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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: It's not my fault I'm fat and broke!
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
On UK TV last night the Panorama program reported on the growing problem of people getting into debt above the breathing line and the conflict between lending responsibly and the pursuit of profits by the High Street banks.
Now everybody likes to go "Boo Hiss!" at the High Street Banks but it got me wondering. Just because I can borrow £125,000, simply because I can't resist borrowing £125,000 ... does that make it the Bank's fault if I keep raiding the candy store?
Likewise it troubles me that some obese people have started looking beyond their minds and mouths to the name on the packet for someone to blame and sue for their own lack of self control. Are we creating a society of helpless victims who will do anything EXCEPT look at their own behaviours?
[ 02. January 2007, 19:37: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Come on Hatless ... I'm not talking about those who are fat because of a medical condition or those who are broke because they don't earn enough to live reasonably comfortably. I'm talking about people who are fat because they can't resist sticky buns and people who are broke because they can't resist spending to the limit (even if it's a credit limit).
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
So why do some people choose to have a sticky bun or go shopping again? Few people decide they want to be fat, few people decide they want to get rid of more money. So what's going on? Are these people defective in some way? Are they lacking something? Are they bad people?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
Of course the final responsibility rests with the individual to behave sensibly. But there is still a moral onus on others not to exploit stupidity when they find it, isn't there?
I do think its worth exposing the behaviour of (e.g.) banks when they deliberately target tempting offers at people who's credit history shows them to be irresponsible, ignorant or unwary consumers.
Similarly, there's nothing wrong with food producers selling unhealthy food, and it's up to the consumer to moderate their diet. But when the producer tries to fool the unwary by pretending a product is healthier than it is, it's right to call them on it.
Both sides can be wrong at the same time, I think. And when one side is wrong out of stupidity or lack of expertise, while the other knows precisely what it is doing in pursuit of greater profit, then I know at which side I'd lay the most blame.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I'm a complex person Papio. Aren't we all? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) You can't reduce me to any political ideology. So, I support all the usually leftie causes ... (qualified) pacifism, internationalism, social justice, redistribution of wealth. However, on other issues I am markedly to the right ... eg., against abortion, in favour of private education (libertarian principle), insistence on personal responsibility. Sometimes the elements don't fit together too well ... but that's human as well.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
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Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Now everybody likes to go "Boo Hiss!" at the High Street Banks but it got me wondering. Just because I can borrow £125,000, simply because I can't resist borrowing £125,000 ... does that make it the Bank's fault if I keep raiding the candy store?
I quite agree that taking a loan you cannot repay is irresponsible. It is also true, of course, that when a bank loans money to someone who cannot repay, they are acting irresponsibly.
In the USA, credit card companies have very agressively sought out bad credit risks, and then got our enlightened legislature to rewrite the bankruptcy laws to bail them out from the excess of their cupidity.
ISTM that something like joint responsibility applies to the problem of obesity. Individuals are responsible for their own waistline -- but a food industry that markets nothing but empty calories to children is as culpable for their actions as is a pimp for his. No-one has to buy -- but that does not excuse the seller, either.
--Tom Clune
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
It's a complex matter of education, societal influences and willpower. There are also 100gazillion individual cases and circumstances too. But, to risk sounding like a grumpy old man, the old maxim of can't afford, go without is no longer in use.
[rant]
I discovered the other day I have a credit card from Barclays but have never had an account with them, I never signed anything, I never agreed anything. They tell me it is good to have a massive spending power, just in case (at whatever horrible percentage the repayments are). I have a massive overdraft limit that my actual bank regularly increases in an effort to get me to spend.
I was disturbed to discover that many of my neighbours don't actually own their own cars. Credit is the word, it seems.
[/rant]
If I spent all that 'available' money on food, well, that would suggest something about Father Gregory's OP
[I must be a slow typer! 6 posts pipped me!]
[ 03. July 2006, 15:08: Message edited by: PeaceFeet ]
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I think that's quite reasonable tclune. I suppose we have to work on all fronts ... but don't you think that the current tendency is to absolve the individual from rersponsibility? Families who let their children eat what they want all the time are just as much the abusers as those who relentless hawk their poisons on TV.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Few people decide they want to be fat, few people decide they want to get rid of more money. So what's going on?
