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Originally posted by MouseThief:
Why don't the atheists make one? I understand the gay thing because most teenage people aren't even sure about their sexuality, and the "reverent/duty-to-God <> gay" thing is debatable.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
It's impossible to chide anybody for a lack of "athiest love," isn't it?

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I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating, drenched as it seems to be in sarcasm.

Would you please explain?

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Originally posted by benjdm:
Gay people are not rejected because of the reverent thing. Gays are obviously incapable of being morally straight.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Christians are expected to show "Christian love" because we are exhorted to "love our neighbors as ourselves."

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Well, I'm your neighbour, and I'm not feeling your Christian love, TubaMirum.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Well, I'm your neighbour, and I'm not feeling your Christian love, TubaMirum.

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Why not? What have I done?

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I'm putting my neck out here.

If you need me, an atheist, to tell you what Christian love should feel like, I think we’re in trouble. But, since you ask, I’d presume love to manifest itself as tolerance and understanding when your neighbours complain of feeling discriminated against- not steadfast denial and endless counter-argument that they even should. To me, love would imply kindness, empathy, consideration, even trust, that your neighbour is sincere in his feelings, and a willingness to seek resolution. Instead, I just feel antipathy and intransigence. But that’s okay. I won’t be crying myself to sleep or anything.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Originally posted by MouseThief:

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Originally posted by benjdm:
Gay people are not rejected because of the reverent thing. Gays are obviously incapable of being morally straight.

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I've already addressed this. You may want to scroll up.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
Ah, you were unhappy because I wasn't complete enough in my statement? Okay how does this suit:

All the religious requirements of the scout oath and law do not of themselves preclude homosexual scouts.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:

It's impossible to chide anybody for a lack of "athiest love," isn't it?

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
If you need me, an atheist, to tell you what Christian love should feel like, I think we’re in trouble. But, since you ask, I’d presume love to manifest itself as tolerance and understanding when your neighbours complain of feeling discriminated against- not steadfast denial and endless counter-argument that they even should. To me, love would imply kindness, empathy, consideration, even trust, that your neighbour is sincere in his feelings, and a willingness to seek resolution. Instead, I just feel antipathy and intransigence. But that’s okay. I won’t be crying myself to sleep or anything.

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Originally posted by Mad Geo:
The difference is that atheists/nontheists don't treat their humanism like a marketing gimmick and wave it around like the flag like Christianity does.

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Originally posted by Mad Geo:
That's pretty funny actually. As someone once said: Those that behave just to get into heaven, have no values. "Love thy neighbor" indeed. As long as "thy neighbor" is one of those particular genders/creeds/breeds that we approve of, of course.

It's been my observation that many atheists.nonthiests are humanists which affirm the dignity and worth of all people.

Speaking for myself, I respect the Christians that apply their "love thy neighbor" principle wholeheartedly. It has been my experience that they are rare, but they do occur, and many of them on the Ship.

The difference is that atheists/nontheists don't treat their humanism like a marketing gimmick and wave it around like the flag like Christianity does. Pretty hard to do while hiding what you are from the Christians anyway.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
But the religious ones do.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
You will persist in misreading me, benjdm. I ask you to stop.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
...you can feel free to use other people's known standards against them - but that since others have no idea what any particular atheists' standards are, they can't do the same thing.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
All that in order to avoid the actual point, which is that you can feel free to use other people's known standards against them - but that since others have no idea what any particular atheists' standards are, they can't do the same thing.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
So, I'm afraid you have to judge us individually, on our individual merits, and abandon your presumptions about us as a group.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Dogwonderer, but it wasn't intentional.

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Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Perhaps you fail to see that treating people like shit while flag waving a creed that says the opposite (or whatever) is worse than saying nothing at all. I can see how you might want that to be, but I'm, afraid the rest of the world doesn't see it your way.

While I am not thinking MT is a hypocrite, I can respect his understanding of how others might view that as hypocrisy.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I don't and can't have any presumptions about atheists as a group, since atheists don't have anything in common, necessarily. That's the whole point.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Why are you making out that we are so completely different and that I'm one of the "persecutors"? It's insulting, frankly.

