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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Are atheists a persecuted group?
TubaMirum
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But here's my question, now that we're on the topic: why are you guys taking this so personally?

Why, for instance, does the fact that the Boy Scouts exclude gays and atheists somehow imply that they "do not consider non-theists or homosexuals capable of making ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes"? That's just another bunch of overheated rhetoric.

Furthermore, even if the above were true, why do you care what they think? They're obviously wrong, so what difference does it make if they're jackasses on this topic?

Here's the plain facts: some people are assholes. And some people - sometimes the same people - don't want you around; they'd rather be assholes and gather together in groups to be assholes.

So what?

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Nice.

That's funny, the quote I heard was

"Sarcasm, intellect on the offensive"

Well, true: it's often offensive; you don't see much of the "intellect" part, though.
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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
But here's my question, now that we're on the topic: why are you guys taking this so personally?

Hath not an atheist eyes? hath not an atheist hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison
us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not
revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will
resemble you in that. If an atheist wrong a Christian,
what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian
wrong an atheist, what should his sufferance be by
Christian example? Why, revenge. The villany you
teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I
will better the instruction.

[Apologies to Bill].

--------------------
این نیز بگذرد

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Hath not an atheist eyes? hath not an atheist hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison
us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not
revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will
resemble you in that. If an atheist wrong a Christian,
what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian
wrong an atheist, what should his sufferance be by
Christian example? Why, revenge. The villany you
teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I
will better the instruction.

[Apologies to Bill].

Let me ask again: why are you offended by what you think the Boy Scouts of America thinks about you?
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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Let me ask again: why are you offended by what you think the Boy Scouts of America thinks about you?

Because it is a false and hypocritical presumption that I eat babies. I am not necessarily better or worse than any theist, as a human, just because I am an atheist. Hence the adapted Shylock quote. I should have thought this was something you could easily relate to.

--------------------
این نیز بگذرد

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
But here's my question, now that we're on the topic: why are you guys taking this so personally?

Why, for instance, does the fact that the Boy Scouts exclude gays and atheists somehow imply that they "do not consider non-theists or homosexuals capable of making ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes"? That's just another bunch of overheated rhetoric.

They hold that non-theists or homosexuals cannot be good enough citizens to be part of their mission. It's not overheated rhetoric.

quote:
Furthermore, even if the above were true, why do you care what they think? They're obviously wrong, so what difference does it make if they're jackasses on this topic?

Here's the plain facts: some people are assholes. And some people - sometimes the same people - don't want you around; they'd rather be assholes and gather together in groups to be assholes.

So what?

The BSA is an integral part of American culture. The assholes are held up as exemplary organizations of our culture. The activities of sons in the BSA was the main topic of conversation among the fathers at the local poker game last week. At the 4th of July town celebration, three groups did the opening ceremonies: the BSA, the VFW, and the American Legion. To the VFW's credit, they started allowing atheists to join in 2004. The American Legion and BSA both consider atheists second class citizens (the American Legion never admits that the plaintiffs in the Mt. Soledad cross case are veterans but does allow them to join.)

Why should I find it acceptable to be considered a second-class citizen ?

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Let me ask again: why are you offended by what you think the Boy Scouts of America thinks about you?

Because it is a false and hypocritical presumption that I eat babies. I am not necessarily better or worse than any theist, as a human, just because I am an atheist. Hence the adapted Shylock quote. I should have thought this was something you could easily relate to.
Nobody said you ate babies. That kind of rhetoric is not very helpful; it's sensationalistic and everybody knows it's untrue and over-the-top. (And it was at one time responsible for pogroms and mass murder and mass forced evacuations. Is there really anything like that going on here?)

And no, I don't care what the Boy Scouts thinks about homosexuality; I know they're wrong.

Thicker skins, people. You can't fight these things by making wild claims based on the fact that you're hurt because somebody you don't know doesn't like you for some arbitrary reason.

I was also trying to point out that most of this has to do with a political shift to the right in the U.S., and has nothing much to do with individuals at all. And that even if it did, it doesn't matter.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
[They hold that non-theists or homosexuals cannot be good enough citizens to be part of their mission. It's not overheated rhetoric.

