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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: It's not my fault I'm fat and broke!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But there are many people who eat normally - indeed are half starved - exercise and aren't thin.
Much as I hate to agree with FFB, the old codger, that cannot be true.
Two people might eat the same amount and one lose weight and the other not, that's just because people are different.
But it is obviously and simply the case that is someone is consistently putting on weight (other than hydration) then they must be taking in more food than they are using. There is just no other possibility (unless they have invented the spontaeous generation of matter of course).
Someone might feel hungry and put on weight but that is because they, for what ever reason, want to eat more food than they are using.
I'm a lot fatter than you are, If I can belive your photos. And I am a fidgetter, with (as far as I know) a high metabolic rate. And I rarely feel hungry (in fact I don't remember ever feeling hungry at all until I was about 40 years old).
But I am fat because I eat and drink more than I burn off. Simple as that. There can be no other reason short of magic.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
quote:
Why can't we accept the fact that some people are large and some are small the way we accept blue eyes and dark eyes, tall and short, musical and tone deaf?
Well, Twilight, apart from it being bad for their health and society paying the cost of that (which is a glib answer, but possibly the one Fiddleback is thinking of - I'm not sure if he's from the UK or not and so whether or not he has a state-funded healthcare system that he doesn't want abused - I disgress), their friends and family have to cope with the impact of obesity on that person's life, which may involve stuff like small children not being able to play with their (grand)parent, through to trips, walks, excursions, in fact, daily living being restricted by the person's immobility, with the extreme of seeing them get self-induced illnesses, e.g. type 2 diabetes, which then cause them pain, discomfort, illness and depression - which the friends and family are obviously sympathetic to but also grieved by and hurt by as it's self inflicted. Extreme obesity can have a similar impact on a family as that tragic sight of a life-long smoker who still smokes despite having had lung-cancer etc etc. and who's got a voice box replacement. The difference is, although there may be psychological reasons for over-eating, food in itself is not addictive like nicotine, but that doesn't mean there aren't grounds for CBT etc.
My heart aches everytime my father-in-law loads his plate with cakes/cream/butter whatever, having just taken his insulin, and send an SOS prayer to God that he'll let him live to at least see his first grandchild, who we're planning but haven't conceived yet.
My skinny father lived to almost ninety, critical and cranky to all of us, grandson included, right up till the end. I loved him and was glad he lasted so long but I just can't buy into the idea that anyone owes it to other people to try and live as long as possible, particularly if you're asking someone to be hungry 24/7 just so that they'll be around for the annual family holiday events.
As for "society paying the cost", I used to hear that about smoking all the time. The truth is that while smoking and obesity can sometimes run up medical costs through related illnesses; these same illnesses cause people to die younger -- saving years and years worth of social-security, nursing home and medical costs that far overshoot the other costs.
Sooner or later we all die and, I've heard that over 90% of the average person's lifetime medical expenses are spent during his final six-months. That's true whatever the cause or the age.
I think it's really nobody else's business how much we chose to eat or smoke as long as we aren't forcing anyone else to do it.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Oh God. You had to bring in smoking. Now we'll have that argument on this trainwreck of a thread as well.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
Everyone should smoke more. Keeps you from getting fat.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
My heart aches everytime my father-in-law loads his plate with cakes/cream/butter whatever, having just taken his insulin, and send an SOS prayer to God that he'll let him live to at least see his first grandchild, who we're planning but haven't conceived yet.
Yes, but people make choices every day that carry risk, or may potentially shorten their life. Why get especially incensed about weight? Do you get similarly heartsore about relatives who enjoy white-water canoing, driving, rock-climbing (reputedly the most dangerous common sport in the UK), hillwalking, motorcycling, etc? What's so special about the unquantifiable risk accepted by people who chose not to be as fit or as thin as they could be?
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
OK, Ruth is right, this is one of those arguments that goes round and round and never gets anywhere (kind of like the treadmill at the gym) and has derailed a perfectly good thread, and I'm oneof the main culprits. Mea culpa. So I'm going to try not to post again unless somebody really, really annoys me.