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Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
The fact that it is possible to use the word `atheist' of some particular set of people implies that there is at least some commonality of viewpoint, surely? In any event, I'd be inclined to think that there's as much commonality in theological belief among atheists as there is among those people who describe themselves as `Christians'.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:

I think one of the problems here is when one person decides for another how thick their skin ought to be.

I think there should be a Golden Rule of discrimination: If a person feels discriminated against (rightly or not), it may be more prudent not to contest this fact by disputing the validity of their feelings or by criticising their sensitivity threshold. I cannot imagine this would often be very constructive, and I suspect it would generally reinforce their sense of being discriminated against. Pointless, really.

Love is good, though.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:

But I don't consider it wrong on principle for a private group to have bizarre membership criteria. That's just part of the right of peaceful assembly....

....Which immediately raises the question of groups that want to keep out blacks or Jews or disabled people, which I do consider wrong on principle. Making me either hypocritical or wishy-washy depending on how charitable one is feeling.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Stop pretending I'm saying anything about "creeds," please. I'm disagreeing with you on a topic that I have personal experience of myself. Stop making out like we're different species so you can play the put-upon victim.

I don't agree with you on this particular topic; neither do about fifty other people, both current and former atheists. You apparently can't handle that except by attempting to smear me in as many ways as you can think of.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
..unfortunately I think you're in the crossfire. But I never meant most of these comments against you at all.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I can see that, and I regret it.

But discrimination is such an emotive issue, I'm like a dog with a bone: I just won't let go. The princple is so important to me. If there's one thing mankind ought to have learnt by now, discrimination on religious grounds is simply unacceptable. I'm honestly surprised by anyone who even offers a counter-argument to this. Especially someone who belongs to one of the most discriminated-against groups in history.

Intolerance cannot be tolerated.

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Originally posted by Mad Geo:
DW, Benjdm, myself, and others are the CLEAR minority here, so having numbers on your side and taking it as some kind of Manifest Destiny that you are right is a wee bit, well, hillarious. Good luck with that.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
Why don't the atheists make one? I understand the gay thing because most teenage people aren't even sure about their sexuality, and the "reverent/duty-to-God <> gay" thing is debatable. But "reverent/duty-to-God <> atheist" is hard for me to argue with.

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
Judging from some of the confusion on this thread, you may want to rephrase your statements for those not familiar with <>, the not-equal operator from Pascal.

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Originally posted by Mad Geo:
A moment of levity in an otherwise non-levity thread.....

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I live in Lancaster, PA. Yeah, I'm talking about the place where thousands of people are partying like it's 1699. Ok, so most people around here aren't Amish, but the red here is deep and dark. 75% of my relatives the women wear coverings and the men drive black cars. In their churches, the women sit on the one side and the men sit on the other (in order that they don't have sexual thoughts during prayer service. I'M NOT KIDDING!!!) Coming out scares me to death. I envy you people who live in areas of the world that are so tolerant to individual beliefs.

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Its scary as hell coming out in a red state like MO. But I did indeed do just that. Here is my letter to the editor called, "The New Brights, and Why I Am One Of Them."
I understand that many have issues with the term Bright, but my local paper would not print anything I wrote with Atheist in it. So I altered it a bit, and got a response. They have confirmed that I wrote it, and said they plan on printing it. Only time will tell

I am a liitle nervous, but all in all pleased with what I have done.

Here is the Editorial I wrote,

What is a Bright you ask? According to the Brights Web site http://www.the-brights.net , a bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview. Whose worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements. In a nutshell, we do not believe in a god or gods. Brights are individuals who do not think alike on many issues, and it is not our desire to press for conformity.

My journey to becoming a bright started long ago. I have always been skeptical and inquisitive. So when my questions about god or the bible were unanswered or answered with, "God works in mysterious ways," I would walk away frustrated, angry and dejected. As I became more educated I learned of many other religions and many other ways to view the world. With this knowledge I was forced conclude, they all can't be correct.

