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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Personal Relationship with Christ? Huh?
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
So you see, your telling me that I cannot just tell people what I think, straight up, no nonsense, does somewhat tie my hands, just in exactly the same way that you are accusing us on the other side of the fence of oppressing you.
I'm sorry, Evo1, this is complete bollocks! What is the purpose behind telling people what you think. Is it to get it off your chest, or is it to communicate? In short, is it for your benefit or for theirs? If the former, then rather than drawing people to Christ, are you not in danger of repelling them. If the latter, what is the problem with testing out whether or not they might find a concept useful, before pursuing it. As, for example, Karl suggests in his post of 13.02. What's so constraining in making sure that your message is understood, rather than misunderstood? (I won't even mention the issue of respect for the person to whom you are talking).
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
Your doing it again.
This is pointless.
It is. We've got to the point where you're defending your position by telling me that the people you talk to like to decide for themselves what's meaningful for them and this somehow means that telling them that this may or may not be meaningful for them would somehow be harmful.
Further discussion of this could only take place in Hell, and it's not a Thursday, and I'm busy this afternoon, so we'll just have to leave it here.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
So you see, your telling me that I cannot just tell people what I think, straight up, no nonsense, does somewhat tie my hands, just in exactly the same way that you are accusing us on the other side of the fence of oppressing you.
I'm sorry, Evo1, this is complete bollocks! What is the purpose behind telling people what you think. Is it to get it off your chest, or is it to communicate? In short, is it for your benefit or for theirs? If the former, then rather than drawing people to Christ, are you not in danger of repelling them. If the latter, what is the problem with testing out whether or not they might find a concept useful, before pursuing it. As, for example, Karl suggests in his post of 13.02. What's so constraining in making sure that your message is understood, rather than misunderstood? (I won't even mention the issue of respect for the person to whom you are talking).
I have no problem with saying things along the lines of, "I wonder if this might be helpful to you.."
But that's not what Karl said, he prefers the more caveated: "How about it being presented as "This may be something useful for you, although a lot of Christians don't relate to it, and be careful because some people assume it means things it doesn't (in the opinion of KLBS)"
(with my clarification there of course)
The point is, I only tell people this kind of thing if they ask, so it is for their benefit - they wanted to know, I tell them. They are normally not Christian, and normally do not have a PRWG anyway, on quite a few occasions, afterwards, they have had one. I'm glad about that, bollocks or not!
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
This may be something useful for you, although a lot of Christians don't relate to it, and be careful because some people assume it means things it doesn't (in the opinion of KLBS)"
No, in the opinion of many posters on this thread. Lots of us have said that "PR" means things you think it doesn't. Trying to make it look like I'm the only one, and it's only opinion (it's clearly fact that some people have a different understanding of the term, as they've said so) is dishonest of you.
And please explain exactly how being that caveated could actually be harmful, because frankly I think that's bullshit.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
This may be something useful for you, although a lot of Christians don't relate to it, and be careful because some people assume it means things it doesn't (in the opinion of KLBS)"
No, in the opinion of many posters on this thread. Lots of us have said that "PR" means things you think it doesn't. Trying to make it look like I'm the only one, and it's only opinion (it's clearly fact that some people have a different understanding of the term, as they've said so) is dishonest of you.
And please explain exactly how being that caveated could actually be harmful, because frankly I think that's bullshit.
Frankly, this is laughable, you really would insist on my saying (on the basis that people on here have said so) (now read this carefully and spot the bit that may seem out of place to a listener):
"This may be something useful for you, although a lot of Christians don't relate to it, and be careful because some people assume it means things it doesn't - including me actually, I am assuming it means something it doesn't (in the opinion of some people on SoF)"
When are you going to understand that we are all different?
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Come on, Evo, you know perfectly well that others have said how difficult we find it to conceive of ourselves having a PR with God/Jesus. Josephine, Prof K., myself as well as Karl have all said so, at length. There are probably others, only I'm not trawling back through 10 pages to discover who they are.