You're changing the argument here; this isn't what you said before, which was indeed overheated. And, again: what do you care what they think? They're idiots if they think that, and why would anyone want to belong to such an organization?


quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
The BSA is an integral part of American culture. The assholes are held up as exemplary organizations of our culture. The activities of sons in the BSA was the main topic of conversation among the fathers at the local poker game last week. At the 4th of July town celebration, three groups did the opening ceremonies: the BSA, the VFW, and the American Legion. To the VFW's credit, they started allowing atheists to join in 2004. The American Legion and BSA both consider atheists second class citizens (the American Legion never admits that the plaintiffs in the Mt. Soledad cross case are veterans but does allow them to join.)

Why should I find it acceptable to be considered a second-class citizen ?

It is not anything like an "integral part of American culture" any longer. That era is over; belonging to the BSA is today a choice that some people make - and not very many any longer.

Anyway, as you said, there are alternatives. Join one, and make it better than the BSA.

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TubaMirum
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(BTW, girls can't belong to the Boy Scouts, either.)
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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
[They hold that non-theists or homosexuals cannot be good enough citizens to be part of their mission. It's not overheated rhetoric.

You're changing the argument here; this isn't what you said before, which was indeed overheated.
No, I have merely substituted in their mission from their website.
quote:
It is not anything like an "integral part of American culture" any longer. That era is over; belonging to the BSA is today a choice that some people make - and not very many any longer.

Anyway, as you said, there are alternatives. Join one, and make it better than the BSA.

I'm guessing we are talking past each other. The large loss of membership the BSA is experiencing is at least partially due to the complaining and opposition they are receiving from these stances - such as this mini-topic.

While I was writing this, I got an email from MAAF (Military association of atheists & freethinkers):

quote:
One of our members held a MAAF meeting at his base here in Iraq and ended up being harassed and threatened with UCMJ action by a fundamentalist officer who posed as a "freethinker" in order to get in to the meeting. I forwarded the member's actual report to Jason, but I've done a sanitized write-up (deleted names and references to installations) on what happened for his protection because I expect this to make the rounds of the various interested parties. Here's the story I'm circulating:

Thought you'd be interested in this report of the first-ever meeting of Atheist service-members in Iraq under the umbrella of the MAAF-Iraq chapter of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers.

One of our members, a young Atheist enlisted soldier, thought he would like to see if he could generate some interest in MAAF meetings at his Forward Operating Base (FOB) here in Iraq (not the base I'm at, by the way). He got things coordinated and started hanging flyers, and after weeks of having to re-hang his flyers almost daily because some vandal kept tearing them down, he finally succeeded in having a small MAAF meeting. I wasn't there because the meeting wasn't on my FOB, but I knew he was holding it and was expecting to hear from him after the meeting. Keep in mind that this young soldier did everything right - he went through the Chaplain's office and jumped through all the hoops it takes to legally hold meetings that are religiously or philosophically based. Four soldiers attended this meeting - all of them very junior enlisted soldiers with the exception of one Major (an O-4), who claimed to be a "freethinker".

Well, to make a very long story a little shorter, the Major turned out to be a fundamentalist Christian who verbally berated the other attendees, accused them of plotting against Christians and disrespecting soldiers who have died protecting the Constitution, and threatened them with punishment under the UCMJ for their activities (said they were "going down") and said he would do whatever it took to shut the meetings down. Keep in mind that by this point, he had two of the attendees (one soldier fled when the shouting started) standing at the position of attention so that he could yell at them, berate them, and humiliate them. This apparently went on for several minutes at which time the Major shut down the meeting by saying he wasn't some "push-over Chaplain" and that he would not tolerate the meetings to continue.

The young MAAF member who hosted the meeting is absolutely freaked out about what happened, but he said he's going to continue with the meetings and isn't going to be bullied by the prayer warriors. I've advised him to immediately notify the Chaplain sponsor of what happened to get guidance while I try to figure out what to do next. I should hear something back from him tonight sometime and there's even a small possibility I might be able to score a mission to his FOB and attend one of his meetings in the next few weeks (if I do, I'll meet with the Chaplain in person).

As for immediate action, he's going to get me the names of his Chaplain sponsor and the name of the officer who disrupted the meeting. My intent right now is to make a formal report to the most senior Chaplain I can find along with possibly an Equal Opportunity complaint against the officer if we can get him fully identified. I may not be eligible to make that complaint because I wasn't there, but I can at least smooth the way for this young troop to make one if he elects to. At the very least, I can make the EO office formally aware of what happened there.