Well, I suggest in a lot of cases, it comes down to a self-absorbed unwillingness to face up to the consequences of one's own actions. In the case of debt, some of the worst people for running up unmanageable debts are paid really very large salaries, they just can't (or won't) stop spending.
I wouldn't say this accounts for all people in debt, not by a long way, but it can't all be explained by saying that people in debt obviously don't earn enough to survive.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
My credit record is (for various reasons) absolutely appalling. It even repels Readers Digest, double glazing and timeshare salesmen.
I suppose the lesson is to screw things up then you will have little alternative than to live within one's means.
I do continue to have difficulty resisting the extra slice though.
[edit: spelling]
[ 03. July 2006, 15:13: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
The harder part is, IMO, to actually decide -- decide -- to become healthily trim, and debt-free, isn't it?
[ 03. July 2006, 15:21: Message edited by: The Riv ]
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
I think Tom has it -- the word "marketing" explains a large portion of the problems Fr. Gregory is referring to.
My father told me, many years ago, that when he was young, he was, by current standards, quite poor. Everyone around him was also poor. He was born in Mississippi in 1930. No one had money. He, in fact, considered himself well off, because he and his family had a solid, well built house, they always had enough food. The fact that he only got one pair of new shoes or trousers a year, no matter how much he grew that year, didn't matter to him. When the shoes no longer fit, he went barefoot. If the trousers were too short, oh, well. He had a warm bed and a full belly. Life was good.
But the reason, he said, that life was good, the reason he could see it as good, was that he didn't have television or magazines telling him how bad he had it, and telling him what he should aspire to. The images in his mind were built from what he saw around him, not what advertising and marketing people had created to put there.
The advertising and marketing industry spends many hundreds of billions of dollars every year with the express purpose of making people dissatisfied. They spend billions to make you decide that there is something wrong with your life, something wrong with you, if you don't have X or Y. And they do a terrific job of it.
So people buy larger and larger houses, filled with more and more stuff, because they have been persuaded that they must have it to be happy. Of course, it doesn't make them happy. But they believe it should, if only they get the right stuff. So they buy more, and more.
Over the last 50 years, even as families have gotten smaller, houses have gotten larger -- much, much larger. If you have a larger house, you need more stuff to fill it. So people have more stuff -- more of everything.
Think of what the media portrays as a typical family, a typical home, a typical lifestyle. If you believe that's typical, you think you should have it, too. You can't really afford it, you don't need it, you may not even truly want it, if you think about it. But you don't think about it. You respond based on the worldview that you have absorbed from the messages presented to you daily by people paid and trained to alter what you think and what you do, for their own benefit. Not for yours.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Great post, Josephine. That all sounds about right.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Yes, Josephine ... I must accept the force of that. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) It's a long time now since I read Vance Packard's "The Hidden Persuaders" but his analysis was and is timely. I suppose we are not all awkward, critical non-conformists who fight the dragons of consumerism. Some people truly have been hijacked. Resistance isn't futile but some folk don't see the need to resist in the first place. This is the Happy Life. Things.
[ 03. July 2006, 15:31: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I think that's quite reasonable tclune. I suppose we have to work on all fronts ... but don't you think that the current tendency is to absolve the individual from rersponsibility?
No. I think in the past, the blame has always been upon the individual and is now righting itself to cover both parties. There may be some individual cases where it could be argued that it has swung too far the other way, but I don't think it is a general problem - at the moment anyway.
quote:
Families who let their children eat what they want all the time are just as much the abusers as those who relentless hawk their poisons on TV.
In a lot of families I know of, health problems and financial hardship go hand in hand. Part of this is down to cheap housing being, well, cheap with the various health problems that poor quality housing entails, but partly this is because nearly all cheap food is unhealthy. Lard is cheaper than olive oil, chicken nuggets are cheaper than real chicken, fresh fruit and veg is expensive and goes off quick - a big problem if you have no car and rely on a taxi to do the shopping; going two or three times a week is not possible - cheap bread lasts longer, but is unhealthy, the list is endless, cheap burgers are the ones with all the fat, same as cheap sausages.
