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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I don't want a funeral or any kind of service"
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I wonder how you can purport to remember someone with love and respect when you are doing exactly what they've said they don't want.
M.
just to play devil's advocate... we do things against the wishes of people we love & respect all the time when they're living. We will get a tattoo/ change religions/ choose a career or spouse/ contrary to our parent's wishes all the time, even tho we still claim to "love and respect" our parents. So what is it about "last wishes" that seem to be particularly binding?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I wonder how you can purport to remember someone with love and respect when you are doing exactly what they've said they don't want.
M.
Love and respect doesn't require agreement with every thought and position.
Love and respect should go both directions.
The ones left are the ones still having something to deal with.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them. It's disrespectful to the needs of the living. It's spitting in their faces to say, "when I am gone, I am still going to forbid you from doing what you want. I am going to prevent you from using our society's most common form of seeking closure and insist you do it some other way. Fuck you."
Supposing the deceased had been brought up in a particular religious tradition, suffered at the hands of it, absolutely hated it, but the rest of the family had not had that experience and still firmly believed in it. Suppose that relationships had been strained with some family members because of it.
Suppose also that the deceased had been quite adamant that s/he would not have a funeral from that tradition. And suppose that the family were equally adamant that the deceased had to have it because the person had clearly misinterpreted the tradition during their lifetime/been unreasonable/would go to Hell if they didn't get a proper funeral (i.e. in the family tradition). And that no secular alternative or anything but a funeral in the specified tradition would be acceptable.
Would you still think it selfish of the deceased not to want a funeral?
I didn't say funeral. I said "meet together to remember them." That doesn't have to be a funeral.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
My mother was and is not a religious person. It would be disrespectful to give her a religious funeral, not because she has asked us not to, which she has, but because it would be in some sense denying who she was and chose to be.
I do plan to throw a party and invite all her friends, and if somebody wants to get up and remember something about her, I will not stop them. I will not have any kind of prayer or sermon or other religious trappings, because she did not choose those things while alive.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
I don't want a funeral or any kind of service - but I'm happy if you party, or give something to a charity you support, or remember me in your prayers.
If you ignore my requests I'll never know (or if by chance I do, I won't be cross).
But be loving to my wife and console her if she's still around. That's what's important to me.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
But be loving to my wife and console her if she's still around. That's what's important to me.
This.
And this is why I often find myself providing a religious service for a bereaved Christian when the deceased had no such religious sentiments. We won't pretend the deceased had a faith s/he never professed, and we won't speculate about their eternal destination. But we will come alongside the widow/ widower/ orphaned children to provide love and prayers-- which may or may not happen in the context of a religious service.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This can go too far. I have seen too many homilists claim that they were the only person at the deathbed when the deceased made a last minute decision for Christ. I suspect more than one of these was made up to console the living.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I wonder how you can purport to remember someone with love and respect when you are doing exactly what they've said they don't want.
M.
just to play devil's advocate... we do things against the wishes of people we love & respect all the time when they're living. We will get a tattoo/ change religions/ choose a career or spouse/ contrary to our parent's wishes all the time, even tho we still claim to "love and respect" our parents. So what is it about "last wishes" that seem to be particularly binding?
I think last wishes are particularly binding precisely because the dying person wont be there to catch you out and punish you if you go against them. Particularly if you have promised, or even just implied agreement, then you are on a sort of honor system to keep up your end. Whether the dead person knows if you've kept the promise or not, you know.
I might get a tattoo, even though my mother hates them, but If I had promised my mother to never get one, then that's a different story. Sure, she is probably in a place where she can't know and won't care, but she cared when she made you promise and she trusted you to keep that promise, even after she was unable to see you.
My father cut out his estranged son from his will and made me promise not to give any of the inheritance to him. I stuck by that promise -- for several years, after which the inherited money was well mixed up with our money -- and then I gave my brother a lump because he needed it.
I would not have just gone dead set against my father's wishes. He wanted to make a posthumous point about how much that brother had hurt him and I didn't think it was my place to interfere with that.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This can go too far. I have seen too many homilists claim that they were the only person at the deathbed when the deceased made a last minute decision for Christ. I suspect more than one of these was made up to console the living.
It can. But that's where the commandment on lying comes in.