More info will follow when I get it, but right now, feel free to disseminate this information since I've intentionally sanitized it for names and locations. I will be happy to forward any words of support to him if they get mailed to my email address - he could really use some encouragement right now, I think.


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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
I'm guessing we are talking past each other. The large loss of membership the BSA is experiencing is at least partially due to the complaining and opposition they are receiving from these stances - such as this mini-topic.

No, it has been in steep decline - like every other civic organization - since the 1970s. People don't join things the way they used to - and when they do, they don't join the same organizations they used to.

The same thing happened to religion also. The fastest-growing segment of the population is the "unchurched" today. I suppose both declines - in church membership and in BSA membership - could be partly because of complaints about some of these issues, but it seems much more likely that it's because people don't want to belong to organizations that take the sorts of stances they do. In the case of religion, it's a reaction against the "religious" right's attempted takeover of the political system - and of course against the hysteria and irrationality of a lot of right-wing religious groups.

IOW, people are getting fed up on their own with the positions and actions of these organizations, and are just voting with their feet.

[ 02. August 2007, 15:33: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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TubaMirum
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In the case of the military, actions that exclude atheists are clearly illegal. I've heard, in fact, that the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs had become a de facto branch of Evangelical Christianity. Not just plain Christianity, or religion; but Evangelical Christianity in particular. And this was fairly well-known to be the case, too; open preferential treatment for Evangelicals over anybody else.

There are some court cases in the works on this right now, I think.

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(BTW, girls can't belong to the Boy Scouts, either.)

If the Girls Scouts renamed and opened up to boys, the whole thing would go away. I just need to talk them into it...
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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(BTW, girls can't belong to the Boy Scouts, either.)

If the Girls Scouts renamed and opened up to boys, the whole thing would go away. I just need to talk them into it...
[Razz]
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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
No, it has been in steep decline - like every other civic organization - since the 1970s. People don't join things the way they used to - and when they do, they don't join the same organizations they used to.

But when you compare the steepness of the declines, the BSA is even steeper than the others - or at least in the limited comparisons I looked at.
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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
No, it has been in steep decline - like every other civic organization - since the 1970s. People don't join things the way they used to - and when they do, they don't join the same organizations they used to.

But when you compare the steepness of the declines, the BSA is even steeper than the others - or at least in the limited comparisons I looked at.
Yeah, I haven't looked at those stats in particular.
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Dinghy Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
The BSA is no such thing. The BSA claims "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

Do we really have to go round in circles here? The scout oath includes doing one's duty to God and one's country.
So does the Girl Scout's oath. You just make that part of the oath optional. The military oath of enlistment includes an optional 'so help me God.' It wouldn't be like they had to reinvent the wheel.

I must be misunderstanding what you're saying.

The mission of the BSA is to <do certain stuff> by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Their vision statement is to "prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law". So making the oath optional would be to shift the BSA's focus as dramatically as if Christianity made the Nicene Creed optional.


As TubaMirium says, all this shows is that the BSA contain some exclusivist arseholes who don't want to get to know People who Aren't Like Them. This isn't new information, though. I already knew that arseholes existed in the world, and that there are plenty of arseholes who would think I was a twonk if they met me. So what? It doesn't offend me that the National Secular Society would think this; I know they're wrong and am happy for them to keep on having their wrong ideas in isolation, if they so please.

--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
The mission of the BSA is to <do certain stuff> by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Their vision statement is to "prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law". So making the oath optional would be to shift the BSA's focus as dramatically as if Christianity made the Nicene Creed optional.

So let me get this straight. If I complain about the National Motto or the Pledge of Allegiance or whatever, I should just STFU because it's only a word. If I complain about the Boy Scouts, I should just STFU because their motto contains certain words, and you can't just ignore or modify those.

quote:
As TubaMirium says, all this shows is that the BSA contain some exclusivist arseholes who don't want to get to know People who Aren't Like Them. This isn't new information, though. I already knew that arseholes existed in the world, and that there are plenty of arseholes who would think I was a twonk if they met me. So what? It doesn't offend me that the National Secular Society would think this; I know they're wrong and am happy for them to keep on having their wrong ideas in isolation, if they so please.
The National Secular Society would be analogous to a church or the Knights of Columbus. How in the world could you compare them to the BSA ?

