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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How could the Pro-life movement have wider appeal?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I always think that killing babies is a very useful displacement from controlling women's bodies. That is not a great slogan really, yet that's what it involves. Hence the recent popularity, I guess, of the bodily autonomy argument for abortion.
What exactly are you saying here? The message gets garbled by the snark, or something.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I always think that killing babies is a very useful displacement from controlling women's bodies. That is not a great slogan really, yet that's what it involves. Hence the recent popularity, I guess, of the bodily autonomy argument for abortion.
What exactly are you saying here? The message gets garbled by the snark, or something.
Yes, I think my last sentence didn't quite connect. I was trying to say that the pro-life movement fundamentally wants to control women's bodies and women's sexuality, but dare not go public with that, so 'stop murdering babies' is a much better slogan.
But feminists (and others) have sussed out the control aspect, and one response to that has been the bodily autonomy argument, that I get to control my body, not the government.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Penny S: quote:
Doesn't make her right, either.
She wants to extend her version of sharia to everywhere, and, with no surprise, like all of those sorts of rule based ways of organising societies, adult women go down to the bottom of the heap.
Didn't say I agreed with her. I was just pointing out that thinking someone is a nasty piece of work is not a valid reason for disagreeing with them. What you and Mousethief and Brenda said about this woman's point of view... those are valid reasons for disagreeing with her.
Looking at it another way, the fact that the housemates were nice people who were upset about invading their friend's privacy, rummaging through her dustbin and reporting her to the police does not mean they were right.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Penny S: quote:
Doesn't make her right, either.
She wants to extend her version of sharia to everywhere, and, with no surprise, like all of those sorts of rule based ways of organising societies, adult women go down to the bottom of the heap.
Didn't say I agreed with her. I was just pointing out that thinking someone is a nasty piece of work is not a valid reason for disagreeing with them. What you and Mousethief and Brenda said about this woman's point of view... those are valid reasons for disagreeing with her.
Looking at it another way, the fact that the housemates were nice people who were upset about invading their friend's privacy, rummaging through her dustbin and reporting her to the police does not mean they were right.
Ah, I was rather lumping together her opinions and her means of expressing them together in my description of her being fiercely unpleasant.
I've now been trying to think of a case of someone expressing views I would think of neutrally in an unpleasant way. Or that I would agree with. For other reasons I've been thinking of the first vegan I came across, who was fiercely offensive, and rendered sensible discussion of his views impossible. Though not necessarily right. So he won't do. Tricky. And worth bearing in mind when coming across contentious issues. Good point.
I may have to listen to the Brexit arguments more carefully.
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Luke
Soli Deo Gloria
# 306
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I think my last sentence didn't quite connect. I was trying to say that the pro-life movement fundamentally wants to control women's bodies and women's sexuality, but dare not go public with that, so 'stop murdering babies' is a much better slogan.
Oh no, you discovered the secret of the pro-life movement, Sharia Law in disguise! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Emily's Voice
Posts: 822 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I think my last sentence didn't quite connect. I was trying to say that the pro-life movement fundamentally wants to control women's bodies and women's sexuality, but dare not go public with that, so 'stop murdering babies' is a much better slogan.
Oh no, you discovered the secret of the pro-life movement, Sharia Law in disguise!
You roll your eyes, but if the pro-life movement doesn't want to come across like that, it needs to clean up its fucking act.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is also the logical conclusion. No other theory accounts for the movement's irrational opposition to birth control, or feminism. Do we believe what is said, or what we see?
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Given that organizations like the American Family Association openly embrace Dominionism (the notion that Christians should work to create totalitarian Christian theocracies) the comparison to Sharia is not one that can be eye-rolled away. For the record, the AFA was able to collect US$18.9 million from various supporters to further its cause in the 2012-2013 fiscal year (the last year for which I could find records), so it's kind of hard to dismiss them as a fringe group. They are also not the only pro-life* organization pushing this agenda.
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*Offer expires at birth
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
And then there's this:
quote:
An Oklahoma bill that could revoke the license of any doctor who performs an abortion has headed to the governor, with opponents saying the measure in unconstitutional and promising a legal battle against the cash-strapped state if it is approved.
<snip>
Under the bill, doctors who perform abortions would risk losing their medical licenses. Exemptions would be given for those who perform the procedure for reasons including protecting the mother or removing a miscarried fetus.
<snip>
Supporters of the bill said it will help protect the sanctity of life.
"If we take care of morality,” bill supporter David Brumbaugh, a Republican, said during deliberations, "God will take care of the economy."