We've been to any number of Buddhist funerals for Christians (often deathbed baptisms). We just shrug our shoulders and let the family get on with it. Why create friction?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That kind of situation is where I do my best to avoid agreeing to carry out something I have major disagreements with. A will is a special case, particularly when you have no idea what's in it--but when it comes to verbal wishes, I will either say "no" at the time or simply change the subject in a really obvious way. I don't want to fight with someone sick or grieving, but darned if I'm going to un-invite my sibling to a funeral either.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This can go too far. I have seen too many homilists claim that they were the only person at the deathbed when the deceased made a last minute decision for Christ. I suspect more than one of these was made up to console the living.
agreed. But I haven't seen anyone suggest this (and in my post I specifically excluded that)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
just to play devil's advocate... we do things against the wishes of people we love & respect all the time when they're living. We will get a tattoo/ change religions/ choose a career or spouse/ contrary to our parent's wishes all the time, even tho we still claim to "love and respect" our parents. So what is it about "last wishes" that seem to be particularly binding?
When someone's alive the relationship is still fluid and to some extent negotiable, and either of you may change your stance on something, argue about it, talk it over, etc. When they're dead, that last chance has gone. You have no further contact with them, and if you cared about them, then honouring their last wishes is the last thing you can do for them, the last gift you can ever give them. That marks the end of your relationship with them.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
and if you cared about them, then honouring their last wishes is the last thing you can do for them, the last gift you can ever give them.
Rubbish. They are dead. Gone. No longer in existence on this world. Even if they could look back from Heaven, you think in their perfected state they would care that you attend your still living human need?
quote:
That marks the end of your relationship with them.
How is this not the exact opposite of what you are saying above? If death ends the relationship, then you can give no honour or dishonour, they can receive no such gift.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. They are dead. Gone. No longer in existence on this world. Even if they could look back from Heaven, you think in their perfected state they would care that you attend your still living human need?
Yes.
quote:
How is this not the exact opposite of what you are saying above? If death ends the relationship, then you can give no honour or dishonour, they can receive no such gift.
Well, ok, maybe you've never lost anyone you cared about. Grief is not a matter of logic nor is it entirely rational.
I will be marking my mother's birthday later this month. She may be dead, but I'm still going to light a candle and do something she'd have enjoyed in memory of her. Yes, it's stupid, yes, it's irrational, yes, it's ridiculously irrelevant, superfluous and meaningless.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am struggling to see why, from a Christian POV, any service matters at all the the dead person. It can have no benefit, or lack any benefit, to the dead person.
That the living would feel disrespectful is understandable, so a service is to respect their feelings.
Maybe there are some RCs who still believe that having a funeral mass is important for the soul of the dead person?
In general, I think a funeral is important to Christians in the sense that it allows the Christian community to thank God for a life well-lived and for the deceased's influence and presence in our lives. A 'good' funeral is also a sign of respect for the deceased. Jesus was strong on the importance of valuing people.
A funeral also forces the rest of us to face up to the reality of death - something that we find harder and harder to do, even though our religion is death-focused to a certain extent.
Obviously, Christianity doesn't teach that a funeral is necessary for one's salvation. I don't think, though, that a desire to avoid having a funeral has much to do with wanting to rediscover a 'pure' religion, shorn of unnecessary rituals. It's probably more a sign of ambivalence towards the claims of Christianity. Perhaps it reflects a sense that death is nothing but failure; and why would you invite a bunch of people to witness your failure?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But this thread isn't about wanting to have a funeral, it's about wanting to NOT have a funeral.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
That's what we've been talking about, isn't it?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The interesting question for me would be why a Christian would want to forgo a funeral. The anti-funeral friend I mentioned above describes herself as 'Church of England', but never attends services and has little interest in what happens in worship. In her case, I suppose that 'CofE' implies an identity, not a set of public rituals. So a funeral with rituals that she has no cultural or theological stake in would serve no purpose for her.
Does anyone know of actual churchgoers who refuse to have a funeral? What has their reasoning been?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Well, ok, maybe you've never lost anyone you cared about. Grief is not a matter of logic nor is it entirely rational.
I am not denigrating any part of the grief process, just stating that it is for the living and not a bit of it is for the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Maybe there are some RCs who still believe that having a funeral mass is important for the soul of the dead person?
It is inconsistent with the Christian concept of God to think s/he need convincing of the true goodness of the dead. Which is what you say as well:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Obviously, Christianity doesn't teach that a funeral is necessary for one's salvation.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But this thread isn't about wanting to have a funeral, it's about wanting to NOT have a funeral.