For the record (so I can cut it out for reference the next time)
- I believe that losing or maintaining weight is more difficult for some people than for others, so smugness should be kept to a minimum.
- I think that when people, for whatever reason that seems good to them, prioritise other things above exercise and diet, they are making a valid choice and do not need to be patronised, lectured or told that not enjoying exercise is something they'd get over if only they tried harder.
- I agree with Twilight.
- I agree with what Telepath said about an eating-disordered society. Food simply should not be so fraught.
So there.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat and trimmed by OliviaG:
- I believe that losing or maintaining weight is more difficult for some people than for others, so smugness should be kept to a minimum.
- I think that when people, for whatever reason that seems good to them, prioritise other things above exercise and diet, they are making a valid choice and do not need to be patronised, lectured or told that not enjoying exercise is something they'd get over if only they tried harder.
Great summary, Rat. I would add that it seems to me very presumptuous for another person to assume they how and why an individual deals with these two points, since there are so many factors that may be private and hence unknown.
And I'm amazed that we made it to Page 6 without anyone saying gluttony is a sin. ITTWACW. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why not? Why do they deserve ridicule and censure?
Because we think they shouldn't be fat, of course. This is why I also point my finger, throw my head back and have a good, hearty laugh at the people in my office who smoke, the kids I treat who are addicted to heroin*, and anyone who speeds, jaywalks, bungee jumps or does rockclimbing. Don't they know how unsafe they are? Well, they will when they hear us cackle.
-Digory
*Oh man, there was this one girl that I was working with, 21 and with a kid, who was completely addicted to heroin and cocaine. Boy did I ever laugh in her face! Her arms were covered in abscesses and sores and she lived on the streets. How else would she have ever been motivated to change if it weren't for me laughing and pointing and making fun?
Apparently I should have laughed more though, because she died about a month ago. So now I just laugh in her mom's face, hoping that will help to make sure that she doesn't have any more loser drug-addict kids who die in the streets of Baltimore.
Ridicule is the only motivator we have, after all.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
this trainwreck of a thread
Trainwreck or not, it certainly is an exhibition of the ol' zeitgeist.
Some would say it answers the OP's question.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why not? Why do they deserve ridicule and censure?
Because we think they shouldn't be fat, of course. This is why I also point my finger, throw my head back and have a good, hearty laugh at the people in my office who smoke, the kids I treat who are addicted to heroin*, and anyone who speeds, jaywalks, bungee jumps or does rockclimbing. Don't they know how unsafe they are? Well, they will when they hear us cackle.
-Digory
*Oh man, there was this one girl that I was working with, 21 and with a kid, who was completely addicted to heroin and cocaine. Boy did I ever laugh in her face! Her arms were covered in abscesses and sores and she lived on the streets. How else would she have ever been motivated to change if it weren't for me laughing and pointing and making fun?
Apparently I should have laughed more though, because she died about a month ago. So now I just laugh in her mom's face, hoping that will help to make sure that she doesn't have any more loser drug-addict kids who die in the streets of Baltimore.
Ridicule is the only motivator we have, after all.
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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magdalenegospel
Shipmate
# 11619
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Posted
We are addicted to food. Without it, we die.
Just as painkillers produce a dependency that at a particular level becomes a problem, so too does food.
Not all people who take painkillers become addicted to them. Not all people who have the meningococcal bacterium develop meningococcal meningitis, even though 4 in 10 people carry the bacterium in their throats.
Some people do. No one knows why. Not all people to whom bad things happen get PTSD, but some do.
The mystery of Imago Dei is that we are all unique. We do not all respond in exactly the same way to exactly the same stimulus.
Some people are addicted to Grace, others can take it or leave it. Others don't care. Yet at some level we all need it.
Posts: 75 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
OK, I know I said I wasn't going to post again, and I'm not. But I just thought of something, with reference to Telepath's eating-disordered culture, and the our appetite related neuroses.
