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Originally posted by Pancho:
He is usually shown in a scene from a famous legend of his, a Roman soldier astride his horse and giving part of his cloak to a beggar, as in this painting by El Greco .

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Originally posted by Eddy:
In what sense,, Michael the 'proper place' - because thats where the books say it has to be, like the Missal does?

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In his First Apology St Justin Martyr wrote:
On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray. (my emphasis).
Link

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I think the ROCOR cathedral in New York is Our Lady of the Sign, but that might be a paraphrase rather than a direct translation of the Russian. I don't know.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
My point about 'Our Lady of Fatima' Eastern Catholic church was not about 'Our Lady of...' titles in Eastern Orthodox churches, but more about 'Our Lady of...(a leading Western Catholic shrine)...'. I'd thought that it would be unusual to have say, a Greek Orthodox Church dedicated in honor of 'Our Lady of Lourdes.'

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Originally posted by Angloid:
The Liturgy was seriously weird though (by Western standards: I'm not being disparaging) and interminable, so I left soon after what appeared to have been the Gospel. Otherwise I might have MWd it.

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See, this is just a bad witness. We already think you guys are spiritual lightweights. You just can't go around confirming our suspicions like this!

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Originally posted by mousethief:
We already think you guys are spiritual lightweights.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I can't speak for the Eastern Catholics. The Orthodox celebrate Ascension as one of the Twelve Great Feasts, 40 days (always a Thursday) after Easter. We don't move festivals to Sundays. The only moving to speak of gets done when the Annunciation (a fixed feast) falls on one of the moveable feasts/fasts of Lent or Holy Week or Pascha. And that's so complicated I'm content to let the bigwigs figure it out.

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the oldest liturgy in the Christian Church: the Liturgy of Saint James the Apostle, historically referred to as the Liturgy of Mar Mari and Mar Addai. It contains three different Canons which are utilised during the yearly calendar

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Mostly true. But if the Annunciation falls in Holy Week, especially Good Friday, all Hell breaks loose.

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There is a relatively new additional volume to The Order of Divine Services detailing how to construct the services for various Saints and feasts throughout the year in some considerable detail. For all of the days it includes that can possibly fall in the season of the Triodion or the Pentecostarion, this volume also gives the variations that would apply in each case. It really is meticulous. I note with a smile that any mention of the Annunciation is entirely absent from the book. I can only imagine that the compilers probably took one look at it and gave up before they even started.

My memory suggests, though, that malik3000 is right about the Annunciation not being transferred (it coincided with Holy Saturday 2 or 3 yers ago and I have a translation of a very lovely reflection written by Fr Sergei Bulgakov for when it collides with Great Friday). The complexities come more from practical questions of how to combine it with the moveable observances.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Originally posted by Eddy:
The liturgy of the Eastern Catholic Church described here says the Eastern Catholic church uses:

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Throughout its long history, the Church has remained orthodox and patriarchal (in its worship, ecclesiastical form of government, polity, etc. not Papal (not under the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church , the Patriarch of the West in Rome). This jurisdiction remains autocephalous (self-governing) to this day.

In 1902, the Metropolitan of India, with the encouragement of the Anglican Church missionaries from England, desired to bring this ancient church heritage into the west. A metropolitan was consecrated to do so. Through these efforts, in 1934, the Eastern Catholic Church came to these United States in the ministry of His Beatitude, Metropolitan Dr. Mar David of Edessa, O.H.S. (nee: Seine Durchlaucht, Prinz Stanislaus, Graf von Czernowitz). The present Metropolitan is His Beatitude, Metropolitan Dr. Mar Mikhael of Edessa, O.S.J. (Seine Durchlaucht, Fürst Heinrich XXVI Reuß).

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Mostly true. But if the Annunciation falls in Holy Week, especially Good Friday, all Hell breaks loose.

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Originally posted by Forthview:
( and yes in certain circumstances the priests are allowed to marry)

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Originally posted by Eddy:
I don't really get it with this 'Greek Catholic Church in Italy'. Like the Eastern Catholic churches have an Orthodox parallel is the parallel of this one the Greek orthodox church or what?

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It cant be because dont the Greek Catholics have there own Patriarch

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and Forthview says these ones relate direct to the Holy Father.

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Southern Italy and Sicily had a strong connection with Greece in antiquity and for many centuries there was a large Greek-speaking population there. In the early centuries of the Christian era, although most of the Christians were of the Byzantine tradition, the area was included in the Roman Patriarchate, and a gradual but incomplete process of latinization began.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
It seems v strange to me;

They are in Italy, they can use the Western rite, their priests can marry.

So can there be another RC church in a town using the Western rite but their priests can't marry.

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How can the faithful tell them apart.

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Originally posted by Forthview:
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When I take Italians to a Church of Scotland they often ask me (that is of course those who are interested ) Che rito e ? (What rite is followed here ?) Even Italians not particularly interested in religion - the great majority - know that there are different rites which are used in the Church.

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I wonder if the average Latin Catholic could get a handle on the bare simplicity of much Church of Scotland worship?