I thought I had made it quite clear that I for one, have left the evangelical church because of the Cuddly Charismatic, PRWJ, erotic-style love affair with Jesus (Yes, Josephine wasn't so far off the mark!) that I was expected to have if I was to consider myself a REAL Christian.
Fortunately I discovered that all this fuzzy stuff was not obligatory, before I lost my faith altogether. Christianity could come in many forms.
So why not stop spouting all this nauseating stuff, agree to differ, respect what others say, and believe, and keep quiet about what sort of relationship you consider necessary for a Christian?
And stop telling us what OUR relationships are *really* like, although we just don't realise it!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
When are you going to understand that we are all different?
O! O! The irony! It hurts, ma, it hurts!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Evo, why not just preface your comments with: "This may be something useful for you" and then go on to talk about a PR? That way you've left people space to say, "I'm sorry, I don't find that a helpful image," if they don't, or to use it and rejoice if they do.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Evo1, your response to Karl's question would be?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Superslug
Shipmate
# 7024
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Posted
Karl,
One of my major problems is that I tend to sit on the fence about stuff like this, I can see all peoples point of view and am quite happy to hold a number of ideas in tension. It is great, therefore, that other people like you and EVO1 have solid firm opinions, well thought, out and backed up, to give other people a clear view about what you are on about.
If you insist on those who identify with a PRWG loading their arguments with caveats, you risk them not giving a clear statement of what they believe to be true.
In other words, turning them into a fence sitting, bungling, tongue tied evangelist like me.
Would you give a balanced argument to someone who asked or would you give a response which just referred to your take on things ?
SS
[ 02. December 2005, 14:47: Message edited by: Superslug ]
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I was 'educated' in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. Therefore, please feel free to correct my grammar and punctuation. I need to know!
Posts: 464 | From: Hessle, East Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I've got to say, out of all the discussions I've read in Purgatory over the years, this has to be one of the least edifying.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Evo, why not just preface your comments with: "This may be something useful for you" and then go on to talk about a PR? That way you've left people space to say, "I'm sorry, I don't find that a helpful image," if they don't, or to use it and rejoice if they do.
and this is exactly how I do frame things, as my comment around the top of the page alluded to. "You may find this useful" I think is an excellent way to discuss with all kinds of people."
And as to Karl's question, I can confirm that not being clear about this very point can (and in my case did) keep me in atheism. And for me at least, that was certainly damaging for me. But that might not be a good enough answer - I'm sorry about that.
Thanks for that Slug, you are a very wise man. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Superslug:
Would you give a balanced argument to someone who asked or would you give a response which just referred to your take on things ?
Depends, of course, on the question. If someone asked, "What is your relationship with God like?" I'd just say what mine is like. My take is all they were asking about, so that's what I'd tell them. If they asked, "What is it like to have a relationship with God?" I'd say, "It's different for different people. For me, it's like this. But other people have said X, Y, and Z about their relationships with God."
That doesn't seem to be so weighted with caveats that it's beyond understanding. But maybe that's because I don't expect one-size-fits-all answers to major life questions.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Superslug
Shipmate
# 7024
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Posted
Josephine,
I'm sorry, its probably due to my large ego, but even with your 2nd question i would still assume someone was asking about my relationship.
I would hope the conversation would progress to talk more widely about the subject and it is then that i would fall into toungue tied, fence sitting idiot mode.
but hey we are all different!
[ 02. December 2005, 15:10: Message edited by: Superslug ]
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I was 'educated' in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. Therefore, please feel free to correct my grammar and punctuation. I need to know!
Posts: 464 | From: Hessle, East Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Evo1,
Why not simply say "in my experience,..."? It's simple, and acknowledges that other people might have other experiences.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
One reason I don't do what you would like me to is, believe it or not, I am different to some/all of you.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Evo1, when you're not in a direct argument with somebody, I really can appreciate your insight. A little earlier in these posts we were having a wonderfully polite and civil conversation which I enjoyed.