ISTM, it is about respecting the dead person's wishes v. serving the living's wants.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them.
You don't need a funeral service in order for people to meet together to remember the dead.
One of my aunts did not want a funeral. When she died the family got together to remember her. When a woman at my church died, her family decided to have the funeral in the place where she had lived for many years before she moved to Blacksburg. Those of us who knew and loved her met in a coffee shop and talked about her. This did bring closure. I would have preferred to attend a funeral service. but this was the family's choice.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's what we've been talking about, isn't it?
The interesting question for me would be why a Christian would want to forgo a funeral. The anti-funeral friend I mentioned above describes herself as 'Church of England', but never attends services and has little interest in what happens in worship. In her case, I suppose that 'CofE' implies an identity, not a set of public rituals. So a funeral with rituals that she has no cultural or theological stake in would serve no purpose for her.
Does anyone know of actual churchgoers who refuse to have a funeral? What has their reasoning been?
Sure, many of my congregants have said something like that. Lots of different reasons: some deplore the expense or the formality, some dislike the somber tone. And I find many laity don't know the difference between a "funeral" and a "memorial" and don't like the idea of their dead body being on display.
In all these cases it has more to do with a very specific idea about what a "funeral" entails so the deceased-to-be is generally open to creative alternatives such as we've discussed here. The more difficult situations are where the deceased is a nonbeliever, possibly hostile to religion, but the bereaved spouse or children are believers who crave the support of their Christian community.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
A friendship or relationship in no wise ceases merely because the person is dead. Lighting candles is a fine thing. So is considering what someone who is no more might think of things. We internalize little bits of others' personalities in our thoughts and feelings. I expect love becomes branded on our neurons such that its scars are never erased. Practiced little interactions, meaningless things really, baked into our brains.
No one sings "what a friend we no longer have in Dead Jesus". (Not that I like the hymn or its other sentiments.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
A friendship or relationship in no wise ceases merely because the person is dead. Lighting candles is a fine thing. So is considering what someone who is no more might think of things. We internalize little bits of others' personalities in our thoughts and feelings. I expect love becomes branded on our neurons such that its scars are never erased. Practiced little interactions, meaningless things really, baked into our brains.
No one sings "what a friend we no longer have in Dead Jesus". (Not that I like the hymn or its other sentiments.)
He sort of rather resurrected. My grandparents, not so much.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them.
You don't need a funeral service in order for people to meet together to remember the dead.
Moo
You may need to go back and read what I have said on this thread if you think that this in any way refutes my point(s).
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But this thread isn't about wanting to have a funeral, it's about wanting to NOT have a funeral.
ISTM, it is about respecting the dead person's wishes v. serving the living's wants.
It is about respecting the dead person's wishes as regards their desire to not have a funeral or other kind of service. We really haven't moved that far from the thread title, except for illustrative purposes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them.
You don't need a funeral service in order for people to meet together to remember the dead.
And that gets us back to the tile of the thread, specifically that "or any kind of service" part. As I said above, I have no problem with the deceased insisting on "no funeral." If you don't want your body laid out for people to gawk at, I support you to the hilt. My mother insisted on a closed-casket "viewing" and we complied. But when the request goes beyond "No funeral" to "not any kind of service" (meaning no memorial service) then I object. The deceased has no right to insist on that. For the reasons stated above. Because I hate repeating myself.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Maybe there are some RCs who still believe that having a funeral mass is important for the soul of the dead person?
It is inconsistent with the Christian concept of God to think s/he need convincing of the true goodness of the dead.
But the idea that God needs to be convinced of the true goodness of the dead is not at all what the RC doctrine of purgatory is about.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But the idea that God needs to be convinced of the true goodness of the dead is not at all what the RC doctrine of purgatory is about.
I'm wasn't addressing Purgatory, but the necessity of prayer for the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But this thread isn't about wanting to have a funeral, it's about wanting to NOT have a funeral.
ISTM, it is about respecting the dead person's wishes v. serving the living's wants.
It is about respecting the dead person's wishes as regards their desire to not have a funeral or other kind of service. We really haven't moved that far from the thread title, except for illustrative purposes.
IMO, that is the same thing, in essence. My arguments regarding whose desires are paramount are the same, regardless.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But the idea that God needs to be convinced of the true goodness of the dead is not at all what the RC doctrine of purgatory is about.
I'm wasn't addressing Purgatory, but the necessity of prayer for the dead.
