't kind what fate dealt to her, her widowhood wasn't easy either financially or emotionally.
I am probably the last who will ever have seen the family effects of the First World War.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Poppies have become highly political in the UK it seems. Not the selling of them, but the wearing of them.
No such problem is suffered in Australia.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
My pharmacist grandfather, a militiaman in the Queen's Own Rifles under Sir Henry Pellatt, ended up at the first gas attack near Ypres having his colleagues relieve themselves into handkerchiefs as impromptu gas masks. When his superiors noted his degree, he ended up training men in the use of gas masks, including a year of training US troops in Arkansas and Texas in Jim Crow days.
Out of the initial battalion heading off in 1914, he was one of the remaining 200 who marched back into Toronto in 1936. A drunk driver drove into the Remembrance Day parade in 1936 and killed him.
My great-uncle, famous in Arnprior for stealing an OPP car in 1942 to learn how to drive, was given a choice by the magistrate to either affiliate himself with the Lanark & Renfrew Scottish or take up residence in a local correctional institution-- he ended up taking permanent residence on the Scheldt delta. Almost half a century later I saw my grandmother standing on the porch at her house in Renfrew looking at the Bonnechere River and saying, very softly, "O Billy..."
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
We seem to have this debate every year.
My father in law fought in WWII but as his country was annexed by Russia, he was considered persona non grata by the Legion, which was long a hot bed of us vs. them thinking.
I won't wear a poppy for that reason, among others.
As many of us have noted, the recently installed Defence Minister would not have been able to enter a Legion Hall a couple of decades ago.
If the money from the poppy went to a Veteran's organization other then the Legion, like support for the Sunnybrook Veteran's hospital, or a Veteran's mental health effort, I'd wear one.
War is shit. It still is. Just ask the people working in the largest morgue in the world down in Delaware. I had a short conversation with a pilot flying out of there. He was fine as he was always in the cockpit. But he went through crew members a lot as they were in the back with the coffins.
I'm glad we take time to remember those who died and how crappy war is.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Poppies have become highly political in the UK it seems. Not the selling of them, but the wearing of them.
No such problem is suffered in Australia.
I'm putting this to the test. I've donated, but I'm not wearing one, and today is Remembrance Day. Remembrance is about more than a plastic and paper symbol that can be purchased for a few pence.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Ever since the Enniskillen bombing I have contributed to the Royal British Legion's Republic of Ireland branch - but living as I do now in Donegal near the border I can't wear the Poppy as it would be perceived, wrongly, as a symbol of Loyalism. I was in Scotland for a few days last week and happily wore the Scottish Poppy but once I got back to Belfast International I felt I had to take it off before I got on the bus to Derry.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Poppies have become highly political in the UK it seems. Not the selling of them, but the wearing of them.
Yes. Yet all they really are is a badge saying, "I donated to the British Legion" - just like wearing a little Lifeboat or World Wildlife sticker if you've donated to those.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Thanks all for recollections of the activities of your relatives. I was particularly interested to read about the conscientious objectors in the Pioneer Corps.
I read a number of accounts of people who failed to persuade the military tribunal that they were "absolutist" pacifists, who were then drafted into the Pioneer Corps. Often as the bombing was getting closer to their own relatives, they volunteered for more dangerous duties - including in the bomb disposal squads.
Quite a number also eventually enlisted in Parachute Field Ambulance, which was particularly dangerous as they were dropped into conflict alongside paratroopers to set up field hospitals.
These repeatedly captured by Germans as the battle waged on around them, but they just continued with their lifesaving operations - of soldiers from both sides.
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arse
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Quiche Eating Dissenter
Apprentice
# 17193
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Posted
On a personal note, I used to be a poppy wearer, on the grounds that it meant whatever the wearer chose it to mean (e.g. remembrance of one's own relatives who had been killed in the wars). Then this happened:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/nov/09/edl-roof-top-fifa-poppy
At that point, I decided that pressure to wear or display the poppy had gone too far - I took the poppy off my coat that day and have not worn one since. I do not imagine that I will be persuaded to wear one again. I deplore the right-wing appropriation of the poppy as a political symbol, which is still continuing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-3476041
I do not believe the poppy can be reclaimed purely as a symbol of remembrance - at least, not for a long time to come.
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If I don't fit into your theology, the problem is with your theology, not me.
Posts: 7 | From: Republic of Northern England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
I couldn't open your second link, QED, but the first one is depressing.
Possible tangent: has anyone come across black poppies this year? Some of our congo started wearing them. They are to point out the numbers of black soldiers who fought and died, but my feeling is that they create further divisions. The red poppy should commemorate *all* who died, and if people don't know about the black regiments then education is needed.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Ah! that worked - thanks....