It's when the argument begins to flare up that you begin making absolutely no sense.
For instance, let me get this straight. People who don't feel like they have a PRWG don't want others telling them that they do, so they request that people would stop telling them that they DO have one, and that it is NECESSARY to have one.
Now some of you are insisting that it's just as harmful to you if we ask you to be sensitive to that?
Nobody is asking you to stop referring to your own relationship with God in any way that you would like. I'm not, anyway. Refer to your relationships however you wish, and let us refer to ours as we wish. What is harmful about that request?
The stubbornness here is astounding. Yes, people are all different--deal with it and be sensitive to the differences. You can't then say "Yeah everyone is different so don't get on my case just because I think everyone should be just like me, after all everyone is different so it's hurtful if you tell me I can't act like that!"
It just doesn't make a bit of sense.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
When are you going to understand that we are all different?
O! O! The irony! It hurts, ma, it hurts!
Speechless.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
I'm not even going to start to make a reply to the prior poster, I could, it would be a long post and no-one would end up in any different place so I won't. Let's just say I am quickly learning why this place is called "Ship of Fools" ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
But that said, I do apologise for my argumentativeness earlier. I have had a very tough couple or three months, so tough in fact that if "I am not Job" knew just how tough it was he would probably change his name to "I am not Job, but I think Evo1 might be".
The upshot may well have been that I have allowed myself to be drawn into argument rather than debate - and I am sorry for that.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I told myself I wasn't coming back to this topic thread again, but...
Is there perhaps a confusion between the terms <i>personal</i> and <i>private</i>?
I'm thinking of Dr. Mark Allen Powell, NT prof at Trinity Lutheran Seminary (Columbus, OH) and author of, among other books, <i>Loving Jesus</i> -- I'm going to be hearing him lecture in February; that'll be kewl -- saying that, in Christianity, our relationship with Christ) can certainly be <i>personal</i>, but it's never <i>private.</i> (Or as my own pastor would put it, "It ain't me and Jesus under a blanket with a flashlight." Is that helpful at all to anyone?
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Evo1, when you're not in a direct argument with somebody, I really can appreciate your insight. A little earlier in these posts we were having a wonderfully polite and civil conversation which I enjoyed.
It's when the argument begins to flare up that you begin making absolutely no sense.
For instance, let me get this straight. People who don't feel like they have a PRWG don't want others telling them that they do, so they request that people would stop telling them that they DO have one, and that it is NECESSARY to have one.
Now some of you are insisting that it's just as harmful to you if we ask you to be sensitive to that?
Nobody is asking you to stop referring to your own relationship with God in any way that you would like. I'm not, anyway. Refer to your relationships however you wish, and let us refer to ours as we wish. What is harmful about that request?
The stubbornness here is astounding. Yes, people are all different--deal with it and be sensitive to the differences. You can't then say "Yeah everyone is different so don't get on my case just because I think everyone should be just like me, after all everyone is different so it's hurtful if you tell me I can't act like that!"
It just doesn't make a bit of sense.
-Digory
Very classy reply, Professorkirke. I could not think of a single response myself that would not either lower myself or drag things straight to Hell.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
But that said, I do apologise for my argumentativeness earlier. I have had a very tough couple or three months, so tough in fact that if "I am not Job" knew just how tough it was he would probably change his name to "I am not Job, but I think Evo1 might be".
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
I'm not even going to start to make a reply to the prior poster, I could, it would be a long post and no-one would end up in any different place so I won't. Let's just say I am quickly learning why this place is called "Ship of Fools"
The little winky face doesn't make you any less of an ass. I would have PMed you, but you've added me to your "ignore" list because I am such a terrible, rude, irrational, offensive person.
-Digory
PS Sorry hosts, I didn't think it was worth a whole new thread in hell. At least not yet.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I told myself I wasn't coming back to this topic thread again, but...
Is there perhaps a confusion between the terms <i>personal</i> and <i>private</i>?