If we are both agreed that the BSA national leadership are arseholes for taking the positions they've taken, what are we arguing about, anyway ?

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
....the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs had become a de facto branch of Evangelical Christianity. Not just plain Christianity, or religion; but Evangelical Christianity in particular.....

This evangelical military academy would have offended me greatly when I was a Christian!

Liberties, ie church and state seperation, matters to some of us PASSIONATELY. If someone wants to piss away their rights, feel free, but don't piss away mine while they're at it, thank them very much.

Regarding thick skin.

Some of us have incredibly thick skin thanks to the Ship, etc. and yet also fight the fights that we are presented with. I am one of the non-theists that can stand up and say "FUCK YOU" to whomever it may concern with regards to this issue, and I basically have. OTOH, I think that this persecution of atheists is bullshit and needs addressing everywhere its found for the atheists.nontheists that aren't able or willing for whatever reason (i.e persefuckingcution) to stand up and tell Christians (the ones that say stupid shit anyway) et al, that atheists are some lesser being and deserve to be chased out of their communities, or whatever else stupid shit "they" say.

If someone(s) here is taking this personally it's probably because many of the people here are HUMAN, and the last time I checked nobody liked being treated like shit. Telling them to "get a thicker skin" is so fucking unhelpful that it is only useful in showing the person saying it for what kind of person that THEY are. I will let THEM decide for themselves if perhaps they have thickened their skin so much that they are incapable of humanity and treating others with respect even when they disagree with them.

Not addressed to TM:

We have watched at least two or more supposed Christians on this thread be complete and utter bigoted assholes (NOT NAMING NAMES) so often that it is amazing to us atheist.nontheist folks off-thread. But I guess that just goes to show what atheists/nontheists have to put up with. It is SO ironic that the people screaming for "proof" the loudest are also the ones bashing the hardest.

It's not amazing at all come to think of it, it is just another proof of concept to what I and others are saying, to an outside observer/audience.

Do go on.

--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Beautiful Dreamer
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I wouldn't feel comfortable with likening any problems I have as a Christian (or an atheist, when I was one) to the problems suffered by nonwhites and gays, as some have here. The reason is this: When I was an atheist, I was one because I chose to be that way. I could have sought out religion if I wanted to, but I did not. When I became a Christian, it was by choice. Gays and nonwhites have no choice in the matter, so there is, IMO, no comparison to the problems someone has because of a choice they made, assuming they knew what they were getting into. And in my case, I did. If I hadn't, or if my faith were something I were born with, then I might see it differently. I can only speak for myself, so that is what I am doing. Your mileage may vary. I don't deny that things can be unpleasant for atheists in some situations, but I wouldn't compare their problems to those of other marginalized groups who had no choice in what they are.

--------------------
More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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I don't think atheists can choose to believe in God any more than a gay person can choose to be attracted to the opposite sex. They can cover it up about the same. This would mean being ashamed or even dishonest about who they were.

Still, I don't believe persecution of atheists is a wide spread phenomenon. Atheists potentially face discrimination. Most people do for some reason or another. In most cases, its illegal. Some Christians don't think very highly of atheists. Some atheists don't like Christians. The problem is that Christians find the most outspoken atheists obnoxious. If atheists want to be accepted by Christians, they should change that. Atheists have a right to equal protection under the law. They don't have the right to be liked or accepted.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by Beautiful_Dreamer:
The reason is this: When I was an atheist, I was one because I chose to be that way.

That's an amazing ability. I could not choose to be either a theist or an atheist any more than I could choose to believe Superman is real or my wife is fictional. All I could do is lie about my status, which I grant is pretty easy.
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J. J. Ramsey
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
So let me get this straight. If I complain about the National Motto or the Pledge of Allegiance or whatever, I should just STFU because it's only a word. If I complain about the Boy Scouts, I should just STFU because their motto contains certain words, and you can't just ignore or modify those.

Apples and oranges alert! The National Motto or the Pledge of Allegiance are on thin ice because they at the very least come dangerously close to conflicting with the founding document of the U.S., especially the establishment clause of the First Amendment. That's not a factor with the Boy Scouts.

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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
That's an amazing ability. I could not choose to be either a theist or an atheist any more than I could choose to believe Superman is real or my wife is fictional. All I could do is lie about my status, which I grant is pretty easy.