...and another rather depressing article ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 11. November 2015, 10:40: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Why am I not surprised that Britain First pulled such a stunt? What a truly despicable group of people. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Who were they supposedly protecting those cadets from? The biggest threat is from BF.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, one of those thugs couldn't even be bothered to wear a poppy himself. Idiot.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Quiche Eating Dissenter
Apprentice
# 17193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Creswell:
And, one of those thugs couldn't even be bothered to wear a poppy himself. Idiot.
To be fair, the white spot on his chest may be light reflecting off a metal poppy pin. However, I've never quite understood the point of those - surely you can dust them off each year without giving a further donation to the Poppy Appeal?
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If I don't fit into your theology, the problem is with your theology, not me.
Posts: 7 | From: Republic of Northern England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Creswell:
And, one of those thugs couldn't even be bothered to wear a poppy himself. Idiot.
To be fair, the white spot on his chest may be light reflecting off a metal poppy pin.
I'm not inclined to be fair to a bunch of Nazis masquerading as "decent British people". Especially when they try to hijack the Poppy Appeal, and drag kids into their evil. It does more to dishonour those who died fighting the Nazis in 1939-45 than white poppies, no poppies, or not singing a hymn to a deity you don't believe in for the well being of a monarch you don't believe has any right to rule.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Has anyone come across black poppies this year? Some of our congo started wearing them. They are to point out the numbers of black soldiers who fought and died, but my feeling is that they create further divisions. The red poppy should commemorate *all* who died, and if people don't know about the black regiments then education is needed.
Interesting. I've just googled the black poppy. I found two websites which each gave a somewhat different take on what the black poppy is for.
These days, there's a degree of ambivalence about red poppies for a variety of reasons. Some wear them, some don't. Ethnic minorities are less likely to wear them.
I think it should be a matter of choice above all, and moreover, I don't think a poppy of any colour could foster unity in a pluralistic and multicultural nation like ours. Indeed, it could be said that the red poppy accentuates the divisions, rather than fostering unity. That being the case, only people like politicians and TV personalities who have to wear red poppies for career reasons should feel obliged to do so. The rest of us should go our own way and wear whatever kind of poppy we want, or none at all, for whatever personal reasons.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Only people like politicians and TV personalities who have to wear red poppies for career reasons should feel obliged to do so.
I disagree. No-one should feel obliged to, irrespective of status, especially if it's merely for "career reasons".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
What I mean is, people always do what they have to to get on in life, and people in public life rely on good PR to keep their lucrative jobs. That's not going to change, although the PR advantage of wearing a red poppy may well do so as the culture develops.
Ordinary people don't and shouldn't have to face the same level of scrutiny. They don't have to be people-pleasers.
[ 11. November 2015, 12:30: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Well, that is interesting, Svitlana. The ones at my church were worn mostly by some of our West Indian people (though one or two white British people did too) and the poppy was the one produced by blackpoppyrose.org. I didn't know about the black poppies from Stop the War Coalition (my ignorance, perhaps).
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I've got one with "1915 - 2015" on it - can't really use that one again.
Also, the pin badges don't get crushed / disintegrate in the rain.
I'm told by friends connected with the British Legion that there will be one produced every year (with the dates) to 2018.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Poppy fascism is ridiculous. There is no meaning in a symbol that is a de facto requirement.
Haig. A man who created a private charity whilst living on a public stipend created so he could "live as befits a peer". Created for the benefit of people who bravely fought, by a man as responsible for their injury as the enemy in a war that had no justification.
The poppy. An American symbol, required in Britain whilst largely forgotten* in the country of its origin.
I shall be happy when war is so distant a symbol is needed to remember it.
*To my knowledge, anyway.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Quiche Eating Dissenter
Apprentice
# 17193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not inclined to be fair to a bunch of Nazis masquerading as "decent British people". Especially when they try to hijack the Poppy Appeal, and drag kids into their evil. It does more to dishonour those who died fighting the Nazis in 1939-45 than white poppies, no poppies, or not singing a hymn to a deity you don't believe in for the well being of a monarch you don't believe has any right to rule.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
You put it a good deal better than I can.
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If I don't fit into your theology, the problem is with your theology, not me.
Posts: 7 | From: Republic of Northern England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I live near Washington DC. No poppies visible here. People sport American flag pins (de regeur if you are running for office) and flags get stuck onto median strips. Today I am sporting a long-sleeved tee shirt vividly adorned with US Army emblems. No one has remarked on it.