Mothers nowadays are recommended to breastfeed on demand (sorry, I have a very limited range of interests at the moment) - whenever and wherever the baby wants to eat, it should be given as much as it wants. Our breastfeeding support group is almost entirely taken up with new mothers panicking that their baby is either not getting enough milk, and won't thrive, or is getting too much milk and will get fat. It seems from talking to other mums that one of the main reasons people give up breastfeeding is that they are uncomfortable with not knowing how much the baby is eating, they want to be able to measure and control. The group organisers spend most of their time explaining that no, the baby will not overeat or undereat, it will take what it needs and not more or less*. One of the big advantages of breastfeeding on demand is that if the baby is allowed to regulate its own feeding, it has much lower chance of being unhealthily overweight, either in babyhood or later. A baby's appetite is uncorrupted.
So what is it we do to ourselves to turn happy babies eating what they actually need (and appearing to enjoy it!) into neurotic over- and under-eaters who spend their lives agonising over food?
* I'm sure there are individual instances where this is not true due to illness or some other problem. But as a rule.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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muchafraid
Shipmate
# 10738
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Posted
Originally posted by Fiddleback: quote:
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
But the foods you argue that "slobs" stuff themselves with (i.e., donuts, pastries, etc.), are the foods that contain addictive elements. Sugar has been proven to be addiction-forming. So, either acknowledge that the people with the weight issues you have been attacking can sometimes form dependencies on the foods that harm them, OR give some credit to the fact that there are many reasons people gain weight.
Regardless of whether it's donut-eaters or cancer strugglers or people with depression or couch potatoes - it's ignorant to make fun of them.
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all the glory when he took our place
but he took my shoulders, and he shook my face,
and he takes and he takes and he takes...sufjan stevens
Posts: 256 | From: baltimore, md | Registered: Nov 2005
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
What monster have I created? I never dreamed that this thread would inflate like this. It certainly reveals the sensitivity of these subjects in our culture. Sorry to interrupt.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Interesting that the discussion is far more heated about weight than finances. Why is that?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
Ah, good. I have been waiting to see if Fiddleback would repeat this tiresome, judgemental, crap that he has posted in every single thread he can about this sensitive subject. This is truly the most ignorant, bigoted statement I have read in ages on the ship. Well done.
I have been dx'd with something called Metabolic Syndrome. I got it treated and lost over 44 lbs. I had nightmares and such from my sugar levels going up and down. And no, I am not diabetec. But I could be if I just let things go.
This is a more common condition than anyone cares to realise. More common each and every day by the ubiquitous high-frutose corn syrup everything has in it these days. It is helped by cutting back on bad refine carbs and working out. I mainly got helped though by diabetec drugs.
I speak from experience on this topic. I do like to eat like a fat cow. And I enjoy doing so. But so did my wonderful Rev. Grandpa, who was thin as a stick his whole life (may he RIP).
There is much diversity on people's metabolic conditions. You sir, seem to enjoy posting hurtful drivel like this. A pity for a man of the cloth.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
Monosodium glutamate, anyone?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
Ah, good. I have been waiting to see if Fiddleback would repeat this tiresome, judgemental, crap that he has posted in every single thread he can about this sensitive subject. This is truly the most ignorant, bigoted statement I have read in ages on the ship. Well done.
Really? I can't think of any statement made by any shipmate at any time that was more bigoted, ignorant or prejudiced. In terms of sheer offensiveness, it is up there with the the most mindless statements posted by BNP trolls.
Can't someone please call him to hell?
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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magdalenegospel
Shipmate
# 11619
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Posted
He wants to be called to hell. Maybe if no one reacted to anything but his best behaviour he might improve.
Much as people in dire financial situations might improve if they were 'rewarded' for being 'good'. Instead of having pension funds raided.
I think the embarrassment around food but not money is that it's far easier to blame the economic variability etc than it is with food.
Posts: 75 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
Can't someone please call him to hell?
Oh, why bother, it's not worth the effort. He wants attention, or he wants to hurt people. Either way, why give him a platform? Best to ignore him, I reckon.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
Sugar is addictive. That is one reason it is the first thing to go when you start dieting, and it is the cause of most people's relapse. Once your body is used to a certain level of sugar, it causes cravings so as to maintain those levels. Heavy users frequently suffer withdrawal symptoms from lack of sugar.
