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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Personal Relationship with Christ? Huh?
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think what it simply means is that Christian faith has to be your own decision, your own journey and pilgrimage, rather than assuming you can be included in the crowd if you stand near enough.
I know what you mean, Mudfrog. And for most of us, most of the time, it's incredibly important that we have our own relationship with God. That's why, in the Liturgy, when we say the Creed, we say, "I believe in one God ..." and later, before the Eucharist, we have another prayer that begins with "I believe" --
quote:
I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. And I believe also that this is thine own most pure Body, and that this is thine own precious Blood. Therefore, I pray thee, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of in deed, in knowledge and in ignorance, and make me worthy without condemnation to partake of thy most pure Mysteries for the remission of sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
Of thy mystical supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant, for I will not speak of thy mystery to thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give thee a kiss, but like the thief will I confess thee, remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom.
May the communion of thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body.
I have to believe; I have to partake; I have to receive. No one can do that for me.
Yet, there is that man, when Jesus asked him if he believed, responded, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." And, for me, that's one of the greatest, most important, and most wonderful things about the Church. When I struggle to believe, I can go there, and stand in the crowd, and the faith and the prayers of those gathered there can carry me along with them. When the crowd starts moving, if I have just enough faith to put myself in it, I can be carried along. I only have to have enough discipline to go -- and knowing that there are people there who look for me to be part of the crowd helps me get there. And when I get there, when it's time to partake of the Eucharist, I only have to have enough faith to open my mouth. That's all. God, through the people he has gathered there, can take care of the rest.
I struggle to keep a rule of prayer. It's really hard for me to talk to someone who doesn't talk back. And even when I can, I struggle to find a quiet time and place to try to get myself focused and centered on God. It's just really hard for me. But a wise and kind deacon I know told me that monastics are given a daily rule that causes them to have to get up in the middle of the night for prayers, and they are given obediences at the monastery that might not be what they would choose, and a severe fast; the point of all of that is to teach them to deny themselves and follow Christ. I don't have a monastic rule, and I couldn't keep one if I did. I can hardly keep the miniscule rule my priest has given me. But I've been given kids with special needs, and they are given to me to teach me to deny myself and follow Christ.
The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church. So when I can't pray, because I am reading special educaiton law, or researching pediatric gastric reflux, or whatever it is I'm doing, I can trust that someone else is praying. As the earth turns on its axis, somewhere, someone is praying Vespers, even when I can't. And then Complines, and Matins, and the prayers of the hours. The world is wrapped in prayers. And because I'm part of the crowd, I'm carried along with and supported by the prayers of all those who can and do pray when I can't find the time or the place or the peace in my heart to do it.
[fixed code]
[ 06. December 2005, 16:49: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
Thanks for that Josephine - makes a lot of sense and has helped to break down some more barriers. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Just one question, as it is something I struggle with. quote:
The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church.
How do we know the commandmant is for the church and not as individuals? I know it is physically impossible, but have previously taken it as a bit of hyperbole to emphasise the importance of prayer in our lives.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I seem to be getting on this thread from the PRWG side is "a tree, but not like any other tree". One that doesn't have branches, leaves or roots, because it isn't like any other tree. What I'm asking is why you call it a tree then.
Then let me deal once, for all, with this point - and I shall be as sensitive as an Evo1 can be ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
What I would say, about my relationship with God, is that it is very much like other personal relationships of mine (no metaphors, real ones like father/son, mother/son, friend/friend, teacher/student and so on). Some times it is close, sometimes it is distant and some times, positively non existant.
He speaks to me and tells me things I could never otherwise have known and he comforts me in times when no-one else could.
But all that said, I do not project those experiences on anyone else. I know that's the case for me but I also know that it's only my personal stubborness which made it necessary for him to communicate with me in this way. I fully respect and admire other Christians who view and interact(or not) with God in wholly different ways than me.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Thank you, Evo1. That's (and I'm being quite honest here) one of the best things anyone's said on this thread.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
Thanks for that Josephine - makes a lot of sense and has helped to break down some more barriers.
Just one question, as it is something I struggle with. quote:
The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church.
How do we know the commandmant is for the church and not as individuals? I know it is physically impossible, but have previously taken it as a bit of hyperbole to emphasise the importance of prayer in our lives.
Would you be happy with, "Because that's what I've been taught"? Hmm. Maybe not.
But because it is physically impossible, the Church had to decide whether to interpret it as hyperbole, or as a command to the community, because, as you say, it doesn't work as a literal command to individuals. And I've been taught, since becoming Orthodox, that it is a command to the Church, to the community. As a part of that community, I need to do my part to keep the prayer going. But it's something we all do together.