I'm thinking of Dr. Mark Allen Powell, NT prof at Trinity Lutheran Seminary (Columbus, OH) and author of, among other books, <i>Loving Jesus</i> -- I'm going to be hearing him lecture in February; that'll be kewl -- saying that, in Christianity, our relationship with Christ) can certainly be <i>personal</i>, but it's never <i>private.</i> (Or as my own pastor would put it, "It ain't me and Jesus under a blanket with a flashlight." Is that helpful at all to anyone?
Your posts are always helpful, LC. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) (Just don't forget to use square brackets [] and not the carats <>.)
However, I think the main argument that has circulated and stagnated here for the last 500 posts is not furthered by your distinction. Let me point to one of your phrasings though--
quote:
...our relationship with Christ can certainly be personal
--you didn't say "is always personal." That's all that matters to me. Certainly and without doubt many people right here on this thread have very personal relationships with God. But when they tell me and others that we
a) must have a PRWG to be Christians, and
b) actually DO have a PRWG without even knowing it,
well, it's just uncalled for. It's unnecessary and it's offensive, and if people would just take this advice from those of us who have been hurt by this type of philosophy, they would perhaps save others from experiencing a similar misfortune.
Either that, or they could stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it and instead pick apart wordings and concepts and go back on arguments. Ah, choices.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hosting
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The little winky face doesn't make you any less of an ass. I would have PMed you, but you've added me to your "ignore" list because I am such a terrible, rude, irrational, offensive person.
-Digory
PS Sorry hosts, I didn't think it was worth a whole new thread in hell. At least not yet.
The little apology doesn't make you any less in violation of the Ship's third commandment. This sort of thing is absolutely out of order in Purgatory, and you knew that when you posted it. If you don't wish to post abuse in Hell, don't post it at all.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
My apologies, RuthW. You're right.
I re-read over the wording of the Commandments after I'd posted and saw just exactly how out of line I really was. Won't happen again.
-Digory
...goes off mumbling something about the stupid PM ignore feature...
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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o00o
Shipmate
# 3147
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Posted
I would like to thank Nicodemia, Professor Kirke, Josephine, Karl and others for their contribution. I have been following this thread closely but have refrained from posting (bar once back on page one) because this is too close and difficult an issue for me at the moment. What has been said has helped me clarify my own thoughts, and has encouraged me greatly.
I would like to ask a question to Professor Kirke, Karl, Nicodemia et al - how, if at all, do you practise prayer, bible study, "quiet times" etc, and are there good resources/books that you find useful?
I have spent all of my Christian life so far in a envangelical environment that strongly emphasises the PRWG angle, and the necessity of daily "quiet times" talking with God etc. For me these have been a permenant struggle and driven by guilt rather than any more positive motive. I have not even been attempting private prayer or bible study regularly for several months now due to the negative feelings associated with everything. I know I need some form of bible study/prayer but I don't know where to look and am scared of picking up something that is going to damage my only recently returning desire for God, rather than help.
On a similar note, what sort of churches do you attend? Fortunately I am moving house in the new year so I can make the change to a different without too much more difficulty.
Thank you.
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11 o'clock - time for a Little Something
Posts: 168 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Hello, oOOo.
Thanks for your honesty. It's always refreshing.
I'll give you my opinion, with a strong preface that they are only my opinions and should be treated as such. For the longest time I have struggled with the very things you're talking about in your post--the "necessity" of a certain kind of prayer, "quiet times," and other ritual practices. I have found many of them to be quite useless and to have negative effects on my outlook on God.
So, instead I have found that I need to let God define the relationship I am going to have with him by the desires he placed there at the point I was created. First, I love music. So I spend a considerable amount of time listening and reflecting on thought-provoking music. Many times it's Christian worship music that I enjoy, but other times it's secular music that I find to be inspirational in some way. It gives me a great time to reflect and meditate. Second, I need to write in order to think, so I spend some time just writing out some thoughts about things I don't understand, or whatever happens to pop in my mind about God, no matter the tone. The church I go to has 4 different preachers who rotate giving sermons on Sundays, and the church is rather large. I find that it helps me to somewhat disappear, sit somewhere and just soak it in and let myself interpret it in a way that is relevant to my own life. I sit with a journal and even if I think the pastor is spewing some sort of nonsense, it provokes all sorts of thoughts that I channel to (what I think are) good ends.