Cooking properly on a low budget is more than possible; if one knows how to cook properly, but many people don't. Getting something out of the freezer and into the oven (gas mark 6, 20-25 mins) is their idea of cooking, and so the cheapest possible food is bought, and it is nearly always crap.
As Jamie Oliver said, if people did to the outside of their children's bodies the amount of damage that they did to the inside, then they would probably end up in prison for child abuse. The sad thing is, the knowledge of how to cook properly is lacking, and the cheap products in the supermarket are nearly always the unhealthy ones.
As for financial problems; I am in a position where I cannot even open a bank account due to past (and present) debts, largely connected with me going bust and not being able to afford to live, added to being very stupid with money whilst self employed, I can understand the problem that people have. Like Sioni, I do find it hard to resist that extra slice.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Well, the prevailing ethos of our society is that economic growth is always urgent and that having just a little bit more will make us happier.
I salute the noble work of those who reminds us just a crock of shit that really is.
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Come on Hatless ... I'm not talking about those who are fat because of a medical condition or those who are broke because they don't earn enough to live reasonably comfortably. I'm talking about people who are fat because they can't resist sticky buns and people who are broke because they can't resist spending to the limit (even if it's a credit limit).
Watch it now, Fr. G., you are starting to sound like a capitalist pig! I think I am albeit somehow a bleeding heart too (wanting somehow us to have social programs even if they are messed-up, which made me turn in my Libertarian Party card sadly).
I myself am fat but not broke. I fought for years to get out of debt. I lived on mac&cheese. I cried once when somebody stole my lunch at work out of the fridge at a CD plant since I did not have the money to buy a replacement lunch. I know what it is like to juggle bills and pray you have enough to make your rent. To use credit cards to buy groceries when you are flat out of cash.
I got to a point with careful planning...writing everything down I ever buy for years..montly on an excel spread-sheet. I visualised a good job where I didn't have to have a degree outside my high-school diploma. I went on interviews for jobs saying you must have a B.S., B.A. or higher degree...in shoes with holes in them literally (hidden at bottom, I walk on the outer ridges of my feet due to extremely high arches). I got bitched out by interviewers more than once for interviewing for a job that I did not have the qualificaitons for (degree mainly or sometimes experience). I got made fun of by them sometimes. I signed up for over 14 temp agencies at one time. Took Microsoft Office tests over and over to up my score.
I landed a good job...got laid off...then landed a better one due to having the good job on my resume and others...
All this planning, paying off my debt (didn't have cable for years...had only dial-up internet etc) made me a FREE woman. I have ZERO DEBT outside of good debt (mainly my mondo condo). My car is 100% completely paid off. It may have scratches all over it. It is a 1994 old Saturn SL1 with 4 doors, stick-shift. It goes 0 to 60 mph in like 10 light-years. I still drive it into the ground.
I still try to budget myself. I do have friends that are thousands and thousands of dollars in debt. They have all the latest cable channels...go shopping for things all the time. Spend spend spend. Some of them are not fat though, just broke.
I heard this saying and I think it rings true...if you took all the money in the world and divided it up evenly, the poor would stay poor and the rich would stay rich.
Now I must ignore the ship and make some cold-calls...quit writing exciting interesting threads people! I need to ignore this place! Must make more $$$money$$$ today. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
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Posted
Fr. Gregory,
can you provide some examples of obese people who sue food companies for the problems they are undergoing ? It's not something I've heard of before.
I'm no expert on this, but it seems to me that obesity has become more common not only due to changes in what sort of food is available, but also with the decline of manual work. The majority of British adults over 30 do not do any regular exercise; the percentage of those who do is tiny, perhaps as small as 10%. Nowadays most of us have to make a concerted effort to keep fit, as it isn't part of our work.
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If I had a coat, I would get it.