But obviously people change from one state to another, and fairly regularly. Atheists become believers and vice versa.

I did. She did. Even George says he did. So how do we explain that?

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I did. She did. Even George says he did. So how do we explain that?

I'm guessing either:

A) Changed such that the same data led you to conclude theism

or

B) Acquired new data that led you to conclude theism

or some combination of the two. If you can choose your conclusions at will, you can do something I cannot.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I did. She did. Even George says he did. So how do we explain that?

I'm guessing either:

A) Changed such that the same data led you to conclude theism

or
B) Acquired new data that led you to conclude theism

or some combination of the two. If you can choose your conclusions at will, you can do something I cannot.

Well, I do think there is some "choosing" involved in some cases, actually. People with one mindset have to make a conscious choice to take seriously the other viewpoint. Sometimes it comes as "revelation" - the "aha!" moment - but most of the time it's a choice.

I had to do that in A.A. - and so do most others. People in trouble often have to choose to give up their previous point of view in order to get out of the trouble - and that's a choice.

And it would also be a choice, if you're a believer, to pay attention to whatever doubts you might have and to accept that God might not exist, and think about what that might mean.

Probably there are just some who don't believe and never will - or, on the other side, some who do believe and never won't. But I'd think they're in the minority, actually; I bet most people are potential switchers. That's just a guess, though.

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TubaMirum
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This guy has some interesting things to say along those lines, actually. He's a serious conservative and a long-time homo-hater, but I've always liked his writing.

Anyway, he's going through some interesting changes. Thought you might like to read it.

[ 03. August 2007, 02:44: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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mousethief

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If somebody forms a society for left-handed men named Phil, would right-handers or left-handed men named Bert complain they were being unfairly treated? Must every private group be open to any person? Why? Why can't left-handed men named Phil have their silly little organization?

Similarly the Boy Scouts are for people who can promise to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Clean, and Reverent, and who promise on their honor to do their duty to God and Country (among other things). While one could defintely argue that there's no reason a gay boy couldn't promise to be all those things, but surely an atheist could not.

The criteria for membership isn't saying that atheists are worse than theists, or that only theists can be good citizens, or anything of the sort, although I suppose people in the group could say that, but they would be going beyond their remit. But merely for exclusing atheists? The God Thing is just part of what the group is about. It may be petty-minded, it may be absurd, but it's their right to gather based on criteria of their own choosing, however arbitrary or foolish people outside the group may think them.

So what's the problem, really, with a group that wants to weave theism into their raison d'etre? Who the hell gives a fuck, and if they do, why?

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
And it would also be a choice, if you're a believer, to pay attention to whatever doubts you might have and to accept that God might not exist, and think about what that might mean.

Oh, sure, I agree with that. But if you pay attention to whatever doubts, etc., and you still believe, can you choose to believe otherwise ?

quote:
Probably there are just some who don't believe and never will - or, on the other side, some who do believe and never won't. But I'd think they're in the minority, actually; I bet most people are potential switchers. That's just a guess, though.
Potential switching is not the same thing as being able to choose. My dog has been both non-neutered and neutered at different times in his life and did not choose.

In any case, I have become convinced some people can choose what they believe. Interestingly, only theists have convinced me. I can't choose what I believe.

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
So what's the problem, really, with a group that wants to weave theism into their raison d'etre? Who the hell gives a fuck, and if they do, why?

Those of us who are not theists and want our kids to have fun and be a part of the community ? Perhaps be eligible for being honored by the local government for attaining Eagle status, etc. ? Participate in the government funded Boy Scout Jamboree ?

Should I stop criticizing the group and opposing its policies ? Why ?

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mousethief

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Because it's stupid? No reason why atheists can't make their own organization for their kids to have fun in. Why bust down somebody else's door? It's like stupid people wanting to join Mensa. They're doubly stupid.

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Because it's stupid? No reason why atheists can't make their own organization for their kids to have fun in. Why bust down somebody else's door? It's like stupid people wanting to join Mensa. They're doubly stupid.

But we are doing both. Camp Quest was started in response to this and Campfire Boys and Girls clubs have gotten more support.

It is nothing like stupid people wanting to join Mensa. Theism is not an integral part of scouting, no matter how many times people point me at the scout oath. The other scouting organizations worldwide that also have such oaths and don't discriminate have shown that.