Veterans are chiefly honored by free appetizers or desserts, at restaurant chains. If they offer free drinks they are mobbed.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That doesn't really honour the dead.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
That doesn't really honour the dead.
In the US, Veteran's Day isn't really about honouring the dead. That role is saved for Memorial Day, which has its origins in the US civil war.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes -- Memorial Day used to be Decoration Day, the day in late spring to go out and tidy up the graves. It is still a big occasion in American cemeteries. Veterans Day seems to be honoring living military persons, whether retired or active duty. In addition to the freebies on offer there are many full-paged ads in the local paper, saying things like "Thank You For Serving." Clearly targeting live persons and not the deceased.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I couldn't open your second link, QED, but the first one is depressing.
Possible tangent: has anyone come across black poppies this year? Some of our congo started wearing them. They are to point out the numbers of black soldiers who fought and died, but my feeling is that they create further divisions. The red poppy should commemorate *all* who died, and if people don't know about the black regiments then education is needed.
I've only just learned about the black poppy - it remembers the war dead of both sides, includoing civillians.
It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What I mean is, people always do what they have to to get on in life, and people in public life rely on good PR to keep their lucrative jobs. That's not going to change, although the PR advantage of wearing a red poppy may well do so as the culture develops.
Ordinary people don't and shouldn't have to face the same level of scrutiny. They don't have to be people-pleasers.
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers,
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Quiche Eating Dissenter
Apprentice
# 17193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Seriously?! I have heard of employers making employees remove poppies, but never forcing them to be worn. Are we talking about the UK here? I would have thought that one could decline to wear one for religious reasons, which would put the employer in trouble if they then attempted to force the employee to wear a poppy.
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If I don't fit into your theology, the problem is with your theology, not me.
Posts: 7 | From: Republic of Northern England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers,
And shouldn't be.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quiche Eating Dissenter:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Actually, ordinary people who work in customer facing roles can be made to wear red poppies by their employers
Seriously?! I have heard of employers making employees remove poppies, but never forcing them to be worn. Are we talking about the UK here? I would have thought that one could decline to wear one for religious reasons, which would put the employer in trouble if they then attempted to force the employee to wear a poppy.
Yes, we are talking about the UK, have seen this in the bar and restaurant trade, among others.
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Well, all four of us in the office today went along to the Cenotaph for 11 am. One was wearing a poppy, three weren't.
I reckon around half the people at the Cenotaph that I could see were wearing poppies.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.
Source? That's not what the British Legion's website says.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And note what they say: "Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories. It is not compulsory but is greatly appreciated by those it helps – our beneficiaries: those currently serving in our Armed Forces, veterans, and their families and dependants".
So there is no place for Poppy Fascism - it's official!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Interesting ideas expressed......for my part I've always treated Remembrance as a day to remember all those who have died in conflict - to be sure that includes the military but also civilians and for that matter military on the 'other side' many of whom would have been conscripts
Is there a bit of overkill here? ( an unfortunate choice of words I suppose) In the UK we now have two Remembrance Days - the Sunday and the 11th November, not to mention the wearing of poppies from about 2 weeks either side! and I'm not terribly keen on seeing poppies on any kind of vestment or particularly happy about the practice in many churches of draping flags over the altar at civic services......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I agree totally, Stephen. I most certainly dislike the having of two "Silences" on different days ... and deplore even more the practice of including them at football matches etc. during the Remembrance weekend.
I also dislike the BBC covering the Silences as "News" on their bulletins ... they're not news, they happen every year and are - deliberately - full of "nothing"!
[ 12. November 2015, 08:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's all very well for you to say what the red poppy 'should' commemmorate but the fact is that the beritish legion has the patent on red poppies and instsits that they are for British military dead only - not widows, not civillians etc.
Source? That's not what the British Legion's website says.
Yes it does specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces
Thank you for that. It will be useful the next time a poppy fascist objects to the White poppy on the grounds that "the red one covers all that".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
There appears to be a difference between the scope of the poppy and that of the services of rememberance held around the country, including that at the Cenotaph which includes many from armed forces elsewhere in the Commonwealth plus many other bodies that were and are not part of the armed forces, such as the Land Army and the (Boy) Scouts.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes it does specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces
OK, I see where you're coming from, but that's not a page about the significance of the poppy. The page about poppies says: 'Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories.'
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Poppy count at the National War Memorial in Ottawa just over half wore poppies. It was not quite as crowded as last year. There were lots of south asian-origin teenagers & university students, presumably to see the new Defence Minister.
With the thread in mind, I kept my eyes open for a white poppy over the past few days and saw none. Even tattooed hipsters with their legionnaire beards were wearing red poppies.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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