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
I often think of the things I could have owned but for eating out all the time. Even as I write this I am struck by the irony that my gf will be coming back momentarily with breakfast from a local biscuit place. The $8 she spends there could have bought 2 dozen eggs, a bag of flour, a 1/2 pound of sausage and a couple of pounds of potatoes. Is it our fault we are always broke, or the marketing department of Tudor's Biscuit World?
When I do eat fatfilled sugary snacks, I do not go out and exercise. Is it my fault I am fat, or is it the fault of Dolly Madison's evil marketing department? ?
It doesn't take an Alan Cresswell (i.e rocket scientist )to figure out who has the primary responsibility in these two situations. Granted, there are exceptions to the rule, but in most cases the person only has themselves to blame. Though some exceptions to the rule might also include tedious wording in loan agreements that are designed to keep the borrower in the dark about certain aspects of the loan agreement.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Duchess
Thank you for that. Please understand I am not refering to people who have difficulty making ends meet to survive on low income. I am talking about people who are addicted .. people who can't resist the "extra slice." I suppose by saying that I have swung the other way already. It is an addiction and the pushers should get their come uppance.
Dear Lady of the Lake
I think I am on dodgy ground here. This was a remembered case from a TV documentary but the old memory won't deliver the details I'm afraid. I think it had to do with a fast food chain.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
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Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
A class-action lawsuit was filed against McDonald's, charging them with knowingly imposing health risks on their customers, back in 2003. It was modeled on the lawsuits against tobacco companies.
The lawsuit has been tossed out, resubmitted, and tossed out again at least a couple of times. Google "lawsuit mcdonald's obesity" if you want details.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
The other night on the UK news they were observing 40 years of the advent of the credit card (American Express comes to mind). And then came some statistics of some scores of billions that the general public in the UK are now in debt to; unheard of 40 years ago. The report was suggesting that easy credit encouraged many if not most to borrow with little thought for the consequences.
Whereas in the 'good old days' hired purchase which was the nearest one could get to that kind of thing, was quite difficult to arrange and considered something of a risk if one weren't able to make regular payments (ie, the goods would be reclaimed).
My mother's of the school that just doesn't understand how people can use credit the way they do because 'debt' was a dirty word when she and my father were putting a home together. But now it's an acceptable, legitimate way of life if you want to live in a house, drive a car, get a university education or live a modern 21st century lifestyle.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
My point is still being missed. It's not about fault. Establishing where the fault is doesn't help deal with the problem. People choose to eat more than they should, but they don't want to be fat. They know that eating too much will make them fat, and that this is dangerous and unattractive, but still they eat too much. Why? What is going on?
People are not as free as we like to think we are. We are not always able to make the choices we should. Establishing fault and playing the blame game certainly does not help. We need a more subtle understanding of human nature.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
yes, it is up to us not to spend more than we can afford, but one of the things the TV program highlighted was the duplicity/hypocrisy of the banks
One person had 2 credit cards from differently named card companies but which were provided by the same bank.
He was sent a letter from one card saying "you are xx thousands in debt, pay now or else", and within a few days was sent a letter from the other company saying "please have a credit increase of xy thousand"
So in the space of a few days the same bank was chasing him to pay up, and encouraging him to spend more.
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Dear Duchess
Thank you for that. Please understand I am not refering to people who have difficulty making ends meet to survive on low income. I am talking about people who are addicted .. people who can't resist the "extra slice." I suppose by saying that I have swung the other way already. It is an addiction and the pushers should get their come uppance.
Dear Lady of the Lake
I think I am on dodgy ground here. This was a remembered case from a TV documentary but the old memory won't deliver the details I'm afraid. I think it had to do with a fast food chain.
I think that more education is needed. I voraciously read Suze Orman books I could not afford to purchase, but went to the bookstore and stood in the aisle reading. I figured she was an expert and a woman, so I should follow her advice. I applied it and got out of debt.
We need to make Suze Orman 411 available EVERYWHERE. That is my solution.
The other step, people having self-control and applying the principals of saving up, paying off debt etc...that only comes through the spirit of the wind. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My point is still being missed. It's not about fault. Establishing where the fault is doesn't help deal with the problem. People choose to eat more than they should, but they don't want to be fat. They know that eating too much will make them fat, and that this is dangerous and unattractive, but still they eat too much. Why? What is going on?