Maybe it's just me, but legislatures striking "deals" with the Almighty to fix the economy in exchange for enforcing a code of morality (the burden of which will predominantly be borne by people who aren't in the legislature) sounds a little Sharia-esqe.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
Oh no, you discovered the secret of the pro-life movement, Sharia Law in disguise! [Roll Eyes]
Basically, yes.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It also sounds alien to Christianity. This is the Prosperity gospel, not the one that Jesus was preaching.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe it's just me, but legislatures striking "deals" with the Almighty to fix the economy in exchange for enforcing a code of morality (the burden of which will predominantly be borne by people who aren't in the legislature) sounds a little Sharia-esqe.
Delusional. Diagnosable.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
If a doctor had their license revoked in a state determined to bring Margaret Atwood's Gilead into being for reasons which other states did not espouse, could they have a new license issued in another state? Or country?
[ 26. April 2016, 19:23: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If a doctor had their license revoked in a state determined to bring Margaret Atwood's Gilead into being for reasons which other states did not espouse, could they have a new license issued in another state? Or country?
Only if they moved their practice there. You have to be licensed to practice medicine by whatever government has jurisdiction where you're practicing.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What it does sound like is a great way to ensure that your polity has a shortage of doctors.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If a doctor had their license revoked in a state determined to bring Margaret Atwood's Gilead into being for reasons which other states did not espouse, could they have a new license issued in another state? Or country?
Only if they moved their practice there. You have to be licensed to practice medicine by whatever government has jurisdiction where you're practicing.
Well, that's what I was getting at. Sorry for not being exhaustively clear.
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Luke
Soli Deo Gloria
# 306
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It also sounds alien to Christianity. This is the Prosperity gospel, not the one that Jesus was preaching.
In a sense the pro-abortion movement is an extension of the Prosperity gospel; 'babies are a barrier to a woman's prosperity.'
One thing the pro-life movement should do better is provide more practical support (nappies, counselling, vouchers, training etc) for poor women who are pregnant. We're working on this in my local town.
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Emily's Voice
Posts: 822 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It also sounds alien to Christianity. This is the Prosperity gospel, not the one that Jesus was preaching.
In a sense the pro-abortion movement is an extension of the Prosperity gospel; 'babies are a barrier to a woman's prosperity.'
1. There is no pro-abortion movement.
2. The way our society is currently set up, babies ARE a barrier to a woman's prosperity. And the anti-abortion forces at least in the USA are cheerleaders for the economic policies that make this so.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
If you don't want women to have abortions, encourage them to avoid unwittingly getting pregnant. Condoms by the boxcar load should do it.
If you want them to have babies, then that is a slightly different thing, you must agree. Which is it you really want?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
How about just stop telling people what to do?
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
How about just stop telling people what to do?
It'll never sell. Not with the right wingnuts who run the anti-abortion rhetoric mill in this country.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It'll never sell. Not with the right wingnuts who run the anti-abortion rhetoric mill in this country.
Just heard on CBC Radio1 "Do not go genital into that good night." ....sex is just wrong, bad and wrong with some wingnutbars. Keep your legs together and rage rage rage against everything.
[ 29. April 2016, 01:36: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's always a good night when I get to go genital. I rage against "dying" in the light. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 29. April 2016, 02:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
How about just stop telling people what to do?
It'll never sell. Not with the right wing nuts who run the anti-abortion rhetoric mill in this country.
Glad that you include the last 3 words. The connection between politics and anti-abortion that seems to be in the US certainly does not exist here - nor, I suspect, in the UK or other European countries.
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Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It does exist in the UK. In Northern Ireland, where women do not have the rights they have in England, Scotland or Wales. Both versions of Christianity in the province hold the same beliefs. Of other European countries, the Republic of Ireland and Poland spring to mind, where the politics is driven by Catholicism.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
But not the hard right nutterdom written about int the US?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But not the hard right nutterdom written about int the US?
Penny said it does exist in the UK. She didn't say it doesn't exist in the US, nor can that be inferred from what she did say.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Nor did I say that the connection did not exist in the US. What I was questioning was whether the link existed in the UK .
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Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I guess I am confused, then, as to what you meant by this question, which seems to be implying that one of us has said it DOESN'T exist in the U.S. hard right.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But not the hard right nutterdom written about int the US?
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
When women die, or are forced to carry to term dead babies, and this situation is defended as right, as has happened on the island of Ireland, including the UK bit, I think nutterdom may be invoked. (I don't know about Poland.)