Lastly, I come here, which also gets my mind focused on all sorts of God-flavored things. Anything that points me there, like reading good inspirational books (check out Brian McLaren and Donald Miller if you're looking for some stuff that's a little different). That's kind of how I deal.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I would have PMed you, but you've added me to your "ignore" list...
Evo1,
If you would kindly take me off of this ignore list, we could avoid cluttering up Hell with another useless thread.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
I don't respond too favourably to threats I'm afraid.
For the record, Digory is on my ignore list for sharing details publicly the last time I PM'd him. He also posted a message warning everyone that he did not see a Private message in any way Private unless the sender explicitly made it clear.
PK, I really don't see that we have anything further to say to each other, if you wish to continue to shower me with personal insults, go ahead and open a Hell thread but I do not wish to do the same to you anymore.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by o00o:
I would like to ask a question to Professor Kirke, Karl, Nicodemia et al - how, if at all, do you practise prayer, bible study, "quiet times" etc, and are there good resources/books that you find useful?
What works for me is what lots of the PRWG types would call "empty ritual." For me, of course, the rituals aren't empty at all. Following the patterns the Church has devised over the last 2000 years or so, rather than trying to come up with something on my own, makes a difference for me.
So I keep the prescribed fasts. I give alms. I attempt to follow a rule of prayer (a set of prayers to be said at a particular time each day), although I find that very difficult. Quiet times and improvised prayers just don't do it for me at all, though.
I also find reading the lives of the saints and writings by the saints to be extremely helpful.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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St. Sebastian
Staggering ever onward
# 312
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by o00o:
I would like to thank Nicodemia, Professor Kirke, Josephine, Karl and others for their contribution. . . . What has been said has helped me clarify my own thoughts, and has encouraged me greatly.
Ditto!
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St. Seb
In Spite of Everything: Yes.
Posts: 962 | From: Burlington, North Carolina | Registered: May 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
I don't respond too favourably to threats I'm afraid.
Oh man. I give up.
__________________________________________________
ooOOoo or St. Sebastian or anyone else, you can PM me if you have any other questions or whatever.
Otherwise, I think this thread has run its course. See you all in other, new and budding threads!
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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corvette
Shipmate
# 9436
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Posted
quote:
Original sig by Evo1:
Just think how horrid I'd be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
and just think how wonderful Jesus is, that even i can be forgiven.
Posts: 494 | From: ecclesia sans frontiers | Registered: May 2005
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
What works for me is what lots of the PRWG types would call "empty ritual." For me, of course, the rituals aren't empty at all. Following the patterns the Church has devised over the last 2000 years or so, rather than trying to come up with something on my own, makes a difference for me.
I too find great richness and depth in liturgy (I go to an anglo-catholic charismatic "smells & bells" episcopal church, if you can wrap your brain around THAT set of contrasts!) - the prescribed prayers are rich and full, if you bring your own "content" to them (does that make sense? I know what I mean, but no idea if anybody else will).
I also have the wonderful opportunity to spend Tuesday afternoons (usually 3-4 hours total) at church in a very small "listening prayer" or "prophetic intercession" prayer group, so the "quiet" stuff works well for me, personally.
I'm also one of the worship leaders Sunday morning, so I do a lot of worship in music (in our main service, we use 10 songs in two primary sets, so that's a fair chunk of music), listening to it, singing along, being part of a team or sometimes an individual leader, depending on what is needed, etc.