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mousethief

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It's not intrinsic to camping or playing steal-the-bacon or any number of things, no. If that's all Scouts is, then it would be absurd for them to exclude atheists or girls or whatever. Clearly some people think there's more to it than that. They wound God into both their Law and their Oath, long before there was anything like a vocal atheist minority. Do you think they did it just to keep those evil icky bad atheists at bay? Or maybe it really meant something to them? No, couldn't be that.

All you've shown is that there can be groups that don't have a theistic belief structure that do many of the same things as the Boy Scouts do. I don't think Scouting USA (or whatever the UK equivalent is called) would gainsay you. But that's not the point.

[ 03. August 2007, 03:33: Message edited by: MouseThief ]

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Because it's stupid? No reason why atheists can't make their own organization for their kids to have fun in. Why bust down somebody else's door? It's like stupid people wanting to join Mensa. They're doubly stupid.

Perhaps because people do draw arbitrary lines around things. It's not okay for men to banish women from "their own" jobs. It's not okay for whites to banish blacks from "their own organizaiton" and yes, it's not okay for Boy Scouts to banish Atheists and Homosexuals from their own organization.

Quite frankly I'm not sure it's okay for Mensa to ban anyone either, although I can't imagine why anyone, no matter how smart, would want to join them anyway. But maybe I'm just not that much of a smart arrogant fuck (shoot away).

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benjdm
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How rude of me to complain. Why should I complain about not being able to be a part of things such as:

quote:
Great to see so many teenagers still enjoying Scouting, and having fun at the Jamboree.
quote:
I cannot speak highly enough of my time in Sea Scouts. It accompanied me through the worst "growing up" years, and taught me leadership, the value of earning trust, skills in electricity, plumbing, carpentry and many other things, as well as a love of the sea. I can't recommend it highly enough.
Posted by you, no less!!!!

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008010#000009
(found by searching for 'boy scouts' in subforum 'Heaven.') Could you point me out the part of the thread where theism was an integral part of anyone's experiences ? I can't find it.

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mousethief

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Ah, that thread exhausts everything there is to say about scouting, does it?

Truth be told for much of the time I was a boy scout, I was an atheist. Which I think I've already said on this thread. They never tossed me out, even when I complained about the benediction prayer the scoutmaster ended a campfire "service" (iykwim) with. ("What about people who don't believe in God?" I naively asked. "How can you not believe in God?" he asked. That was it.)

Every summer camp I went to had a "chapel" -- a clearing in the woods with benches, where an older scout held vaguely non-denominational "services". In point of fact few people went. I went in part out of curiosity (are there religious people that aren't complete obnoxious jerks?) and partly to be a pain in the ass. And the "service" consisted in loose chatter, the only part of which I recall was my being told how obnoxiously Christian the Chronicles of Narnia were, and how instead I should read the Lord of the Rings. (Which I went and did when I got home!) It never up to that time occurred to me that Narnia was obnoxiously Christian, because I didn't know a whole lot about Christianity.

When I was in Sea Scouts at a Regatta (rough equivalent of a Jamboree), they demanded that everyone be in the chapel service on Sunday morning (it was at a Navy base). A handful of us begged out because, as we said, we had our own religion. And we spent the time poking fun at religion and religious people. And we still weren't kicked out.

Was I a hypocrite, then? Probably. Was I perjuring myself when I said the oath and recited the law? Yeah, probably. Did I care? Nah, it never even occurred to me then. But at no time did anybody give me a test to ensure my religious leanings, or was I ever asked point-blank what my beliefs were. And being that they're a private organisation, I just don't see why they can't have all this religious stuff if they want it. I'm glad they didn't kick me out, because I gained a lot from it. If they had, I would have found somewhere else to gain a lot (and been even more bitter about religion for a longer time than I was anyway).

So are things different where you are? Do you have to present your child's baptismal certificate for them to enroll? Are you afraid that your child will perjure himself, or worse, actually start to believe that crap? Tired of being a stealth atheist and want to scream it from the rooftops? Why tilt at this particular windmill?

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benjdm
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
So are things different where you are? Do you have to present your child's baptismal certificate for them to enroll? Are you afraid that your child will perjure himself, or worse, actually start to believe that crap? Tired of being a stealth atheist and want to scream it from the rooftops?