But in RC understanding, prayers (and Masses) for the dead are directly tied to Purgatory. It is because of Purgatory—or perhaps more accurately, the purgatorial process—that prayers are offered for the dead to start with.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But the idea that God needs to be convinced of the true goodness of the dead is not at all what the RC doctrine of purgatory is about.
I'm wasn't addressing Purgatory, but the necessity of prayer for the dead.
But in RC understanding, prayers (and Masses) for the dead are directly tied to Purgatory. It is because of Purgatory—or perhaps more accurately, the purgatorial process—that prayers are offered for the dead to start with.
OK, I think a Purgatory tangent is food for another thread.
I am saying that it is not consistent with how Christians present God to say the dead need prayer.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am saying that it is not consistent with how Christians present God to say the dead need prayer.
Yes, I get that's what you're saying. But based on what you've posted, you seem to be saying it based on a misunderstanding of why those Christians who do pray for the dead (which is a majority of Christians) do so.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am saying that it is not consistent with how Christians present God to say the dead need prayer.
Yes, I get that's what you're saying. But based on what you've posted, you seem to be saying it based on a misunderstanding of why those Christians who do pray for the dead (which is a majority of Christians) do so.
Is it really true that the majority of Christians pray for the dead? Reformed Christians emphatically do not. I realize Reformed is not the majority, but I didn't think they were the only ones...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Is it really true that the majority of Christians pray for the dead?
Given that the majority of Christians are Catholics, yes, at least in theory.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
This brings back memories of 30 years ago when I was working with the AIDS support group in Boston. In preparing us to advise phone callers they talked about a number of cases where the gay person was dying of AIDS and wanted to be buried without a Christian service in a plot shared with their (then non-legal) partner. The family which hadn't spoken to them in a decade or two wanted to drag the body back to the family town and bury it as a perennial bachelor with homophobic Christian services.
Unfortunately, the law in Massachusetts gives the family the right to dictate how the body is disposed of even if the person had other plans. In several case the lawyers helped make wills that said; if you honor my wishes you get a chunk of cash left to you in my will, if you do otherwise it goes to a gay charity.
It seemed to work but to me it felt like having to buy your corpse back from those who oppressed you all your life.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Palimpsest,
Granted, it isn't going to always be cut and dry. If the family wins, it would not hurt the dead person.
It would have had an effect on her/his friends, certainly a negative for the LGBT+ community, and that would be bad.
Again, that is about the living.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Funerals are for the living, I agree (using this term to include memorials, remembrance meals, whatever). Why do the living want a funeral? To remember the dead person? A rite of passage? To satisfy your own proper desire to mourn their loss?
So why would you want to do any of that in a way they have specifically said they don't want? It just makes no sense to me.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Look at it from the other side. Why would a person set forth conditions on mourning them that didn't respect the people they loved?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My father has said that he doesn't want a full service. No minister, no hymns. He wants 8 named people to gather at the funeral home with the coffin and each of us say something in turn. And that's it.
I have told him that I am deeply unimpressed, and might not attend. My main objection is that in the immediate aftermath of his death someone (and I've told him it won't be me, so presumably my mother) will have to tell various relatives that the funeral is for close family only, and that despite a relationship going back decades, regular phone calls, visits etc they are not close enough to be regarded as close family. I can only imagine the ripples of hurt which this will cause within the wider family. It will probably reduce the amount of family support available to my mother in the early days of widowhood.
If I did go, what would I say to the other seven people? I get on perfectly well with my brother but we are not geographically close and our contact over the last twenty years has been limited. I'm guessing he will lean towards weepily sentimental. I love my father dearly but will probably lean towards humorous anecdote. If it was a room full of people, there would at least be a buffer, a middle ground. As it is I imagine me feeling awkward when my brother spoke, and him feeling awkward when I spoke.
To expand on this: my father is not a man who likes fuss. He didn't having a retirement presentation at his own request, he does not want us to mark his 80th birthday. I can accept that he doesn't want a fussy funeral. He is not a church goer - I can accept that he doesn't want any form of religious service, no minister, no hymns, no readings.
My objection is to his idea that in lieu of a funeral service, eight of us will gather in a small room at the funeral home with the coffin and each of us will say something about him. For that to happen, my mother will have to tell people she loves that they are not to attend, and not to support her. I'm closer to my cousin than my brother (reasons of geography mainly) but my cousin won't be there.