I've got a wonderful "Bible in a Year" which is Oswald Chambers! That's been delightful and I tend to read a day's worth before going to sleep at night (helps me to "set my mind" on the things of God before sleeping). I try to do some Bible reading in the morning to get myself rightly oriented at the start of the day (I need it!) and I also try to do some "study" several times a week, working through one specific book at a time - usually utilizing one of a number of different Bible teachers I respect.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
At risk of repeating what's been said or offending those who haven't/don't want a PRWG, can I clarify what I think evangelicals mean when they talk about PRWG?
It doesn't always mean an intense, emotional, ecstatic, charismatic experience.
It doesn't mean suddenly becoming enthusiastic about private prayer and daily quiet times or giving out leaflets and singing Graham Kendrick songs.
But the term 'personal relationship' is, I believe, a term that was coined to challenge people who feel they can inherit their faith from parents, or who feel that Christian culture is enough. In fact I think the phrase has less to do with 'relationship' than with 'personal'.
I think what it simply means is that Christian faith has to be your own decision, your own journey and pilgrimage, rather than assuming you can be included in the crowd if you stand near enough.
I guess therefore, that whatever type of believer you are, if you have a belief that is considered, deliberate, aand meaningful to you, and has a focus on God, then that is your PRWG.
Even if it's not expressed or 'felt' in an emotional way.
Does that help or make sense at all?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Oh, that makes perfect sense, but the thing is that that was not explained by the purveyors of the PRWG when I was a charismatic evangelical.
To me, it still has a semantic problem - it's a personal relationship, but not analogous to any other personal relationship you might have.
I think the phrase "individual search for God" would be more useful, unless anyone's going to claim they've actually found Him.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Oh, that makes perfect sense, but the thing is that that was not explained by the purveyors of the PRWG when I was a charismatic evangelical.
To me, it still has a semantic problem - it's a personal relationship, but not analogous to any other personal relationship you might have.
I think the phrase "individual search for God" would be more useful, unless anyone's going to claim they've actually found Him.
individual is a very good word.
i think your charismatic friends may have inadvertantly mislead you - which is a shame.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Oh, I don't know that they did. Most of them did seem to have an emotionally expressed relationship with God, where He spoke to them quite clearly. They naturally assumed that was for everyone. What is disconcerting is that there were no more mature people prividing a balance by pointing out that it isn't necessarily that way. Or perhaps there were; I've got a sneaking suspicion that I was so taken by the idea of this clearly felt, emotionally expressed PRWG that I wasn't listening to what caveats there may have been. It is a very seductive and attractive idea, which is why I think folk need to be so careful about how they express it.
The only time I thought God had clearly spoken to me I though He told me to go and be a primary school teacher. Evidently I was wrong, since I flunked the course in the final year and I am now an IT systems analyst. Still, I met Mrs Backslider there, so maybe God can even work through me mistaking my own imagination for Him. Or perhaps He doesn't map things out and it just all works out in the end; I don't know any more.
Back to answering o000o's question, one of the most interesting things I've found about myself is that the eucharist has risen in relative importance against other aspects of church services, probably because the elements are something real and concrete that I can hang my not particularly strongly believed faith on to. It's a pointer to an objective external reality (I'm not one for non-realism). Songs, hymns and prayers can require me too much to focus on something I cannot sense - the bread and wine at least are real physical objects, and possibly, just possibly, they can give me a glimpse of the real metaphysical Presence of God.
[ 06. December 2005, 07:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To me, it still has a semantic problem - it's a personal relationship, snip...
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
So what have we been arguing about?
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Evol - what I meant was that the purveyors of the PRWG are saying "it's a personal relationship, but not analogous to any other personal relationship you might have"
Perhaps I should have used inverted commas.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
Ah, I see that now.
Thank Goodness, I was really confused then .
Just to be sure (be patient with me) you were saying that to you, what the evangelicals are saying is that it is a personal relationship, but not one like any other?
I get that.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
quote:
The only time I thought God had clearly spoken to me I though He told me to go and be a primary school teacher. Evidently I was wrong, since I flunked the course in the final year and I am now an IT systems analyst. Still, I met Mrs Backslider there, so maybe
...maybe that was what you were there for.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
Ah, I see that now.
