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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I don't want a funeral or any kind of service"
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm just trying to visualize how this works with regard to the parish registers that the LDS Church put onto their website. I suppose they must do it in batches. Otherwise I could see if the Mormon volunteer is dunked for each person to be baptized in turn, it could make for a very wet day.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
They're done in the Temple not the local wards that are open to visitors so we'll never know. But since access to a LDS Temple can be limited even for faithful Mormons by either the "bishop recommend" or geography I imagine they are lumped together for convenience. My guess is that the Mormon surrogate enters the water but once but then is dunked under once for each vicarious baptism
It's perhaps worth noting that the baptisms aren't done in the context of a service, either. They're simply part of the ordinance work that goes on in a temple. So, a faithfully Mormon with a Temple Recommend and a free day might decide to spend the day at the temple doing ordinance work. On arrival, they'd go into what amounts to a really white locker room* to change into temple clothes (also all-white) and then present themselves to the person overseeing baptisms by proxy. (A picture of temple rooms here.) If they had specific dead relatives or friends to be baptized for, then they may do those. Otherwise, they'll work from a register maintained by the Church.
* I've actually been in the local temple when it was open to the public, before dedication, and seen the locker room, as well as the ordinance and sealing rooms and the Celestial Room. What I've described in terms of procedure is based on what we were told on the tour.
[ 09. August 2016, 22:35: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Even when there is a body/grave, the baptisms are done vicariously-- the Mormon friend/relative is the one getting dunked. So the presence or absence of the body is irrelevant.
I'm just trying to visualize how this works with regard to the parish registers that the LDS Church put onto their website. I suppose they must do it in batches. Otherwise I could see if the Mormon volunteer is dunked for each person to be baptized in turn, it could make for a very wet day.
An informative link about this.
It looks like you line up, wait your turn to get into the baptismal pool, then get dunked as many times as you have people to be proxy-baptised for, and then go dry off. 10 to 20 proxy-baptisms per person, per day.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, if there's disrespect, somebody has to be offended by it (presumably, or why would it be an issue?).
Are we, or are we not, followers of the "committed adultery with her in your heart" guy?
Quite apart from anyone feeling offense, I'd say one of the biggest issues with disrespecting someone is what enacting that disrespect does to your own character.
(I don't personally have a problem with ignoring some funeral requests, FTR, or consider that necessarily disrespectful.)
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Are we, or are we not, followers of the "committed adultery with her in your heart" guy?
Jimmy Carter???
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Are we, or are we not, followers of the "committed adultery with her in your heart" guy?
Jimmy Carter???
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Are we, or are we not, followers of the "committed adultery with her in your heart" guy?
Jimmy Carter???
(ETA: Oops. Seem to have tied with Mousethief...)
[ 10. August 2016, 06:09: Message edited by: St Deird ]
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
My opinion of it is that disrespecting someone has nothing to do with whether the person knows or is offended. In fact, possibly it's more important not to disrespect someone who doesn't know, as they cannot defend themselves.
I don't think it's anything to do with being a Christian, either.
We obviously have quite different views on this.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
So, are you of a certain philosopher's family or do you come with your own source code?
I tried to pm rather than have a tangent on the thread, but your PM box is full, Martin. I'm neither philosopher nor computer programme, but a
woman from north-east Scotland. Technically I'm more of an aul wifie but this is the interwebs; I might be young and fair of face for all you know.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks for all replies. I have realised that this isn't actually my problem. Dad knows I won't be making any of the awkward "you're not invited" phone calls. If Mum isn't happy, it's up to her to sort it out. I will go along with Dad's wishes, without actively facilitating them. At least Dad has said, so I know what to expect. Hopefully, the eight-people-in-a-room-with-the-coffin is still many years in the future.
This has been worrying me, so I'm very grateful to no prophet for starting the thread.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Are we, or are we not, followers of the "committed adultery with her in your heart" guy?
Committing sins in your heart is not about the people you don't actually commit sins against, it is about you.
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
My opinion of it is that disrespecting someone has nothing to do with whether the person knows or is offended. In fact, possibly it's more important not to disrespect someone who doesn't know, as they cannot defend themselves.
Again you miss the point. They have no need to defend themselves because they do not exist. At least not in any way that matters to respect. They are beyond any worldly considerations.