Granted, the addiction and withdrawal is nowhere near as intense as with heroin or other drugs, but the physical and psychological aspects of addiction are there just the same.
As for overeating being anti-social -bollocks. Im my experience more people overeat at social gatherings than on their own.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hosting
Papio, magdalenegospel, and Rat: Either call Fiddleback to Hell or don't. But don't personalize your dispute with Fiddleback in Purgatory while you're trying to decide.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nonpropheteer:
Sugar is addictive. That is one reason it is the first thing to go when you start dieting, and it is the cause of most people's relapse. Once your body is used to a certain level of sugar, it causes cravings so as to maintain those levels. Heavy users frequently suffer withdrawal symptoms from lack of sugar.
Really? How very interesting, Nonpropheteer. And what are those symptoms? Do you think they are psychological or physiological? Remember that withdrawal from heroin causes symptoms not unlike a very heavy dose of 'flu for over a week.
quote:
As for overeating being anti-social -bollocks. Im my experience more people overeat at social gatherings than on their own.
That has been shown to be untrue again and again. People who eat socially, that is, sitting down at the table with family or friends, rather than munching in front of the telly or on the hoof, are less likely to be fatties. Most successful weight control programs don't do anything more than teach people good habits which can be listed simply as:
1.Don't buy too much (say no to BOGOF offers)
2.Cook from scratch every time
3.Eat three full meals a day sitting at the table.
But the fatties will always complain that they haven't got time to do all that.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Food Addiction Info:
Break Your Food Addictions (WebMD)
[ 08. July 2006, 08:03: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Hosting
Papio, magdalenegospel, and Rat: Either call Fiddleback to Hell or don't. But don't personalize your dispute with Fiddleback in Purgatory while you're trying to decide.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Sorry RuthW.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Er... lets try this again shall we? Food, unlike heroin, is NOT addictive. Being fat is a result of choice. It is anti-social. To compare yourself and your roly-poly chums to heroin addicts in your search for sympathy really is quite contemptible.
I notice how you neatly tiptoed past my mentions of people who speed, rock climb and jaywalk. Those actions are dangerous to one's health, and aren't addictive at all (even if we operate on your "food is in no way addictive" assumption). Why not ridicule the speeders and the jaywalkers? So that they're motivated to stop?
I find it hard to believe that anyone who laughs at someone who is overweight is doing so out of personal concern for their health. It's much more likely that the ridiculer is trying to feel better about himself.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Interesting that the discussion is far more heated about weight than finances. Why is that?
Maybe it is because we have quite any number of skinny shipmates but very few are not in debt to some degree.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I am no longer fat and nearly out of debt. My house is paid off and so is one of my cars - the other is at 0% interest.
Everyone needs a hobby but suing fast food is not a good one. I rarely eat hamburgers I don't cook myself and don't use credit cards for groceries...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
Why not ridicule the speeders and the jaywalkers?
I do, if there is is something funny about them. I defy anybody to put "fatman funny" into Google Images and not find something to laugh about. Fat people, indeed any grotesques have been thought funny for thousands of years.
Fiddleback is right. The reason people are fat in the Western World is that, for 99% of them, they eat and drink too much much and do too little exercise.
It;s the difference between not buying the Paul Newman 'eco-friendly' processed pasta sauce and instead making your own. It's the difference between having the third and fourth glasses of wine and stopping after the second. It's the difference between stuffing down huge amounts of food whilst not talking to anybody else just watching the telly and talking to someone whilst eating and realising you don't need any more food.
If you start making your own food instead of letting others process your meals for you, stop shovelling it in your gob whilst Big Brother is on and also start moving your legs once in a while during the day, then (if you don't drink a bottle of wine or six GIN's a day) you probably won't get too fat.
Cosmo
[ 08. July 2006, 22:47: Message edited by: Cosmo ]
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
I do, if there is is something funny about them. I defy anybody to put "fatman funny" into Google Images and not find something to laugh about. Fat people, indeed any grotesques have been thought funny for thousands of years.