I only have girls, so this is not a personal issue for me. But since I organize a local atheist meetup group (is that shouting it from the rooftops ?) there would be no stealth. Also, my understanding is for Cub Scouts it is not the child making the religious declaration but the parent.

I was also a Boy Scout while I was an atheist - I lied about the topic all the time as a kid.
quote:
Why tilt at this particular windmill?
It is both a reflection and a contributing factor of the culture that says I am not to be considered a member. They spin me up to no end.
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Socratic-enigma
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Why tilt at this particular windmill?
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
It is both a reflection and a contributing factor of the culture that says I am not to be considered a member. They spin me up to no end.


There was some kerfuffle in the early nineties, when our newly installed Governor-General (Queen's rep. and Head of State - and nominal patron of the 'Boy Scouts of Australia') reiterated that he was an atheist.

Sacre Bleu! This resulted in hasty scrambling to find a suitable replacement patron until the 'born-to-rule' Conservatives (Liberal Party) were returned to office and duly appointed a suitable God-fearing man to the position.

Whils't in Australia, being an atheist is not generally a disadvantage (we even had an atheist Prime-Minister in the 80s), there has of late, been a disturbing resurgence in religiosity - facillitated to some degree by American Charismatic/Pentacostal/Conservative/Evangelicals (and their local clones) who particularly target the young.

Our current crop of pollies have been clambering over each other to demonstrate their personal religious fervour - which previously would have been considered distinctly unAustralian.

Many of us find this disturbing.

I also think it might be useful to distinguish between atheist and non-believer (although I realise they're technically the same).

To me an atheist, is someone who has considered the merits of religion, and found them incompatible with their world view - conversion is not a possibility.

One may be a non-believer through ignorance, rebellion or simply through experiencing periods of extreme doubt - but it does not (in my personal view) make you an atheist.

TM,
Thanks for the excellent article - I'm sending it to some of my (Christian) friends.

S-E

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
No reason why atheists can't make their own organization for their kids to have fun in. Why bust down somebody else's door? It's like stupid people wanting to join Mensa. They're doubly stupid.

I don’t wish to be part of the Scouts movement myself, so it might seem fair of you to question why I’m complaining about being ineligible to join.

But there’s a very important principle here at stake. To be discriminated against as unsuitable for membership of a group on the basis of personal beliefs is unacceptable, in this day and age. I’m quite sure you appreciate this.

If Christians were excluded from my Golf Club on the basis of their religion, it would not matter one jot if it happened to be written into the Club constitution. You would consider it wrong in principle to be discriminated against on that basis.

What the BSA is doing is discrimination. To condone it, implicitly or otherwise, is worse.

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
No reason why atheists can't make their own organization for their kids to have fun in. Why bust down somebody else's door? It's like stupid people wanting to join Mensa. They're doubly stupid.

I don’t wish to be part of the Scouts movement myself, so it might seem fair of you to question why I’m complaining about being ineligible to join.

But there’s a very important principle here at stake. To be discriminated against as unsuitable for membership of a group on the basis of personal beliefs is unacceptable, in this day and age. I’m quite sure you appreciate this.

Not if the group being joined has those beliefs as a core part of what it's about. So it's ok for a church to insist on only baptised people on the PCC, but not for a golf club to refuse to accept Christians, because a Church is about religious beliefs in a way that a golf club is not. The difficulty with the Scouts is that it is perceived as secular from the outside, but sees itself has having a strong spiritual dimension. Thus outsiders think that it is strange/wrong that they should exclude atheists but inside it the line about `duty to God' isn't just an optional extra but a key part of it.

I was surprised to find that the Scouts in the UK make it clear that they do not regard themselves as open to atheists because I'd always thought of them as secular. This reflects the situation where I grew up where our church had brownies/guides and boys brigade who had termly church parades. The Scout troups were not church sponsored and only turned up for Remembrance Day and possibly St George's Day. However, looking at their resources, I see that faith stuff is potentially a strong part of what they do. There are factsheets about faith here

From the first of them

quote:
The Scout Association is an open organisation and its membership is drawn from a variety of religious backgrounds all of whom make a Promise to 'do their Duty to God.' Although many Members have little or no contact with religion they fully support the values of The Scout Movement. Scouting works in partnership with religious communities to help its Members develop their understanding of God. Chaplains/Advisers have a very important role to play in this partnership. We hope that this pack will be a starting point for all those undertaking these important
I think comments or implications that atheists can't be good citizens are wrong, but I don't think that that means that they have to let them in. I don't think there should be a witch-hunt either. I'd be inclined to take the line that if they're prepared to say the oath (with its reference to God) that that's good enough. I think that's where the BSA have gone too far. This appears to be a shift in recent times given that Mousethief's experience was of the sort I would expect.