If you have a belief system that says they do, I am not speaking to that. I assumed you are Christian.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
Are you then, dishonoring their memory if you get a tattoo/ change religions/ choose a spouse or career contrary to their wishes? Why is the funeral the sole repository of our respect/disrespect?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
That memory isn't the dead person's, it is yours.
If the people that loved the person feel the need to gather in memory, then honouring them is exactly what they are doing.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
Are you then, dishonoring their memory if you get a tattoo/ change religions/ choose a spouse or career contrary to their wishes? Why is the funeral the sole repository of our respect/disrespect?
Because a tattoo etc would be be about me, the funeral or lack of it is about them.
If one of my relatives has expressly asked to have no funeral or service I would feel very bad, and sad if I didn't comply with their wishes, if possible. It's about love, I think. We loved them. And want the last thing we do for them to be as close as possible to what they wanted.
Like I said earlier, there are other ways of honouring their memory. Hold a fundraiser for their favourite charity, plant a tree, have a bench erected etc.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
That memory isn't the dead person's, it is yours.
If the people that loved the person feel the need to gather in memory, then honouring them is exactly what they are doing.
And remember that this was exactly what they didn't want?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, if there's disrespect, somebody has to be offended by it (presumably, or why would it be an issue?).
Are we, or are we not, followers of the "committed adultery with her in your heart" guy?
I certainly am. On the other hand, though, SusanDoris is not (as she never tires of reminding us). So my question was meant to clarify her objection on the grounds of disrespect to the dead : specifically, whether it actually had any moral foundation or whether it was just the usual knee-jerk reaction to anything that might have religious content.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
Are you then, dishonoring their memory if you get a tattoo/ change religions/ choose a spouse or career contrary to their wishes? Why is the funeral the sole repository of our respect/disrespect?
Because a tattoo etc would be be about me, the funeral or lack of it is about them.
Arguable. I and others here are arguing that the funeral isn't really about them-- it's about comforting & supporting the bereaved.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If one of my relatives has expressly asked to have no funeral or service I would feel very bad, and sad if I didn't comply with their wishes, if possible. It's about love, I think. We loved them. And want the last thing we do for them to be as close as possible to what they wanted.
But again, why is that different from disobeying their wishes about tattoos/religion/spouse/career? If you love them, would you not want to what they wish?
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Like I said earlier, there are other ways of honouring their memory. Hold a fundraiser for their favourite charity, plant a tree, have a bench erected etc.
If you reread the thread, you'll see that these are all options that have already been suggested (by me, as well as others) as viable alternatives for those who object to traditional and/or religious services. But the question is what to do with those who specify NO remembrance of any kind.
[ 10. August 2016, 16:09: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Their memory exists and that's what matters imo.
That memory isn't the dead person's, it is yours.
If the people that loved the person feel the need to gather in memory, then honouring them is exactly what they are doing.
And remember that this was exactly what they didn't want?
Then what they wanted is insufferably selfish. How dare they tell other people how to assuage their sorrow? Was the deceased this much of a control freak in life?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
lilBuddha, I don't think I am missing the point. I know you're saying that the person no longer exists and I don't think that makes any difference. It is still disrespectful.
We obviously disagree on this.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then what they wanted is insufferably selfish. How dare they tell other people how to assuage their sorrow? Was the deceased this much of a control freak in life?
I opted for cremation a long time ago with the proviso that my ashes should be scattered, preferably from a hilltop on a windy day. I did this because I absolutely did not want a fixed spot in a cemetery where people could come and be miserable. I wanted them to feel that I was liberated into the atmosphere, dispersed, could be in a lot of different places, was at one with the earth, nature, etc etc.
Things have changed since the death of my last close relation. I'll still be cremated, but the ashes can be sprinkled on my mother's grave instead. The wind and rain will see to it that they don't linger. There will be no close family to mourn me, anyway.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I did this because I absolutely did not want a fixed spot in a cemetery where people could come and be miserable.
I absolutely think you get to say what happens to your remains. But why do you think people who visit a grave in a cemetery (or a niche in a columbarium) would be miserable?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But why do you think people who visit a grave in a cemetery (or a niche in a columbarium) would be miserable?
I haven't noticed many people rejoicing and looking happy at the sight of a grave, but YMMV. We probably ought to rejoice that someone is dead and free from pain, the travails and ills and sorrows of this world and all that, but for some unfathomable reason, it often doesn't seem to work out like that.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, if there's disrespect, somebody has to be offended by it (presumably, or why would it be an issue?).
