Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
When are you going to understand that we are all different?

---

O! O! The irony! It hurts, ma, it hurts!

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
Evo1, when you're not in a direct argument with somebody, I really can appreciate your insight. A little earlier in these posts we were having a wonderfully polite and civil conversation which I enjoyed.

It's when the argument begins to flare up that you begin making absolutely no sense.

For instance, let me get this straight. People who don't feel like they have a PRWG don't want others telling them that they do, so they request that people would stop telling them that they DO have one, and that it is NECESSARY to have one.

Now some of you are insisting that it's just as harmful to you if we ask you to be sensitive to that?

Nobody is asking you to stop referring to your own relationship with God in any way that you would like. I'm not, anyway. Refer to your relationships however you wish, and let us refer to ours as we wish. What is harmful about that request?

The stubbornness here is astounding. Yes, people are all different--deal with it and be sensitive to the differences. You can't then say "Yeah everyone is different so don't get on my case just because I think everyone should be just like me, after all everyone is different so it's hurtful if you tell me I can't act like that!"

It just doesn't make a bit of sense.

-Digory

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
But that said, I do apologise for my argumentativeness earlier. I have had a very tough couple or three months, so tough in fact that if "I am not Job" knew just how tough it was he would probably change his name to "I am not Job, but I think Evo1 might be".

---

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
I'm not even going to start to make a reply to the prior poster, I could, it would be a long post and no-one would end up in any different place so I won't. Let's just say I am quickly learning why this place is called "Ship of Fools"

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I told myself I wasn't coming back to this topic thread again, but...

Is there perhaps a confusion between the terms <i>personal</i> and <i>private</i>?

I'm thinking of Dr. Mark Allen Powell, NT prof at Trinity Lutheran Seminary (Columbus, OH) and author of, among other books, <i>Loving Jesus</i> -- I'm going to be hearing him lecture in February; that'll be kewl -- saying that, in Christianity, our relationship with Christ) can certainly be <i>personal</i>, but it's never <i>private.</i> (Or as my own pastor would put it, "It ain't me and Jesus under a blanket with a flashlight." Is that helpful at all to anyone?

---

Your posts are always helpful, LC. (Just don't forget to use square brackets [] and not the carats <>.)

However, I think the main argument that has circulated and stagnated here for the last 500 posts is not furthered by your distinction. Let me point to one of your phrasings though--

quote:

---

...our relationship with Christ can certainly be personal

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
The little winky face doesn't make you any less of an ass. I would have PMed you, but you've added me to your "ignore" list because I am such a terrible, rude, irrational, offensive person.

-Digory

PS Sorry hosts, I didn't think it was worth a whole new thread in hell. At least not yet.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
I would have PMed you, but you've added me to your "ignore" list...

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by o00o:
I would like to ask a question to Professor Kirke, Karl, Nicodemia et al - how, if at all, do you practise prayer, bible study, "quiet times" etc, and are there good resources/books that you find useful?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by o00o:
I would like to thank Nicodemia, Professor Kirke, Josephine, Karl and others for their contribution. . . . What has been said has helped me clarify my own thoughts, and has encouraged me greatly.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
I don't respond too favourably to threats I'm afraid.

---

Oh man. I give up.
__________________________________________________


ooOOoo or St. Sebastian or anyone else, you can PM me if you have any other questions or whatever.

Otherwise, I think this thread has run its course. See you all in other, new and budding threads!

-Digory

Posted                      

quote:

---

Original sig by Evo1:

Just think how horrid I'd be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

---

and just think how wonderful Jesus is, that even i can be forgiven.

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:
What works for me is what lots of the PRWG types would call "empty ritual." For me, of course, the rituals aren't empty at all. Following the patterns the Church has devised over the last 2000 years or so, rather than trying to come up with something on my own, makes a difference for me.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Oh, that makes perfect sense, but the thing is that that was not explained by the purveyors of the PRWG when I was a charismatic evangelical.

To me, it still has a semantic problem - it's a personal relationship, but not analogous to any other personal relationship you might have.

I think the phrase "individual search for God" would be more useful, unless anyone's going to claim they've actually found Him.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To me, it still has a semantic problem - it's a personal relationship, snip...

---

So what have we been arguing about?

--------------------
Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

Posted                       

quote:

---

The only time I thought God had clearly spoken to me I though He told me to go and be a primary school teacher. Evidently I was wrong, since I flunked the course in the final year and I am now an IT systems analyst. Still, I met Mrs Backslider there, so maybe

---

...maybe that was what you were there for.

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
Ah, I see that now.

Thank Goodness, I was really confused then .

Just to be sure (be patient with me) you were saying that to you, what the evangelicals are saying is that it is a personal relationship, but not one like any other?