Excluding people on their sexuality is definitely wrong. And I'm very pleased to find that in the UK this is made clear. I just searched their factsheets for sexuality and found a document headed 'it's OK to be Gay and a Scout.

Carys

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seasick

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As someone who was a scout, I can't say that it was my experience that faith was an important part of it. On normal evening meetings I don't think there was any 'religious' stuff at all. If we were on camp and it was Sunday then there would be a Scouts' Own service, but that was school assembly religion really. Annual carol service, remembrance day and St George's day services if you bothered to turn up for them (which most people didn't). We certainly had no chaplains or advisers.

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
The Scout Association is an open organisation and its membership is drawn from a variety of religious backgrounds all of whom make a Promise to 'do their Duty to God.' Although many Members have little or no contact with religion they fully support the values of The Scout Movement. Scouting works in partnership with religious communities to help its Members develop their understanding of God. Chaplains/Advisers have a very important role to play in this partnership. We hope that this pack will be a starting point for all those undertaking these important

You'd think the kids of atheist parents would be the first on their list of most desirable applicants, if the above truly represents their raison d'être! Think about it.

Certainly, it seems a very weak justification for exclusive discrimination, ISTM.

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TubaMirum
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Well, I certainly hope the BSA ends their unjust discrimination against girls very soon.

It's really not any different, you know; if it is, please explain how. I think the BSA is being stupid, but it's certainly within their rights to be stupid. And if you want to be consistent you'll have to argue against the "no-girls" policy too. Are you prepared to do that?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
If Christians were excluded from my Golf Club on the basis of their religion, it would not matter one jot if it happened to be written into the Club constitution. You would consider it wrong in principle to be discriminated against on that basis.

If belonging to the golf club were necessary to, say, get a job with city government, or the golf club were a municipally owned one, then yes I would consider it wrong because of my very strong belief in the separation clause.

And certainly I might resent it very much (hopefully not in a petulant way), especially if I had a golf Jones and this was the only course within a day's drive.

But I don't consider it wrong on principle for a private group to have bizarre membership criteria. That's just part of the right of peaceful assembly. Certainly in terms of evangelism (or neutralangelism for atheists?) it seems counterproductive. Although evangelism is not always a prime consideration. And if the internet is a decent representation, as a Christian I would find it very difficult to be the only believer in a group of atheists, having a particularly strong attachment to my bowels, and liking to keep them both whole and inside my body.

Which immediately raises the question of groups that want to keep out blacks or Jews or disabled people, which I do consider wrong on principle. Making me either hypocritical or wishy-washy depending on how charitable one is feeling.

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
....Which immediately raises the question of groups that want to keep out blacks or Jews or disabled people, which I do consider wrong on principle. Making me either hypocritical or wishy-washy depending on how charitable one is feeling.

Herein lies the rub, and thanks for your honesty!

I don't think you are hypocritical or wishy washy, these things are not clear, and it definitely depends on how society draws these often arbitrary distinctions. If you are a member of the persecuted class, of course you want to have your side be allowed to be put "in". And if you are a member of the non-persecuted class, or worse, the persecuting class then you would desire for the persecuted class to be "out".

It is here that the irony of Christians and exclusivity abounds IMO. They want to be loving and neighborly and all that, but not to atheists, or not to gays, or whatever. You can tell a people by their exclusivities.

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TubaMirum
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Anybody on the girls thing? Anybody at all?

Or are you all just going to continue to persecute us?

[ 03. August 2007, 15:20: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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TubaMirum
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(Yeah. Thought not.)
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Mad Geo

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Geez,

Give us a minute to post already.

I have no problem with the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts merging into one Scouts entity. None whatsoever. As long as they accept girl and boy atheists and gays, it's all good.

[ 03. August 2007, 15:28: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]

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Mad Geo

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[Killing me]

This is timely.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Mad Geo

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Oh my there is more.....

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