Offending someone when they're alive, and disrespecting their wishes after they're dead are two very separate and different things. A dead parent may, in life, have expressed a wish to her surviving child that that child follow a certain course of action. If the child chooses not to do that, s/he's disrespecting those wishes. Perhaps nobody is offended - obviously not the deceased - but clearly non-observence of the expressed wish is dis-respect.
Whether it is to be seen as disrespecting a person (albeit a dead person) or merely their wishes is maybe another question. Though I think it can be argued that the dead - or their memory - can certainly be treated with disrespect, even though they are unlikely to have suffered the least offence from it.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
lilBuddha, I don't think I am missing the point. I know you're saying that the person no longer exists and I don't think that makes any difference. It is still disrespectful.
We obviously disagree on this.
M.
WHat I am going to write is not intended to be dismissive or disrespectful, but I am trying to understand the rationale behind your POV.
To me, it does not appear to be rational or logical.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WHat I am going to write is not intended to be dismissive or disrespectful, but I am trying to understand the rationale behind your POV.
To me, it does not appear to be rational or logical.
If, in the privacy of my bathroom, I defecate on the US flag, I am being disrespectful of it. If nobody finds out, it doesn't make it less disrespectful.
Because it's about what I feel and what I'm doing - it's not about how the flag feels.
If I defecate on the US flag, and then publicly display the evidence, my disrespect is likely to cause widespread offence.
Because the offence is all about how my American neighbours feel about their flag.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WHat I am going to write is not intended to be dismissive or disrespectful, but I am trying to understand the rationale behind your POV.
To me, it does not appear to be rational or logical.
If, in the privacy of my bathroom, I defecate on the US flag, I am being disrespectful of it. If nobody finds out, it doesn't make it less disrespectful.
Because it's about what I feel and what I'm doing - it's not about how the flag feels.
If I defecate on the US flag, and then publicly display the evidence, my disrespect is likely to cause widespread offence.
Because the offence is all about how my American neighbours feel about their flag.
You are not disagreeing with me. Are you thinking you are?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You are not disagreeing with me. Are you thinking you are?
As far as I can see, nobody is actually disagreeing with anyone. You and M. seem to me to be saying more or less the same things whilst saying that you don't understand the other's POV.
So I was hoping that someone would disagree with what I said, so I could find the place where the two of you differ in substance.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You are not disagreeing with me. Are you thinking you are?
As far as I can see, nobody is actually disagreeing with anyone. You and M. seem to me to be saying more or less the same things whilst saying that you don't understand the other's POV.
So I was hoping that someone would disagree with what I said, so I could find the place where the two of you differ in substance.
Rereading it, I actually do disagree with you a little.
When you say this:
quote:
If, in the privacy of my bathroom, I defecate on the US flag, I am being disrespectful of it.
You are never being disrespectful of the flag, but of living people of particular ideology.
That is just reiterating my basic point about dead people, though.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But why do you think people who visit a grave in a cemetery (or a niche in a columbarium) would be miserable?
I haven't noticed many people rejoicing and looking happy at the sight of a grave, but YMMV.
It does, I think. I guess I rarely see rejoicing as such. But similarly I rarely see people who are miserable, except perhaps soon after the time of the death of someone who died too young. Frankly, I love cemeteries—older ones, at least. (The newer ones, with all identical markers, flat to the ground are too sterile for my taste.) For me cemeteries are places of peace, comfort and connection. I'm glad to have a chance to visit my parents' graves, where they're surrounded by grandparents, great-grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. I like making sure they're well-tended, or placing seasonal flowers there. It's a sacred place for me, and a tangible reminder of the communion of saints.
But consider the source for me, I guess. I grew up going to a church surrounded by a cemetery. (One block away was another church surrounded by one of the most beautiful churchyard cemeteries around.) My mother's instructions were that family and friends were to gather at the grave to bury her, and then we were to go to the church for a service of thanksgiving and witness to the resurrection. (This is the pattern in our family.) She was also clear that brightly colored clothing was to be encouraged. We sang "Joy to the World" at her memorial service.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But why do you think people who visit a grave in a cemetery (or a niche in a columbarium) would be miserable?
I haven't noticed many people rejoicing and looking happy at the sight of a grave, but YMMV. We probably ought to rejoice that someone is dead and free from pain, the travails and ills and sorrows of this world and all that, but for some unfathomable reason, it often doesn't seem to work out like that.