Cosmo, I know that you are smart enough to understand that because something does happen is not grounds enough to say that it should. People have found humor in others' misfortune since forever, most likely (schadenfreude and all that). The argument being made over and over on this thread is whether or not this type of behavior is actually helpful to the overweight person's situation, or if it could in fact be more damaging.
I have yet to see an argument for how laughing in someone's face helps them or motivates them to be less fat. I have, however, seen several implicit, unintentional arguments for why laughing at someone is a legitimate way to handle insecurity.
quote:
The reason people are fat in the Western World is that, for 99% of them, they eat and drink too much much and do too little exercise.
Not, I notice, that they are simply not laughed at enough?
-Digory
[ 08. July 2006, 23:16: Message edited by: professor kirke ]
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
People have found humor in others' misfortune since forever...
But, of course! All good humour is based on the misfortunes of others. People can laugh at my big belly all they want, I'm proud of that puppy! I was tired of looking at my ugly feet and did something about it.
Oddly enough, it only swells when I'm into drinking beer [which I haven't been interested in for a couple of years], so it's shrunken considerably. Nothing else about my lifestyle has changed; still burn off massive amounts of calories on the job and park my sedentary backside in the evenings.
I don't understand the attraction to eating mass quantities. What's so interesting about ingesting animal and plant matter through a hole in your face? Nevermind the disgusting result a few hours later! Yuck! It's a nuisance and a chore, IMO. Somedays, I won't bother eating anything till the evening when the growling gets my attention. Maybe it's the large volumes of water I drink that kill the appetite. I hover around 215 lbs. and I'm perfectly comfortable with it.
[eta: I don't owe a blessed soul a single dime, even the $28 electric bill is paid. ]
[ 09. July 2006, 00:00: Message edited by: Gort ]
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Coming back to Britain for a few weeks after living in New Zealand, I am struck by the amount of 'victim mentality' to be observed in people around me.
When an accident happens, or some unplanned state of affairs (such as obesity) results, firstly there must be someone to blame. Secondly, the victim is seen as a morally good person, simply by virtue of being a victim.
This view of things lacks the mechanism for a person to choose to do a morally good act. According to this view, morally good people don't act. Things happen to them.
So if a person buys TV dinners from Tesco even though he has the vague idea that they're bad for him, it's entirely Tesco's fault.
Fitness is easy for me. OK, I cook from scratch, drink relatively little, and cycle about twenty miles a day. I am stick thin. If I wasn't doing any of those things I suspect that I would still be thin, although I would feel less healthy.
But it seems perfectly obvious to me that I am an exception; as a general rule 1) a normal balanced diet (and not any of this Atkins bollocks) combined with 2) regular exercise is going to result in a person not being overweight.
When my (formerly) fat neighbour's father had a heart attack my neighbour cut down on the booze, cut out bad food from his diet and, to use a Tebbitism - he got on his bike. The pounds fell off him. He got a grip - plain and simple.
I should add that I think it's perfectly possible to be a healthy fat person, just as it is possible to be healthy and very thin as I am.
[ 09. July 2006, 10:22: Message edited by: Cod ]
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Just a thought I am going to throw in here, that I don't know exactly what to make of, but anyway...
i am interested by the references in this thread to people's weight problems in the 'West'. The reason i bring this up is that obesity is practically non-existent in the Western country that I live in ie France. You very very rarely see extremely overweight people here - it just doesn't exist. True, you don't see overweight people in Mali, but I think it's more interesting that you don't see them in France ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) And it's not like the French don't eat a lot of food - the average French day is a small breakfast (bread and coffee), enormous lunch (meat and 2 veg, bread, salad, cheese etc) possibly an afternoon snack and light evening meal.
i suspect there are a couple of reasons for this. French people, i think, are more likely to know how to cook and use proper ingredients, and they appreciate quality over mere cheapness. Because people are brought up eating right and using good healthy ingredients, they never start the cycle of going on diets and confusing their metabolisms. Also they are more likely to sit down at the table and take their time over the meal instead of eating on the run (someone did a very interesting experiment once - I heard it on radio 4 so it must be true ![[Biased]](wink.gif) - they went in McDonalds restaurants in the US and in France and timed how long it takes people to eat the meal. The average French person takes twice as long to eat the food).