I get that.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by PerkyEars:

quote:

---

The only time I thought God had clearly spoken to me I though He told me to go and be a primary school teacher. Evidently I was wrong, since I flunked the course in the final year and I am now an IT systems analyst. Still, I met Mrs Backslider there, so maybe

---

...maybe that was what you were there for.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, Teuf, but from the context those lines are clearly metaphorical. There was never any indication that the PRWG was a metaphor.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.

---

Then let me deal once, for all, with this point - and I shall be as sensitive as an Evo1 can be

What I would say, about my relationship with God, is that it is very much like other personal relationships of mine (no metaphors, real ones like father/son, mother/son, friend/friend, teacher/student and so on). Some times it is close, sometimes it is distant and some times, positively non existant.

He speaks to me and tells me things I could never otherwise have known and he comforts me in times when no-one else could.

But all that said, I do not project those experiences on anyone else. I know that's the case for me but I also know that it's only my personal stubborness which made it necessary for him to communicate with me in this way. I fully respect and admire other Christians who view and interact(or not) with God in wholly different ways than me.

--------------------
Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think what it simply means is that Christian faith has to be your own decision, your own journey and pilgrimage, rather than assuming you can be included in the crowd if you stand near enough.

---

quote:

---

I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. And I believe also that this is thine own most pure Body, and that this is thine own precious Blood. Therefore, I pray thee, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of in deed, in knowledge and in ignorance, and make me worthy without condemnation to partake of thy most pure Mysteries for the remission of sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
Of thy mystical supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant, for I will not speak of thy mystery to thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give thee a kiss, but like the thief will I confess thee, remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom.
May the communion of thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body.

---

Posted                       

Thanks for that Josephine - makes a lot of sense and has helped to break down some more barriers.

Just one question, as it is something I struggle with.

quote:

---

The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.

---

Then let me deal once, for all, with this point - and I shall be as sensitive as an Evo1 can be

What I would say, about my relationship with God, is that it is very much like other personal relationships of mine (no metaphors, real ones like father/son, mother/son, friend/friend, teacher/student and so on). Some times it is close, sometimes it is distant and some times, positively non existant.

He speaks to me and tells me things I could never otherwise have known and he comforts me in times when no-one else could.

But all that said, I do not project those experiences on anyone else. I know that's the case for me but I also know that it's only my personal stubborness which made it necessary for him to communicate with me in this way. I fully respect and admire other Christians who view and interact(or not) with God in wholly different ways than me.

---

Thank you, Evo1. That's (and I'm being quite honest here) one of the best things anyone's said on this thread.

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by quantpole:
Thanks for that Josephine - makes a lot of sense and has helped to break down some more barriers.

Just one question, as it is something I struggle with.

quote:

---

The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church.

---

How do we know the commandmant is for the church and not as individuals? I know it is physically impossible, but have previously taken it as a bit of hyperbole to emphasise the importance of prayer in our lives.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
Thank you, Evo1. That's (and I'm being quite honest here) one of the best things anyone's said on this thread.

---

Then I wished I'd said it a long time ago



--------------------
Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

Posted                          

quote:

---

posted by Josephine:
The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church. So when I can't pray, because I am reading special educaiton law, or researching pediatric gastric reflux, or whatever it is I'm doing, I can trust that someone else is praying. As the earth turns on its axis, somewhere, someone is praying Vespers, even when I can't. And then Complines, and Matins, and the prayers of the hours. The world is wrapped in prayers. And because I'm part of the crowd, I'm carried along with and supported by the prayers of all those who can and do pray when I can't find the time or the place or the peace in my heart to do it

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by (gracia):
I guess you're saying that since "pray without ceasing" was given to a body of believers instead of to each individual (historically), that makes it a qualitatively different "command" than the 10 commandments per se.

---

quote:

---

My point is that it is no more possible to obey all the commandments than it is to obey Paul's instruction, so I don't accept that "pray without ceasing" is too demanding to be considered as an individual requirement (because I do believe that the 10 commandments are, also, though they are a standard to measure our actions by).

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by (gracia):
I guess you're saying that since "pray without ceasing" was given to a body of believers instead of to each individual (historically), that makes it a qualitatively different "command" than the 10 commandments per se.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Yet, there is that man, when Jesus asked him if he believed, responded, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." And, for me, that's one of the greatest, most important, and most wonderful things about the Church. When I struggle to believe, I can go there, and stand in the crowd, and the faith and the prayers of those gathered there can carry me along with them. When the crowd starts moving, if I have just enough faith to put myself in it, I can be carried along. I only have to have enough discipline to go -- and knowing that there are people there who look for me to be part of the crowd helps me get there. And when I get there, when it's time to partake of the Eucharist, I only have to have enough faith to open my mouth. That's all. God, through the people he has gathered there, can take care of the rest.

---

It was this belief, which Josephine puts so much better than I can and the thought of the "crowd of witnesses" - living on earth and in heaven - that got me through a long, and dreadful period of dryness, despair and almost non-belief.

And hooray that Matt and Mrs Black are no longer bound by one definition of what it means to know God. And for your work, Mrs. B