Much like cigarette smoking, eating too much and not exercising enough are choices one makes. You can't deny them the responsibility for their choices, but you can educate them to let them know the choices that they are making are bad. If someone gets involved in an automobile accident solely because they chose to drive at unsafe speeds, we don't blame the auto companies.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
What of those who are making a fortune supposedly selling the 'solutions' to these problems? They don't impress me either. One needs only look through the 'self help aisle' (where one can make a fortune catering to people who like to play at being mentally ill - providing the solution in the process, of course); the 'diet club' mind games where one needs 'the group'; etc., etc.. And those who get brainwashed become walking advertisements - even if they have little real success.
I loathe lawsuits, laws, and the like aimed at regulating people's behaviour - and Lord knows there can be very tragic, devastating reasons that one is fat or broke or both. I loathe stereotypes most of all.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
I had a "yoof of today" moment in the hair salon when it transpired none of the stylists under 50 had a clue how to cook. One girl in the confirmation class last year walked home alongside me and couldn't remember when she'd last done a 20 minute stroll. This clearly isn't just some ultra-disconnected underclass thing. There has been some kind of sea change where people eat mostly prepared and junk food, and exercise far, far less than a generation or two ago did as part of their regular routines.
I have a problem with a lot of the anti-fat propaganda as it frequently fails to make a distinction between a level of chunkiness that is widely seen as unaesthetic and actual health dangers. Hence the phenomenon of all those size-12 young women at work wittering on about silly diets when what they need (if anything) is a better exercise routine and healthier food. Dieting generally puts people in a state where all they can think about is food, and the buildup to dieting is buying some book by an orange-tanned charlatan pretending they have a real doctorate/medical degree.
I know precisely why I am a lardarse, and also why I am currently going down the less-is-more route - a load of trouble in my life such that frankly I'm lucky I found chocolate rather than crack cocaine, plus a bunch of health problems which decided to gang up on me the last few years. I also love healthy food and enjoy exercising, and know the difference between the real dangers caused by weight and the ones which are actually part of the poor food and unfitness which *often* go with it.
I'd definitely be up for teaching healthy cooking/budgeting/whatever to interested people if the church ever decided that was its territory. It would go well with churches (usually) letting AA/NA etc use their halls for meetings.
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
On UK TV last night the Panorama program reported on the growing problem of people getting into debt above the breathing line and the conflict between lending responsibly and the pursuit of profits by the High Street banks.
Now everybody likes to go "Boo Hiss!" at the High Street Banks but it got me wondering. Just because I can borrow £125,000, simply because I can't resist borrowing £125,000 ... does that make it the Bank's fault if I keep raiding the candy store?
If the bank offers to lend you £125,000 that you can not afford to pay back, then it is absolutely the fault of the bank. Banks are supposed to check the credit-worthiness of the loan, at risk of losing all the money to a bankruptcy - and if those taking out the loans can't repay, the banks aren't doing their job.
It is also (usually) the fault of the person taking out the loan for taking out a loan they can't afford.
quote:
Likewise it troubles me that some obese people have started looking beyond their minds and mouths to the name on the packet for someone to blame and sue for their own lack of self control. Are we creating a society of helpless victims who will do anything EXCEPT look at their own behaviours?
And compare the nutrition content between cheap and expensive meals...
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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dosey
Shipmate
# 10259
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
Fr Gregory, I thought you were a socialist? Recently, your posts remind me an awful lot of Melanie Philips (Peace Be Upon her).
I hope she burns in hell!!
I think its more to do with consumerism, which leads to more income which leads to more disposable income,which leads to higher comsumerism.
Posts: 72 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2005
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madteawoman
Shipmate
# 11174
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Posted
Interesting topic and interesting responses.