But I really think the main reason French people can eat a lot of food and maintain a healthy weight is that they just don't have all the hang-ups about food that Anglo-saxons seem to have. They know how to enjoy food without feeling remotely guilty about it and have a healthy respect for it. Food is their good friend and they have a long and happy cooperation
Red x
/hope this isn't too tangential but thought it was worth bringing up
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
If you start making your own food instead of letting others process your meals for you, stop shovelling it in your gob whilst Big Brother is on and also start moving your legs once in a while during the day, then (if you don't drink a bottle of wine or six GIN's a day) you probably won't get too fat.
Yes. If you do that, in all probability, you'll settle at a weight that is healthy and correct for your particular body.
Of course, unless you're very lucky, that weight won't fit societies preconceptions of what you should look like, so people will still feel entitled to sneer at you, accuse you of 'shovelling food in your gob', cast aspersions at your leisure habits, and generally deride and patronise you. Then, unless you're terribly strong minded, it'll be back on the starvation diet\overindulgence treadmill as you try to fit your square peg into our culture's round hole.
(Er... I'm not very sure about that last sentence. You know what I mean).
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ladyinred:
i am interested by the references in this thread to people's weight problems in the 'West'. The reason i bring this up is that obesity is practically non-existent in the Western country that I live in ie France. You very very rarely see extremely overweight people here - it just doesn't exist. True, you don't see overweight people in Mali, but I think it's more interesting that you don't see them in France And it's not like the French don't eat a lot of food - the average French day is a small breakfast (bread and coffee), enormous lunch (meat and 2 veg, bread, salad, cheese etc) possibly an afternoon snack and light evening meal.
Actually, that is very true. I worked in France for a couple of months and was very struck by the lack of really fat people, and also by the amount of food people ate. Wonderful lunches in the absolutely brilliant company canteen, and I never saw anybody picking at a lettuce leaf because they were 'on a diet'. The first few times I tried to wriggle out of having a starter and dessert, people actually laughed. I soon gave up and went with the flow.
What I did notice, though, was that people seemed to spend time thinking through their meal, and balance it a lot more than we do in the UK. So if they had a cheesy starter, they'd have fruit for dessert; if they wanted a rich dessert they'd have a salad starter and a lighter main course. They might have chips one day, but not every day, and generally seemed much more aware of and thoughtful about what they were eating. Here we seem to to only have the extremes of food puritanism versus complete carelessness. The French I worked with seemed to be able to combine great enjoyment with good health.
I was eating in hotels, restaurants and the wonderful canteen, and drinking wine regularly, normally a recipe for weight gain - but came back home exactly the same weight as I went away. If I'd cut out the wine I'd probably have lost weight.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
I wonder if there's also something in the fact that the main meal in France (and Spain as well, which IIRC also has fewer obese people than the Uk and USA) is taken at midday, rather than in the evening?
I have heard/read some things that said that eating late at night results in more weight gain because the body doesn't digest properly before we go to sleep. I don't know if that's scientifically proven or not, but I thought I'd throw it into the discussion.
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
I have yet to see an argument for how laughing in someone's face helps them or motivates them to be less fat.
Although I have already given you the example of Nigella's dad. He got so fed up with the Hon member for Bolsover shouting out "Who ate all the pies?" every time he stood up in the House, he did something about it and lost weight. It does work, I promise you.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
I have yet to see an argument for how laughing in someone's face helps them or motivates them to be less fat.
Although I have already given you the example of Nigella's dad. He got so fed up with the Hon member for Bolsover shouting out "Who ate all the pies?" every time he stood up in the House, he did something about it and lost weight. It does work, I promise you.
Nigel Lawson decided to lose weight when his doctor scared him with stories of what might happen if he carried on as he was.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by professor kirke:
I have yet to see an argument for how laughing in someone's face helps them or motivates them to be less fat.