My brother cries at funerals; I don't. I suspect he thinks me cold-hearted; I envy his easy emotion. I have a vision of my brother weeping in one corner with his family, while I reminisce and laugh with my family in another. Mum will be stuck alone between us. Expand the numbers to about 20 (still a small funeral) and everything would be so much easier.
I suspect what I will do, if I am actually faced with this, is to turn up, but keep quiet. Then I'll have a dinner at home and invite all the people I love who would have wanted to attend the funeral and we'll drink a toast, and look at old photos, and laugh and think fondly of him.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Wonders will never cease! For about the first time ever, I agree with SusanDoris!
Thank you for saing, much appreciated. Back in May, Enoch agreed with me too! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I certainly do not want there to be any funeral and my family and friends know this. There will be a few unavoidable expenses - fridge space somewhere and cost of (cheapest) coffin and cremation - but otherwise give money to the young.
In the interests of the OP, let's explore that further...
I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want a religious service. And the notion of not wasting a lot of money on a vessel to hold a decomposing body similarly has a practicality that fits.
To explore it more, though... is it the notion of a typical funeral service you dislike or something broader than that?
Thank you for your post. It’s the latter. A typical funeral service having, as it does, a religious theme of a ‘soul’ going on to some kind of after-life where God might be is something I have never believed, even when still a believer in god, especialy as all objective evidence points to the opposite conclusion. I understand the reasons for this ingrained idea, since our species, knowing it is going to die, has imagined an alternative, perhaps more ‘comforting’, scenario. The distinct advantage of humanist services is that they face up clearly to the fact that when we die, that’s it, the end! Among my friends and contemporaries there is a growing acceptance of this. Quite a few are widows whose husbands had traditional CofE funerals, and they themselves assume their families will do the same for them, but as far as I know not one of, for instance, a group I belong to, really believes they will ‘see their husbands again’. quote:
Would you, for example, object to your friends or loved ones getting together for a simple meal to exchange stories? Or would there be a cause you care about they could contribute (either financially or thru volunteer labor) in your honor?
I would not be able to object, of course!! However, as I have pointed out to my sons, my close friends and siblings do not live around here for a start, they are old too which makes travelling difficult. I’ll do my best to see them as often as I can while we’re all still alive. As far as I know, the suggestion that money would be better going to a charity is becoming more prevalent these days. I would not specify, but I think my friends might donate something towards the NLB, knowing how I value the talking book and braille services provided.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Is it really true that the majority of Christians pray for the dead?
Given that the majority of Christians are Catholics, yes, at least in theory.
Yes, that's where I was coming from with "majority." Add in the Orthodox and (many) Anglicans. (If I recall correctly, Luther and Wesley both approved of the practice, though I can't say the extent to which it is practiced among Lutherans or Methodists.)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
IME as a Methodist, British Methodism doesn't (officially) offer prayers for the dead, beyond the funeral celebrant asking God to accept the deceased into his care. I don't do it myself.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
In my opinion, if that is what the person has stated that iswhat s/he wants, it would be disrespectful
Why? How? Especially from your philosophy, the person no longer exists at all. You cannot disrespect something that no longer exists. What you disrespect is the still living people who cared for the deceased when they were still alive.
If I had been asked to deal with the formalities etc when a person, A, died, and A had made it clear that s/he did not want a funeral, then if I did not do as A had asked, I would not be acting with respect to A. If others around him/her said that I should go against A’s wishes, they would be the ones showing a lack of respect to A. quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I recall extremely well the funerals of loved ones. There's a sense I derive of something transcendent. Do atheists do transcendence? Things bigger than the self? I know they do yoga. Perhaps a yoga funeral.
All human beings have a huge variety of experiences during their lives, all of which involve the brain and its abilities. An experience which those who believe there are spirits or something outside of the human imagination might call transcendant; atheists would know were part of the superbly adaptable brains we have and appreciate them as such.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
I pray for people I love (and for some of those I don't). Why should I stop doing so just because they are dead, and so beyond our time?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Mass for the Dead is not necessarily the same as a funeral Mass.
For Catholics both the living and the dead can be enclosed in our circles of prayer. In a sense the living do not need our prayers as God is always present, nor in a sense do the dead ,but we pray for both the living and the dead to remind God that we care about them. Even then he doesn't really need reminding, but we need reminding that we should remember others before God.
Purgatory is just a name which is given to a state, rather really than a place, just as Heaven is more a state than a place.
'To our departed brothers and sisters and to all who were pleasing to you at their passing from this life, give kind admittance to your kingdom.