Can anyone explain why it is that someone who starves themselves or purges after eating has an illness, deserving of our sympathy and help, yet someone who overeats and doesn't throw up is a fat pig who deserves our condemnation? I agree with hatless that there are ususally real reasons why people overeat to the point of obestiy that go way beyond gluttony. I also think that temptation is a huge factor. We have to exert our willpower against overeating and overspending far more rigourously than someone who lives in a culture without access the amount of food and material goods that we take for granted.
If there were no advertising, there would be very little temptation. My level of willpower would be far less relevant, because there would be much less to resist. Instead we put ourselves foursquare inside the chocolate shop, lock the doors and say "Don't touch!" How sensible is that? Yet suggest a curb on advertising to the powers that be and all hell will break loose, for you would be arguing against the free enterprise narrative our society lives and shops by!
Posts: 1446 | From: by the fireside | Registered: Mar 2006
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
We must all take persoanl responsibility for what we do whether it involves borrowing money we can't afford to pay back, or overconsuming and underexercising our way to obesity. Yet it isn't quite so simple. When my parents were children before WW2 few working class people had a bank account. They lived from hand to mouth. They couldn't get credit except from unscrupulous loan sharks so for the most part nobody had any debt. They lived on poverty cooking usually involving cheap fatty cuts of meat with pastry made from lard and flour, all cheap ingredients. Nobody had a car, an electric hoover, a motorised lawn mower or an electric mixer. To go anywhere or do anything required physical effort. Most houses only had a coal fire with a damper to heat the water. So people expended energy to work and keep warm which today's world doesn't require.
In the post war era, my father got his own bank account in 1959 and bought his first house on mortgage in 1961. This was a big change. People could now borrow money from the bank, or if their bank credit was good obtain hire purchase on the explosion of new devices "essential" to a happy and prosperous home. The situation we see today is just the logical nighmarish final outcome of that major change. No longer do people have to "save up" as my grandmother always said if they want a holiday, a fridge when they became available in the early 50's or now, an ipod, dvd state of the art mobile phone etc.
Even people who work and earn good money and finance their debts buy now and pay later. If its desireable I must have it and have it now. While I opened this post saying I believe in persoanl responsibility, look at the way people are bombarded with the notion that they must have everyhing in order to be happy. look at the way they are bombarded with loan offers, credit cards, pay nothing for two years schemes and ask yourself: who is to blame for the unmanageable debt burden in this country? People are individually to blame but the financial institutions which make all this so easy for people and then torture them when they foul up have to take 50% of the blame. An acquaintence of mine ran up £74k in loans and credit cards because he get over his head with debt, borrowed more to clear it off, lived on credit cards because his income was going to service his loans In the end it all came crashing down and he was declared bankrupt and lost his house.
The big financial institutions make record profits year on year. They cancel billions of debt to third world countries, which I fully support, yet they hound an old man to suicide because he owes £35. They vent their spleen on vulnerable people who have no way of getting away from them. I believe its time for the government to intervene and enforce guidelines on how much people can borrow as a proportion of income. Those with debts over an unmanageable level should have a right to a write off of large amounts if they make the effort to pay some. And people who have no way of paying shouldn't be allowed credit. If this isn't done, the bubble will burst on all of us someday.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
... I believe its time for the government to intervene and enforce guidelines on how much people can borrow as a proportion of income....
No.
[ 03. July 2006, 23:33: Message edited by: duchess ]
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
... I believe its time for the government to intervene and enforce guidelines on how much people can borrow as a proportion of income....
No.
The government regulates banks and other financial institutions quite heavily. The government sets rules for interest rates, bankruptcy, and the like. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable for the government to say, for example, that loans exceeding a certain proportion of a borrower's income or assets can't be collected if the borrower should declare bankruptcy.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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dosey
Shipmate
# 10259
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
High consumerism and debt is GOOD for capitalism.
Papio, I'm not denying that. Though the question here is capitalism a good system? In principle it works fine. Though for me it is a little too dependant on infinite resources, which we don't have.
This would be avoidable if we invested in recylcing, yet capitalism doesn't wantthat,as it wants tomake the most amount of money quickly.
MOST (not all) systems are good, yet in practice they really don't work. That's because as humans we really can suck when it comes to greed.Why have more money than the GDP of some countries, and the answer is because they can.