[ 30. April 2016, 22:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When women die, or are forced to carry to term dead babies, and this situation is defended as right, as has happened on the island of Ireland, including the UK bit, I think nutterdom may be invoked. (I don't know about Poland.)
Perhaps some nutterdom, but what I am trying to find out is whether this is that of the far right - as we are told it is in the US. There is no link here between being anti-abortion and any particular political position.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I guess I am confused, then, as to what you meant by this question, which seems to be implying that one of us has said it DOESN'T exist in the U.S. hard right.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But not the hard right nutterdom written about int the US?
You've now lost me completely. I have never implied that there is no link in the US between the far right nutters and an anti=abortion movement. Nor have I suggested anywhere that you said there was no link.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Then what did you mean by that question? Seriously, that's how I read it in context. What other thing did you mean?
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It means exactly what it says (subject of course to correcting the typo).
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Luke
Soli Deo Gloria
# 306
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
1. There is no pro-abortion movement.
2. The way our society is currently set up, babies ARE a barrier to a woman's prosperity. And the anti-abortion forces at least in the USA are cheerleaders for the economic policies that make this so.
1. A pro-abortion industry?
2. 'Better that one baby dies, in order to save a mother's prosperity?'
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Emily's Voice
Posts: 822 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Better that every child that is born is loved and wanted, that the people who are going to care for them are prepared, whether emotionally, socially or financially, for the needs of a child.
Better than, in case I need to spell it out, children brought up in poverty who have damaged life chances, than children brought up in care who have equally damaged life chances, and that's what happens to children whose parents cannot cope.
I want children to have the best life chances they can, and forcing parents to have children they do not want means that they give birth to children who are more likely to have lives that are harder.
I would agree that abortion is the least bad solution in most cases. It is far better not get pregnant when you're not prepared to have children, but we're fighting the sexing up of society here.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
They call it pro-choice for a reason. It's not pro-abortion, but pro CHOICE. Who gets to decide? Unless you are the pregnant person, or the person who engendered the embryo, it is not clear that your opinion should come into it at all.
For that reason alone, putting every other consideration aside, I would be [pro-choice.
I have a friend who struggled with infertility. After many medical interventions, she became pregnant, to much rejoicing. Alas, the baby was deformed (trisotomy 18, incompatible with life). She is pro-life, and elected to carry the fetus through to birth, and let it take its first and last breaths in her arms.
Absolutely OK. She and her husband ONLY had input into the decision. If you were in the same straits, and opted to have an abortion at 8 weeks, that would be OK too. It is a personal decision.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
2. The way our society is currently set up, babies ARE a barrier to a woman's prosperity. And the anti-abortion forces at least in the USA are cheerleaders for the economic policies that make this so.
1. A pro-abortion industry?
No. That's the anti-abortion side's fantasy. Or perhaps their straw man. Or perhaps their windmill.
quote:
2. 'Better that one baby dies, in order to save a mother's prosperity?'
Did I say that? This is a direct, straighforward, no-holds-barred straw man.
And you may not have noticed, but not everybody thinks a 3-week old zygote is a "baby." So they are not, in fact, thinking anything like "better that one baby dies." You're projecting your values into their thinking.
And the issue is not as simple as you, in your privilege, make it out to be. Women in desperate straits, barely feeding the kids they have, with a crappy, insecure job (or three), no healthcare, certain to be fired rather than allowed to take time off to have a baby. Carrying to term can be, for some people, a guaranteed ticket to living on the street for them and their children. So it's not "oh you poor dear, having a baby will be inconvenient for you." It's a fucking hard and painful decision, and the pregnant woman may very well feel she has no other choice.
And why does she have no medical care, no guaranteed maternity leave, a sub-living wage? The same fucking assholes who push laws to criminalize abortion also push laws to impoverish the working class, whether intentionally or not doesn't matter a flip fuck.
How can the pro-life movement have greater appeal? Vocally and effectively work for laws that make it reasonable (not "convenient" -- stop being so fucking insulting god damn it) for a working single mother to carry to term.
Do I know that not all abortions are performed on working single mothers? Yes, I do. So knock that shit right out.
Until the anti-abortion movement becomes a visibly, vocally, and effectively pro-child, pro-mother movement, it will not have wider appeal.
[code]
[ 02. May 2016, 14:22: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Here is an article about birth control education.