Although I have already given you the example of Nigella's dad. He got so fed up with the Hon member for Bolsover shouting out "Who ate all the pies?" every time he stood up in the House, he did something about it and lost weight. It does work, I promise you.
Wow, n=1! This is what Stephen Colbert refers to as "a margin of error of +/- the facts."
quote:
Originally posted by ladyinred:
The reason i bring this up is that obesity is practically non-existent in the Western country that I live in ie France. You very very rarely see extremely overweight people here - it just doesn't exist.
My mother-in-law knew a woman who moved here from France who was stick thin. She had stuck to a diet of bread and cheese while in France, for the most part. Upon moving here (to the US), she changed nothing about her diet, and gained 30 pounds in a month or so.
For whatever reason, it seems like a lot more of the food here is unhealthy. And to be honest, the OP's dual problems go hand in hand--it is expensive to eat healthy!
These aren't excuses, but they are reasons for understandable aversion, in my opinion.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I don't quite understand the 'it's expensive to eat healthily' comments.
In my own experience (and that's all it is, I make no universal claims), it is much cheaper to buy good basic ingredients and cook them than to buy ready-made meals.
I understand that in some areas it can be difficult to find a shop that sells basic ingredients, but that's a different argument.
Whatever the spirit of the times, people do have personal responsibility. Of course, some people will have particular health problems but I would guess to be the minority, not the majority. Otherwise, there must be an epidemic of these problems that we never saw in the past.
Mr M. tells me that the 8 Logismoi (Evagrius'forerunner to the 7 Deadly Sins) are more about underlying preoccupations or predispositions than individual sins. Gluttony is a preoccupation with food rather than just eating too much. One way and another, whether we eat too much, too little or just think about it all the time, parts of the West are certainly subject to the logismos of gluttony.
It is not healthy.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by xSx:
I wonder if there's also something in the fact that the main meal in France (and Spain as well, which IIRC also has fewer obese people than the Uk and USA) is taken at midday, rather than in the evening? I have heard/read some things that said that eating late at night results in more weight gain because the body doesn't digest properly before we go to sleep.
I've heard this also, but the reason given was that by eating our 'main' meal at midday we are more likely to burn up the calories in activity during the afternoon, whereas we are less likely to be as physically active following a more substantial evening meal (since it is the evening and most people are thinking pub/TV/bed/relaxing generally in the evening).
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
I'm dyspraxic, which is a bit like a physical version of dyslexia - i'm never going to be fast, graceful, or able to catch & throw, regardless of the training i do. I've also been clinically depressed most of the time since at least my first diagnosis age 14. I hated all sports for years. You know that fat kid who was last to be picked for teams, then got beaten up for being crap? that was me.
I ended up going through compulsive eating at school, being very overweight, and then anorexia - there's not a lot of difference, and it didn't seem to stop people wanting to kick my head in when i was thinner either. Abused running as just another form of self-harm during anorexia - it's actually rather physically damaging to run if you aren't eating properly. Ended up in hospital (thereby costing the NHS a fair amount), got better, but had to stop running for a few years as i'd done too much physical damage and it was just too easy to use it to hurt myself with it. Few years later, i was doing lots of walking to get me out of a house where there were many arguments, and thought i might as well try running again.
These days, I'm a competitive club runner, mostly ultra-distance & fell (i do stuff like double maras & running up mountains). This time in a fortnight, i should be starting my 10th mara as part of my first long-course ('Ironman') triathlon. Spent a year on the Uni rowing squad where i was one of the club's fastest ergo rowers (the other fast girl sculled for England). Got a wall full of medals, some of them even for being placed, and a cupboard stuffed with race T-shirts. I can talk the hind leg off a donkey debating the merits of isotonic vs hypotonic drinks, with or without various electrolytes, can tell an overpronator from a supinator at 100m, and i'm even starting to learn what some of the bits on my bike are called (only started Tri 2 months ago when a friend needed more race entries). In short, i've turned into one of those stupid sports-obsessed freaks. I'll never be fast, but sheer bloody-mindedness and training harder than anyone else will get you a long way.