So who was right? Talk to a Christian and they will tell you, they have the one true path to God. Ask a Muslim, they will tell you that they have the one true path, etc.... This was no help either. So I read the bible, and the more I read, the more I was aghast at the cruelty and vengeance of God in the Old Testament. But when you are dead in the Old Testament, that was it. The New Testament God, while he has a great many lessons to teach, wants to punish you forever if you choose not to believe. This did not sound like a God of love to me.

All of this led me to become an agnostic. I felt that I could not prove whether god exists or not. Nor could anyone else for that matter. So agnosticism seemed the correct decision.

Then Amendment 2 (www.missouricures.com) became a huge issue in our state. I am a proponent and a staunch advocate for all forms of stem cell research, and was a member of the Missouri Coalition For Life Saving Cures. I would argue with opponents, and the one constant attack on the research was that it was against God's will. I would ask, how do they know? Former Senator and Episcopal Minister John Danforth, says otherwise. Of course I would ask Senator Danforth the same question.

I could not understand how one could make that argument, when they can not prove that God even exists. They were arguing on faith. All other arguments are easily countered because of science. This attack by the religious on the potential cures that could from stem cell research, was the tipping point for me. I began to read and study once again, and this time I read a book, called the God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, and The End Of Faith by Sam Harris, Atheism, A Case Against God by George Smith, and many many more.

The more I read, the brighter I became. The more knowledge I consumed about astronomy, biology, physics, geology, etc..the less and less the probability of the existence of god became. I became a bright, because my worldview does not include any supernatural or mystical elements. If you want to believe in the supernatural,that is your choice, just don't try to legislate it.

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I've always been an extremely vocal and unapologetic atheist, but I've also always recognised that to be so isn't easy for everyone. The anti-atheist prejudice is real, and in some areas quite vicious. So I'll wear the shirt as an expression of solidarity with those people more than as a personal expression of belief (or lack of) And also because I agree with Richard when he says, "We need to stand up and be counted, so that the demographically savvy culture will come to reflect our tastes and our views. That in turn makes it easier for the next generation of atheists."

Those of us who grew up in the relatively enlightened post-war era, in which religion was very much in retreat in the west, have been complacent. That has allowed the madness to take root and thrive again. No more complacency. This is worth shouting about.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
Judging from some of the confusion on this thread, you may want to rephrase your statements for those not familiar with <>, the not-equal operator from Pascal.

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How about actually pointing out some of the "confusion," or perhaps making an argument?

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
God, I hate the term "bright". If you need proof that atheists can be just as stuck-up as Christians, there it is. It has a twang of 1984 about it too. I understand the circle-the-wagons mentality, but if you're trying to show that you're an integral part of society and just like folks, picking a word that says "we're smart and you're stupid" isn't terribly, well, bright. "Fight prejudice with prejudice" so seldom achieves good effects.

I agree that making life hell (or even purgatory) for atheists whether young or old is not acceptable behaviour. Can't we all just get along? Having a close family member (stepson) who is an atheist, I try to speak out for atheists, particularly against the idea that they can't be good moral people. Everybody has the right to decide for himself (or herself) what they believe. (Yes, I know, some of you will say you don't "decide" but let's not do semantics, eh?)

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
I was hoping that Mousethief would clarify things himself, but it looks to me like he is saying that being gay shouldn't be against the Boy Scouts' stated rules (though obviously the Scouts themselves believe otherwise), but that atheism was obviously against the Boy Scout oath any way you slice it.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to do a "we're-so-much-smarter-than-you" bit. I just thought the Pascal reference was a little obscure.

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
I was hoping that Mousethief would clarify things himself, but it looks to me like he is saying that being gay shouldn't be against the Boy Scouts' stated rules (though obviously the Scouts themselves believe otherwise), but that atheism was obviously against the Boy Scout oath any way you slice it.

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Apologies....

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
I was saying that I don't see how being gay precludes being "morally straight" (or vice versa). I think it's apparent that being an atheist precludes being "reverent" and doing one's "duty to God."

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