Has comsumerism created more problems than it have solved. I honestly don't know,I don't havean ecomics degree...
Posts: 72 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
High consumerism and debt is GOOD for capitalism.
And whom is capitalism good for?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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muchafraid
Shipmate
# 10738
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Posted
I would like to first say "hi" since this is one of my very first posts on the ship. ;-)
I think that Father Gregory has pointed out a valid plight that society is facing right now. I would just like to shift some words around, if I may.
I believe that obesity and financial irresponsibility are the consequences of a much broader problem. Dependency. People who suffer from obesity are dependent on food (genius, I know). Even if they have lost control over everything else in their lives, they still have control over their health, even if the end result is destructive. People who borrow too much money and spend more than they have saved are dependent on the banks to supply the fast cash they need to buy whatever it is that they think will help them gain back that control.
You can't tell someone who is completely dependent on something to "take responsibility for yourself and see that the choices you are making are harmful." You could, but you'd get a glassy, empty stare (if you've ever confronted a loved one who is addicted to drugs or alcohol, you've seen the stare). If through whatever circumstance you have become THAT overweight or THAT financially unstable, it's impossible to see your own fault in it.
Obesity and overspending have become, to our society, illnesses much like drug abuse, alcoholism, bulemia, etc. "Get off your ass and get a job" isn't going to solve the problem.
- Mrs. Digory Kirke
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all the glory when he took our place
but he took my shoulders, and he shook my face,
and he takes and he takes and he takes...sufjan stevens
Posts: 256 | From: baltimore, md | Registered: Nov 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
primarily, the owners of the means of production.
Bingo-zingo. And it's to their advantage for us to buy more food and borrow more money. So they bombard us with messages telling us to do so. And by golly, it works.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I suppose this boils down to whether or not people can reform their own culture when facing down such huge commercial interests. Personal responsibility extends to this also ... unless we choose to become victims on this front as well. Political agitation, personal responsibility, alternative lifestyles, good education ... it's all part of the mix ISTM.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Look, I know the reason I'm fat. I'm fat because eating and chatting on the computer are more pleasant by factors of 10 than exercise. Plain and simple.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It also occurs to me that people who berate others for being fat tend to be people with extremely high metabolisms, and large amounts of self-righteousness.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Look, I know the reason I'm fat. I'm fat because eating and chatting on the computer are more pleasant by factors of 10 than exercise. Plain and simple.
But you make a damn good caser salad. And you have plenty of red wine. That is the important thing.
And I found a place at your table.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Honeybones
Shipmate
# 10603
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Posted
And I know why Im fat. Because I used to eat on auto-pilot and not think about the fact that two bowls of ice cream a day will make me fatter.
When you get up in the morning, do you think through the consequences of making and drinking coffee? No. You just do it. Thats how a person becomes obese. By not thinking, really by avoiding thinking. For years I purposefully did not think about what I was eating, I just ate for pleasure. To relax, de-stress, cover my feelings. Whatever. Getting into debt has just the same attitude, substituting money for food.
In the last eight months Ive lost some weight by changing the way I eat. But I dont think about food all the time. I think about how hungry I am all the time. I think about how good it feels to step on the scales these days. I THINK before every bite of food I take, about whether or not it is too much.
Why are so many people drowning in debt and obese? Because they mentally shift the blame onto someone/something else and happily continue with their destructive behaviour.
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I'm not kissing you no matter how many times you burp!
-SpiffyDaWondersheep
Everyone needs stories-to tell us how to live, and why.
Posts: 97 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
I don't care if someone is fat or not (or broke). It just seems strange to me that people can be so interested in eating mass quantities when food is personally not very interesting. In fact, hunger is a pain in the ass, demanding daily attention. That so many can find satisfaction and reward in something so mundane is beyond me. When used as compensation for depression or whatever, it's as though you would want to breathe more air because you've had a bad day.
All the requirements to keep this carcass animated are boring and to put yourself into debt so that it can be more decorated is simply bizarre. Doesn't anyone feel uncomfortable when they over-eat? Blah!
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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