It seems to me, as I've said before, that Christianity in past times, and even now in other places, is much more communal than what is typical in the US and western Europe. We're in it together. It makes sense to me.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Thank you, Evo1. That's (and I'm being quite honest here) one of the best things anyone's said on this thread.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Then I wished I'd said it a long time ago
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
posted by Josephine:
The command to pray without ceasing is given to us, not as individuals, but as a Church. So when I can't pray, because I am reading special educaiton law, or researching pediatric gastric reflux, or whatever it is I'm doing, I can trust that someone else is praying. As the earth turns on its axis, somewhere, someone is praying Vespers, even when I can't. And then Complines, and Matins, and the prayers of the hours. The world is wrapped in prayers. And because I'm part of the crowd, I'm carried along with and supported by the prayers of all those who can and do pray when I can't find the time or the place or the peace in my heart to do it
You may believe it because it's what you've been taught; I've never been taught that but I really like it and see the truth of it. I'm not sure it's the ONLY way to apply the passage (so often things aren't "either/or" but "both/and") but yeah, this is a good understanding. I have had a few occasions when I could barely pray but I could feel the prayers of faithful friends (and only God knows how many other saints) upholding me... BTW, I love compline.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
Well, if you consider "pray without ceasing" as hyperbole, then aren't all the other commandments hyperbole, too?
Thou shalt not covet...etc. etc. Impossible to live up to them, but these commands do set the standard for us, so we know what to strive for.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
I don't follow you, (gracia). One can't pray when one is, for example, unconscious. But I can't imagine anyone saying you sinned by failing to pray then. The commandment doesn't apply when you're out cold. So it doesn't literally mean "without ceasing," if it's a command given to each of us individually.
Which, as I said, I don't think it is. "Thou shalt not covet," on the other hand, is given to each of us individually. The command is in the singular, not the plural. So we're expected to refrain from coveting. And I don't see any reason to believe that it's impossible to refrain from coveting, any more than I would say it's impossible to refrain from murder.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
I guess you're saying that since "pray without ceasing" was given to a body of believers instead of to each individual (historically), that makes it a qualitatively different "command" than the 10 commandments per se.
My point is that it is no more possible to obey all the commandments than it is to obey Paul's instruction, so I don't accept that "pray without ceasing" is too demanding to be considered as an individual requirement (because I do believe that the 10 commandments are, also, though they are a standard to measure our actions by).
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (gracia):
I guess you're saying that since "pray without ceasing" was given to a body of believers instead of to each individual (historically), that makes it a qualitatively different "command" than the 10 commandments per se.
Yes.
quote:
My point is that it is no more possible to obey all the commandments than it is to obey Paul's instruction, so I don't accept that "pray without ceasing" is too demanding to be considered as an individual requirement (because I do believe that the 10 commandments are, also, though they are a standard to measure our actions by).
I'm still missing something, I'm afraid. Are you saying that you believe that God doesn't really expect or intend us to keep his commandments? Or that we're not capable of it anyway, so it doesn't matter what God expects or intends? Or something else?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (gracia):
I guess you're saying that since "pray without ceasing" was given to a body of believers instead of to each individual (historically), that makes it a qualitatively different "command" than the 10 commandments per se.
gracia, I think it's direction and instruction, not law. So yes, that is qualitatively different. Paul (and others, but mostly Paul) gave a lot of instruction to the nascent church - "this is how you walk it out" - and since his emphasized that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, that he wasn't establishing a new set of laws for the church to keep (obviously, ymmv).
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
This is going to come out wrong however I write it so Karl and Josephine please bear with me...
To return to the linkage or otherwise between those on the autistic continuum and PRWG, Mrs Black is a speech and language therapist and is frequently involved with under-5s who are on the continuum. One of the things which has deeply troubled her from time to time is the conflict between her evangelical faith and its insistence that we all have a PRWG on the one hand, and the fact that those individuals at the severely autistic end of the continuum frequently strike her as lacking the capacity to form a personal relationship (as most of us understand that) with anyone, including God/Christ on the other. The logical extension of the evangelical insistence on the PRWG is that such individuals are incapable of being saved, even that they lack a soul, a concept which, needless to say, both my wife and I find abhorrent in the extreme.
Both of us have found reading this thread a great relief and release from the above tyranny of logic, and my thanks to Josephine and Karl in particular for your candour and proof that "there's more than one way to skin a cat" on this issue.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Josephine said (a few posts back}
quote:
Yet, there is that man, when Jesus asked him if he believed, responded, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." And, for me, that's one of the greatest, most important, and most wonderful things about the Church. When I struggle to believe, I can go there, and stand in the crowd, and the faith and the prayers of those gathered there can carry me along with them. When the crowd starts moving, if I have just enough faith to put myself in it, I can be carried along. I only have to have enough discipline to go -- and knowing that there are people there who look for me to be part of the crowd helps me get there. And when I get there, when it's time to partake of the Eucharist, I only have to have enough faith to open my mouth. That's all. God, through the people he has gathered there, can take care of the rest.
It was this belief, which Josephine puts so much better than I can and the thought of the "crowd of witnesses" - living on earth and in heaven - that got me through a long, and dreadful period of dryness, despair and almost non-belief.
And hooray that Matt and Mrs Black are no longer bound by one definition of what it means to know God. And ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for your work, Mrs. B
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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