Thank Goodness, I was really confused then .
Just to be sure (be patient with me) you were saying that to you, what the evangelicals are saying is that it is a personal relationship, but not one like any other?
I get that.
Unfortunately, what they often said was "it's a personal relationship". My problem is that if it's not analogous to any other personal relationship, then I can't find locate the phrase in any semantic space.
Let me explain.
Suppose you tell me that you have a tree in your garden. I know what a tree is, so I will naturally think you mean that you have a large woody plant with roots, branches and leaves, because that's what trees have.
So when someone says they have a PRWG, I know what a personal relationship is, so I will naturally think that that person talks to God, gets responses, knows He's there, can interact with Him, has a degree of intimacy and so on and so forth. If it turns out that this PRWG has none of these features, I find it rather confusing that it's called a PRWG, just as I'd find it strange if you actually had a giant thistle with no wood, no branches, and no leaves, but called it "a tree, but not like any other tree".
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
quote:
The only time I thought God had clearly spoken to me I though He told me to go and be a primary school teacher. Evidently I was wrong, since I flunked the course in the final year and I am now an IT systems analyst. Still, I met Mrs Backslider there, so maybe
...maybe that was what you were there for.
Maybe it was. The thing is, had "God" (because I don't think it was He) said "Go to Nottingham Trent University" that would have been one thing. But "God" actually said "I want you to go and become a primary school teacher". That, had it really been "God", would have been a lie.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.
Sorry to hijack your metaphor here, Karl, but as with the 'not pizza, but bread and wine' argument I advanced much earlier in this thread, the tree-unlike-any-tree is exactly the symbol of God's personal relationship to us:
Faithful cross, thou sign of triumph,
Now for us the noblest tree,
None in foliage, none in blossom,
None in fruit thy peer may be;
Symbol of the world’s redemption,
For the weight that hung on thee!
Venantius Fortunatus, tr J M Neale
As I said before - some Christians clearly do feel a personal relationship with God in what is sometimes called the Jesus-is-my-boyfriend sense; others such as Karl equally clearly find such a conception impossible. Unless there's some disagreement about that, I'm not sure where the problem lies.
Oh - and to seize someone's substitution of 'erotic' for 'personal' - isn't that experience more often found among Catholic mystics than evangelicals? I may be wrong, but this is my recollection.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yeah, Teuf, but from the context those lines are clearly metaphorical. There was never any indication that the PRWG was a metaphor.
But this is a tangent of a tangent.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, Teuf, but from the context those lines are clearly metaphorical. There was never any indication that the PRWG was a metaphor.
I know - my paragraph after the verse was intended to address the issue more generally, not to comment on the verse. I guess I'm saying that there are at least three ways of seeing this:
1. A personal emotional/erotic relationship with God, where a perception of God's human immediacy is an important dimension of one's faith.
2. A sacramental, sacrificial personal relationship, where God's transcendent nature is made personal and immediate by representation in religious activity.
3. A purely philosophical attitude, without any personal engagement to speak of.
Unless anyone is saying that one or more of these approaches to God is intrinsically invalid, surely our disagreements are not with each other, but with those beyond this thread who've presented that attitude to us at other times?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.
Then let me deal once, for all, with this point - and I shall be as sensitive as an Evo1 can be
What I would say, about my relationship with God, is that it is very much like other personal relationships of mine (no metaphors, real ones like father/son, mother/son, friend/friend, teacher/student and so on). Some times it is close, sometimes it is distant and some times, positively non existant.
He speaks to me and tells me things I could never otherwise have known and he comforts me in times when no-one else could.
But all that said, I do not project those experiences on anyone else. I know that's the case for me but I also know that it's only my personal stubborness which made it necessary for him to communicate with me in this way. I fully respect and admire other Christians who view and interact(or not) with God in wholly different ways than me.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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