As Tolkien said, "Not all tears are an evil." Every year my daughter and I visit the graves of our ancestors and the place where we scattered the ashes of her siblings. We don't go there to be jubilant. But there's more to life than being jubilant. It is very shallow to think that the only reason one might do something is that it makes one happy. One can do something not because it feels good, but because it feels right.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
It's not the funeral that's making people sad, it's the loss. And they'll feel just as sad, just as bereaved, if there is no funeral. What they will have, if they do have a funeral (or some sort of gathering) is the comfort of having friends and family come around them, and, if they are believers, the comfort of hearing prayers and words of Scripture.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
As Tolkien said, "Not all tears are an evil." Every year my daughter and I visit the graves of our ancestors and the place where we scattered the ashes of her siblings. We don't go there to be jubilant. But there's more to life than being jubilant. It is very shallow to think that the only reason one might do something is that it makes one happy. One can do something not because it feels good, but because it feels right.
Indeed, and for me at least, that feeling of rightness feels good, not in the sense of making me happy but in the sense of shalom. God is found there.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Indeed, and for me at least, that feeling of rightness feels good, not in the sense of making me happy but in the sense of shalom. God is found there.
I can go with that. This is of course in contrast to what was said above,
quote:
a fixed spot in a cemetery where people could come and be miserable.
I might add that if you don't give people a fixed spot to come and mourn, they will MAKE one. Witness the shrines at the side of the road that appear when someone is killed in a road accident. And these aren't created just once and left to rot. People come regularly to replace flowers, teddy bears, etc.
People seem to NEED a fixed place. Not all people, perhaps. But the flowers on graves one sees on Memorial Day show it's not just my daughter and me.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
We sang "Joy to the World" at her memorial service.
Please tell me it was the one about the bullfrog?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
We sang "Joy to the World" at her memorial service.
Please tell me it was the one about the bullfrog?
Ha! No, I'm afraid (though I can remember her humming it).
My mother loved Christmas, and anyone who knew her knew that. When she died and we were meeting with the minister about the service, we got to talking about her love of Christmas. We decided that "Joy to the World," which is based on part of Psalm 98, would work just fine for her February funeral. She would have loved the joy of it, and the third verse in particular ("no more let sins and sorrow grow") seemed appropos.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I might add that if you don't give people a fixed spot to come and mourn, they will MAKE one. Witness the shrines at the side of the road that appear when someone is killed in a road accident. And these aren't created just once and left to rot. People come regularly to replace flowers, teddy bears, etc.
People seem to NEED a fixed place. Not all people, perhaps. But the flowers on graves one sees on Memorial Day show it's not just my daughter and me.
Hence the reason my husband and I each plan to be cremated, and have our ashes scattered somewhere significant to us.
I still remember the day we scattered my grandfather's ashes, several months after his funeral. It was solemn in parts, but also festive and picnicky. It meant our last bit of farewell to him was pleasant, which I've always valued.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
People seem to NEED a fixed place. Not all people, perhaps. But the flowers on graves one sees on Memorial Day show it's not just my daughter and me.
The more mobile we get, the harder this gets. I can identify fixed spots where all the relatives I have known are buried / had ashes spread / are commemorated. They're all in different parts of the UK. I could spend a day on a plane, and then a week or so driving from spot to spot, but I'd just feel tired and frazzled.
It would be lovely to go and walk in my grandmother's favourite place to remember her, and perhaps to stop and sit for a while on the bench with her name on, but it's not very practical as the bench is 4000 miles away.
So instead we remember her when we do things she would have enjoyed, or when we use things that she used to own.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's a huge leap from "it's hard for me to reach my mom's grave" to "my mom shouldn't have a grave at all."
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's a huge leap from "it's hard for me to reach my mom's grave" to "my mom shouldn't have a grave at all."
Is there a functional difference between a grave you can't visit and not a grave? I don't think so.
Usually, of course, somebody can visit it - there are probably relatively local friends and relatives too - but if nobody's going to visit it, what is the grave for?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's a huge leap from "it's hard for me to reach my mom's grave" to "my mom shouldn't have a grave at all."
Is there a functional difference between a grave you can't visit and not a grave? I don't think so.
Usually, of course, somebody can visit it - there are probably relatively local friends and relatives too - but if nobody's going to visit it, what is the grave for?