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I wonder if the average Latin Catholic could get a handle on the bare simplicity of much Church of Scotland worship?

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A Catholic Mass can be quite plain and simple, and in the case of Italy it very often is. I'm not sure about the liturgy at St. Giles, but if it follows a standard Western pattern I would anticipate that the average Italian tourist would find it quite familiar to a simple parish church in Italy, but quite more musically-appealing, and quite a bit longer!

My own Lutheran church has more elaborate liturgy than the Roman Catholic Church, IMHO. We end up singing offertory verses, and up until recently we almost always sang a post-communion canticle (such as Nunc Dimittis). It is also relatively rare for Lutheran churches to do the Psalm cheat--with the people only saying/singing a refrain. Typically we all participate in the verses in one way or another.

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There are places like the Cathedral in Milan where they do a good Ambrosian Rite (the indigenous one).

Italians have feeling and a sense of drama. Scots, well middle class Edinburgh ones from places like Colinton & Morningside, tend to be somewhat 'emotionally restrained' (That's putting it politely! ) and are very much into preaching (sometimes overlong).

Personally I have had no contact with Lutheran liturgy (I once knew a beautiful girl from Aachen, though, but this is definitely not the place ).

Seriously, John Foster, a beloved and sadly departed university tutor, whose field was Modern German History, told me (bear in mind we are talking late 1960s/early 1970s here) that there was what he called 'a sort of High Church Lutheranism which was very much like Low Church Anglicanism). The traditional Low Church Anglicans (pretty much extinct in Oz & the US of A I believe) were into very measured ceremonial (a bit like German pietists).

Bear in mind we were traditionally an English culture with heavy Irish overtones. Our Lutherans were primarily of German origin. I think many in the USA were of Scandinavian descent. So you would know everything and I nothing of Lutheran worship in the USA and so am grateful for what you said.

I also suspect American Lutheranism, like American Anglicanism, has changed from that in its countries of origin.

American Methodism seems 'higher church' than Oz/British Uniting Church/Methodism.

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Originally posted by Angloid:
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Slight tangent... someone mentioned Western-looking 'wedding cake' altars. Last Sunday I was in the Armenian Patriarchate church in Istanbul, which certainly had one. The whole church looked rather like a baroque-i-fied Wren church (think St Magnus the Martyr, with fewer statues). The Liturgy was seriously weird though (by Western standards: I'm not being disparaging) and interminable, so I left soon after what appeared to have been the Gospel. Otherwise I might have MWd it.

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Originally posted by Martin L:
I don't know if there has been a pope yet who could speak Syriac or Aramaic let alone use them liturgically.

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I'd imagine there have been several. If you subscribe to the strange theory that Simon Peter was the first Pope you can start with him Probably none for over 1500 years or so though.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I have had the pleasure to read a book (Calmness) by HH Pope Shenouda III and it was fabulous. I'm admittedly no expert in holiness but this book gave me the impression that he is indeed a very holy man.

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From the font of all knowledge and wisdom:
Despite the potentially confusing nomenclature (Oriental meaning eastern), Oriental Orthodox churches are distinct from those that are collectively referred to as the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Syriac Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[2] These six churches, while being in communion with each other, are hierarchically independent.

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From Encyclopedia Coptica:
There are three main Liturgies in the Coptic Church: The Liturgy according to Saint Basil, Bishop of Caesarea; The Liturgy according to Saint Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of Constantinople; and The Liturgy according to Saint Cyril I, the 24th Pope of the Coptic Church. The bulk of Saint Cyril's Liturgy is from the one that Saint Mark used (in Greek) in the first century. It was memorized by the Bishops and priests of the church till it was translated into the Coptic Language by Saint Cyril. Today, these three Liturgies, with some added sections (e.g. the intercessions), are still in use; the Liturgy of Saint Basil is the one most commonly used in the Coptic Orthodox Church.

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The Coptic church I understand isn't an official Orthodox church. Some of its teachings are different.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
In the case of the Eastern Catholic Churches (those in Communion with the Holy Father), do they use the same rites as their equivalent Orthodox or Oriental church.

So in that fascinating bit Mousethief quotes about the Coptic Orthodox church is the Eastern Catholic church using the same three liturgies in that way?

Churches, of cause, are not just about liturgy. I guess, but have no real knowledge on this, that the Eastern Catholics and eastern Orthodox may differ on some ethical or moral teaching, as I guess the Orthodox Church and the RC Church are not always eye to eye on these things.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Thank you Pancho, for that. I did suspect that it would be difficult to get the low down on whether the Coptic Catholics use the liturgies in the same way.[/URL]

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Thank you Pancho, for that. I did suspect that it would be difficult to get the low down on whether the Coptic Catholics use the liturgies in the same way.

This Coptic Church is the Evangelical Coptic Church, and the mind boggles...just as their are Eastern Catholic versions of the Orthodox churches are their Protestant / Evangelical equivalents as well.

This is an Armenian Evangelical Church. And here too.

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