You know what? It's just a hobby. There is nothing that makes my 30-mile weekend long runs morally better or worse than a friend spending the time watching Stargate. I haven't all of a sudden got stupider, and nor am i some sort of a superhuman.
While we're on the subject, then triathlon's frighteningly expensive - i've borrowed most of the kit but it still requires worrying amounts, and it's very difficult to find any kit that's made in decent working conditions. If you're going to slag off fat people for eating too much and not sending the money to the poor, how about selling your race bike, or just entering a few less events? Running's more cost-effective but with 4 pairs of shoes at £60 each every year, that's still a lot of vaccines to Africa i could buy with the money. A sport-honed body is at least as much a sign of affluence as being overweight.
Running isn't actually that good a way to loose weight, because you end up getting hungrier when you run so it's quite easy to put on weight through running. the only time i actually loose weight through excercise is serious ultra or tri training when i can be using upwards of 2000 cals a day extra - it's just difficult to physically get that much down, especially when you're tired and spare time is spent training. That's just not possible to do without several years of solid aerobic base beind you though - the sort of beginners run/walk programmes that non-excercisers will need to start out at won't actually burn that many calories to make much difference. Running does help with weight maintenance - apart from anything else, you end up craving proper fuel instead of junk, and eating well will noticeably make your next run feel better, so it becomes a pleasure instead of a chore. Running's also helped my self-confidence, i've made some good friends from it, and it has done muchly good things for my mental health (not enough to come off meds though). But for other people these things could come from any community activity - equally amateur dramatics as excercise.
Please don't start telling me that exercisers cost the NHS less. Runners actually seek medical help slightly more frequently than most of the population (i'd guess from a combination of injuries, and being more aware of their bodies - i'll notice a slight cold slowing me down over a 10-miler that someone sitting at a desk wouldn't be bothered by). And that's without thinking about serious sports-related accidents - a friend spent months in hospital after being seriously injured in a cycling accident - not his 'fault', but still cost the NHS a fair bit.
'Looking thin' has less to do with weight than you'd think. Even when i was around 50% of a healthy weight and had to go into hospital i was still a size 12 (UK) - that's what a few generations of Prop Forwards in the family will do for you.
Oh, and I_Am_Not_Job - if tri's so wonderful, and the only reason people don't do more exercise is 'cos they're too lazy or stupid to realise how good it is, when's your first long-course tri? ('Ironman' is a brand name used by a smug profit-obsessed franchise - if you care about your sport, support grass-roots events). Or how about maras - hope you've not done less than me, or less far (longest continuous race to date being 55 miles - i came 3rd F) If a 22-year-old depressed dyspraxic can, why not you? why not? eh? eh? EH?
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
Oh, and if i take certain prescription meds, i put on weight. running 70 miles per week, or 15 hours per week of triathlon training, doesn't seem to make much difference. Keeping calories in - calories out balanced slows down weight gain on the meds, but doesn't stop it (and it's not that i'm eating more stuff & not counting it - apart from anything else it can be quite difficult for me to just eat up to the 3000+ cals/day i need for hard training).
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I don't quite understand the 'it's expensive to eat healthily' comments.
The other side of this is that it is expensive in time, not just cash. If people are working long hours, with little money coming in, they may not have the time to prepare healthy meals, and so the ready prepared ones are easier.
The reasons for people being both poor and overweight are very complex, inter-related, and nothing like as simplistic as some people suggest.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The other side of this is that it is expensive in time, not just cash. If people are working long hours, with little money coming in, they may not have the time to prepare healthy meals, and so the ready prepared ones are easier.
No. They're just too fecking lazy. They've got time to watch telly and fart about on the computer.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LatePaul:
Nigel Lawson decided to lose weight when his doctor scared him with stories of what might happen if he carried on as he was.
I'm sure Mr Skinner assisted him in making that decision. Anyway he made the rest of us laugh.
[fixed code]
[ 09. July 2006, 20:51: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I agree, Fiddleback, it doesn't take much time to prepare healthy meals.
How long does it take to make a salad? Or a stir fry? No longer than it takes to put a packet in the microwave or oven and wait.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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