How do you know nobody is going to visit it? It's not like it's in the Punjab or something. Hell, even if nobody now living can be arsed to go there, your great great great great grandchildren may want to visit. Or future historians may wish to study when all our ridiculous electronic records are gone.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
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# 953
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Posted
I might also add, why does the difference have to be functional? Could not graves have meaning beyond the merely utilitarian?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
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Posted
Nope, lilBuddha, I can't see we're saying the same thing. I don't get (I believe I understand what you're saying intellectually) why you say you can't be disrespectful of someone who no longer exists.
It makes no sense to me. Of course you can.
Is it the cessation of existence that makes the difference or the not knowing? Would It be OK to go behind someone's back, say, if they never knew about it?
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
For those who are saying that it doesn't matter what the dead wanted, do you also feel that it's fine, as far as legally possible, to ignore their wishes for the disposal of their estate and possessions? They're dead now so we can ignore their will...
All of those who discount the wishes stated by the now dead are ignoring the fact that the wishes were made when the person was alive, and they may have taken comfort in knowing that what they wanted was going to happen. I've known a number of people who hated the religion they were raised in because of its homophobia and did not want to be a figurine in some diorama made by family they disliked which would exclude the partner and friends they cared about.
[ 11. August 2016, 07:11: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ariel
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# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Usually, of course, somebody can visit it - there are probably relatively local friends and relatives too - but if nobody's going to visit it, what is the grave for?
A dead person has to be put somewhere, which is what the grave is for.
I won't be visiting my mother's grave much (it's in a different country, for a start). But it was very important to her that she should be buried in the same cemetery with her parents and grandparents. It was a provision of her will. We'd talked about it when she was alive and I'd promised her that I'd see that her wishes were fulfilled. If I make a promise I keep it, as far as possible.
Of course, if it hadn't been in her will I suppose I could have arranged for her to be cremated and interred locally but the emotional cost would have been something else. I couldn't have done that and felt comfortable about it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Complying with someone's wishes is different - imo - if the wishes are for themselves (or, when dead, their funeral).
If my Mum asked to be taken to visit a place she wanted to see I would comply with her wishes as much as I possibly could, out of love and respect for her.
If she asked me to visit that place because she thought I ought, but I wasn't interested I'd either say 'no thanks' or 'maybe one day'.
The same with funerals, people are not being controlling when they give their wishes for the own funerals, or non-funerals.
We comply with their wishes out of love and respect - and because we know that we'd feel bad if we didn't. Of course, if their request is financially or otherwise impossible then that's a different story.
If it's discussed while they are still alive then negotiation is always possible as in the example above of the Dad who stipulated eight people only - he can be asked to do all the informing and discussion about it, to make things less awkward for everyone else.
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Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Nope, lilBuddha, I can't see we're saying the same thing.
I do not believe I said we were.
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I don't get (I believe I understand what you're saying intellectually) why you say you can't be disrespectful of someone who no longer exists.
Same way one disrespect Father Christmas.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
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# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The same with funerals, people are not being controlling when they give their wishes for the own funerals, or non-funerals.
Please explain how it is not controlling to say "Do this and not that." You are precisely seeking to control someone else's actions.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Making a request or a wish could be 'controlling' if it were combined with some kind of force or emotional blackmail.
But requests and wishes for what happens after we die are so common they couldn't, surely be dubbed 'controlling' except in exceptional circumstances.
There is absolutely no legal requirement to hold a funeral ceremony. You are completely free to recognise a death with the minimum of fuss, or to hold whatever form of farewell the person asked for. Whether you do so depends, I suppose, on your relationship with them and how much you care about their wishes - and if you don't agree with them - their wishes over your own.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Same way one disrespect Father Christmas.
He doesn't no longer exist. He never existed in the first place. Which is a bit different from someone who was a living human being to someone who has ceased to live.
You really don't believe in life after death do you? That's the only way I can interpret your posts on this subject.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Same way one disrespect Father Christmas.
He doesn't no longer exist. He never existed in the first place. Which is a bit different from someone who was a living human being to someone who has ceased to live.
You really don't believe in life after death do you? That's the only way I can interpret your posts on this subject.
I am arguing from to POV.
One is that a person ceases to exist and the other, which IMO includes Christianity, that whatever constitutes the afterlife has no more connection to the still living. And, even did it, the dead are not in a state where the living's opinion would matter.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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