There we (also) hope to enjoy for ever the fullness of your glory.' is one of the prayers for the dead in the Roman Mass.
This is an example of a prayer which a Christian could say at any time. It does not have to be at a funeral.
It is not unknown in Catholic parishes for no public (funeral)Mass to be offered for a deceased person as the relatives do not wish this to happen or would feel uncomfortable in being present. It does not stop devout Christians from praying for the deceased and also in believing that their prayers can only bring about good for both the living and the dead.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I personally think the wish for no funeral should be observed if that's what the person wished for. I would have no option to follow their wishes if I were executing their Will, because it's a legal document. So surely there is still a moral obligation - moreso, even? - to follow someone's wishes even though not framed legally? And if I gave this out as my wish, I really would hope my loved ones (should there be any by then) would respect me enough to respect my final wishes.
I really don't think it's good enough to say 'we can ignore that particular request because Fanny-Anne is dead'. It mattered to her, and whether we agree or not, it should matter to us; even if it requires us to struggle with alternative forms of memorialising her.
However. Having brought up the subject of the Will, that analogy in itself could be said to challenge what I've said above, in this respect. The legally enforceable Will disposes -hopefully with clarity and without contest - of the possessions of the deceased, as being theirs to do with as they pleased even now that they are dead.
Whereas it could be argued that the deceased has less of a right to say how others should now inherit the grief of their loss, in forbidding them a place to grieve in a formal, public safe space. That is, how the deceased is memorialized, or said farewell to is not solely a 'possession' of the deceased to be disposed of, but the living experience of those left behind who have needs to be fulfilled so that they may grieve healthily.
The support of 'presence' that such a service (religious or not) provides for mourners is not to be underestimated.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
To explore it more, though... is it the notion of a typical funeral service you dislike or something broader than that?
Thank you for your post. It’s the latter. A typical funeral service having, as it does, a religious theme of a ‘soul’ going on to some kind of after-life where God might be is something I have never believed, even when still a believer in god, especialy as all objective evidence points to the opposite conclusion. [/QB][/QUOTE]
That's a typical funeral, perhaps. Why not ask for an atypical funeral? I don't suppose V.I. Lenin's funeral had a lot of God-talk. The Soviet Union being officially atheist and all that. Yet he had an official state funeral.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
If I had been asked to deal with the formalities etc when a person, A, died, and A had made it clear that s/he did not want a funeral, then if I did not do as A had asked, I would not be acting with respect to A. If others around him/her said that I should go against A’s wishes, they would be the ones showing a lack of respect to A.
You are merely stating your position, you are not explaining it.
A is dead and cannot be disrespected. What you are potentially disrespecting is your memory of and feelings towards them. And those of the other people who knew and cared for A.
A was disrespecting her/his loved ones when setting forth conditions which would not account for how they feel.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
If I had been asked to deal with the formalities etc when a person, A, died, and A had made it clear that s/he did not want a funeral, then if I did not do as A had asked, I would not be acting with respect to A. If others around him/her said that I should go against A’s wishes, they would be the ones showing a lack of respect to A.
You are merely stating your position, you are not explaining it.
I think I will have to ask you to say why I have not explained it. I think my position is based on the fact that I would do what I hope others would do were the positions reversed, and I think this position is based on basic, good morals. quote:
A is dead and cannot be disrespected.
Ttrue, A cannot know if anyone is showing a lack of respect towards him/her or his/her wishes.
quote:
What you are potentially disrespecting is your memory of and feelings towards them. And those of the other people who knew and cared for A.
A was disrespecting her/his loved ones when setting forth conditions which would not account for how they feel.
Hmmmm, thank you, and apologies, but I don’t think I’ll try and untangle that!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
........A was disrespecting her/his loved ones when setting forth conditions which would not account for how they feel.
That's how I view it.
The only circumstances where someone could be justified in catagorically ruling out any formal gathering after her or his death would be if they knew for a fact there would be sharp discord between the next of kin following their demise.
Therefore setting out such a final request could be seen as not so much selfish, but an action to protect others.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I think I will have to ask you to say why I have not explained it. I think my position is based on the fact that I would do what I hope others would do were the positions reversed, and I think this position is based on basic, good morals.
You have not explained why it matters to a person who no longer exists and why treating their wishes is a better moral choice than dealing with people who still do.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
lilBuddha
Thank you - back tomorrow.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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