The salient point is down near the bottom of it. The state of Colorado experimented with giving teens birth control, specifically the IUD. This is a one-time insertion, no fuss with pills or condoms, but it is more costly. The result: "between 2009 and 2014, the birth rate among young women aged 15-19 dropped 48 percent, and the birth rate among women aged 20-24 dropped 20 percent."
I think we could agree that hardly any women aged 15-19 would be wise to become pregnant, and are unlikely to make good mothers if forced to carry to term. Surely the vast number of those pregnancies would end in abortion. So look at the savation of lives and aggravation! And you can see in the article that Delaware is going to try it too.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
One the other hand - can I believe I'm opposing this? On the other hand, what happened to the STD rates?
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
One the other hand - can I believe I'm opposing this? On the other hand, what happened to the STD rates?
2013 young people 15-24
Chlamydia rate Colorado 1897.8 (nationwide 2160.2)
Gonorrhea rate Colorado 203.9 (nationwide 421.3)
2008 (before the program started)
Chlamydia rate Colorado 1996.4 (nationwide 1982.3)
Gonorrhea rate Colorado 312.7 (nationwide 476.5)
http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/by-age/15-24-all-stds/default.htm
(assuming I'm pulling the data correctly, ideally I should pull it for all the years)
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Gee D - As I understand it, you asked if the pro-life movement in the UK has a political affiliation?
I can only speak for my corner of the UK, but no, not that I am aware. I know a few people who are pro-life, and they don't advertise their politics. I'd guess that politically they are middle of the road.
There is a connection between the pro-life groups and churches which practise Sabbath observance/ don't ordain women / believe homosexuality and sex outwith marriage to be a sin / etc.
Historically (i.e, C19th) those churches (the various flavours of Free Churches) were the churches of the urban working classes / lower middle and rural farm workers, and they voted left-of-centre. My grandmother (born 1906) when I asked how she voted when she was young, replied "Free Church" which was a valid answer for the pre WWII period, when the Free Church vote was consistently Liberal (as opposed to Tory).
However many of the Free Church core values - thrift, hard work and the value of education - meant that they became socially upwardly mobile. By the time that abortion became an issue the old link between church / class / politics had long since broken down.
Does that answer the question you were asking?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thanks NEQ, that's exactly what I was asking. Similarly, there is no linkage here.
The additional information you provide is interesting, but given the absence of established vs free churches here (and most definitely no Wee Frees) that history is not carried over. Madame and I are opposed to abortion, but have no objection at all to contraception, wide sex education in schools and so forth, nor do we seek to suppress women's sexuality. I can't of course speak for others opposed.
[ 03. May 2016, 08:46: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
One of the most high-profile pro-lifers in Scotland is Brian Souter who is also one of the Scottish National Party's largest donors. The SNP are generally left-of-centre.
The amount of money he has given to both pro-life and the SNP is huge, but he gives to other causes too. My church (Church of Scotland, not Free Church) is part of a local grouping which supports a hospital in Malawi. Our last coffee morning was to help fund the training costs of a medical student there. One of the Souter trusts is matching pound for pound money raised here for that purpose.
Personally, I'm not comfortable with him bank-rolling a political party, nor his funding of anti-gay and anti-abortion groups, but I wouldn't suggest that my church eschews his funding of projects in Malawi. If that makes me a hypocrite, well, I can't argue that point.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
I don't see that as at hypocritical. You agree with some of his policies but not all. Probably true of every politician.
Madame and I are strange beasts around here. I think we're the only ones in our street (admittedly not a long one) who vote Labor and certainly the only ones in our large families who do. A great uncle was horrified to hear that I had voted against the Liberal Party at the first Federal election for which I was eligible to vote. He had been on the State Council of that party for quite some time. Even so, there's much we disagree with in both Federal and State Labor policies and politicians particularly over the last 20 years. But being on the left does not mean that we do not oppose abortion. Perhaps it means that we support free contraception for those below a pretty generous means test, child support schemes, decent sex education, paid maternity leave and so forth.
[ 03. May 2016, 12:26: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
Another great pro-life moment:
Volunteer "Sacked"
Obviously, religious organizations can discriminate on religious grounds. And volunteers are not employees. These "Samaritans" still look like idiots. They should change their name to Priests & Levites R Us if they're that fussy about who they associate with.
After her years of service, they won't allow her to continue helping real, actual, post-born children. And the cherry on top: " ... the group does not require people donating to the shoe box campaign to sign a statement of faith." So they'd be perfectly happy to take her money, just not her time.
Won't someone think of the children?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Louise
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# 30
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Posted
bumping up for housekeeping reasons
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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